Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Mercedes-Benz M-class vs Ford Explorer/Mercury Mountaineer vs Buick Rendezvous vs Acura MDX

1235789

Comments

  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    The 03 MDX as you know increase its horse power by 20. Although that is not a major change, but I wouldnt call it minor. If you think about it, 20 hp is more than 10% of the Rendezvous' total horse power. Hopefully the tranny problem will go away with the re-design transmission for the 03. You said the engine runs loud, have you drove a 03 MDX before? It as quiet as any luxury SUV on the market. The wind and tire noise might be what you are referring to. The handling changes include a vehicle stability system, more road feedback from the steering wheel and a stiffer chassis. The 03 also added a pair of dual piston disk brakes up front to increase stopping power.
    I did not include the Rendezvous on my list of possible next SUV, due to the fact that I did not want a entry level SUV. The Rendezvous is a nice SUV, but frankly, I would have pick the Envoy over it.
    The price of the MDX is inflated not by the lack of production by Acura but by demand out pacing production. Last year both the MDX and the Rendezvous sold about a little over 50000 vehicles. while the MDX demand remains high, the Rendezvous had plenty of left over 02 even with the 0% interest and factory incentives.
    Dont get me wrong, I am not putting down the Rendezvous just because I want my own machine to look good. I am merely debating that the Rendezvous is not as good as a bargain as its owners claim.
    By the way, I agree with you that all dealers are a bunch of #*@*%! I might try internet car shopping the next time around.
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    Traditionally, this company limits its run of 1st and 2nd year production. eg: Odysessey and MDX. There is the demand side, but they also shorted the supply side. Rendezvous was 1st run last year, but still had a production line above 50K units delivered off a single production line, yet the production of the MDX in its 2nd year lagged behind...not because of quality control, but because of the companies decision to make fewer cars despite the demands. It's the philosophy of that company to do such.

    The MDX 20 HP increase comes from tinkering of the valve and exhaust system. Once the Rendezvous has had its two year run, I'm sure things will change for it too. eg. a supercharger or timing valves to deliver more HP.

    The noise is from the engine, yes. When you throttle the engine, at mid RPMs 2000-3000, it's loud, especially between the 2nd/3rd gears. Plus, the shifting was harder than desirable. This was on the 2002 though, they didn't have the 2003s on the lot yet. Hopefully they helped the tranny at least on the 2003.

    Again, entry luxury level SUV, not entry SUV like a Jimmy or Base Sante Fe--make your distinctions. The Envoy is drove and handled TOO BIG, a gas guzzler, and rode too truck-like for me. That's what eliminated it from my list.

    Dealers that gouge is my problem. The air that the Acura salespeople had were intolerable! This is the same air that the Honda people had when the Odyssey came out and the New Accord and Civic. It's within the whole company line. What shocked me was that the Volvo people started giving a hard line with the XC90. I've shopped Volvo several times for cars, they previously never had that.....a disappointment. I'll surly let them know in June when I turn in my Volvo lease.

    Rendezvous not a good bargain? Okay, list the FACTS on why it isn't a bargain against the MDX that justifies the (I'll even give you a low ball difference) $10,000.
    I'll give you a start on the MDX advantage: engine and fake wood trim.
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    I am afraid that we are just going around in a circle. Is it possible that the MDX you test drove had been abuse quite a bit, because none of the MDX owners I talk to complains about engine noise.

    No need to list the facts, we have already done that. The main difference for me was that when I got into the MDX and I had that wow feeling and when I got into the Rendezvous, I got that its okay feeling. Actually, I was very surprise at what was Rendezvous was trying to pass off as a interior. How can you look at that interior day after day? I thought the Grand Cherokee and the Envoy had a much nicer interior. Hopefully in the Rendezvous 2nd or 3rd year, they will redesign that awful interior and increase its engine power. But dont be surprise if they dont, the Rendezvous' target buyers usually dont care that much about horsepower.

    The Volvo and Acura dealers are not to blame. It is supply and demand. Any dealer with a hot seller on its hand acts snobbish. Just like the BMW dealers are now with the mini cooper. Still dont see the appeal in that car.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    Honda actually built another plant in Alabama to speed up production of Odyssey minivans. If you look at autosite.com, you will see that sales of MDX and Odyssey (#2 in Nov.) have increased as a result of the added production run.
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    The plant in Alabama is going to produce Odyssey, MDX and Pilots I believe. Honda and Acura had a hard time keeping up with demand because they have three of the hottest selling car on the market, the Odyssey, MDX and Pilot. Honda does make cars like civic and accords in large numbers. But when a car or suv takes on that Acura badge. They concentrate on quality instead of quantity. What they are after is repeat customers really. The MDX has seen its sales numbers increase from 01 to 02. I am sure 03 will be another record breaking year.
  • rerenov8rrerenov8r Member Posts: 380
    On the one hand there is talk of a $14K difference, on the other, talk that the MDX might not be a luxo-supremo as the Lexus and/or BMW offerings...

    When I run the the numbers I can't figure out a way to get an AWD Rendy CX with comparable options to a Base MDX for less than $33,785 MSRP (this includes: 6-Way Power Driver Seat CX Plus Package Leather Seating Surfaces Sunroof w/Short Console Third Row Seat ) Edmunds TMV puts this at a hair under 31K. Assuming you could max out incentives this is still over 27K. The MDX MSRP is $36,200 (with destination). Edminds TMV is OUTDATED, as nobody is paying over MSRP for Base MDXs. A gap of less $11K.

    The Lex & BMW offerings are far higher...
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    I agree with you that the top of the line Rendezvous is somewhat Compatible to the cheapest MDX. while one has options that the other dont have and other has options that one dont have. But then options are not everything, there are many other factors involved. The Lexus RX300 has more of a luxury ride and the BMW is a sportier SUV. I find the MDX to be a good compromise between the two. The RX300 and the X5 are also much smaller inside. One of the main reason I like SUV is the passenger and cargo space it offers. Both the X5 and RX300 did not deliver in that department.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    Wait for the Lexus RX330. Toyota's new Sienna is aiming straight for the Odyssey, I can only imagine that the new RX will be aiming for the MDX.
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    Yes, one of the MDX's major competitor is the RX300. The Odyssey and the MDX are class leading vehicles and pretty much everyone try to aim for them. It is good that we have cars such as the Odyssey, X5, XC90 and the MDX to use as benchmarks, otherwise there will be no incentives for the other auto manufacturer to make better car. During the next year, there are quite a few new SUV coming out in this class. The RX330 may be nice, but as usual, it will face very stiff competitions. A major player and a sure winner coming on the horizon is the Volkwagon Touareg. I have just started looking at the specs for this SUV. Its out performs the X5 and the Aviator in every category. hopefully, they wont set the MSRP so high that it becomes unaffordtable.
  • tmakogontmakogon Member Posts: 74
    Americans vote with their dollar, and over 300,000 people per year can't be wrong.

    Looking at the sales figures, Ford Explorer sells in a month what MDX and others hope to sell in a year.

    Thanks due diploid for referencing autosite.com.

    Regards,
    Taras
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    I think Lexus missed out here. They had a chance to change things and offer a 7 seater to compete in that segment, but decided to split and bank on the GX to pick those buyers up. I think that is going to cost them big time unfortunately. Though questionable in safety of the 3rd row, it's a major selling issue for these crossovers, and the RX could have been lengthened just a tad bit more for that 3rd row!
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    You'll get a better match using these two options instead of the CX and MDX base. There are too many differences in those two at the base levels. The difference will come out with financing incentives (0% x 5years or $3000 plus $655 for leather) to nearly $14,000.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Interior styling is very subjective. I took one look at the RDV interior and said, "WOW!"


    It is stylish, handsome, and supremely functional. All the controls have a soft touch feel, and their actuation is smooth and precise.


    If one finds it unattractive, so be it, that's why we have choices. But to group the RDV with the "entry-level crowd" is absurd.


    Also, I admit the MDX is a great SUV, one all manufacturers aspire to. However, I am not the only person who noticed a lack of interior material quality or unacceptable interior noise at cruise (engine, wind, and road).


    Car and Driver said:


    "Road noise was louder than we had expected."


    "The MDX is a heckuva big box, pushing aside so much atmosphere that it tied with the Discovery for creating the most racket at a 70-mph cruise."


    Edmunds.com said:


    "The interior does little to convince you that you did, indeed, get a luxury vehicle. The wood is spectacularly fake, and some of the controls and panels feel cheap."


    "More functional than luxurious...the MDX falls short in the luxury department."


    Take a look for yourself:


    2003 Acura MDX: http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/acura/mdx/4wd4drsuv35l6cyl5a/photo_3.html


    2002 Honda Accord:

    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2002/honda/accord/exv64drsedan30l6cyl4a/photo_3.html


    The interior of the MDX is virtually the same as the last generation Accord...except for the plood, of course.

  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    Like I mention earlier, I did not group the RDV as a entry level luxury SUV, all the auto magazines did, personally, I would not even consider it as such.
    After looking at pictures of both interior again, I try to see it from your point of view and try to imagine what possibly could you like about the RDV's interior. I am sorry, I just dont see it, they are not even close. I must admit the MDX might be near luxury on the inside but the RDV is definitely econo all the way. The quality of interior material on the MDX is much better than the RDV, when one say its lacks interior quality, they are actually comparing to the Lexus and Volvo.

    You mention thats: Car and Driver said:

    "Road noise was louder than we had expected." thats because one usually one does not expect road noise from a car this refined. And while we are on the subject, here what else car and driver has to say about the MDX. It rated the MDX the top five truck and SUV for 2001, refer to the following link:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/features/2001/July/200007_5best_toc.xml

    The MDX was also named the SUV of the year by motor trend.

    The MDX has the highest 5 star ratings from NHTSA for the 03 model.

    On a article recently written by car and driver, it compare the top 7 midsize luxury SUV on the market. Refer to then following link:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontests/2003/january/0301_comparo_bradsher.xml

    The RDV was not on its list, in fact the RDV was not even invited to the competition.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "One does not expect road noise from a car this refined."

    Actually a refined car, by definition, is quiet. The MDX is not a refined car.

    Regarding the 7 SUV comparo, you said, "The RDV was not on its list, in fact the RDV was not even invited to the competition."

    You imply the RDV wasn't "good enough" to compete? The RDV wasn't invited because it's a bargain. As stated by Car & Driver:

    "The qualifications were simple: five-door, well-equipped SUVs with sticker prices ranging from about $40,000 to $50,000."

    Yet even in these vaunted comparison tests, the reviewers always knock the MDX for it's noise and cheap interior...then they give it awards because it's peppy and light on it's feet.

    Obviously, you and many others bought the MDX because it's quick, attractive, and the magazine's told you too. MDX owners tolerate it's vices (noise and pedestrian interior) in exchange for straight-line performance. That's fine.

    When I test drove an '02 MDX, I did not care for it's Accord interior, excessive wind and road noise, and tail-happy cornering. I was also unimpressed with it's (then) 240 HP, which provides acceleration that's on par with most $20K ish sedans.

    The MDX simply isn't a $40,000+ car. It's as luxurious as a Honda Accord, as sporty as a Ford Taurus, and less versatile than a minivan.
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    Quietness is not the only category that makes a refined car, it is only one of many category that makes a refine car.
    Regarding the 7 SUV comparo, I was simply trying to tell you what I been telling you all along. The RDV is simply not in the same class as the MDX. The reviewer may complain about wind noise, but all SUV has its pros and cons, in the end, its the overall rating that counts.
    I actually thinks the accord has a very nice interior, it sure beats that econo sub compact interior that RDV is shooting for.
    If you were un-impressed with the MDX's 240 HP then you much be totally piss about the 185 HP engine the RDV offers.
    By the way do you really think a Ford Taurus is sporty?
    Look, I am not trying to put down the RDV. Its a nice car for its price. But its not a bargain as you claim, in fact, its just price about right for what it is. But I truely wish Buick would up the price a little and make some much needed improvement. By the way, did your wife force you to buy the RDV. I hope its not your only car, perhaps you have some sporty coupe in your garage as a second car.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I agree that quietness is not all that makes a "refined" car. What other "many categories" of refinement does the MDX possess to overcome this handicap?

    I like the '02 Accord interior too...it's nice. Did you look at the links for the Accord and MDX? They are remarkably similar, aren't they?

    I guess we just disagree about the RDV interior, although I do have a lot more experience with it than you (you never really drove the RDV, did you?).

    I never claimed to love the 185 HP engine. It performs adequately for a family hauler. '94 Miata for fun...SUV for baby seats and soccer practice.

    I mention the Ford Taurus because in 0-60, 1/4 mile, 600' slalom, and 60-0 braking performance, it's numbers are a virtual match for the MDX...certainly not sporty enough to satisfy a "true car enthusiast" and "former owner of two BMW's!"

    The Buick RDV is not a bargain? The CXL with 1SD package offers a smooth, refined ride and confident sure-footed handling, AWD traction, leather seating, moonroof, heated seats, head-up-display, rear sonar park assist, tire pressure monitor, dual zone climate control, rear seat audio, 2-driver seat/mirror memory, heated seats and mirrors, auto-dim rearview mirror, power driver & passenger seats, reverse-tilt mirror, OnStar, driver info center, remote-entry, security system, etc. MSRP-$34,895. Invoice-$31,378. Incentives-$3000 rebate, $655 leather discount.

    So, can you succinctly answer 3 questions?

    1. What other car offers all the luxury, features, and performance of the RDV CXL for about $28,000?

    2. Can you LIST what the MDX offers over the RDV that justifies a $12,000 premium? (montreid already gave you two - better engine and plood trim)

    3. With Honda Accord accomodations, Ford Taurus performance limits, and notable wind and road noise, how does the MDX rise up to "luxury" status?
  • artgpoartgpo Member Posts: 483
    I am a lurker. I sit quietly and read what everyone posts. I don't own an SUV. Matter of fact, I drive a minivan, imagine that, a 2003 Olds Silhouette. What strikes me as odd is how people come on here and beat up American cars calling them "cheap", "entry level", etc. without so much as a close up look. Many rely on the automotive press for their opinions. Keeping in mind all automotive magazines accept ad revenue from the very companies they review, I cannot accept their opinions as gospel. Many of you seem to suffer from what I call "snob appeal". You think that by driving a more costly vehicle you will somehow be looked upon with more favor at your country club or office or the mall. Let's be honest, most vehicles today are reliable and get you to those places with some manner of creature comfort. Maybe I have a higher level of self esteem and don't need to social climb?

    The Buick Rendezvous is a perfectly fine vehicle, well made, quiet and loaded with creature comforts. A close family member bought one just this past weekend. He got a much better deal than would he have gotten at Honda or Acura. His RDV will get him there in the same level of comfort, at the same speed as will the competition. He bought the RDV after looking at ALL the competition. There was just nothing close for the same money. It offered him an outstanding value just as did my Olds.

    The only real test of a vehicle is personal experience. I come from a home where Mercedes and Cadillacs were and are driven so I am familiar with luxury.

    Just because it says "Buick" or "Ford" does not make the thing a piece of junk. A certain national consumer magazine would have you think that, but their prejudice toward Japanese and German cars is legendary. Use what you were given, your brain, and make the decision for yourself. Quit beating up on people because they chose to buy a wonderful domestic product.
  • actionmanactionman Member Posts: 15
    Come on guys! Don't look at the price of entry as the cost of ownership. The facts speak for themselves. The MDX has excellent resale value, as evidenced by the residual rates. Compare that to the others. I don't think the RDV people will be so happy when they realize this. Remember, your cost is always the difference between what you paid and what you will get. Nobody owns a vehicle forever - and nobody should, especially those interested enough to partake in these sites.
  • artgpoartgpo Member Posts: 483
    Any person smart enough to listen to the "experts" will tell you the most cost effective way to own a vehicle is to keep it until the wheels fall off.

    If I buy a $40,000 vehicle and trade it four years later for $20,000 or a $28,000 vehicle and trade it for $8,000 what is the difference? I would have to lay out $12,000 more to get back 50% value vs. 29%? Where's the economy in that?

    I forgot that snob appeal means replacing perfectly good vehicles every two years to maintain appearances.

    The whole point is that we, me included, should not pass judgment or put labels on things until we have all the facts.
  • actionmanactionman Member Posts: 15
    Don't get me wrong. If you want the $28,000 vehicle, that's fine. In your example, the cost is $20k for each. Laying out an extra $12k to get what you want is mitigated by super cheap interest rates, and could be totally offset by other costs such as insurance, or how you feel after a crash. A couple of hundred per year in interest is what the $12k should cost you.

    I just don't like it when people assume that the $40,000 vehicle is too expensive. If you are happy driving a vehicle into the ground, then good for you. I personally don't see us doing it because our needs will change over the next 3-4 years, and vehicle changes in technology, safety, and comforts are continuously changing.

    For me, driving an Acura is quite the opposite of snobbish. For someone to assume I am snobbish is irresponsible. It was simply the only 7 passenger, awd, 4,500 tow capacity vehicle with a stellar safety rating that made sense. I didn't want to garage a Tahoe, and the Envoys were not available in 3rd row seating at the time. Seems that lame Lexus SUVs are the snob-set's vehicle of choice.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    Has never been about snobbery. Though that was Honda's initial mission in establishing a Japanese luxury brand, rivals such as Lexus and Infiniti were quickly established a luxury brands with snob appeal while Acura has lingered in the near-luxury category, only a little above Mercury and Buick.

    Look at their lineup - the majority of their cars are -/+ 30K (RSX, CL, TL). MDX is just slightly above that and the RL doesn't even sell for its 43K sticker price. The 88K NSX is just way overpriced.

    I don't see how anyone driving an Acura could ever be tagged as a badge snob. I don't see it in a Mercury, Buick, or Oldsmobile owner either.
  • actionmanactionman Member Posts: 15
    Don't get me wrong. If you want the $28,000 vehicle, that's fine. In your example, the cost is $20k for each. Laying out an extra $12k to get what you want is mitigated by super cheap interest rates, and could be totally offset by other costs such as insurance, or how you feel after a crash. A couple of hundred per year in interest is what the $12k should cost you.

    I just don't like it when people assume that the $40,000 vehicle is too expensive. If you are happy driving a vehicle into the ground, then good for you. I personally don't see us doing it because our needs will change over the next 3-4 years, and vehicle changes in technology, safety, and comforts are continuously changing.

    For me, driving an Acura is quite the opposite of snobbish. For someone to assume I am snobbish is irresponsible. It was simply the only 7 passenger, awd, 4,500 tow capacity vehicle with a stellar safety rating that made sense. I didn't want to garage a Tahoe, and the Envoys were not available in 3rd row seating at the time. Seems that lame Lexus SUVs are the snob-set's vehicle of choice.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    I am a lurker.

    Not any more! Welcome aboard!

    tidester, host
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    Agreed on the Lexus. Talk about expensive, snob attitude AND lack of utility. The X5 can fall into that category too, but THAT's a machine that has the WOW factor.

    As mentioned previously, the Residual value is only part of the equation. If you paid MRSP (or MRSP+) then you paid full value of the vehicle base then take a full depreciation hit. If you paid closer to invoice, the realized costs are lower because of the lower purchase price. eg: MSRP: $33,000 purchased $28,000. That's $5,000 in real money not spent, but still calculated into the Residual value (based on MSRP).

    Again, the RV is a statistic that favors cars that have sold at MSRP. see above posts prior. $40,000 is too expensive for over 90% of the population. That's why the MDX wil never sell the amount of the Explorer. Heck even 6 figure salaries with family of 4, 2 college funds, and typical $250,000 home mortgage would find it VERY tight to afford a $40,000 vehicle payment. (see above posts)

    There are differences in length of ownership. The longer, the cheaper no doubt. I actually would put Acura owners in the "privaleged" group though. Not the MB/BMW group so much, but definitely as more snobbish attitude. Which one would a salt-of-the-earth person want: Pilot or the MDX? Obviously the Pilot; but I would gather most of us would say: the MDX, why? Because we're all a little snobbish....that's why we like cars!
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    A refined car is one thats has a smooth power train, quiet, reliable, performs well and many other things. The MDX actually meet all the categories above except for the wind noise at high speed. But law of physic has it that anytime you drive a big box at high speed, the wind resistance increase. The 03 is actually alot quieter. on the highway than pass MDX.
    And Yes I did test drive the RDV. Maybe you should take your own advice and test drive the 03 MDX before passing judgment on it. I spend about 45 mins at the Buick dealer, the salesman was very pushy. I guess he didnt realize he was dealing with a veteran car shopper. He actually took $3000 of MSRP without me even asking. He had quite a few on the lot and I guess he was over stock. You already know what my impression of the RDV is so I wont get you mad by saying it again.
    So you own a Miata too, I knew it. My point is that with the MDX, I dont need to own a Miata for fun. It is the best both world, indeed a true crossover sport utility vehicle. Therefore, if you look at it that way, you are not really saving as much as you think with the RDV if you need a second car to supplement it..
    The Ford Taurus is actually a pretty fast car but not sporty in any sense, maybe the SHO. But it has a 200 HP engine in it and 0-60 mph time is pretty good, If you consider the hp to weight ratio, its about the same as the MDX. Hey heres a though, maybe Buick should use the Taurus as a standard and increase the RDV's hp to weight ratio.
    I agree that the RDV is a fine vehicle, but thats all it is just fine, not one thing spectacular about it.
    And I dont think Acura owners are snobbish, we are more sensible than snobbish, look to the BMW and Mercedes owner for that distinction.
    Lets me give some of you an insight on residual value. I had a 96 Jeep Grand Cherokee and my wife owns a 96 Honda Accord. Both cars were traded in this year for the same blue book value. The original purchase price for the jeep was a little over $25000 with all the factory incentives and rebates and so on. The original purchase price for the Honda Accord was a little over $16000. Now do the math, even some of you guys out there cannot justify those numbers.
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    Friday, unless the MDX is a convertible and 5 inches lower, then it's hardly comparable. You've owned 2 Bimmers, you know that the MDX doesn't come close on cornering and the driving experience of anything beyond a urban commuting vehicle. If the RDV isn't in the same class, how are you justifying the MDX to a roadster?

    I would dare say that 99% of MDXs will never see more dirt road than an unimproved curb.

    Again, near invoice pricing philosophy (won't rehash) on American vehicles is what dictates pricing as much as overstock. eg: with only two RDV on the lot, I got Invoice pricing in addition to sales incentives during mid month. The pushiness of dealers? Heck, they all do it--even internet salespeople do it!

    I own the Taurus. Sporty, it is not. Capable engine and good off the line? Yes, and will always beat the MDX. The point. Sporty speed driving is NOT SUV--highway or local. The crossover in the near-lux/luxury is targeted toward the people mover family with luxury and safety in mind, thus the constant debate SUV vs. Urban Assault vehicle, etc....ultimately: Crossover segment.

    Sensible is the Honda Pilot (if its the engine that you love, minus the 20HP upgrade from the valve/exhaust that doesn't change the performance numbers measurably).
  • artgpoartgpo Member Posts: 483
    I don't own a Miata nor did I test drive the RDV. All I am saying, and I feel I am objective, is that I detect snobbery on this board. You can talk to me about handling, technology, craftsmanship, etc. until you are blue blood in the face. The bottom line is that a $150,000 vehicle will get you there in the same amount of time as will a base Kia. It is all personal preference and budget.

    I have no need for an urban assault vehicle but that does not mean I will cast disparaging remarks your way because you choose to buy one. Just don't b.s. me with lots of ranting and mumbo-jumbo, cause it ain't gonna work.

    This would be a very dull world if all we had to drive were Honda Civics.
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    I live in the northeast, so I really have no need for a convertible. Beside I have never been a fan of convertible, too dangerous in a roll over situation and the chassis is not as rigid therefore handling is compromised. I agree the MDX does not handle as well as the BMW in corners but it accelerates better than my 91 BMW 318i. And the road feed back from the steering wheel is just as good.
    Most luxury SUV are targeted toward the people mover family with luxury and safety in mind. But Acura and BMW are the only two car manufacturer out there that target performance as well. A Miata the MDX is not, but besides the size, it sure drives like one.
    A top of the line pilot is about 2 to 3 thousand cheaper than the MDX base. Not much more sensible there.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    So if the MDX is refined because of, "smooth power train, quiet, reliable, performs well and many other things", then the Honda Pilot is also a "luxury" SUV in the same class as the MDX.

    The only difference between the Pilot and the MDX is snob appeal and sticker price.

    I agree that Acura is not a "luxury brand" like Lexus or M-B, but it does hold a higher pedigree than Honda. People aspire to own an Acura just for sake of owning one, and to tell the world that they can afford a $40,000 car.

    And Friday, there is no way that the MDX is a substitute for a "sporty car"...it weighs more than 2 tons! Steering feedback of a BMW? ROTFLMAO! The 318i was one of the best handling BMW's ever.

    It sounds like your definition of "sport" is 0-60 in 8 seconds. Do you know what an apex is?
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    If you read my last posting, I mention that the top of the line pilot is about 2 to 3 thousand cheaper than the MDX base. Also the top of the line pilot is not much less luxurious than the MDX. The Acura badge is not a much higher pedigree brand as you mention. If you look at the Acura line, half of their models are under 30 thousand.
    And I didnt say that the MDX is a substitute for a "sporty car". Its merely a combination of both sportiness and utility. It has the best of both world. Where the BMW X5 is more sporty and less utility. Yes the MDX is over 2 tons, but weight has nothing to do with it, its the weight to HP ratio that counts. Look at the new Volkswagon SUV, it weights over 5000 LB and it out performs many sport cars.
    I have own two BMW in my life, their handling has gotten better through out the year. Back in the early 90s handling is not as good as it is now. The BMW 318i is a poor man's BMW, by the way thats me a poor man. The BMW 318i is not one of the best handling BMW ever made. That distinction goes to the M3, M5 or the Z4. I was comparing my 03 MDX to my 91 380i. The MDX is as sporty as the 318i except while cornering. So please dont hurt yourself while laughing on the floor. Since you probably never drove either one before.
    Sportiness is acceleration, handling and road feedback. The MDX performs well in 2 out of the 3 category and the RDV performs well in none. I would say 0-60 in 8 sec. is a time for any car or suv. Some are better and are worst. If the RDV could use that as their benchmark, then they may have a better SUV on their hands.
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    How much of a test drive did you take on the RDV? The handling/road feedback clearly outperformed the MDX. Slalom testing testing confirmed this too. Accelleration-wise, that's the MDXs strength, not it's vanilla interior WOW factor that you claim.

    A much advertised idea of a "sporty car" is zipping along Hwy 101, hugging along curves....zoom zoom (although I highly doubt the Mazda MPV can REALLY deliver what they adverstise in their case, I digress). I would cringe to do this is ANY SUV, including the new VW. There is absolutely no comparison of a SUV feel to a sports car. Even off-roading is a totally diferrent experience than a sports car drive experience along a road....thrilling the same.

    So, in the spirit of sportiness, when are the MDX (or RDV at that) going off-roading to show its "sportiness"....take a picture for us and post it of your MDX spinning away, kicking dust up and slogging away through the banks of the Hudson.

    One could argue that a loaded Pilot is excess in itself, if you will, a moderate trying to feel snobby ;)

    The point: Pilot is more mainstream affordable. Even $33,000 is pushing for many incomes out there. BTW, owning two Bimmers and MDX currently clearly puts you above a poor man's budget.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "the top of the line Pilot is not much less luxurious than the MDX."

    Could you clarify this (ie: what does the Pilot lack?)?

    "(the MDX has) a combination of both sportiness and utility. It has the best of both world."

    Actually, it is less sporty than a typical $25,000 family sedan, and has less utility than a minivan. In other words, it excels at neither.
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    Are you sure you two are not of the same person, I swear I am talking to the same person because both of you do not listen to facts, in fact, do you guys even read what I write before you response. All right here we go again. Frist montreid: My RDV test drive was about 20 minutes, the steering was soft and did not offer any road feedback. By the way, if you read the posting I wrote about my RDV, I said I was surprise with how well it handles. Only because it doesnt look like a car that handles well at all. The slalom test number should go up for the 03 MDX because of the VSA system, still waiting for the numbers to come out.
    I would like to take that picture for you but with the new VSA system, I cant get the MDX to do spins out. These new generation of SUV may surprise you as to how it can zoom zoom as you say. It all started with the X5 and the 03 MDX is getting sportier as well. With the Volkwagon SUV and the Porches SUV coming out. I think even the Mazda RX8 will have a hard time keeping up with them. Thanks to Volvo, the anti-rollover system is now on the market, it will make SUV handle alot better in corners. Do you really think owning a pilot is being snobby. My god, does everyone have to drive crappy cars to please you?
    Now your turn fedlawman or should I call you montreid: The quality of the front seats are better in the MDX, the MDX also offers auto headlights and auto wipers. Also in the MDX is the rear view camera, VSA system, dual piston front brakes, new 5-speed transmission, 20 more horse power and a DVD entertainment system. A typical $25,000 family sedan is what? A V6 toyota Camry. no competition there, the MDX comes out on top. Less utility than a minivan? We can count cup holders or something, but the MDX does everything a minivan can and more. It can goes off road and drive through deep snow. Therefore it has more use. By the way did you see the new Buick Rainier? A nicer looking car than the RDV and more power. Looks like the RDV's days are numbered.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    ... for sniping!

    Thanks, everyone!

    tidester, host
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    Not sniping at all, simply offer counter debate, you seem to be someone who knows automobile, perhaps you can settle it for us, because I am getting tired of talking to these two guys. So what you think, is the Buick RDV a better SUV or is it the MDX?
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    Ask Edmunds, they did a comparison test of the MDX against all other luxo-SUV's (the RDV was not included). They tested the RDV against a Highlander instead of an RX300 - kinda tells you what category they think the RDV falls in.
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    Below a few sentences from a review Edmunds did on the 2002 Buick RDV to help you make up your mind:
    The Buick RDV:
    The Buick offers a little of everything, but not enough of any one aspect in particular to recommend it over other vehicles in the class.
    The Rendezvous is a capable vehicle and people mover; its problem lies in the fact that it doesn't excel in any one area or another. It holds seven, but minivans and other SUVs, like the Acura MDX and Mercury Mountaineer, do that, as well. It has a nice interior, but others have better.
    Pulling this rather portly 4,024-pound package is GM's 3400 V6 engine, capable of producing 185 horsepower and 210 pound-feet of torque. We felt that GM's choice of engine was conservative; the company could have used one of the more potent powerplants in its stable.
    Zero-to-60-mph acceleration runs were achieved in 10.7 seconds, one of the slowest times among V6-powered SUVs and minivans. The engine provided good midrange power, but once revs are taken to the higher end of the tach, a high-pitched tone invaded the cabin; it almost sounds like a turbocharger kicking in. For 185 ponies to pull the 4,024-pound vehicle is a bit of a drudge; those taxed horses get tired out mighty quickly. The Rendezvous can be outfitted to tow up to 3,500 pounds, which is a rather paltry sum, but makes sense in light of the anemic engine and the unibody platform.
    Put it into a corner, however, and plenty of body roll and sway accompanies the movement of the vehicle. It ran our 600-foot slalom in 6.87 seconds at 59.5 mph, a tad slower than most other vehicles in this class. You don't want to tackle curves too aggressively anyway, as the Uniroyal Tiger Paw Touring SR P215/70R16 tires tend to protest loudly and fold over during cornering maneuvers.
    Hard braking was accompanied by lots of nosedive, and acceleration resulted in rear-end squat, which is to be expected in a vehicle with such soft suspension tuning.
    a couple of editors noted a backache after driving it for a while. No one liked the halo-type headrests. The instrument cluster was designed with "an expensive watch or a bracelet" in mind, with white-faced gauges and green numbers. While it looks different and classy, the numbers were too small to be easily referenced.
    The carmaker took great pains to point out that extravagant items have been used as inspiration for the interior. The color scheme, for example, was supposed to have been influenced by Louis Vuitton luggage. Well, it doesn't quite work, but the tri-tone scheme (in various shades of brown on our test vehicle) is pleasing nonetheless. Materials used fall short of the luxury mark; the leather on the seats is stiff and coarse, the faux aluminum trim (with a pattern that one editor claimed looked like striated muscle tissue) is mere plastic. Various rattles and squeaks infiltrated the cabin, but we couldn't detect any obvious fit-and-finish mistakes.
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    Friday, funny you would be asking if we read your posts and ours, we quote your own back to you to show inconsistancies in your comments, ie: yes, we read them.

    I know that you test drove the RDV, but my question was did DRIVE the RDV....a different emphasis on the type of driving.

    1 of your 3 categories defining sporty: handling: utilizing slalom stats (and only 2002 available), you still don't admit to the superior numbers that the RDV outperforms the MDX, only the make excuses...does this make the RDV suddenly sporty? Again, I sporty by SUV is totally diferrent from sporty in sports car....of which I saw that you didn't contest.

    "I would like to take that picture for you but with the new VSA system, I cant get the MDX to do spins out." Ah, you're an engineer AND live in the NE...you should know how overcome these controls.... Dirt and Ice have some surprisingly similar qualities on wheels....they both don't give traction for the wheels. Take any car/SUV (even the Volvo). Speed up, slam the brakes, turn hard left/right until going wheels slip (and they will unless you have chains), then jump the gas....oh yeah, you'll spit up that dirt or spin out....and take that picture.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    The MDX rear-view camera only comes with the "Touring + Nav" model, which adds another $2000 to the sticker price. Besides, one can add rear sonar parking sensors to the Pilot for about $500.

    Also, the Pilot has a 5 speed transmission, auto-off headlights, speed sensing wipers, ventilated disc brakes (stops shorter than MDX, ha ha), and an available DVD entertainment system.

    So, the only noteworthy feature you mentioned that the Pilot lacks is VSA. VSA adds a little more stability to the MDX, which is known for it's instability during emergency lane change maneuvers. Well, VSA alone does not elevate the MDX above the Pilot, especially considering that prior year MDX's also lacked it...yet are still in the same "class" as the 2003.

    Therefore, I still must conclude that their is no real distinction between the MDX and Pilot.
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    I test drove the Buick RDV and push it just a bit, sporty its not, boaty it is. Reminds me of the big old American sadens of old. Refer to posting # 254 as to how Edmunds feels about the RDV's handling.

    Here is a few more facts for you from consumer Guide, refer to the following site:

    http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/new/reviews/summ/index.cfm/id/27588.htm

    Please read what I have say careful, because I dont want to say I am inconsistance due to the fact that I word thing differently each time.

    The Buick RDV rated: 47/100 for midsize SUV

    The Acura MDX rated: 64/100 for Luxury SUV

    The Acura MDX rated highest of all luxury SUV in it class. Notice the Buick RDV was not even rated as a luxury SUV but a midsize SUV.

    Like I been telling all the Volvo owners out there all along. If one trys hard enough, one can get a Volvo to roll over. The VSA system is no different, its intention is to assist not to eliminate. But until the RDV offers a VSA system, I would knock it too much.
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    is our host, not a judge; :)

    But since we're taking outtakes from Edmund's:

    RDV
    Highway cruising yields a comfortable ride quality
    offers an expansive cabin and serious cargo capacity
    well-positioned radio controls
    Storage space up front is best-in-class, with a huge reconfigurable console, well placed netted map pockets and two large cupholders right where you need them.
    impressive 109 cubic feet of available cargo space
    bumper-mounted sonar
    superb automatic transmission

    MDX
    third-row seat is all one unit that folds flat, as well, but you must remove the headrests to do so
    considerably less enthusiasm for the interior's overall design
    "More functional than luxurious,"
    "typical Acura — well built, easy to use and painfully dull."
    82 cubic feet of usable space
    “luxury category, it takes a little more than just a practical design. If you never drove anything else, you probably wouldn't be all that disappointed, but compared to the other vehicles in the test, the MDX falls short in the luxury department.”
    MDX isn't a vehicle you aspire to
    wood is spectacularly fake,
    If I were looking for a car-based SUV and didn't care about a luxury brand or the ensuing price premium, I'd definitely wait (for the Pilot)
    MDX's noisy underpinnings didn't inspire confidence when crossing the rougher sections of dirt road
    MDX struck us as a vehicle intended for pavement,
    front seats to be comfortable enough, but over time, the cushion began to feel hard
    automatic climate control does not offer dual-zone operation for front occupants
    dash is constructed of low-gloss, deeply grained hard plastic, the latter a rather unpleasant surprise when you're paying $39K
    exhibiting as much flair as a bowl of Campbell's tomato soup

    Head on specs:
    RDV MDX 2002
    Turning Circle: 37.4 37.4
    Cargo 109 82
    Slalom 600ft 58.8 57.5

    They appear to be closely related (at least in the same class in delivery of Sports Utility Vehicle)
    Oh yeah, the RDV is $14,000 less expensive than the MDX.
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    I never said that the pilot was not a worthy SUV, in fact I look long and hard at the pilot before I bought the MDX. For that extra few thousand, it seems like it was worth the upgrade to Acura. Beside my wife didnt like the pilot's boxy look.
    By the way, the pilot doesn't offer dust sensing headlights and it does not have the rain sensing wipers. The 2003 MDX also offers dual piston front disc brakes. I have yet to find numbers between the MDX and pilot to do some braking comparison.
    I agree that there is very little distinction between the MDX and Pilot, but the difference in price was very small as well.
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    An aside, the VSA is nowhere the likes of the RSC (see MDX v XC90 discussion). I rode in the XC90 going 55mph and the driver did the emergency avoidance test. Now that's WOW factor. No way would I do that in any other current SUV. Surly it's not rollover proof, but a heck more than the VSA (that doesn't even have a anti-roll protection gyro in it, as you know).

    The point that you were making on the VSA is that you can't spin out with it.....oh yeah, you can. Take that picture for us. You should have plenty of snow up there right now ;)
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    is the first delineating factor to determine class. As Fedlawman had mentioned, the parameters of the luxury crossover (vs the near-lux crossover) compo included the cost.

    "Crossovers promise all the utility of a sport-ute with the ride, handling and comfort of a sedan. How far they lean toward one extreme or the other depends on the manufacturer, but, as we found out, there is no perfect ratio of one to the other. The fact that their sticker prices place them in the luxury category adds yet another element to an already complicated equation."

    It was the sticker price that put the three cars in the comparo together, and separated out the others....but certainly not economy SUV
  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    You keep putting up numbers from the 02 MDX, the 03 MDX numbers are much improved. You may doing so because the 03 RDV has stay the same. That is one major difference between the Buick and Acura is that Acura actually listens unlike you. It takes in the consumers' complain and improves on it. While Buick just keep putting out the same car with the same old problems.
    The list you post for the MDX are minor issues while the list I post about the Buick RDV are major design issues involving the power train, suspension and the fact that the Buick does not excel in any one area.
    The RSA and the VSA system are two different system, if you want to compare the Acura's stability system with Volvo's. Then you need to compare Acura's VSA with the Volvo's DSTC system. Keep in mine that the DSTC system does not utilize a gyro, that would be the RSC system.
    My point is that I can spin out the rear alot easier with the RDV than I can with the 03 MDX.
    By the way montreid, you keep making excuses for the Buick RDV. Have you ever read or seen anyone who classify the Buick RDV as a luxury SUV? And I mean in class ratings not a mere sentence or two. If so, please share it with us.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Comparing the RDV to the Subaru Outback is like pitting the Outback against the Mini Cooper...what were they thinking?
  • montreidmontreid Member Posts: 127
    "Acura actually listens unlike you."


    Anyways, the RDV is only in year 2....hardly time for the slow moving American company to make changes, let alone those major design flaws. Yet, the quick moving Japanese company took two short years to change. Ah, I see, in order for the American company to be the SAME as the Japanese company, it should have adjusted the RDV after the first year of production....sounds logical.

  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    You said, "I agree that there is very little distinction between the MDX and Pilot, but the difference in price was very small as well."


    Actually, the price gap between the base MDX and Pilot EX-L is $5000...but I digress.


    A few days ago you said:


    "The MDX is classify as a luxury SUV and the Rendezvous is more like a economy SUV...if you read any auto magazines...they compare the Rendezvous to SUV such as the Trailblazer, Pilot or the Bravada."


    Now a little help from Aristotle...


    If MDX = Pilot

    And Pilot = RDV

    Then MDX = RDV

  • hopeitsfridayhopeitsfriday Member Posts: 396
    I disagree, Subaru has been making AWD systems alot longer than Buick. Its a much more capable car in the snow. Again we do not make up these comparison, the auto experts did. So there must be something to to it, even though you dont like to admit to it. The reason for the comparison is again class of SUV and price. The top of the line outback is about the same price as the RDV. The outback offers a long history of AWD know how and the Buick offers bunch of options at a bargain basement price.
    By the way, the mini cooper is one of the hottest selling cars out there right now. How many record breaking sellers does Buick have?
    Again you are trying to compare the RDV to the MDX by using the pilot as a medium. Let me clear it up for you. The MDX is just a little better than the pilot and the pilot is just a little better than the RDV.
This discussion has been closed.