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Comments
How often, just before coming to a full stop, do you change your mind and decide to accelerate quite rapidly instead? During coastdown how often do you go quickly from coastdown to hard acceleration?
These are both rare circumstances, at least for me, so unless these circumstances occur, the "tranny" appears to shift just fine.
Suppose, for just a moment in time, that I am correct and the transmission is actually being shifted out of gear just before coming to a full stop. And let's further suppose that it will now be left out of gear as long as the brake is applied and/or the vehicle has come to a full stop.
Under this scenerio if I quickly get off the brake and quickly onto the gas (not necessarily WOT) just before coming to a full stop I may catch the transmission "out of gear".
Certainly then, the hesitation symptom would be more pronounced for left foot brakers. Absolutely no "fore warning", NONE, to the transmission ECU that I have changed my mind about coming to a full stop.
If this transmission is electronically controlled there should be a remedy for this.
Since I dont left foot brake, your scenario doesn't apply to me. There is most definitely a shifting problem with these trannys.
And its not all the 5 speed. The very fact that people are on these forums tells me that they are more informed, more aware, more conscious of their vehicles performance. Toyota may be playing percentages. and this small minority doesn't count.
What I was implying is that the symptom, assuming my theory is correct, would certainly be more prevalent for left foot brakers. With the specific circumstance, not quite coming to a complete stop, the shorter the time between brake lift and throttle application the more likely the symptom would be encountered.
And again, assume for just a moment that my theory is correct and this unique shift pattern was implemented intentionally to prevent loss of control of FWD vehicles on an icy, slippery, roadbed.
Think of the adverse PR that would be the result of an admission of the purpose of the modification to the shift pattern. Basically it would amount to indicting ALL FWD vehicles with a reasonably higher torque engine to be subject to loss of control.
What would the competitors, Ford, GM, Accura etc, etc, do and say? And keep in mind that it was Ford's stupidity in deflating the Exploders tires that actually caused those blowouts and rollovers, but in the end it was the tire company that took the "fall".
Something Toyota and Lexus have actually been saying/stating in their owners manuals for many years.
"higher traction on the front versus the rear can potentially lead to loss of control of a FWD vehicle."
Paraphrased and out of context but technically correct. The actual context is/was winter tires on the front but not the rear. But keep in mind that FWD vehicles ALWAYS have more traction on the front than the rear.
I don't think that it is purely an accident that at about this same time the AAA starting recommending that FWD owners with automatic transmissions practice and become comfortable shifting the automatic into neutral during these exact circumstances, an icy roadbed.
I have long argued that all road-going passenger vehicles follow the practice of most european manufacturer insofar as how the defog/demist system operates. When YOU activate the defog/demist function ONLY you know how serious the matter is, the windshield could be completely opaque, severely limiting your forward vision, or you might have only a light wisp of condensation on the bottom outside corners of your windshield.
In a European manufacturered vehicle, mostly BOSCH controls, when you activate defog/demist that will result in an extremely high volume of HOT airflow to the interior surface of the windshield, be it the hottest day of summer or the coldest night of winter.
In a vehicle with NipponDenso, Denso US, controls, your personal comfort is considered above, far above, your safety, so what you will get is a light flow of coolish, possibly dehumidified (not likely, but possible) air to the interior surface of the windshield.
So Toyota, not having any idea just what the roadbed surface might really be like at any given time, but knowing with absolute certainty that this circumstance is potentially the worse safety aspect of FWD vehicles, takes the best action with the mechanicals that is possible considering.
Of course they could have added an over-running clutch within the transmission as Cadillac did. This clutch prevents loss of control due to engine drag on their FWDs equipped with the HIGH torque Northstar engine, but that would have added weight and mechanical complexity to a transaxle already over-designed for low weight and compactness.
Is is because people have become lazy since there are not many manual trans out there??
I personally feel it is dangerous to use the left foot to brake while having the right foot near the accelerator pedal.
As to who uses the left foot to brake, wwest is right that it's not all that uncommon. My father, for example, has been left-foot braking for decades. He argues that it makes him a safer driver because, by keeping his left foot perched just above the brake pedal, he can brake more quickly. But if you follow him down the road, you will see that the brake lights flicker off and on.
Also I owned a few mid sixties Chrysler products with automatics. The only way to keep them running when it was damp was to keep your foot lightly on the gas, and brake with your left foot. Kind of funny when I think back. Fuel injection and electronics has certainly made cars more driveable.
My left leg will probably never "forget" the strength required to push the old Suby clutches all the way down, and would instinctively try to do the same with the brake. Bad news!
I said, assuming my theory is correct, the hesitation symptom would likely occur more often with left foot brakers. Zero time between throttle valve opening and brake release.
too much electronics on cars
As a last resort, I'd recommend writing down the radio pre-sets, as well as any radio security code - and then disconnecting the negative battery cable for a minute. (I don't know if the Toyotas have a security code; I have a Honda with that, so just a warning. I'm still shopping for the Highlander). But the power-cycle trick has worked for me before.
My mother was a left-footed braker (scary, her brake lights were always on!) and she said it was how she was taught to drive in the mid-1930's.
My comments strictly referenced how dangerous it is to use the left foot to brake.
Something in the back of my mind seems to say that the brake pedal was to the left of the "shift" pedal. If so then you shifted with your right foot and used the left for braking.
The hand break was usually on the far left side and involved pulling a rod to set it until they developed the foot emergency brake. Most of the cars I have owned had the emergency mounted on the central hump.
The last car I had with a manual shift was a 1996 Chevy Cavilier<sp> with the hand brake on the center hump.
With a manual transmission and a clutch pedal, it would be almost impossible to brake with the left foot since that foot was required to operate the clutch when stopping the auto.
I still think it to be dangerous to use the left foot for braking.
Go to:
http://www.modelt.org/kidcar.html
It had a spark advance lever on the left of the steering column, and a throttle lever on the right.
There were three pedals on the floor, and one of them was linked to a tranny control lever which operated somewhat like an aircraft control stick.
The three pedals were, as I remember, (1) Brake, (2) Forward, and (3) Reverse---in that order left to right.
To make the car go forward or backwards, you had to step on either one or the other of those "Go" pedals, but when you stepped on the forward pedal, the vehicle started out in "low", and when sufficient speed was achieved, you released the pedal and the tranny would automatically shift into "high." This same shifting control could be achieved using the tranny control "stick"--pulling on it to engage "low" gear, then releasing it when you wanted to shift to "High."
Braking could be accomplished in two ways--(1) By pressing the brake pedal, and (2) Pressing forward and reverse pedals at the same time--the car would stop instantly! (It was more effective than the mechanical brakes the car was equipped with)
The Model "T" transmission, in many ways , had features of automatics today---planetary gearing for one thing.
The engine ignition was a magneto system, with separate magneto coils for each of four cylinders.
"Tuning" the engine was accomplished by adjusting each magneto coil until it buzzed at a very high pitch--hence the latter day expression "Tune Up."
I restored the car to original and drove it as a display for several years before selling it to a collector. Kinda wish I still had it, even though it was the most cantankerous car one could imagine!
And yes, I know this is a Highlander forum, but the Model "T" pedal/stick control system is probably why some still use the left foot for braking.
Soooo just a little low on air in 1 tire seems to trigger this. If it continues to work this way, I like it. Lets us know if we have a tire low, or 1 with a slow leak before we wake up some morning to a flat we just didn't see coming.
The "Left Foot Braking" discussion is actually very interesting. But to just bring this back to the Highlander problem, I do have the Highlander "Hesitation" problem. Actually, my wife drives the vehicle and when she first complained about it, I just thought it was her driving "like a girl". But after a couple of times driving it myself, it certainly has a very bad case of the hesitation...and there are no feet on the brake. Although I've found that if you give the car a little gas whilst stopped, you can take off like a normal vehicle after taking your foot off the brake..apparently "pre-loading" the system fools some computer somewhere... I can't wait until Toyota finds a fix for this as it is a very dangerous problem when trying to jump into very busy traffic... This is our first Toyota...and if they don't fix it, it will be my last...it's that bad... Those of you who don't have the problem, knock on wood, you are very lucky...
Absent the installation of a clutch pedal, or some way, method, to "forewarn" the transmission ECU that the driver "now" wants to accelerate.
I was just reading about the new Volvo series, XC90 FWD and AWD. The FWD version completely uncouples the driveline the instant you apply the brakes and there seems to be a few complaints about the car remaining in neutral when gas is applied.
The Volvo AWD system has so many modes its hard to grasp. For instance as you accelerate into a turn the system biases the engine torque to the rear and then as you exit the turn more torque is routed to the front.
I am now more convinced than ever that what we are seeing is an attempt by all FWD vehicle manufacturers to reduce the instances of loss of control on slippery roadbeds due to inadvertent application of front braking.
Not stated in the article is that a bad ABS Sensor may give you a Low Tire Pressure warning. It would be a good idea to make sure this isn't your problem - for safety's sake.
"The only way to keep them running when it was damp was to keep your foot lightly on the gas, and brake with your left foot."
Sorry I misinterpreted your comment, junepeg. Are there no right-footed brakers on record as having the hesitation problem?
I'm willing to bet most of us with the hesitation problem are right-foot brakers.
Yet another occurence of the phenomenon this morning, pulling out in front of a long line of cars. Knew it was going to happen, so didn't freak out about it, just shook my head and wondered why Toyota hasn't sent me a platinum gilded letter inviting me to have the problem fixed at their expense and pronto.
The earlier post about the malfunctioning moonroof normalization procedure "cure" makes me believe there is a "back door" reset to some of the problems we see posted here. That one is apparently listed in the Owners Manual on page 34. It doesn't surprise me that the Toyota management doesn't spend much energy broadcasting this info from the Engineers in Japan. I've worked as a Field Engineer for 4 foreign-owned high-tech companies in the last 14 years, and it's amazing how close to the vest some info is kept. Don't forget that Toyota USA is only a distributor for much of the product here - and does very little of the nuts-and-bolts design engineering.
I should explain that it's my opinion, and mine only; I don't expect everyone to agree, and I don't intend it to be a condemnation of other's opinions or comments on the issue. On the contrary, I fully respect other's comments, and the concerns of those who are unhappy with their HLs because of their experiences.
The short answer to the dilemma is to choose another make and model if the hesitation reports are of concern.
I can guarantee, however, there are equally controversial and negative concerns being expressed about many, if not all, other makes and models too.
Here's my take on the "hesitation" issue:
Somewhere between two and three hundred THOUSAND Highlanders are on the road at present.
Somewhere between twenty five and thirty five hesitation experiences have been reported in all the Edmunds forums, noteably this one.
Many more owners, including yours truly, have neither reported nor experienced similar problems.
The single fact that only a small percentage of reports are made leads to the conclusion that it isn't occurring in most HLs, and because hesitation isn't widely experienced it isn't likely a design problem. These vehicles are all produced to the same design and manufacture specifications, and any deviation would be an anomaly, not a universal situation.
The common denominator on the hesitation reports seems to be that it apparently can be induced under a very unique and specific set of circumstances.
These circumstances, when reported,are summarized in the following statement:
"Decelleration with no throttle applied until tranny is in low gear, then full throttle application. At that point there might be up to "one to two second hesitation" (reports vary from momentary to the full two seconds) at which time full power occurs."
Toyota has acknowledged reports, and apparently is looking into it with the idea that some kind of fix "may" be developed.
My guess is that Toyota's fix, if and when it ever happens, will be a TSB reprogram of the Eprom control chip which will prevent the phenomenon from being induced under any circumstances.
I further speculate that most owners have never, and won't likely ever, experience the hesitation.
I believe it may have been reported early on by a few owners who by coincidence managed to induce the hesitation, then subsequent followers of those reports went out and tried to induce it themselves. Some actually did, and reported their results also.
Now there's a full blown controversy over it, but I honestly believe it's being inflated out of proportion.
Is it a common problem? No. In fact I think it takes some effort to induce it, as opposed to it happening often.
Is it systemic across the board? Not at all. Too many owners aren't experiencing it.
Is it the life threatening safety issue some claim exists? I don't think so, nor do I think any Public Agencies would think so either.
Having said all that, to those who are considering a change, avoid undue and unnecessary anxiety. Choose someone else's product. I don't think Toyota would mind.
Also, just because an individual personally cannot replicate the problem does not mean it does not exist nor does it mean it is not widespread nor does it lessen the seriousness. I see similarities here with the sludge problems in Toyotas. No one other than Toyota muckety-mucks knows how widespread sludge is either, but many who did not have the problem got downright nasty with those who did. I know it hurts some people’s pride to hear bad comments about a vehicle That they love, but it just shouldn’t be taken so personally (and maybe they shouldn't hang out at message boards for "problems".
I empathize with all those experiencing the problem. Whether widespread or not, many of those who have made reports of the problem here have been placed in dangerous situations due to the hesitating transmission (just read a few of these near miss reports!) and this should be remedied by Toyota ASAP. If it is not widespread, just think how inexpensively Toyota will get off on a fix! How bad can it be to fix what hopefully is just a small number of problematic transmissions and avoid the potential for even one serious accident?
But I appreciate the respectful way you tried to make your case. Thanks.
Basically you seem to be saying that since there are not enough owners REPORTING (we have not idea how many maybe experiencing the problem and not reporting) the problem then it likely doesn't exist, and/or you're drawing conclusions about it not being a design flaw based on too little information.
I am definitely on the other side of the fence but then again I have posited my ideas as theory only. But admittedly as I see more and more information I am coming very close to making a conclusive statement that this mod is to prevent instances of loss of control of FWD vehicles due to engine compression braking on slippery surfaces.
And again, over the years I have become so used to the "upshifting" symptom my 01 exhibits that I really do have to remember to pay special attention in order to really noptice it's slingshot effect during coastdown and/or the feel of being bumped from behind just before coming (slowly)to a full stop.
Went to dealer, but could not reproduce the problem there, they are saying they cannot do any thing unless they see it. One more thing I noticed it happens only when it very cold, on a hot days its fine.
Any one here faced this problem, or has any suggestions:
Its 2004 V6
As for your suggestion that I simply run out and buy a new car, well, the 32K that I spent on my HL is now worth 28K or less. It's a huge hit to just run out and buy a new car when I've only just done precisely that six months ago. There is your solution, and there is economic reality. Wwest has useful suggestions, pilot130 thinks psychotherapy is the way to go. Not very useful as far as solutions go.
Have there been any accident reports attributed to the issue? None that I know of.
Has there been any consistent data regarding how long the hestitation occurs? Estimates range from 'momentary to two seconds'-- even in the few instances where intervals are mentioned, there's no consistency.
Is it a characteristic free wheeling situation inherent is most similar 4WD systems, to maintain control in decelleration mode when there are slippery conditions? Perhaps, but that's just a theory at this juncture.
Are first time 4WD drivers being fooled by the differences in operating characteristics of those vehicles? Perhaps. Another theory?
Saying that "not many people read Edmunds may explain why there are only a few hesitation reports" isn't a valid explanation IMO, because Edmunds is one of the most widely reviewed and highly respected cartalk sites in North America. If the issue was more prevailent,we would undoubtedly hear much more about it in this site.
Again, I'm speaking from what I've seen and learned here; Experienced first hand with my own HL; Learned from speaking with service personnel at several dealerships (not all Toyota BTW).
This issue was first raised a while back--about page 80 of 113 so far in this forum, so it's a relatively recent development. The first 2/3 of this forum didn't mention it.
Wwest, you were one of the first to comment on an early report, where you stated your SUV had a minor "lurch" on WOT from very low speed, but you also advised that it wasn't an unusual problem, nor did it cause you any grief.
Following those first reports, others came forth with observations like "Mine does the same--or acts similarly"--about 25 to 30 to date.
Several of these stated it wasn't noticeable until the issue was raised--several others claimed their Toyota vehicles weren't HLs, but acted the same way---power of suggestion at work perhaps?
Still others have stated they don't have the problem, and can't seem to induce it no matter what they try, in fact, you will find that the number who report they don't have the problem exceeds those who report otherwise.
Others have said "I had the problem but it disappears when I select 'Snow' mode."
I know of no reports of hesitation in major Consumer Polls, no one in the service business who I've talked with acknowledge it, and even Toyota has said they know of the reports, are looking into it, think it may have to do with driver habits, but are looking into some kind of preventive fix which will eliminate any possibility of its occurrence. (This at least shows they are approaching the issue in a responsible manner, does it not?)
There are some very good insights into Toyota 4WD systems in opening posts by Cliffy, placed there when the forum entitled "Toyota 4WD Systems Explained". These are worth reviewing if there are any who missed them. You might find them enlightening.
At this point, I don't think there's enough info or data to categorize the issue as a design problem, or suggest that it isn't anything other than a 4WD characteristic that happens to occur under certain operating circumstances.
I'm still of the opinion it may be overblown, but I am open to any solid and factual evidence to the contrary.
And yes WBAY, I'm trying very hard to be polite; I am not by any means an apologist; I have no agenda other than to seek facts and learn something; I'm not suggesting nor do I think anyone is 'imagining' their problem; I'm definitely not advocating psychotherapy as a solution; And finally, submitting an objective opinion on this issue isn't a criminal offense that I know of......!
Just because someone doesn't agree is no reason to resort to intentional taunts.
1. Is the hesitation problem prevalent?
2. Is it a design problem?
3. Is it a safety concern?
I think the answer to #3 is a resounding yes! Read the reports of hesitation here and it will be apparent to you that these people were placed in positions of peril due to the hesitation. Don’t limit yourself to Edmunds, though, try an internet search. The problem is not limited to reports here on Edmunds as earlier implied. Reports of the problem can be found at various car talk sites, consumer complaint sites, and newspaper articles.
With the answer to #3 being yes, the answers to #1. and #2. really don’t matter to the person experiencing the problem, do they? If consumer safety is at stake it means something needs to be done to fix it, no matter how prevalent and no matter what the cause of the hesitation (be it due to design or manufacturing or be it categorized as a problem or quirk).