Oil Filters, whose is best, and Why?

bigorange30 · March 2003

Over 250K miles I will only spend about $367 on mobil1 filters and only $267 more than cheap paper filters. Do I want to spend that to avoid a possible $1000 repair at 250K? Certainly! However, an engine rebuild or replacement costs much more than $1000. Will I keep the car 250K miles? I don't know but that is my goal on my latest purchase.

ruking1 · March 2003

The figure was based on 3000 mile intervals and the price difference in Mobil One filters (15 per vs 2 per) so obviously any change in any of these variables will change the numbers.

A further aside in my case is in 250k miles I use 17 filters (15k intervals vs 84 filters 3k intervals) so again to put numbers to it 34 dollars vs 255. or at 3k intervals 168 and 1260.

Having run a TLC for app 250k miles with 17 FRAM filters and Mobil One synthetic oil with 15k intervals, I had 2200 dollars in unscheduled repairs. NONE were oil related. If you want the actual parts, I can list, but I don't want to bore folks.

Keep in mind that a 1000 dollar repair (or more) may or may not be guaranteed and whether it is forstalled or not is definitely not guaranteed. (this sentence is where the critical path actually leads)

Again on an older 70Vw using conventional 30w oil and NO oil filter (oil screen for those that are familar) I went 255k miles and had even less in dollar unscheduled repairs again NONE were oil related !!!! I needed a clutch at 115k and it cost 109 dollars and a case of Heinken

The Heinken was consumed AFTER the repair.

bigorange30 · March 2003

So I don't consider that case relevant. Using 3K in the calculation could only be done because you wanted your case to appear more dramatic.

I realize the large repair is not gauranteed but just reducing the chances of it are attractive to me.

kentzzs · March 2003

I just received some Bosch filters through internet order. As I know, for 97 Accord, the part number for Bosch filter should be 3312. However, the filter I got is marked as Bosch 72168 and made by Robert Bosch. Is this a real Bosch filter?

-Kent

bigorange30 · March 2003

He is willing to spend $1566 instead of $671 over that same 250,000 miles on oil (assuming 3000 mile change interval vs. 7000 and 5.25 qts/change as mine is) for a difference of $895 with no evidence that it will improve anything. Then he wants alot of evidence to help him decide to spend extra money for a mobil1 filter? That just makes no sense.

Americanflag's arguement is not one of cost as he has proven cost is no object. His arguement is one that says higher flow is more important than better filtration. That's the only point worthy of debate here.

ruking1 · March 2003

#2134

Perceptive! you say I don't use 3k intervals when I have told you several times that I use 15k intervals? How many times do you need to hear 15k intervals and really get that the 3k is what is commonly touted as being correct? So, if you don't mind sharing what intervals do you use? Or more germane to the discussion what do you think most folks use as an interval? To reject the augment and logic because the figures are not exact is very short sighted.

deminin · March 2003

I had a slightly different condition with the wifes little town car. She had a 93 Escort wagon we bought new. I changed the oil and filter every Spring and Fall. I used the Motorcraft filter, and Pennzoil 10w30. Before we bought her a new car a couple of months ago, I pulled the valve cover, expecting to find some sludge...the car had only 29,000 miles after 10 years. There was none..just the slightest brown film on the aluminum that wiped right off. This oil/filter combination seemed to work great in this little engine.

bigorange30 · March 2003

is 7-8k. Mobil1's gaurantee says that you can go to normal driving intervals even if you drive in severe conditions. That is 7-8k in most all owners manuals.

ruking1 · March 2003

#2139

Mine is 15k max or one year. Mobil One is specified. Up to 15k and or one year is in the owners manual.

bigorange30 · March 2003

So why even talk about 3k intervals.

ruking1 · March 2003

Again look at prior posts, if not 3k then what? You do 7-8k. We have a pretty good feeling that most think 15k is extreme, so again if not three then? You are the one who is seemly hung up on the number!? Pick a number any number and do the math calculation.

bigorange30 · March 2003

and did the calculations. Post # 2132 shows the calculations based on 7500 mile changes.

ruking1 · March 2003

Be that as it may, I would not hang my hat on it. Basically it has been shown to be cheaper by one half and I have gotten to 250k with no problems. The pay off for me is I changed oil and filter 17 times to your 34 times. And on another went 250k on conventional ! And because it didnt need filters I saved 84 filters!! But boo hoo had to change the oil 84 times!!!

So for me, it is getting as easy as: see where you wish to be and pay your money and take your chances. I think at this juncture of 2144 postings, we pretty much know how the products function.

americanflag · March 2003

My concern is it flows less oil and also may go into bypass more than the Motorcraft or similar filter. I think this is a legimate concern.

Orange, if you change out your K&N this soon, you aren't giving it a chance to hit it's peak performance. As it gets dirtier, it filters better. Also, how do you know your engine analysis will not come back with low Si?

Alot of enthusiast use the K&N Air filter and do NOT use the Mobil 1 oil filter.

bigorange30 · March 2003

Each of us has to weigh the evidence and put our money and faith in the technology that we believe is best and will give us the best results for our money. If that's what your saying, I certainly agree and I think that's basically where we have to let this be.

ruking1 · March 2003

#2145

The truth is while it is a valid concern, it is baseless. Let me put it another way. IF Mobil One oil filters cost like what AC Delco PR-44 and PF-53 and or Super Tech ST equivilents @1.97 I would RUN to buy Mobil One filters. For my .02cents I would strongly consider Mobil One oil filters even at twice the price (4 dollars) They ARE better made and also they do filter better and flow the correct volume of oil. (In all fairness, the others flow the correct vol of oil, also) I frequent two Corvette forums and no one who uses Mobil One filters reports loss in oil pressure due to Mobil One oil filters. The population also uses synthetic oil. Again Corvettes are equiped with an oil temperature as well as oil pressure gauge. For the amount of power these engines can generate at 6200- 6500 rpm and torque 385-400 # ft, oil flow is even more critical.

bigorange30 · March 2003

Ruking1: mobil1 filters are great products but they are too expensive.

Americanflag: mobil1 filter price would not be an issue if they were really better. The tighter filtration restricts the flow to the point that it is unhealthy for the engine. Post #2147 should put that to bed.

me: I agree with ruking1 and his assessment of the quality. I don't believe he is underestimating the quality and performance of the mobil1. I, however, am willing to pay the small increase in cost because of the potential that this better quality MIGHT deliver long term.

I don't think there is any other evidence that any of us are going to bring to bear to convince either of the other of us to change. Therefore, how about let's move on to another subject.

zr2rando · March 2003

I change oil every 3k miles, and I use WallyWorld filters (Years ago kmart and Walmart used cheap frams, but now they use Wix/Champion well made filters..)
Ok, confession over.
Motor oil going around an internal combustion engine picks up carbon/water/combustion by-products...filters only take out solid particles, nothing else. A clean filter takes out particles at whatever size it is rated to take out, and after it gets a little dirty it starts taking out some smaller particles due to partial blockage due to particulate load.
Filters do not have any effect on PH or detergents or deterioration of oil due to vaporization of lights or oxidation....

Changing the oil is the only way to get the oil back to new specs.

A high efficiency filter will take out more particles from the git-go and do a better job of keeping the oil physically clean starting from day-1 than a filter with a lower efficiency...

Any excessive dirt/carbon producing engine will fill up a high efficiency filter quicker, unless the high efficiency filter has added media to enable a longer service life.

It's a personal call how long you want to count on a given filter to take out whatever particle size you are concerned with before you need to change out filter/oil/ or filter & oil....

Some oils may actually resist oxidation/ph change/detergent degrade better than others, but the filter is only working on physical particles..only a press. diff. indicator can tell you when the filter is full,, and a bypass would have activated by then anyway....sending unfiltered oil down the line...

long story short- I change oil at 3k miles so I don't care about exact timing and maximum efficiency usage of oil/filters... I just don't push it in other words.

Like I said before, the application determines the required equipment, my application dictates 3k changes($7 a pop) work just fine. Others would benefit from other (longer intervals or higher efficiency filters..)which is fine as well.. Modern equipment and newer materials does give us more options, but old fashioned mechanics and physics and chemistry still hold true....
Rando

armtdm · March 2003

I have two oil analysis to date where I changed the oil at 12,000 miles with a new filter at 6000 miles. Current oil and filter have about 9000 miles and I will change both at 12,000. I will bet the analysis will come back about the same as the previous two where I changed the filter at 6000 miles. So far about 6 1/2 months have elapsed since the last change.

bluedevils · March 2003

There are LOTS of gearheads who love their vehicles and feel that they are giving their car 'the best' by using Mobil 1 and changing it every 3,000 miles. Do not underestimate this. Not all Mobil 1 users run it the 'typical' (as you said) 7-8k miles.

bigorange30 · March 2003

americanflag · March 2003

the Mobil 1 oil filter and change the oil every 6,000 miles, or;

use Mobil 1 oil, a regular quality filter and change every 3,000 miles?

knapp3 · March 2003

American, what counts is engine wear. Not the brand you use. Why change a great oil like Mobil 1 every 3K when the engine will wear just as well (or should I say, just as "less") when it's left in longer? How long? Only your hair dresser... er, ah, oil analysis can say for sure. I mean, check out this Mobil 1 study as an example:

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html

If you want to change your oil every 3K, and probably nothing wrong with that as Rando points out, why spend the $$$'s on Mobil 1 when so many other quality dino oils...Castrol, Pennzoil, Chevron, etc., will generate the same or better wear results as Mobil 1 for less $$$? I mean look at the UOA results at Bob's place for Chevron oil. Or Castrol results at the Maxima. org site. Not bad!

Rando is right. Its a personal call. Just don't over analysis it. Either way, you won't be wrong. Good luck.

bluedevils · March 2003

Gives them a warm fuzzy. And lightens their wallets. It sure seems like overkill to me, though.

I mentioned it only because you dismissed the 3,000 interval in ruking's example. Sure, ruking doesn't employ a 3k change interval, but many people do. So it seems relevant, at least in my view, to include a 3k change interval in a discussion on filter cost. 3k IS a common interval, even for many synthetic users.

bigorange30 · March 2003

That's why I don't see it as reasonable to use 3K in a reasonable ECONOMIC calculation with mobil1 oil. Yes, some may use that interval but its because they are misinformed that it might actually give them better performance. Its seems much more appropriate to do a performance vs. cost evaluation.

abc246 · March 2003

I just bought a few Wal-Mart oil filters and a few Fram mid grade oil filters at Wal-Mart. The Frams are gray with a black grip coating on the end. I noticed that the single (possibly 97% - I cant remember these numbers exactly) and multipass efficiency (possibly 99%) for both are exactly the same and even use the type of wording. The orange Fram has lower single (possibly 95%) and multipass (possibly 97%) pass efficiency. I seems that the Wal-Mart is the same filter as the mid-grade Fram, but that goes against what is stated on these posts.

fwatson · March 2003

Look at the hole pattern on the mounting plate and up into the center hole. It will be obvious whether or not they are the same, which I doubt. For that to be true Fram would have to be subcontracting out to Champion Labs.

I don't have the filters you have in your possession, but I have compared these filters and unless they have changed they are not the same. It is possible to have the same specs on paper without having anything else in common.

ruking1 · March 2003

#2158

I have never made it a secret that "economics" has been one of the weighed values in this topic of engine lubrication and filtering. Usefulness has been another. There is simply so much choice with today's superior synthetic and conventional oil and superior and cheaper filtering products, one certainly does not have to stick to the old tried and true 3k interval. Using my 70 VW example the practice has been outmoded for at least 33 years. While brought up in the "old" school since I was a boy, I for one think the good old days of lubrication is NOW !!!! I have helped my father de gunk FAR too many sludged engines (before you can adequately repair them. to think otherwise.

So for example, in the case of Mobil One, K and N, AC Delco, Wally Mart Super Tech, etc (I do not intend to leave any others out or intimate that others are not synthetic when they indeed are) have all been synthetic media for a while. Convention as well as synthetic oil now have the SL rating. What does that mean in terms of the old 3k mile parameter? SL ratings have to pass a RIGOROUS torture test where the oil has to remain clean and usable for 4,000 miles !!!!!!! Trust me, the average consumer is not going to torture it as greatly as the test calls for. What is the usefulness of this new 4,000 mile parameter? If you change your oil at 3k you are leaving 33% of your MONEY on the table !!!!!!! In other words you are not getting 1000 miles of lubrication that you have already paid.

But if you look at the options and choices the numbers become MUCH WORSE. Rando posted that he pays 7 bucks a pop for a 3k oil change. I would assume a wallymart filter at 1.97 and buck a quart of oil for 5 qts =7 bucks a pop. OK sound cheap enough? Me on the other hand for a 15k oil change pay 2 bucks a pop for a AC Delco or wallymart filter and 3.67 per quart for 7 qts= 27.69 . GEEZ Obviously I am getting ripped off on one hand and paying a premuim (to be nice and civil). The numbers might hide the real truth. PER MILE LUBRICATED is the real product, good and or service. So the upshot using the above intervals is that the conventional oil change costs 26% MORE "per mile lubricated" than the much more expensive synthetic oil change.

bigorange30 · March 2003

I couldn't have said it better myself. This is what I have saying on these oil boards for the past year.

abc246 · March 2003

Here is my problem. I have been using mostly AC Delco filters and Mobile One 10-30 synthetic oil since new in a 99 Blazer 4.3 V-6 that now has 82k miles. I have been changing the oil at 9k intervals. This winter when the SUV had 80k miles I start it one morning to a loud knock that goes away after about 1 min. It seems one of the lifters is leaking down or making a noise. There is no noise the rest of the day or when warm or hot. The SUV will make this knock now every time it is cold (below freezing). I switched from AC Delco to the mid grade Fram oil filters a few oil changes ago because Wal-Mart does not carry my AC Delco anymore.

So, would I have been better off changing the oil at 4.5k intervals using regular oil? I think so in this case. Does synthetic oil make your engine last longer? I doubt it. I have never seen one wear out with regular oil changes. I was tiring to extend the drain intervals for convenience using Mobil 1.

zr2rando · March 2003

while I change my oil....I'll be under the truck..
Y'all be standing around goin...uh huh, yup, I told him he's just throwin it all down the drain!
I'll say nop, it's a goin rit down this here hole I dug, and in about amillion years I'm gonna use it agin!!
Y'all git me anuther beer wud ya?
I guess I'm old school huh?

Y'all enjoy the afternoon..

according2me · March 2003

If this noise started after switching to Fram, go back to the AC filter. It may be the anti-drainback on the Fram isn't doing a good job. Find your AC filter somewhere else and try it, even if it is a few bucks more. Then you'll know for sure if it was the Fram causing this noise on cold startup.

bigorange30 · March 2003

Well, what did your oil analyses say that led you to believe you could go 9k between changes? Was the TBN above 2.5 after 9k? Were the wear metals very high after 9k? How was the viscosity at that point? Unless you know all of this kind of information, you have no idea if it could be oil related or not.

ruking1 · March 2003

#2163

No sir! If you had been using the conventional oil at winter temperatures you would have created even more of a metal on metal on goo (conventional oil when cold, flows like molasses) stress! It is obvious that you have a mechanical concern that should be diagnosed isolated and fixed if need be. You could do oil analysis but in that sense it might be a tad late in that the oil analysis is useful for TREND management, you dont have a trend you have a perceived problem!!! So I would bring it into my fav mechanic. Best of luck! Let us know what it is once you have it confirmed.

ruking1 · March 2003

#2161

Quote

"So the upshot using the above intervals is that the conventional oil change costs 26% MORE "per mile lubricated" than the much more expensive synthetic oil change."

Unquote

To keep with an apples to apples comparison I should have figured the synthetic at 5 qts to equal the conventional's 5 quarts. So when you do the math: the conventional oil change costs 42% more than the seemingly more expensive synthetic oil change !!!

Gee, it was FAR WORSE (38%) than I even thought!!

bigorange30 · March 2003

No one should take their car to 9k change intervals without it. If the oil was worn out at 9k or before (not sure it should be with mobil1) and he took it through 9 oil changes like that, then he could have caused a problem. If he didn't do the analysis, its too late to prevent the problem but its not too late to find out if that was his problem. Get the lifter fixed. Then run for another 3k or so and change the oil. This will make sure the lifter is seated well and gives it a chance to do its initial wear. Then run for 9k, drain and analyze.

I really doubt that the oil has caused this problem.

zr2rando · March 2003

I heard my wife crank the Blazer one morning and heard that distinctive startup lifter tick.. she looked at me like a cow at a new gate..I asked her how long it had been doing it, she said it only had done it that time.
I just changed the oil and it took about a week and stopped. If it only ticks 1-2 times after sitting overnight and then quiets up, I would just do a couple quickie oil changes to try and do some easy cleaning, if it ticks longer you may want to check the lifters and the pushrods and replace or clean as neccessary..
I'd be a little leary of the 9k oil changes personally

bluedevils · March 2003

Very interesting choice of words: "because it's [3k synthetic change interval] overkill." While I agree, and said so in my prior post, some would say the same thing about spending $10-12 for a Mobil 1 oil filter. It seems inconsistent for you to dismiss the 3k Mobil 1 user while having no problems paying $10-12 for an oil filter when $2-5 would buy what most folks consider to be a very good filter (SuperTech, PureOne, Bosch, Wix, etc.).

The rest of your post: "That's why I don't see it as reasonable to use 3K in a reasonable ECONOMIC calculation with mobil1 oil. Yes, some may use that interval but its because they are misinformed that it might actually give them better performance. Its seems much more appropriate to do a performance vs. cost evaluation."

I don't really care what you think is 'reasonable.' If people are doing it, it's worth talking about. You don't see anyone else here saying 'it is totally unreasonable to spend $12 on an oil filter, so we shouldn't even be talking about it.'

bluedevils · March 2003

I won't disagree that synthetic is cheaper per mile than conventional in many cases. The opposite can also be true, however.

What I wanted to mention, though, is why do most folks' (including me) cost comparisons typically NOT include the cost of oil analysis in the synthetic side of the equation? Sure, you might be able to stop doing the analysis once a comfort level is established, but many analysis proponents seem to have analysis done at every change interval.

abc246 · March 2003

I bet even with all those test I would not know if it was oil related with a lifter problem. The oil looks fine when I drained it. I dont plan on getting the lifter fixed; the engine is perfectly quite after start up and can run to the red line with no noise at all day long. What I think has happened is a small piece of dirt or sand is caught in the lifter. I cant help but to think if I changed the oil sooner this may not have happened, but there are many posts of Blazers with this type of noise so it maybe a design problem. The factory recommends 7.5 k intervals with regular oil and I am not far from that at 9k.

bigorange30 · March 2003

abc246: 7.5k changes? Are you a salesman or do you otherwise travel mostly all highway miles? It seems that anything else would constitute severe driving as defined by most manuals for a dino oil. Only analysis would tell you for sure. However, since you are using mobil1, you are PROBABLY ok at 9k. There are people that have problems even with mobil1 at 5k as was noted on one of these boards before.

bluedevils #2171: The mobil1 filter does cost more but I believe it is better. Others have verified that it is. The only real question is whether or not the increased performance is worth the increased cost. Until I get evidence that another filter is as good, I am betting my filter money on the mobil1. The fact that a 3k interval change for mobil1 oil has been proven many times to be unnecessary and that's why its not worth considering. There is no such data for the filter.

ruking1 · March 2003

#2172

I think there are at least 4 options:

1 If what is good for the goose (synthetic) is good for the gander (conventional) . So why don't conventional oil users do oil analysis!!?? Logic would dictate that "IF" I am using the lesser lasting product, I should find out if that "cheaper" (but in reality more expensive) product is really doing its job!! ????

2. If I were an oil company, why would I want you to buy a CHEAPER product, when I can sell you a 42% MORE EXPENSIVE product? AND get you to structurally throw out 33% or more of the products usefull life?

3. Even though most the SL version products are on the market, the oil companies have not aggressively advertised that the conventional SL product version meets the new 4000 mile torture test!? They do say however that it is improved!

to meet the spirit and intent of advertising. In fact, ask almost anyone when you should change your oil and see how many say 3,000 miles. On this FACT alone you CAN (but won't happen) decrease the demand for conventional oil 33.3% !!!???

4. If one wants a cleaner engine and longer wearing parts, why are most people using conventional oil when conventional oil has been shown to have less resistance to sludging and wears parts faster than synthetic oil.

5. Conventional oil truly APPEARS cheaper. As in a prior post, I have show that oil change for oil change, you come up with far less money, 7. dollars for conventional vs 20.35 dollars for synthetic or almost 3x more for synthetic. (2.91 x actually)

6. To my way of thinking, one should be more skeptical of the conventional oil as opposed to the reality that folks are more skeptical of the synthetic oil!

7. I will stay away from the discussion on the psychological, sociological, environmental, national security implications,world wide security, economical, etc. etc. effects and affects of structurally not importing 42% less oil.

We can make a lot of so called "third" world nations into 4th and 5th world nations, by not importing 42% of our oil.

zr2rando · March 2003

This is really a good dialog guys.....
I may start letting my oil changes go to 3.5 or maybe 4k given that oil is better these days
(one of my ChemE texts mentions hydrocracking as common practise for making fuels from heavy base stocks, but doesn't actually say that lube oils were made using it...copyright date was 1977...)

This will really kill those economics numbers huh?
Actually I don't have a problem with the 3k changes...I kindof use it do an overall inspection, every 3k miles I know if any new leaks have started or if anything else is starting to show up, while I'm under the vehicle I check everything I can see...
I would however say that All-Swoon and Jiffy-Tube definitely have a racket going for most folks, but then again,,,,regular maintenance, by definition, is a regular thing,,,better to do it a little more often than required than less often...or worse yet...after the fact.
We gonna have that beer?
Rando

wain · March 2003

what oil change interval is being called for by the vehicles that have the oil computer on them?
MB
BMW etc

ruking1 · March 2003

#2177

2000 MB E320 up to 15k. They us a propriatery 0w-40 synthetic

2000 BMW 330i up to 15k. They also use a propriatery 0w-40 or 0w-50? synthetic.

Since MB and BMW provide the oil during new car warranty they 1. do not run afoul of anti trust laws. 2.can get away with making you use their oil. The hope is after the warranty that you will want to or continue to pay the very high per quart charge, and buy through the OEM logistical chain.

Corvette's up to 15k. They recommend GM4178M spec or in the Queen's English 5w-30 or 10w-30, Mobil One synthetic. Since they require a specification, they do not run afoul of anti trust laws.

fwatson · March 2003

Give me a call when Mobile gives an unconditional lifetime warranty on my engine if I use Mobile 1 oil and filter at 15k intervals and I will switch.

I don't really enjoy changing my oil every 6 month or 3000 miles, but it has kept my last 20 cars going for 100000 or more miles with no engine work due to improper lubrication. At 100000 I have had the things so long, 7 years or more, that I am more than ready to get rid of them anyway. In the case of most of them everything but the engine is worn out by then.

Anyway, if I have to pay an additional $20 or so for an analysis to see if I can save $15 on my next oil change it hardly seems like a bargain.

bigorange30 · March 2003

They do offer a lifetime gaurantee. I have a copy of it.

fwatson · March 2003

I'll check their site to see what it says. But I doubt it is unconditional. Is one condition that you have analysis done on the oil?

If so I have a hard time seeing any savings over using GTX and ST filters as I have been.

bigorange30 · March 2003

It makes no condition of oil analysis. The gaurantee I have seen is on the oil. I have not seen a gaurantee on the filter.

ruking1 · March 2003

My take on oil analysis is pretty much the same as yours, your conclusions however, to use one or the other is mutually exclusive, mine, I accept both. The money spent, 20 bucks for an oil analysis, will buy you 2.87 conventional oil changes or lubrication for 8571 miles or lubrication for almost 15,000 miles or .9367 synthetic oil change or lubrication for 14,051 miles. I would do oil analysis if I had any doubt whatsoever and that is for both synthetic AND conventional. I would use the 20 bucks for the oil analysis and get the materials for the next 15,000 miles! Or if I hear you correctly, for you, the next 8571 miles.

Oil Filters, whose is best, and Why?

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