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Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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Comments

  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Well Fangio, it is obvious that NOT on your list were quality, quality, quality and safety, safety, safety. ; )
  • marinersmariners Member Posts: 23
    Your car shopping sounds like "The Weakest Link".. :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I don't know about that, I don't watch the show (saw two minutes of it once and that was enough for me). The "pusher/blocker" system is actually a proven technique for aiding purchase decisions. I learned it in a class I took for my job a few years ago. If I could remember the company that offered the class, I'd provide it for due credit--but I don't. The idea is to quickly eliminate choices that don't meet the mandatory criteria, then focus the evaluation on the "pusher" criteria for the remaining choices. I don't think this approach is all that unusual; I'll bet many people do this unconsciously when making major decisions.
  • bjfrank42bjfrank42 Member Posts: 51
    1.Value - Most car for the money
    2.Comfort - I'm 6'3". Wife is 5'11"
    3.Warranty - I keep a car for a long time

    Kia Sephia
  • bjfrank42bjfrank42 Member Posts: 51
    Many months ago I made the comment that I believed Toyota and Mazda owners spent more money on maintenance that American car owners and that was why their quality ratings were usually higher. Toyota and Mazda owners paid on the front end and American owner paid on the rear end. You disagreed with me, wanting to know what it was the my friends were actually having done to their cars. I think you made my point on the Echo board. You paid $159 for a 15k checkup. My Sephia 15k checkup was $40 and I thought that was excessive.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I stand corrected. I wish I could remember how much I paid for the 15k maintenance on my '93 Escort, but that was 135k miles ago.

    During the first two years of my ownership, the Escort was actually a leased vehicle and I was very religious about following the manufacturer's recommendations for service.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I really don't like the Weakest Link, but I did catch a couple of celebrity editions. Anne Robinson (the host) is known for not smiling, but the comedian Carrot Top actually had her laughing in her reserved British way.

    He said something that I am not sure I can repeat, but the result was Ms. Robinson resting her chin on her chest to try to hide the smile that had crept across her face.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Backy, that seems like an excellent way to make a decision.

    I will suggest my roommate use it when she goes to look at cars. It looks like she will have a long list of cars to whittle down.

    And all the cars will be treated the same with none excluded right off the bat due to past performance.

    What this means is that she will look at the current crop of cars from all makers and this includes the Koreans.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I am not one who intends to trade my car in after a year or two, but it is nice to know that your car holds its value.

    A 2001 Kia Sephia LS equipped comparable to my 2001 Toyota Echo would sticker for not much less money.

    Now, if I made the same deal for a Sephia as I did for my Echo and I sold the Sephia to a private party tomorrow, I would be a couple of thousand dollars upside down.

    If I sold my Echo to a private party tomorrow, I would not be upside down.

    The Sephia is definitely not a car you want to pay full sticker for.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    The cost (and quality) of maintenance might have to do with a car's reliability, but it would have nothing to do with initial quality.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    that we all love the most. Correct, major-Kia's delicious Sephia. Whoops-now it's called the Kia Spectra sedan. Best looking, best warranty, best intial quality, best performance and cheapest to maintain. I'm glad we had this little conversation. Did I mention the BEST small SUV? Thanks for asking. Kia's Sportage. Who's going to win the World Series? Seattle's Mariners no less.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • fangio2fangio2 Member Posts: 214
    What sinister motive is behind this poll?What does Randy know?Hopefully us unsuspecting participants aren't being used as pawns in a zoom zoom conspiracy.
  • bjfrank42bjfrank42 Member Posts: 51
    We all brag about how great our cars are. Let's be honest and tell about any problems we have had or anything we would change on our cars if we could. Again let's be honest, everyone has something they don't like with their car.

    2000 Kia Sephia

    1. Clock kept reseting. Had it replaced.
    2. I agree with Major. I would change the tail lights.
    3. Gas pedal could be moved to the right a little.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    My Echo has suffered paint chipping more than I would like, but then when you can hear something "pinging" (not the actual sound) off your hood than I guess chips are to be expected.

    Toyota upgraded the child seat tether anchor, but I was not having a problem with it. It passed government tests, but Toyota wanted it to be better so they upgraded it.

    15k miles plus and only in the shop for routine maintenance. I do not count the upgrade work as an extra visit since it was done the same time as routine maintenance and it was not something I complained about.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    No, we can't agree that the new Spectra is the best and we can't agree that your Sportage is the best either.

    We can't because I don't think that either one is true.

    Hopefully, your predictions of your Sportage being reliable are better than your predictions of the Mariners having an easy time winning the World Series. Not saying they won't reach the World Series and win it. I am just saying that having to go the full five games to just get to the ALCS is not having an easy time.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Here's the problems I've had with my '01 Elantra GLS since taking delivery almost one year ago:

    1. Three out of eight plastic screw-hole covers fell off the armrests in sub-zero weather last winter.
    2. At 6500 miles (11 months), a high-idle problem developed; it's not a big deal but a nuisance. It seems to be a little better now but my dealer tells me there is a software upgrade coming for the engine computer to fix it.
    3. In the past week a minor rattle has developed from the dash/windshield area. It may be due to a trim strip (the black one that runs from the cowl to the rear window along both sides of the roof) that was replaced due to hail damage, and the body shop did not have the fasteners they needed, so it's not properly latched down. I'll know when I get the fasteners installed.

    That's it. Not bad for one of the first samples of a new design, I think. In the "what would I improve if I could" category, here's my wish list (already given to Hyundai in the comprehensive survey they sent me several months ago); I've included only things that are realistic to expect on a $12,000 econocar:

    1. Different color on beige interior fabric. I call the color "puke brown".
    2. A tad smoother shifter. The 5spd is pretty good, but not quite as smooth as a couple of Civics I've owned.
    3. Thicker paint.
    4. Less expensive all-in-one radio/cassette/CD upgrade.
    5. More rigid rear seat belt buckles, so the belts can be put on with one hand.
    6. A shutoff switch for the center vents that keeps them shut. The only way to shut them down completely is to use the Recirculate button, which resets to off when you turn off the engine.
    7. A power trunk release and panic button on the remote keyfob.
    8. A rear-seat cupholder (like the slide-out unit that Elantras in other lands get).
    9. Fog lights available as a dealer-installed option (at a reasonable price).
    10. The rear ashtray colored the same as the console (tan), instead of black.
    11. Larger coat hooks.
    12. Rear windows that roll all the way down.

    Kind of a long list, but most of these are nits, and the list of things I like about the car is much longer.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Did you make sure that you don't have something stuck in a cubby somewhere that is making the rattle?

    I thought my Echo had developed a rattle last night. It turned out to be the empty plastic pop bottle I had in one of the cupholders.

    This is not really a complaint against Toyota, but had I to do it over again, I would have gotten an Echo without the rear spoiler. No problems with it. I have just changed my mind as to which way I like better.

    I would make ABS, side air bags, and the power windows a little easier to get. From what I understand Echoes with those options are almost impossible to find.

    Almost time for lunch.
  • coolguyky7coolguyky7 Member Posts: 932
    Not to point fingers, but someone posting on this board acts like an immature child claiming, "My car company is better than anyone and anything in everything from style to quality." It's all just a bunch of rhetoric and should not be regarded as truth, just opinion...an outrageous one at that.
  • coolguyky7coolguyky7 Member Posts: 932
    I'll give you a hint. It's neither you nor Major. I wonder who it could be?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Nope, nothing loose in the car causing the rattle. First place I check when I hear a rattle from the dash is the glove box (and sunglasses holder). It does seem to be coming from the upper dash or windshield, which is why I will suspect the metal trim strip until I get it latched down. The dealer said it may be related somehow to the high-idle condition, but I don't see how since they claim that's a software problem. I suspect they just didn't feel like spending a lot of time on a rattle. Oh well, it doesn't happen very often. But given the overall quietness of the car, it's annoying.
  • marinersmariners Member Posts: 23
    In that case, I will act like a baby also.

    My Toyota is the best car in the world its so reliable and it drives like a sports car with the kids in the back seat.
  • fangio2fangio2 Member Posts: 214
    Where can I get one?One question,though-the kids are an option,right?
  • marinersmariners Member Posts: 23
    yikes! the kids come standard! the only problem is that the kids whine and kick and cry in the back seat. very annoying.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    According to Edmunds.com's editors, the 2002 Elantra GLS is their Most Wanted Economy Car (under $13,000). Focus ZX3 got honorable mention. Protege took honorable mention in the under $20,000 category, under the Jetta. Those editors really seem to like their long-term Elantra tester, based on their monthly reports.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    When it comes to the Echo, Edmunds makes cracks about safety, but you sure don't see Edmunds mention anything about safety when it comes to the winner and runner up in their Under $13,000 most wanted category.

    And the facts are that the Elantra GLS received a poor in the IIHS test and the Focus ZX3 got one star for protecting the rear passenger in a side impact crash.

    Now you cannot compare the results of the Echo in the first case because the IIHS has not run tests yet, but you can compare the results of the Echo in the second case and the Echo did markedly better.

    Given the award winners in this category, I guess Edmunds doesn't really care about safety.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    keep your little motorcar between the white lines, 'ya know? Attention to these safety reports is like listening to color commentators on sports games shown on TV. "Ya know, Dan, Bill Powerhouse always did take the hard line. I remember a story that goes back to his days at USC." The color commentators drones on and on about some dumb story from this athlete's past. Meanwhile, two good pitches have come in. The lead announcer has stated whether they were balls and strikes. You're watching this and thinking to yourself "Do I really need to know this information?" I'd really rather just watch the baseball game. Safety stats are just that. Stats. No, stats are not boring. In fact, I find them interesting. Safety in an automobile starts with the person driving the car. If you drive a car considered "safe" by the experts and drive like a selfish moron on the road, it doesn't matter how "safe" somebody else considers your vehicle to be. As for the 2001 Kia Sportage 4x4 I drive-safety is there all around me. A great job of putting the driver up higher coupled with the extra-sturdy door framing and a bit more door-sealing has given the Sportage a quiet and delicious driving experience. Question-does anyone else notice a sharp decline in signaling your intention to change lanes on the freeways you drive most often? I'm curious about you guys. I have definitely noticed this in the last year or so getting worse. Much worse. I don't know if it's laziness or being afraid the driver behind will speed up and not let them in. That's one explanation I got about the increasing number of Claifornia drivers on our roads in Washington state. It's a California thing. Thet play a game down there(because of road-rage onset)where they just quickly change lanes before the guy in the lane they want to go into can speed up and block them. Weird...I just got an image of Dennis Weaver in that movie 'Duel'. You never saw the bad guy driving that truck. Dennis has to think quickly and decisively to evade DEATH in that movie. An early Steven Speilberg film. Any input on the lane-changing phenomenom would be great guys. Sayonara...mariners-did I spell Sayonara correctly?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • coolguyky7coolguyky7 Member Posts: 932
    I'll take my chances in a RAV4, you take yours in a Sportage. We'll see who comes out on top.
  • randyt2randyt2 Member Posts: 81
    mecho
    I think that Edmunds does care about safety, because about half of the voters had kids. But whatever appealed to the staff for the most wanted, it probably was not the looks of the Echo.

    iluv
    Also, crash safety will provide you some protection against the OTHER driver. P.S. now that you are saying sayonara, maybe the Mariners will win today.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Major, I need to set you straight on the side impact scores (NHTSA) of the ECHO vs. Elantra. Please review the scores for the 2001 models of each and you will see:

    1. Elantra has same scores as ECHO on driver front and rear side impact - 4.
    2. Elantra had BETTER scores than ECHO on passenger front (5 vs. 4) and front side impact (5 vs. 3).

    Unfortunately, we should not directly compare the NHTSA scores of the ECHO and Elantra because under the NHTSA rules, cars that are not within 500 pounds of each other should not be compared. ECHO is 2160 pounds and Elantra is 2897 pounds as tested by the NHTSA.

    Also, as you pointed out, we cannot compare IIHS ratings for the ECHO and Elantra because the ECHO has not been tested yet. So I don't know what basis you have for saying that Edmunds.com's editors don't care about safety because they chose the Elantra over the ECHO. There is no evidence, at least not that you have presented, to back that assertion.

    (Also, you forgot to mention that when comparing the ECHO to the ZX3 on NHTSA crash tests, the ZX3 bested the ECHO on three out of four categories.)
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I was not drawing a comparison between the side impact crash test scores of the Elantra and the Echo.

    I clearly made the comparison in that regard between the Echo and the Focus ZX3.

    I know you cannot compare the results of the IIHS test even when it is done on the Echo.

    By mentioning that test, I was pointing out that the Elantra got the worst possible overall score on that test.

    Also, the Focus ZX3 got the worst possible score in the side impact test for protection of rear seat occupants.

    BTW, don't you think the fact that the Elantra had side impact air bags and the Echo did not might have had something to do with the better score of the Elantra in the NHTSA test?

    My whole point is that this seems to indicate that safety is only a "legitimate" issue when the people at Edmunds wants it to be rather than truly a motivating factor.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I think if anyone needs to be corrected it is you.

    You mischaracterized the tests and what you can compare. Or at the very least you made it hard to understand.

    You lumped the front impact test results which cannot be compared between the Elantra and the Echo with the side impact crash test results which can be compared between the two.

    The Elantra got a five in protecting the front seat occupants and a four in protecting the rear seat occupants in a side impact crash.

    The Echo got a three in protecting the front seat occupants and a four in protecting the rear seat occupants during a side impact crash.

    I still think the lack of side impact air bags in the Echo tested and the presence of side impact air bags in the Elantra tested might have something to do with the higher rating of the Elantra in protecting the front seat occupants.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    let's just get this straight. What kind of vehicle I prefer and what kind of vehicle you prefer should in no way turn into a competition to the death. Your comment reminded me of the Romans and bloodbaths a bit too much. Although I would feel much safer in a Kia Sportage 4x4 than a Toyota RAV4(without ever having to test drive the RAV4-there's no need-it carries on that ripoff Japanese tradition that makes me want to barf)I would never wish death upon another driver. Your comment "we'll see who comes out on top" reminded me of the ancient Romans a tad too much. Safe driving to all and another Mariner's victory is only hours away.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I agree one reason for the Elantra's better NHTSA crash tests scores compared to the ECHO could be because of the Elantra's standard side air bags. It could also be due to other factors, such as the Elantra's solid body structure, extra weight (about 700 pounds more than the ECHO), etc. I don't know why the NHTSA didn't test the ECHO with its optional side air bags, as they have done with other cars. You'd have to ask them. One possible reason is that the NHTSA buys test cars off dealer lots, and perhaps they could not find an ECHO with side air bags at the time of their testing.


    I don't understand why you are complaining about how I stated the Elantra's and ECHO's test scores. What I stated is accurate, although I organized my thoughts differently than you did. Anyone who wants all the facts can go to the NHTSA web site, http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov, and the IIHS site, http://www.iihs.org. At least I gave the full story on the ECHO vs. ZX3, while you only mentioned the one NHTSA test in which the ECHO outperformed the ZX3. IMO, that is misleading. And I also pointed out that the NHTSA scores should not be compared between the ECHO and Elantra because of the weight disparity--which you did not mention in your initial post on this subject.


    We should also consider that the ZX3 is a 2dr hatchback, and many owners will seldom/never carry rear passengers. Those drivers who do carry rear passengers would do well to avoid the ZX3 because of the poor rear side impact results.


    Anyway, if crash safety is a buyer's paramount concern, he/she will likely not buy an ECHO, Elantra, or ZX3, but a Civic. The 2dr Civic with optional side air bags scored 5 stars in all the NHTSA tests and also had excellent IIHS test results. In fact I believe that if the Civic 2dr met the $13,000 bar set by Edmunds for Economy Cars, they would have chosen it as the Most Wanted, based not only on superior crash-worthiness but on other attributes that make it an excellent small car, like reliability, quality, roominess, and gas mileage. They did name it the runner-up to the Golf in the Hatchback/Coupe under $20,000 category. The Civic DX 2dr missed the bar by only $250 ($500 including the side air bags), so anyone who wants a crash-worthy car and doesn't mind a basic vehicle, or mind paying more for an up-level LX or EX, can choose the Civic.

  • randyt2randyt2 Member Posts: 81
    >>When it comes to the Echo, Edmunds makes cracks about safety<<

    Can you give us a link?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Major, you've expressed your disagreement with Edmunds.com's pick for Most Wanted Economy Car based on safety. I am curious as to which car you believe deserves the "Most Wanted" label, based on safety. Recall that the MSRP + Destination must be under $13,000.
  • coolguyky7coolguyky7 Member Posts: 932
    That little comment you just made in parenthesis is exactly why some on this board snap at your your posts. You add things that aren't relevant to the point and EVERY post you make has some allusion to Kia's supposed being the best.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Just a quick FYI.

    My roommate and I took test drives of the 2001 Kia Rio sedan and the 2002 Kia Spectra sedan. The reasons behind the test drive and the details on the test drives including my thoughts on the cars will be posted when I have more time.

    I will also post responses to Backy including my pick for the best car and to Randy.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Can't wait to hear your impressions of the new Spectra. I finally saw some while driving past my local dealer on Saturday, but did not have time to take a close look.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Iluv, you really got that bassackwards. If you don't drive safely, it is very important that you be in a safe vehicle. If you drive safely, then the actual safety ratings of the vehicle mean less.

    Regarding your questions about not signaling, that is one of my pet peeves. I signal all the time. It is so ingrained that even if I am the only one on the road, I signal. If there is only one way to go, I still signal.

    I live right on the border between two states and the state that I don't live in seems to use turn signals less. It could just be the county I travel to in that state. It is a very upscale county and I guess the people think they are too important to use turn signals.

    Iluv, I believe Duel was Spielberg's first movie as director.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    The Spectra sedan was the first one that my roommate and I test drove. Before getting in, I asked the saleswoman if Kia had done anything about the smell that my roommate and I were subjected to at the auto show in March. She claimed to be unaware of what I was talking about.

    I soon got an indication that nothing had changed. I was on the passenger side when the saleswoman opened the driver's door. A very unpleasant odor reached my nostrils.

    What the saleswoman did next I could not believe. She reached in and turned the car on. No, that is not a typo. She did not get in, she simply reached in. Also, I was very surprised that she did not ask to see my driver's license and did not ask to see proof of insurance. I walked around to the driver's side and my roommate went to the passenger side. We got in and the saleswoman did not go with us. Another surprise. The final surprise was that she did not slap a dealer's plate on the car.

    I turned on the air conditioning to see if it would help with the smell and also I wanted to see how the acceleration was. It definitely helped the smell.

    The Spectra was an automatic and as I accelerated onto the highway, I felt myself wishing the car had a few more horses or it was a manual. Definitely felt underpowered. Feelings shared by my roommate. It also felt like it was balking at changing gears.

    I can't really say how the car reacted to bumps because we were in that very upscale county in the next state and potholes and bumps don't exist on the highway we were traveling. The seats did feel fairly comfortable. I felt the driver's seat was more comfortable than the passenger seat.

    After getting off the highway, traveling down a city street for a while, I pulled into a parking lot to switch places with my roommate. Steering feel was similar to my Echo.

    Remember I said that my roommate felt the acceleration was lacking and felt underpowered? She likes automatics and had wanted her next car to be automatic, but if she were to get a Spectra, she would want a manual.

    One thing I noticed when getting into the passenger seat was that the smell seemed a little stronger. I turned up the A/C even more and it did not seem to help.

    One thing both my roommate and I noticed when we got back to the dealership and out of the car was that there was a burning smell coming from somewhere. I did not really associate it with the car we were just in, but my roommate did. I hope nothing happened because I forgot to mention it to the saleswoman.

    Stylewise, I think Kia did a pretty good job. It is a nice looking car. Qualitywise, I think they have room for improvement. My feeling comes mainly from looking at the exterior of the car.

    I am pressed for time and must end this. If there is something more you want to know, just post it and I will deal with it in my next post. If no questions, I will probably post about the Rio test drive next instead.

    But I want to leave you with the word for the day (in regards to that Rio test drive). The word for the day is buzzy.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I am glad you got the Complete Driving Experience of a Korean car, smell and all. If it helps any, the smell does go away pretty quickly (half-life of about 1-2 weeks). I suspect the "burning smell" you experienced was related to the other odor. Korean car makers use a sealant on the car to protect it during the ocean crossing. So you probably smelled the sealant burning off the muffler or converter. (Or it could have been undercoating overspray, a common problem I've seen/smelled before on even Japanese cars.) I smelled much the same thing with my brand-new Elantra. It too faded quickly. Now my car just has that wonderful new-car smell--even after one year.

    If you have time I'd be curious as to details on the quality (fit, finish, materials) and also how quiet the car was, overall and engine noise.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I would say that the fit and finish were below that of my Echo. The hood looked to be off for one thing. No, I did not try to open it, but I should have. I felt the materials were comparable to what is in my Echo. The road noise was about the same as with my Echo, but the engine was much louder in the Spectra. I will go into more detail on its own review, but the Rio was the LOUDEST!

    One thing I was the most disappointed in was the fuel economy numbers of the Spectra, but I guess my Escort and Echo have left me spoiled. I get about 36mpg with the Escort and around 41mpg with the Echo.

    Speaking of fuel, the sales lady told us the Rio had a full tank of gas and I joked that we would be back when the tank was almost empty. She did not seem to be joking when she said that would be fine.

    Sorry if my review is not up to the standards or detail of a professional review, but those guys get to be with the cars a lot longer than I did. Also, I did not take notes during the test drives. When she gets home, my roommate and I should be going to take a look at Hyundais and I am going to take a pad of paper to jot notes down. I will take this pad of paper with me on all future test drives.

    We are taking these test drives because her son is in the market for a low end car, but she will be in the market for a car soon too. I am having her write down all the things that are important to her such as safety, reliability, quality, resale value, etc., and then I am having her rate the importance of each on a 1 to 10 or 1 to 5 scale.

    We are going to use that to pick the best car for her and we are also going to use your (Backy's) push/blocker system and see what the answer is that way.
  • ichem1ichem1 Member Posts: 11
    Backy and others: Suspect wife and I went to local Mazda dealer and checked availability of Protege equipped as my wife wanted it. There are no Proteges in the U.S as of now that fit the description my wife wants. The sticking point is the side air bag and ABS brake package we demand along with the lack of a sun roof. They call them moon roof here in Florida since any mention of the sun would send any real Floridian running. Estimated delivery date early Jan. or Feb. I understand that there are brochures with pictures of the 2003 Corolla available. The person I work with bought a Corolla in Feb. and he got an advert. in the mail today for the new Corolla. He will bring it to work with him in the morning. Will let you know.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Iluv, the Mariners losing is not a bad thing. It's a good thing. After all, you can take solace in the fact that they got closer to the World Series than Ken Griffey Jr.

    Now what was that about world series pie? ; )

    Oh btw, I did not get to the Hyundai dealership. Had more important things to do. Might not be until this weekend.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I take it you missed the infamous looking like spam after a crash in an Echo crack made by Edmunds.

    I am not sure if that remark is in a review that is still reachable because I think Edmunds may have revised it due to protests that it was in bad taste.

    If I can find it, I will point you to it.
  • netranger4netranger4 Member Posts: 149
    On the Spectra, the fit and finish (at least on the car I drove) had improved quite a bit. I did open the hood and it seemed to open and close while retaining its fit. The smell started to diminish after several miles. My primary concern was the seat cushion and seat back. Being short, the seat simply doesn't fit me. Like yourself, I found the engine noise when accelerating normally to be a bit annoying. Overall, the car has been improved over the previous model. On the Rio, I drove a Cinco and didn't find some of the faults such as a loud engine (at least on the example driven)that you did. The ride was good. Much better than my neighbor's BMW 325. The workmanship appeared to be very good. No wind noise etc. Both cars appeared to be of good value for buyers who want to avoid overpriced 100,000 mile used cars or those of limited means. One neighbor has a 98 Sephia that has just crested 83K and still seems to be running well. The long warranty will probably offset any aggravation caused by repairs.
    My friend, the dealer tells me that he is selling few to the bruised credit crowd, and a goodly number of senior citizens are purchasing both Rio and Sephia/Spectra models.
    There are still a large number of Ford Aspires (Kia) and Pontiac LeMans (Daewoo) on the road in this area, Metro Detroit, and an increasing population of Kia and Hyundai vehicles. BTW happened to see a Daewoo transit bus on a Detroit street. Believe it was on a test route. Interesting..
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    Most owners of small sedans apparently are not concerned about sitting a few inches off the road. The ECHO, Prius, and PT Cruiser are the ONLY sedans that feel comfortable to my wife and I after owning 2 pickups and 2 minivans. Our last sedan was a 1980 Impala purchased NEW in October, 1979.
    The ECHO is the only comfortable sedan for us within the price parameters set for this forum. Now, when will Toyota offer an ECHO LE with padded armrests on front doors, fold down armrests for driver and front passenger, soft and padded material on the doors, quality seats like in even the least expensive Sienna, and Cruise?
    P.S. We have no grudge against Kia. We test drove the Sedona and were VERY impressed with the comfortable, quiet ride with nice acceleration. It was as comfortable, quiet, etc. as either the Sienna or Odyssey. The Sedona also had the most leg and foot room for driver and front passenger of all minivans we have driven.
  • marinersmariners Member Posts: 23
    The Mariners lost! I've been sobbing ever since..

    Iluv, how would I know how to spell sayonara in japanese? I ain't japanese, next time, say: Ahnyoung! to say hi and Ahnyoung! to say bye..
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    Humm...are you Korean? Don't answer if you don't feel like it. I've picked up some hints along the way, but, you know what, iluv's been wrong before. AHHHH!!!! Now that that's outta da way-mr. major-check out my Mariner's comment on the 'How Are The Koreans Doing?'site, OK? I don't feel like retyping. A parting comment for now. Mr.major-your Kia reviews leave a good impression on me. What a fantastic car company! I want a new car and I want it to look great. I don't want it to cost too much. After all, we Washingtonians are the 5th highest taxed state in the U.S. AND WE HAVE LARGE REAL ESTATE COSTS. Whether we rent or own. Just the way it is. I also want my car to be backed by a manufacturer's warranty that is rock solid. Did I mention GREAT LOOKING CARS? Oh, OK. I also want the car to run great and run great for the long-haul. Kia's still passing the grade. Oh, fair insurance costs. Still Kia passes the test. Reliable? Yes, Kia's are reliable. Hummm...I guess I agree. The obvious new car choice(or used for that matter)is Kia. Bye.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    So what you are saying is you want a smelly car with a loud engine that lags behind in build quality?

    No wonder you like Kias. Especially if smell is your first criteria. ; )
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