Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Oil Filters, whose is best, and Why?

1235749

Comments

  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Glad you are enjoying it.

    tom
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Thought you'd never ask!

    Oil filter paper (and paper for most other filter applications) is grooved to help keep the pleats separated and provide a channel of flow for the oil (or whatever fluid is being filtered). Also, grooving stiffens the paper in the direction that the grooves run, helping to keep the pleats oriented properly. A third advantage is the extra surface area that you get with pleated paper vs. unpleated paper (this is a small factor in oil filters, because we get don't depend on strictly surface filtration- there is depth filtration in an oil filter, meaning that dirt is trapped and held inside the paper, not just on the surface).

    tom
  • ro22tolro22tol Member Posts: 24
    Tsjay, Just want to say thanks for all the info you have provided. I am still curious as to what brand you use on your personal car!

    Thanks again for all the info.,,
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    You're welcome.

    tom
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    I agreee with "ro22tol" what brand do you use. This is not giving an opinion and or you should not feel that you would be fired for stating what brand of filter you use. For all we know you get them free and take whatever is free!

    What brand do you use on personal cars or do you just go to quick lube or dealers for the change???????
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    My, aren't you the persistent one?

    OK, I will reward your persistence, but you will be disappointed with my answer.

    I have used filters from all of the major manufacturers over the years. I have "spread my business around." Up til now, I have never used a "premium" filter! Just the average, everyday filter that can be bought at a Walmart.

    Often, as you guessed above, armtdm, I have just taken vehicles to a quick lube, and whatever they put on for a filter is what I got. This is mainly on my wife's car and my son's car: I just stay after them to be sure to have their oil changed on time, and they go to a quick lube.

    For my own vehicle, I usually buy my own oil and filter and have the oil changed at a GM dealer in the town where I work. They change the oil and do a lube job for $5.95, when you have your own oil and filter. (Great deal, huh?) I have recently learned that the little shop just down the road about half a mile from my house will do the same for $7.00, and they are open on Saturdays, so I will probably start going there.

    I just bought my first ever premium filter and will use it on the next oil change on my '89 S-10 pickup that has 138K miles on it.

    I also bought some Valvoline Max Life oil, which is supposed to be good for high mileage engines. That will be my first experience with that stuff.

    It's not that I haven't thought premium filters were a good idea, nor was I just too cheap to pay a few extra bucks for one (although I am cheap): it's just that I haven't seen them sold at Walmart. That's where I usually buy my oil, and I have been too lazy to make an extra stop at an auto parts store to pick up a premium filter.

    tom
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    It would appear then that in the overall lubrication process and life of an enigine you basically don't believe that the quality of the filter makes any difference, that it is primarily the oil and how often you change it that counts .

    Actually, I may tend to agreee with that. The large particles of wear material say over 20-30 microns are what cause wear and would be caught by the cheapest filter. The small stuff, 10 micron or so, only become a problem when the total particle count gets so high (as a % of volume) that it affects lubrication. Changing the oil often with a cheap filter does the trick of removing wear particles which is probably why (given the vast majority of consumers change every 3000 miles) that Fram can still have devouted followers and sell crap! Perhaps a filter only makes a difference if you go beyond 3000 miles>

    Again, I remember in the 50s cars with no filters but the oil was changed every 1000 miles. We could probably go 3000 today with better oils and no filter and still get the same longevity.

    So, comments????????
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    You must have read something into my post that I did not intend to convey!

    "It would appear then that in the overall lubrication process and life of an enigine you basically don't believe that the quality of the filter makes any difference, that it is primarily the oil and how often you change it that counts."

    Of course the quality of the filter makes a difference! It's just that I believe several manufacturers make good quality filters. I haven't bought "junk" for my vehicles.

    I think filter makers for the most part have three categories of filters: bargain basement "economy" filters, "top quality" filters, and then the "premium" filters, which are not really better in the quality of their construction but will trap smaller particles because of the media that is used.

    I have always bought the top quality filters and have just now decided to try the premiums. I am not sure that the extra efficient filtering in the small particle sizes will contribute to the life of the engine, but it sure couldn't hurt. Like you said, a lot depends on the drain interval.

    I am a big believer in changing the oil frequently. I would rather do a little overkill than wonder later if I could have gotten more miles out of my engine by the inexpensive habit of changing my oil more often.

    tom
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    GM did a study in tetermining wear using filters which trapped lower micron particles. I am away from home right now and don't have that information right now. It was significant though.
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    I would be very interested in reading that article. Can you post a link, or do you just have a hard copy of it? Would be very interested in knowing the drain interval used in their study.

    I guess the "premiums" ARE worth the extra money.

    Let's hear more about it when you have the chance.

    thanks

    tom
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    The standard sheet was 105 lbs, like I thought, but the premium was heavier than I remembered: it was 133 lbs.

    tom
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    So if we were to put filters into three categories-- economy, top quality, and premium, where would the major brands fit? I'm talking about the marketing perspective as one way of slicing and dicing the filters into categories, and owners' perceived performance as another perspective. E.g. those fancy $10 Fram filters seem to be marketed as "premium" but my guess is that they are NOT premium performers.

    When I say "brands" I'm talking the brand label on the box, not the actual manufacturer.

    tsjay, I'm guessing your "top quality" category includes filters such as Purolator Pure One, AC Delco Ultragard Gold, etc.????
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    tsjay, your views seem to support the consensus among most of the knowledgeable contributors (I'm not among them) to the oil-related topics here: if you change your oil every 3000 miles, the filter does not matter very much. And to continue that thought, at more extended change intervals the importance of the filter increases exponentially. E.g. if you have a crap filter on there for 5k miles, you might be okay but the risk is there. If you're going 10k miles, you're probably in very dangerous and potentially harmful territory. Comments?
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Blue:

    Actually, the filters you mentioned are the ones I was referring to as "premium." The Pure One, Ultraguard Gold, Mobil 1, etc. are what I consider the premiums. You pay extra for these, and they trap the smaller particles of dirt at a much higher efficiency than the standard filters.

    The "top quality" filters I referred to are usually the ones that carry the manufacturer's name brand on them. I guess you would say they are the manufacturer's major product, or top-seller, I guess you could say. These are very good filters, but they just don't get the smaller particles like the "premiums" do.

    I wasn't aware that Fram made a $10 filter. It's probably fine, but I just wasn't aware that they had one that expensive. Do they advertise it much?

    tom
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    I know quite a bit about how to design paper to get a filter to a certain performance level in terms of efficiencies at various particle sizes and in terms of dirt-holding capacity, but how to relate filter performance to engine life is not my area of expertise.

    tom
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    Yes, I've been a BIG Blue Devil fan for 10-12 years. There aren't many of us in Michigan, that's for sure. I still remember that regional final vs. Kentucky like it was yesterday. Me at home, watching game with dad in basement, saying "Dad, you don't UNDERSTAND. They can't lose this game." Hill inbounds the ball, Laettner catches, spins, pivots the other way, lets it go... I think you know the rest.

    Sorry to get off topic.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    I've seen a little bit of advertising for this filter, but don't remember what model/line they it's called. My automotive experience is pretty recent (last 5 years), so to me "Fram" and "crappy filters" are synonymous. I don't care if it's their top-line filter or not; I assume they are all junk, or at least junk for the price.

    Pure Ones are available near me for $5 each. To me, that's good value-- not that much more than the "standard" filters available in the $3-4 range. I can't justify twice the price of Pure One for Mobil 1 b/c I'm not convinced it performs measurably or noticeably better.
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    I will never as long as I live forget that game!

    Damn that Laettner dude!

    tom
  • spokanespokane Member Posts: 514
    Thanks for information on the standard/premium paper comparison with respect to paper weight, porosity, and contamination amount per square inch. Another technical question, if I may; also regarding the comparison between standard and premium paper oil filter media. What comments can you make regarding the content of glass fiber and PET (polyester) fiber? Also, are these two components used in the form of continuous-filament yarns or are they chopped into short lengths and blended with the cellulostic fibers? Do some media types use other types of yarns or fibers that you can mention to this group?
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    Super Tech
    Saddle up, and ride for Waldomart.
    So Kentucky and the Carolinas actually play, what, basketball?
    What is the depth filtration capacity of that hoop net?
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Gotta be careful not to give away any secrets, OK?

    Most of the good, but less than premium, oil paper grades have no micro glass. I just happened to pick one that does have a tiny bit of glass when I showed the performance data a few posts back.

    The premiums can have up to 25% micro glass. We use several different glass fibers with a variety of fiber diameters. (Better not get too specific here.)

    The glass and the poly are both in the form of fibers, not continuos strands. Both the poly and the glass end up in the slurry of fibers that is delivered to the paper machine where the sheet is formed.

    When the pulp slurry is delivered to the forming fabric on the paper machine, the consistency is 0.3%. So, there's only 3 pounds of fiber in a thousand pounds of slurry! Lots of water has to be drained to form a sheet of paper.

    Our consistency is actually high compared to those of a lot of other paper machines making other types of paper products.

    The water that is drained is captured and re-used to dilute more pulp in a closed loop. When the paper is at about 70% to 75% water, it is a wet mat that has enough strength to be taken off the paper machine's forming fabric and sent through the steam cans for drying. The paper is just barely past the point where you can squeeze any water out of it with your hand at the point where the sheet leaves the paper machine's forming fabric and goes into the dryers.

    Obviously, we lose some water via evaporation in the steam can sections, so we need make-up water coming into the system.

    If you have never seen a paper machine in operation, you ought to go take a tour somewhere. It's a pretty neat process.

    tom
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    You betcha Kentucky plays basketball! Now, we are not exactly a football powerhouse, though.

    As a matter of fact, O.J. Simpson was trying to get to Lexington when he was in that white Bronco. He knew no one would ever look for a Heisman winner in Lexington!

    tom
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Just thought you guys might be interested in how we measure permeability of the various paper grades.

    Regardless of the end use application, whether it is oil, hydrualic, air, or fuel, we measure the sheet's AIR permeability. It's a lot cleaner and easier to test air permeability than to do flow tests with oil or fuel or whatever.

    A paper sample is placed in the test stand, and air is pulled through the paper until a 0.5 inch (inches of water) pressure drop is reached. The volume of air in cubic feet per minute per square foot of surface area that flows through the paper at the 0.5" pressure drop is what we call the sheet's "CFM" (cubic feet per minute) or "Air Flow."

    Fuel sheets can be as low as one or two CFM, and auto air sheets are often 120 to 150 CFM. Oil sheets are in the range of 20 (the "tight" sheets for the premium filters) to about 70 to 80 CFM. Most of the oil sheets are from 35 to 55 CFM.

    tom
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    Does it only have the glass and the poly? What about cellulose (paper)?

    BTW The article about the GM test is a Diagnetics article by James C Fitch P.E. It states:

    " In a related study on both diesel and automotive engines, General Motors reports, :compared to a 40 micron filter, engine wear was reduced by 50% with 30 micron filtration. Likewise , wear was reduced by 70% with 15 micron filtration."
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Almost without exception, the majority of the fibers in our paper grades are cellulose. One of our other mills has some products that have the majority of the fibers as synthetics, but I don't believe that stuff is used in automotive applications.

    We have a variety of wood fibers that we use. The combinations of the right fibers gives the desired performance for any sheet. We have the big southern pine fibers for bulk and permeability, and then at the other end of the spectrum are the northern hardwoods that are much smaller fibers and will give the sheet a tighter structure for efficiency. There are lots of fibers whose diameters are in between these extremes.

    Typically, there will be at least three or four different types of cellulosic fibers in a given grade of paper, and the premium sheets will also have glass and some poly.

    Now, about that study, I would think that the details of how the tests were conducted would be important to know before conclusions can be drawn.

    How long the same oil was allowed to be in the engine during the tests would be important. Did it simulate the normal oil change interval?

    tom
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    That was the only information given in the article. One would hope GM has the expertise to determine the amount of wear material which was lost. We (I) don't know the testing protocol (what wear parts selected, way in which they determined the wear, the type of engines, etc. So really its not much better than anecdotal information.
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    That's too bad that they didn't give any details about their study. How the test was conducted could make all the difference in the world as to how applicable the results might be to the average motorist.

    I have no problem believing that a high efficiency filter contributes to engine protection, but, like anything else, there has to be a point where going any further just doesn't gain anything. I don't know where that point is.

    What's the definition of a "40 micron" filter? I think it has to be 95% or 99% efficient at the nominal particle size, right? In other words, to be considered a 40µ filter, a filter would have to trap 95% or 99% of the 40µ particles. Well, ANY filter is gonna be at least a 40µ filter, so they are using an unrealistic base line for their comparison.

    Look at that table I posted. Just the standard filter was 99.99% efficient at 30µ. So, for all practical purposes, any decent filter you might buy would be a 30µ filter. That same standard filter in the table is 89% efficient at 20µ, so it almost qualifies as a 20µ filter. Well, OK, these are flat sheet multipass results and not filter tests, but the efficiencies in the actual filter should be about the same.

    tom
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    adc100:

    Something else about the GM study just occurred to me: they went all the way from 30µ to 15µ. They showed that the 30µ filter reduced wear from that of the 40µ filter by 50% and that the 15µ filter reduced it by 70%.

    How do we know that a 20µ filter wouldn't also show about the same 70% reduction as the 15µ filter?

    tom
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    I've caught up on this thread and have been fairly impressesed so far.

    I have a question, though. Have you seen a filter company (I know you won't name names) who's filter has a high build quality (the canister, valve, gasket, etc ... are all really well made and sturdy) but then specs out a rather cheap/poor-performing filter media?

    What percentage of the manufacturing cost of a given filter is the media? I know this must vary ... but can you give a range and an average?

    I guess what I'm getting at is that I look at the build quality (not the marketing hype) of a filter as a general indicator of it's ability to do its job. Have you even known this NOT to be the case? And, if so, to what degree?

    --- Bror Jace
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    I would say that quality filter construction and the use of good media tend to go together.

    The high efficiency premium filters aren't necessarily any better in construction than the standard filter from the same manufacturer, but the paper is more expensive and more pleats are used per element.

    I'm not sure how much of the total cost of the filter the media represents in relation to other components. I think labor is probably the biggest factor in the cost of manufacture.

    There really hasn't been all that much automization in the auto oil filter manufacturing industry. There are still lots of people on the assembly lines.

    Most large filter manufacturers make their own metal parts, which includes the canisters, the center tubes, the end caps, the springs, and the base plates.

    I know of at least one large manufacturer that makes their own plastisol.

    That's pretty much how the components break down: metal parts, paper, and plastisol. How they compare as far as cost per filter, I couldn't tell you.

    tom
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    which filter gets which of our grades of paper.

    A customer may have us develop a sheet for a specific filter, and we would normally know which filter that is. The customer often will take that same grade of paper and use it in another filter without our knowledge. That's their business, and we have no need to know what they are doing with the paper, unless they are trying to blame the paper for a performance problem that is actually a misapplication of the paper.

    tom
  • mrdetailermrdetailer Member Posts: 1,118
    Neither seems to absorb particles to me.

    Thanks TSJAY for this interesting information.
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Cellulose fibers don't "absorb" dirt either. Particles are trapped and held within the structure of the paper, the network of criss-crossed, twisted fibers.

    The glass is of such a fine diameter and is so nice and round in cross-section that it makes a lot of small pores. I guess you get lots more paths for the oil to flow through, but the paths are smaller diameter so that the larger dirt particles can't pass through.

    Imagine two pieces of ribbon that lie across each other as compared to two soda straws that cross each other. A structure composed of criss-crossed ribbons will be less permeable than one composed of criss-crossed soda straws. This is an exaggeration of the difference between the cellulose fibers (more like the ribbons) and the glass fibers (more like the soda straws).

    Cellulose fibers are not as two-dimensional as the ribbons in my example, but they are not as nice and round as the glass fibers.

    Realize that when we speak of "pores" in the paper, we are using an inaccurate term, but I gues we just don't know what other term to use. When I think of pores, I think of cylindrical openings that are continuos from one side of an object to the other. This is certainly not the case with paper. There is just a network of fibers oriented in every conceivable direction and they are not even in the same plane. The material being filtered has to change directions many times to find its way through the maze.

    We think this "torturous" path has a lot to do with the deposition of dirt particles in the fiber network. As the oil hits a "dead end" and has to change directions, it leaves behind some of the suspended dirt particles.

    I will try to find some pictures taken through a microscope of a sheet of filter paper to post.

    As far as the poly, it tends to be round in cross section like the glass, but it is of much larger diameter. It is usually included in the sheet for the purpose of increased "toughness" for the paper, so that the flex fatigue and burst strength of the paper are enhanced. Remember, the filter paper spends its life in hot engine oil, and it could become brittle over time, making it susceptible to rupture or tear.

    tom
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    "We think this "torturous" path has a lot to do with the deposition of dirt particles in the fiber network. As the oil hits a "dead end" and has to change directions, it leaves behind some of the suspended dirt particles."

    If you get the idea that there's a lot about the mechanics of filtration that we just don't understand, you're right.

    tom
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Guys, I will be on the road tomorrow night and Wednesday night, so I won't be posting for a while. It may be too late Thursday night when I get home to do much, if any, posting.

    So, post your questions while I'm gone, and I'll try to answer them when I get back.

    Several of you seem very interested in this stuff, and all I can say is... get a life! :)

    Seriously, I am surprised that you are so interested in this stuff. I am interested because I make my living at it, but I didn't think anyone else would find it interesting. I'm glad you do enjoy it, though, and I will share what I can with you.

    You guys be good and I'll be talkin' to ya when I get back.

    tom
  • bnosytbnosyt Member Posts: 23
    Here is a question for you, can you tell the difference between the higher quality filter paper and the lower quality paperby looking at it? If so, how? I have been known to tear into an old filter to take a look at the inside.
  • sinjin_dogsinjin_dog Member Posts: 84
    Great information, thanks
    Now, I see Bosh brand filter for about $5.50 (it says fiberglass/paper) and Mobile1(fiberglass with up to 10 micron at about 96%).
    The question is use two Bosh filters (change at 3000 miles) or use one Mobile1 (6000 miles).
    I am using Mobile1 syn oil. I think using two Bosh filters are way to go than one Mobile1, what do you think?
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    There wouldn't really be any way to visually determine the quality of the paper in an oil filter. You can tell about the quality of the filter construction, though.

    If the pleats are nice and straight and evenly spaced around the center tube, then you have a well made filter. Also, try to see if the paper is torn where it is anchored in the plastisol at the top and at the bottom. There shouldn't be any tears, obviously.

    tom
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    I can't play favorites, as I have said in earlier posts. We sell to almost every one of the filter makers, and I cannot afford to tick any of them off.

    I won't say your info is wrong on the efficiency of the Mobil 1, but I am sceptical about the 96% efficiency at 10µ. The filter may have 96% efficiency on the J806 test, which does not classify by particle size, but I doubt that they claim to be 96% efficient at 10µ.

    The J806 test (I think they have renamed it now) circulates contaminated oil through the filter like the multipass test does, but the efficiency is determined gravimetrically and not by particle counting as in the multipass test.

    In the J806 (or whatever it is called now), samples are taken upstream and downstream of the filter, and the oil is diluted in petroleum ether and strained through a millipore filter to catch all the dirt. The weight of the dirt contained per unit volume of oil is compared for the upstream and downstream samples. No attempt is made to segregate the particles by size.

    tom
  • bnosytbnosyt Member Posts: 23
    Thanks tsjay for all of the info. I figured it would have been too easy to look at them and tell the difference.
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    The following is a link to the North Texas Prelude (Honda) Owners group.


    The person who did this seem to do a pretty good job making a comparison between the various brands but where I think he went off the reservation is in criticising OEM Honda, made-in-America Filtech filters. He admits they are well made but you you look at his whining about the "fuzzy" filter media and see if his opinion has any merit?


    I've found these to be of excellent build quality and they are my #1 choice for my Honda vehicles.


    http://www.ntpog.org/reviews/filters/filters.shtml


    I'd appreciate Tsjay and all others' comments.


    --- Bror Jace

  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Bror Jace:

    The guy IS off base in complaining about "fuzzy" media. Fuzzy is good.

    Filter paper has one side that is much softer and more irregular than the other, or, in other words, "fuzzier." When the sheet is formed, the bottom of the sheet is in contact with the forming fabric, and as the water drains through the sheet it pulls the sheet down against the forming fabric. We get drainage by gravity when the slurry first flows out onto the forming fabric, but we also apply vacuum, so there is more than just gravity pulling the sheet down against the forming fabric. The upper surface of the sheet is never in contact with anything as the sheet forms, so it is less compacted and has a rougher surface. (This is true for our type of paper machine, anyway. I think it would apply to any machine making filter paper, but other types of paper are sometimes made on machines that might form the sheet with some fabric on each side of the sheet.)

    The tighter, more regular bottom side of the sheet is called the "wire side." In the old days, everyone used a woven bronze wire as their forming fabric, but now almost everyone uses a woven plastic fabric. The term "wire" is still used, even though in most cases the fabric is plastic and not actually wire.

    The rougher, fuzzier side of the sheet is called the felt side. I don't know why it's called that, because both sides of the sheet make contact with felts in the steam can dryer sections. (Felts are used to hold the sheet snuggly against the suface of the dryer cans, so that there is effective heat transfer from the hot metal surface of the dryer cans to the water in the paper. The water then boils off as steam.)

    It can cause as much as 30 to 40 percent loss in dirt holding capacity if the paper is oriented so that the flow of oil goes from wire side through the sheet and out the felt side. You want the dirty oil to see the felt side of the paper first and flow out the wire side. Most oil filters flow from outside to inside, so you want the filter paper to have the felt side out and the wire side in against the center tube.

    It just makes sense that the nice soft, fuzzy side of the paper will catch and hold more dirt than the slick, tighter wire side. Think of paper towels vs writing paper. Which one absorbs a spilled liquid better? (That's a bit of an exaggeration, since there really isn't THAT much difference in the two sides of the sheet, but it illustrates the principle.)

    Although it is very unusual now, some of our customers in the past have actually asked us to saturate only the wire side of the sheet and leave the felt side without resin or with only spotty resin coverage. This can add both efficiency and capacity to the filter.

    The flow direction would tend to pull these loose fibers into the sheet and not pull them out of the sheet. They are actually not completely loose anyway, but are anchored mostly on one end.

    So, the guy is worried about nothing.

    tom
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    I forgot to mention in my previous post that we put lines of ink every two inches on the wire side of the sheet, so that the filter maker's assembly people can tell at a glance which side of the paper is which.

    tom
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    tsjay, your comments about fuzzy being good make me feel better. I've always used Isuzu brand filters (made by Filtech) for our Trooper, and I'd hate to think I've been using a crap filter for the past few years.
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    A few weeks ago I noticed that the AC-PF52 filter that my Chevy truck uses was different depending on if it was purchased as Kmart or Walmart...well I just cut the last 2 that I used apart to compare and there REALLY is a difference. The Walmart version looks like it has almost twice as much paper, the pleats are much more evenly spaced and they are obviously more fully packed.
    The holes in the inside tube are smaller than the Kmart version ,not sure if that would cause more backpressure or not , and the anti-backflow valve is different. If the Walmart Supertech is the same, I'd say it is a pretty good $2 filter compared to the Kmart version of the AC-PF52!
    OK back to the discussion.
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    You mean you have that "warm, FUZZY feeling?" :)

    (Be careful, though, cause sometimes that warm, fuzzy feeling only means that you have soiled your pants.)

    tom
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    The Pure One's are on sale until Nov 3 at Advance Auto Parts for a buck off (I think thats 4.94. PL-24011 BTW if you use the equivalent of a PF-47 and have the room- the PF-52/PL-24011 will work. Its about an inch longer. No relief valve for either and the head is identical.
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    I saw a flyer in PepBoys for a $1.50 rebate on PureOne, limit 2, makes them $4.50 each (I think they are $6 normally ), maybe the PureOilLater folks have been reading these posts and is making their move to capture the market!!
    I remember the pl24011 is the alternate for the pf52, I thought it was the same size though? The pf47 is a replacement for the pf52 (the pf47 is longer?)? If it is , I have plenty of room for a longer filter as long as it is not much (if any) wider..I'll probably be checking it in the next couple days I'm sure,
    thanks for the heads up
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    Were the filters for non-GM products? Were you able to discern their manufacturer, i.e. the Purolator string, or tell tale Champion Labs hole patterns?

    The AC Filter I saw disassembled at AutoZone was much like the one in the MoPar filter study, i.e. few but quite deep pleats. I assume they buy non-GM filters from a variety of sources and label them AC.

    Without saying what's good and bad, does this conform to your understanding of the filter market, Tom?
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    I know of at least two filter manufacturers that make the AC brand filters. There's Delphi, which is part of GM, and Champion Labs also makes them for AC. There could be others also, but I am only aware of these two.

    I don't know about the specs for the Delphi vs. the Champion Labs as far as pleat height, pleat width, and pleat count (square inches of media, in other words). I would assume the performance specs for efficiency and capacity are the same.

    Did you guys know that there are up to three sets of specs for a particular filter? There are original equipment- engine plant specs, original equipment, and replacement filter specs for some filters. I am not totally sure about the details, but I know that the original equipment- engine plant filters have the highest specs, and these, as you would guess, are the filters installed on the engines at the factory. The original equipment filters are the ones you get through car dealers, and the replacement filters can be bought at auto parts and discount stores.

    The filters would all look the same on the outside, I believe. Maybe there is some code or something to distinguish them.

    If someone out there can shed some light on this, please jump in here. Maybe I have something mixed up here.

    I'm sure that even the replacement filters are very good filters, because a big name auto maker isn't going to let crummy filters carry their brand name.

    tom
This discussion has been closed.