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Subaru Forester vs Toyota RAV4

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Comments

  • chrisl22chrisl22 Member Posts: 24
    I'm going to buy one of the three above cars. My situation is that I drive around town, but also every week I make a 2 hour drive (each way) to my cabin in the mountains, which ends with a 2 mile drive up a good, but steep dirt road that can get pretty mucky and slippery in the winter. I also drive dirt roads quite a bit on backpacking. What I'm looking for is a comfortable car on the highway, but also one that is the most secure on slippery dirt roads. Currently I have a 94 Landcruiser (which I don't want to drive so much alone) and my wife has a 2002 Rav4. The former is a beast off road, of course, but the Rav is much less secure, of course.

    Someone here said that Subaru's AWD is much better than the 2006 Rav's 4WD "on demand." Is that true? Also, does the 2006 Rav still brake as 2 WD? Also, generally I'd like to get a manual (I've got some plantar fasciatis problems with my right foot), but a friend that has a Forrester says the one thing he doesn't like is the the "low" drive still isn't low enough for going downhill without having to brake alot. So should I just get a manual, or is there a preferable manual model that is best on downhill?

    I've test drived all three. I like the suspension of the Outback best of all for ease of highway ride, but I like the size of the Forrester.

    Also, the sound system's important to me. Is the Forrester's good enough? Is the upgraded 6 speaker Forrester system significantly better? Or if I get a Forrester, should I just get an outside system put in?

    Finally, new or late model used, if it's a Subaru? On one hand, that regular dirt road drive will knock the car around immediately, which inclines me to a late model used Forrester or Outback. But someone told me that if you get a 2003 or newer used Subaru, you might as well get a new one since you won't be saving enough money to make it worth it.

    I'd appreciate any recommendations on any of the above questions. Thanks.
  • chrisl22chrisl22 Member Posts: 24
    When will the '07 arrive?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I do think the full-time system on the Forester is better, this was one thing Toyota sort of cost cut, my guess is to be able to squeeze the best possible EPA mileage numbers.

    If you want a stick shift, Subaru is it, as Toyota dropped this choice completely for the RAV4. Bummer, too.

    Manual is definitely best for ultimate control of what gear you're in. You can descend long hills in 3rd/4th and keep speeds down, and engine braking is also applied to both axles (AWD is truly full-time this way).

    does the 2006 Rav still brake as 2 WD?

    Yes, it will behave like a FWD vehicle when you use engine braking, i.e. the front wheels do all the stopping.

    Outback has a long wheelbase so it is a more comfy highway car than the Forester, but the Forester is IMO better in the city, more nimble and easier to manuever. We own both a 98 Forester and an 02 Legacy and I prefer the Forester.

    Sound? I would go aftermarket. It's double-DIN sized so you can find a lot of stuff to fit. There are even in-dash NAV options for around $1600 (search Crutchfield.com).

    Depreciation is low for these, so yeah, I'd buy new, you might as well.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Probably late April or early May. I'm not predicting prices will go any lower, but I doubt they'll go up.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    About the limitations of a torque-on-demand system like the RAV4's:

    http://www.drive.com.au/editorial/article.aspx?id=11038&vf=1

    -juice
  • kc456kc456 Member Posts: 12
    This article is not exactly representative of day-to-day use by RAV owners. RAV is not meant for off-road use.

    For the poster who needs to drive up the dirt road twice a month, I’d definitely go with Subaru, especially given the rebate on Forrester X (through end of March).
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    I'll second nearly everything juice said:

    You might as well buy new. My wife and I bought our '04 Outback at the end of the model year, as the '05s were coming out. We expected to purchase a used '03, but got such a good deal it was only a few hundred dollars more to go new. When you consider you get the full warranty and more time before you have to spend on major maintenance, it was a no-brainer for us.

    If you do decide to go used, go '05 with an Outback, not older. The Outback took a big leap forward in quality and driving dynamics that year. Much more taut and refined.

    We prefer the Outback because the ride's a little better, rear seat's more accommodating, cargo capacity's a little greater overall, and it feels more sophisticated than Forester, to our tastes. It does great on gravel, potholed Forest Service roads and tackles whatever we've asked it to. If you're backpacking with friends, Outback may be better. We recently took a 3-day winter trip with our 2-year-old and two friends. It was a little tight with all of us and our gear, but we made it without entirely blocking rear visibility. :)

    We certainly like Forester, too, though - we've turned four friends into Forester owners over the last few years, and all of them new to Subaru. Forester is less expensive, probably a little quicker because of its lower weight, and a little more nimble. Looks more SUV-ish, has a taller cargo area. If you're backpacking alone or with one other person, Forester would have ample room. I don't think the Forester could've handled everything we took on our winter trip without a cargo carrier.

    Both are extremely safe and reliable, so you're getting the best whichever you select. Just gotta choose the one that fits your life. :) Have fun!
  • thecatthecat Member Posts: 535
    Juice,

    I think this article spoke more about a problem w/ the 4cyl in extreme heat then it did the 4wd system. Whatever the problem was it was not repeatable. ???

    Did I miss something.

    BTW it's nice and warm here in Ft. Lauderdale. :) Hope it warms up at home by the time I get back.

    - hutch
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They made it sound like the traction control was limiting forward momentum (not engine power), so it was a combination of power and traction. That's a situation where a little slip might actually have helped it climb the grade.

    Having said that, we never did get our Foresters out on that farm off roading session we wanted to do, so it'll probably never matter. :shades:

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    BTW, aren't you a little old for Spring Break? :P

    -juice
  • rnw96rnw96 Member Posts: 2
    Thanks for sharing your experience with the Toyota & Subaru dealers in the NYC area. I've had similar experiences with Toyota dealers.

    The past two weekends, I've visited dealers for the Toyota Rav4, Honda CR-V, and Subaru Forester.

    Originally I had my heart & mind set on the Rav4 Sport with the V6 engine. The problem: the Toyota dealers I've visited have made the buying process so difficult, it gets my blood boiling.

    First, I had a very similar experience as you at *****Westchester Toyota --- avoid them like the plague!*****. Walked in and nobody greeted me. Finally chased down a salesperson and asked him if I can see the Rav4. He said they were sold out, but I could look at two sold vehicles that were in the back. With no directions, my wife, father, and I wandered around and found "the back" on our own. Not much to see with the doors locked, so we come back inside. My salesperson (does he qualify for that title at this stage?) is speaking with someone so I ask an unoccupied salesperson next to him, when they expect the Rav4s back in stock. He refused to answer my question and said I have to talk to the salesperson assigned to me.

    So I wait for my "salesperson" to finish his conversation with someone else. Answer: in about a week. I have to ask if he can notify me when they come in stock. I suggest perhaps taking my name and number. He acknowledges this is a swell idea and proceeds to take them down. I then ask him his name. Again, he follows my lead on this innovative suggestion.

    Needless to say, I haven't heard back from him yet and it's been a week. Believe me, I'm not sitting by the phone.

    The next three Toyota dealers I visited weren't much better. The next one was in the heart of the Bronx and was rundown. They didn't have any Rav V6s, but at least the salesperson was courteous and thought on her own to ask for my name & number. Again, no call back occurred, but at least she went through the motions.

    Next came a Toyota dealership in Bergen County, NJ. Much bigger, nicer, and more professional outfit, but the short story is that even though they had the car on the lot, they wouldn't let me test drive it. I had to make an appointment for next week.

    Finally I went to a Toyota dealer in Queens today. You would have thought that someone was filming a parody of the car dealer experience. The salespeople certainly dressed and acted the part. Sloppy, rude, and pushy. They let me test drive the Rav4, but only on local streets and for less than 10 minutes. Then they spent 25 minutes trying to convince me to place an order today, even though I told them from the outset that I wasn't there to buy that day, but would buy within a couple of weeks. Plus, I wasn't prepared to order a vehicle that could take 6 weeks for delivery without exploring my other options. And I certainly wasn't going to buy after a 7 minute test drive. When I mentioned that I was looking at the Forester too, the salesperson said "What?! Are you 80 years old?" (I'm 31 by the way).

    By comparison, the Honda dealer I visited in Paramus, NJ was completely professional and courteous. The test drive experience was very pleasant and the salesperson did a great job of answering my questions afterwards, without pressure. I would strongly consider buying from her if it wasn't for the fact that the CR-V drove just like the rumors suggest (tin can on wheels). I had read those posts about the strange cup holder/tray and shifter being "deal breakers" and thought the people were crazy. Now, I guess I have to consider myself crazy right along with them.

    At the Forester dealership in Queens, NY, again, the experience was completely courteous. I asked for a test drive and immediately the salesperson brought a car around. We took it for a spin and he encouraged me to take it on the highway. Again, a really nice guy. And since I was really impressed with the feel of the car, he has a chance of getting my experience.

    After evaluating the Rav4 and Forester point-by-point, the pluses and minuses pretty much balance out for me. I know the Rav4s are the hotter, sexier commodity, but I wish Toyota would reserve the attitude for their cars, not their salespeople. They've successfully driven me to an imminent Subaru purchase.

    -W
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Van Bortel is a no-haggle Subaru dealer in NY. See what their price is like and ask your dealer to beat that price. It makes the negotiation process simpler.

    Good luck, and keep us posted?

    -juice
  • smittynycsmittynyc Member Posts: 289
    rnw96,

    I hope you can make things work with the Queens dealer. If not, you may want to check out Smith-Cairns in Yonkers or Milea in the Bronx (East Tremont). I bought from Milea and got a very competitive price and enjoyed the experience overall (although I didn't have a trade-in to contend with).

    The problem with Milea is their service department. I can't begin to describe how chaotic and unpleasant it is. I had such a terrible time with my initial oil change that I now go to Town Motors in Englewood (which is phenomenal).

    Good luck with everything.
  • chrisl22chrisl22 Member Posts: 24
    I really appreciate the help several of you have given me re. my question of Forester, Outback, or Rav4, given the two mile dirt road I negotiate each week. And that I should probably buy new.

    If I decide on an Outback, which engine should I get? I'm conscious (environmentally) about mileage, but the 2.5 Outback seems to have significantly less zip than a 2.5 Forester. I'm disinclined towards turbos because of mileage (although I'm sure they're great engines). My cousin has a turbo Forester and loves it. Is a 3.0 the way I should go if I get an Outback? I just don't want to be struggling at all going up any hills...

    And by the way, I had the same problems trying to look at Ravs in San Jose, California. Twice they've driven me all the way around their lots looking for a 4WD Rav for me to test-drive -- and never found one.

    Thanks in advance.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Forester is up to 173hp with the base engine, while the Outback now makes 175hp, though the latter is heavier. Both are perfectly adequate, but the lighter Forester does feel zippier to me.

    -juice
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    Outback 3.0R has some nice features over the 2.5i, including what I think is a better transmission - the automatic 5spd SportShift. Other benefits include: upgraded VTD all wheel drive system, tire pressure monitoring sytem, 6disc CD changer, dual zone front climate control, body colored mirrors with turn signals, and rear seat armrest. The downside... it's about $2700 more and gets 19/26 MPG rather than 22/28 (which isn't really a big decrease considering it's 75 more horsepower).

    So if you go with Outback, do you want more goodies and more HP but lower MPG & a higher price, or higher MPG and lower price but less goodies and less horsepower? Personally, I think the 2.5i engine has more than adequate, but not spirited, power. I don't think you'll be struggling up any hills with it. I know the 3.0 has a reputation for smooth, refined power delivery. Drive 'em both & see what you think.

    You can compare details of the different Outback models here:
    http://www.cars101.com/subaru/outback/outback2006.html#overview
    And Forester here:
    http://www.cars101.com/subaru/forester/forester2006.html
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The 2.5i Limited has a lot of the equipment from the 3.0R model, but I think the 3.0R is a better value because prices get a bit too close.

    Having said that, the real bargain is the 2.5i SE, you get a lot for next to nothing, and the rebate is bigger to make the difference even greater.

    -juice
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    Yup, good point. SE's definitely the most-bang-for-the-buck choice, as far as feature content goes.
  • chrisl22chrisl22 Member Posts: 24
    The SE and 3.0R both sound good. I'll definitely test-drive them both. One thing about the SE is that it only comes in automatic, and since my 2 mile dirt road is steep in places, I'm wondering if a manual might be better for control of downhill speed (rather than having to brake too much)?

    How is the 3.0R's 5 speed automatic for downhill slowing?

    I have a neighbor who loves his Forester (he drives even further along the dirt road). He says that the one thing he regrets is not having a manual, since the low on his Forester still requires more downhill braking then he'd like.

    You guys are such great help. I haven't ruled out a Forester either, but the Outback's comfort and suspension are enticing me.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, you have SportShift, so you can put the automatic in a specific gear and do the same thing.

    -juice
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    Don't know if this simplifies or complicates things, but if you do want manual trans, that rules out the 3.0 models as well - they all come with automatic. On Outback, manual is available only on the base 2.5i or the turbo models.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They do have manual shift controls on the auto, though.

    -juice
  • chrisl22chrisl22 Member Posts: 24
    I drove the 3.0R (only had the LL Bean model on the lot, but same engine) and the 2.5i limited last night. The dealer I went to kept insisting there's not an SE and there was no mention of it in their Outback brochure. The 3.0R was remarkably smooth and solid. I liked it alot, but for me the 2.5i is probably perfectly fine and most likely the way I'll go. What probably tips the balance for me is that 91 octane is recommended for the 3.0 and 87 for 2.5. The salesman said you can probably get away with lower octane in the 3.0. It will only lower performance. But I'm not so convinced. So I'm thinking that between the mpg difference and high octane required, the cost of gas for the 3.0 becomes more significant.
  • chrisl22chrisl22 Member Posts: 24
    I forgot. Yes, it appears to me that the sport speedshift, even the 4-speed in the 2.5 outback, will do the trick for me in terms of controlling speed downhill on my dirt road.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Cool, sounds like you've pretty much decided, then. Let us know when you pull the trigger.

    -juice
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    There's no mention of the SE in their brochure because it was a model added in November - halfway through the 2006 model production year. I can't find mention of it on subaru.com or on many dealer sites, but have the dealer look up the model code "6DC", which is the SE's unique code.
    It seems there are not too many of them out there. A quick internet search for Outback 6DC found some in Houston at this link to Gillman Subaru in Houston. There are at least three more on this dealer's website.

    Not sure where you're located, but the SE is also listed on the website for New York's Van Bortel Subaru (#1 volume dealer in US) http://www.buildyourownsubaru.com/BuildYourCar.asp
  • chrisl22chrisl22 Member Posts: 24
    I'm in the San Jose area. I emailed for prices, and one local dealer emailed back a $22,500 price (+ fees) for a 2006 2.5i limited. I'll wait to hear from others, but I'm thinking that sounds quite good -- and probably wouldn't get lower in 1-3 months when the 2007's come out? Am I also right that there's no major upgrades coming with the 2007's and that there's no really good reason either to wait for them, or for lower prices on the 2006?
  • chrisl22chrisl22 Member Posts: 24
    I just noticed that some outbacks have an "ultra-low" emission package, which is desirable to me for environmental reasons. However, does anyone know if there's any power or performance deficit with this package??

    My $22,500 price from a dealer turns out to be a mistake. He gave a base model price. The other prices I'm hearing are mid $25 K.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I believe the PZEV models give up 3hp, at least that was the case for MY2005. You probably will not even notice.

    -juice
  • lmn908lmn908 Member Posts: 34
    There is an SE package for the 2.5i Legacy that includes a power drivers seat and sunroof for $500 - almost all seem to come with this package. The SE package for the Outback includes the automatic climate control, CD changer, and Navigation system, and lists for $1500 - a good value if you are interested in the NAV system, considering that NAV is usually about a $2K option by itself. The Outback SE only comes in 2 colors - Seacrest Green and Diamond gray.
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    '07 Outback models will see XM radio offered, and an aux. input for iPods/other MP3 players. I suspect there will also be a memory setting on the power driver's seat, since that upgrade has been confirmed for the '07 B9 Tribeca.

    Not sure if it's still accurate, but back in June, a FHI exec said Legacy (and therefore presumably Outback) would receive a "freshening" in 2007. Don't know if he means 2007 model year, or calendar year, and don't know if he's referring specifically to the Japanese market, which usually gets this kind of thing first. See below. Incidentally, Subaru of America later denied that the minivan mentioned in the story would be sold in the US.

    YUZO YAMAGUCHI | Automotive News
    Posted Date: 6/21/05
    TOKYO -- Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. may build a Subaru minivan for sale in global markets, including the United States.
    The seven-seat minivan would offer Subaru features: all-wheel drive and a boxer engine, says Ikuo Mori, chief general manager of Fuji Heavy's overseas sales and marketing division. Fuji owns Subaru.
    "Given our company size, we need to make it a global car," Mori says. He declines to say when the minivan might be ready for the United States.
    Subaru sells four cars in the United States: the Baja, Forester, Impreza and Legacy, and one light truck: the B9 Tribeca.
    In Japan, the minivan would be a replacement for the Subaru Traviq, a rebadged Opel Zafira that General Motors assembled in Thailand. GM stopped building the minivan for Subaru in December, about three years after Fuji Heavy sold it in Japan.
    Last year, Traviq sales here plunged 36.1 percent from a year earlier to 1,847. Fuji Heavy said sales were poor because the minivan lacked Subaru specialties, all-wheel drive and a boxer engine.
    Meanwhile, Mori says the company plans to freshen the Legacy in 2007 and redesign it in 2009. The Legacy is Subaru's best seller in the United States. "


    As far as pricing goes, I don't think it'll go significantly lower on the '06s. The current $2000 rebate is pretty good, and inventory will only drop since the factory has stopped taking orders for '06 models.

    fitzmall.com is a great way to find a target price to use as leverage when you're negotiating. They've got automatic Outback Limiteds starting from about $24,500. Invoice is $27,227, so they're selling for about $2700 below invoice, with the rebate included. A California-spec vehicle would be a couple hundred more, so I think about $24,700 would be as low as you could go.
    Anything up to $25,400 I'd consider a good deal, and wouldn't bite on anything higher. If you get any options, be sure you get those at invoice, as well.

    I think I've used up more than my two cents' worth of advice here. Hope this gives you some ammunition. Good luck! As juice said, let us know how it all turns out.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The SE packages are a steal, you're almost forced to buy them. Same for the Outback Sport SE.

    -juice
  • muzikgmuzikg Member Posts: 1
    I just recently test drove both the 06 RAV4 and Subaru Forester. I own a Subaru Outback(96) which despite great repair record in Consumer Reports has been a disappointment. Just over 100,000 miles, the thing began leaking oil from about every gasket in the engine. All told, about $1900.00 in gasket replacement work and this week, I was told the rear cam seal needs replacement ($800.00). When I asked the dealer about the problem, they told me "these thing wear out". It looks like Subaru is using the same engine in the Forester and when I went to drive it, I asked about the oil leaks. The sales guy told me that all cars have oil leaks when they get older and Subaru makes a great engine. I have owned lots of cars and driven most well past 100,000 miles and have never seen such gasket failure.

    So I drove the Forester anyway. Nice car. A little more bumpy than the Outback. The Toyota dealer is next door so after driving the Outback, I went across the lot and drove the Rav4. Similar ride, but the RAV is MUCH quieter on the road. It looks like they are about the same size as far as cargo, etc. The RAV is a bit more expensive and no dealer incentives yet. MPG is about the same, but you can get the RAV in a 2WD version and up the mileage by about 3MPG.

    With my worries about the Subaru engine and the road noise, I bought the 2wd RAV. I will have to do another posting in 10 years to see if the Subaru Dealer "all cars leak oil" statement holds up.....
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    It's unfortunate about your engine, but I think you just had the bad luck of the draw. I wouldn't want a 2wd RAV4 due to the amount of snow, but I do think the value equation goes to the Forester and it's a proven vehicle. The turbo version is a blast. But Toyota offers more luxury amenities in the RAV4.

    The Forester overall has one of the best reliability and safety records. And the RAV4 is a Toyota. FWIW.

    Good luck with your new vehicle.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    I will have to do another posting in 10 years ...

    Don't wait THAT long! You'll miss all the fun here. :)

    tidester, host
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    I don't think 10 years is an unreasonably short time for the seals/gaskets to get brittle/worn - it's not the mileage as much as the age. But I'm no mechanic. *shrug* Have you had any other problems with the car? Just replacing all the seals/gaskets once every 10 years seems pretty reliable to me.

    I'm sure the RAV will be an excellent and reliable vehicle for you. Congrats! They feel quite roomy, especially rear legroom. I have friends who were looking at the new RAV, but were turned off by having to pay extra for side airbags, daytime running lights, roof rack, cargo cover, etc.
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    Congrats, and good luck with your new RAV.

    From your EPA mileage talk, it sounds like you got the 2.4 liter engine. That is a strong-pulling 4-cylinder. My gf has it in her '02 Solara, and it is impressive.

    Let us know how you like it.

    -ss4
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Congrats on the RAV4.

    For the 99-02 models Subaru offered a 7/100 warranty on the gaskets if you agreed to let them use a coolant conditioner. After 02 the gaskets have been fine. That's reflected in both Consumer Reports (Engine reliability ratings improve) and from what we've observed here on Edmunds.

    We have 5 Subarus in the family and none have ever had leak issues. Sorry 'bout your luck.

    -juice
  • chrisl22chrisl22 Member Posts: 24
    After I've been really researching (and driving) new Outbacks and Foresters -- and getting good advice here, a friend of mine is now selling a 2001 Forester for his brother in law that seems to be in very good shape with low miles (53000) and has been well serviced. So I'm thinking of maybe buying this now instead of a new car, for two main reasons: for one thing, what I'd *really* want is a hybrid Subaru, and I'm thinking that this used Forester might nicely tide me over until 2009 or so when Subaru might do something really new. My second reason for maybe buying this 2001 Forester is that since I negotiate a two-mile dirt road every week that is in bad condition sometimes during the winter I wasn't relishing banging/dirtying up a brand new car so quickly.

    So now I have this question: was the 2001 Forester a good vintage? This car's more or less dropped right in front of me in good condition with these low miles. Of course, the price compared to new is very desirable. My friend was asking $12,500 for it, but I could probably get it for something less than that. What do you think?
  • leo2633leo2633 Member Posts: 589
    I have a 2001 Forester S with the 5 speed manual transmission. They had some clutch problems that Subaru fixed under warranty, as well as a leaking headgasket. I also had one bad rear wheel bearing. These were somewhat common problems with the 2001, as well as a few other years. I also had to replace a coil pack and catalytic converter. With all that, you'd think I'd hate my car, but I really do love it. I currently have 133,000 miles on mine. I'd probably replace it with another 5 speed Forester if I were buying a new car tomorrow, but I anticipate having this car for several more years, and into the 200K mile range.

    Hope this helps.

    Len
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not bad, but I'd recommend 2003 or later. They wheel bearings got a new design and have been more robust. In 2002 the gasket material was revised and those have also been better.

    Your 2001 would be covered under the 8/100 gasket warranty as long as it has the coolant conditioner (which is free at the dealer), so that's OK.

    So the only trouble spot would be the wheel bearings.

    -juice
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Sheesh! You guys make the 2001s sound like real lemons. Yes SOME 2001 Foresters had wheel bearing, clutch or head gasket issues but by no means did they all have problems. In fact, I'm pretty sure that CR lists the 2001s as a good used car buy.

    -Frank

    P.S. That price seems a little high
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good point, Frank, we just wanted to be thorough.

    Actually CR lists the Forester as a used car Best Bet, meaning any model from any year is recommended by them.

    Same for the RAV4.

    -juice
  • pretzelbpretzelb Member Posts: 64
    I'm shocked you found the road noise higher with the RAV4 over the Forester. I found the Forester to be very quiet when compared to the RAV4. I will concede that maybe road noise is better but to be honest the 4c engine on the RAV4 was so loud I couldn't tell anything about the road noise. I punched both on the highway to test what it would be like to try and pass someone and the RAV4 just appeared to scream at me.

    I'm still on the fence as to which to get but I thought the noise was less of an issue with the Forester.
  • pretzelbpretzelb Member Posts: 64
    After lurking for a while someone pointed tme to this thread (wish I had seen it early). Since I need some therapy right now I thought I'd post some ramblings.

    After reviewing a few SUVs to replace my 96 2d Explorer, I narrowed it down to the RAV4 and Forester. Right now I think I'm going to go with the Forester.

    It's a very hard decision though because I think the "smarter" choice is the RAV4. Here in Texas, Subaru isn't that popular. In fact, it's hard to spot any on the road. From what I read the Subaru line is good quality but they just don't sell well here. Toyota on the other hand, well it's just about as universal as Honda. So from a stand point of going with the car that has more support (dealerships and repairs and familiarity) and popularity any Toyota will beat a Subaru.

    But my driving experience, while good for both, was just too much fun with the Forester. Everytime I drove it I laughed at how fast it accelerated and how well it cornered. And this is with the non-turbo mind you. The 4c RAV4 was plenty fast too, and it handled very well, but it was more truck like and the Forester was more car like, which is kind of to be expected.

    Price isn't so much an issue for me since I can get both for a fixed amount over invoice from the fleet department's arrangement with my credit union. I much prefer the interior of the RAV4 (the stereo on the base RAV4 was amazing) but it's hard to get past that experience of laughing with the Forester. Plus I tell myself that I can buy an aftermarket stereo and get the windows tinted and be just fine. I do worry that I won't have the space I'm used to and from now on I will have to think before I buy something to make sure it does fit in my car.

    I will probably change my mind again but I really need to make a decision this month since both my registration and inspection are due. No real point to this post, just wanted to see what came out when I started to write my thoughts and see how they looked. ;)
  • kumarikumari Member Posts: 72
    I was in EXACTLY the same boat as you a few months ago. Drove a truck-based SUV for 11 years (Mazda Navaho - same car as the Explorer Sport). My former cars had all been sports cars, so I was ready to get rid of the truck that I hated from the day I bought it! (Got it for the doggies - car-based SUV's weren't available when I bought my truck.)

    Test drove the RAV-4 (4 cyl only - the 6 wasn't out yet), Honda CRV, Mitsubishi small SUV (forgot what it's called) and the BMW X3. Like the RAV-4 and Forester the best ---- THEN drove the Forester XT and it completely blew me away! The RAV is a very nice car, but it didn't corner as well as the Forester (lower center of gravity) and I personally hated the busy double-decker dashboard. The RAV only came with a standard sunroof and the Forester's sunroof is GIGANTIC - like driving a convertible. The Forester also has a rear hatch that opens "UP", not sideways, like a door. This came in mighty handy when I was unloading heavy cases of water curbside for my mother. If I had bought the RAV, I would have had to close the door each time, or walk completely around the car several times to unload. I can't imagine trying to get in the rear of the RAV if someone parks on top of you at the rear!! I also test-drove the 4 and 6 cylinder Toyota Highlanders and thought the 6 cylinder was a VERY nice ride (and had a hatch which opens upward). They had several that were available as "certified" used cars with full warranties - very clean and nice - perhaps another option for you if you need the cargo space and want to continue to ride high, like in the Explorer.

    I LOVE my Forester turbo! Plus, Subaru appears to be more negotiable than Toyota on their prices (got mine for more than $2000 under invoice), but you must consider the proximity of the dealership to your home. In my neck of the woods, Subaru and Toyota are located within a few blocks of each other. I would have also checked out KIA, Hyundai and Saturn, but the dealerships were far away from my home. Also, by the time you add on all the goodies to Toyota that Subaru includes in their Premium package or XT turbo model, the Toyota costs a lot more than you would think. Get all the brochures and go over them at home, marking the things you like/need. It made my choice much easier. The web-based programs on the car sites are not really accurate at this, so I had to do it the old-fashioned way.

    Hope this helps!

    Samantha
  • pretzelbpretzelb Member Posts: 64
    I am probably the only Subaru shopper who has not driven a turbo. Part of me is afraid I'll like it too much but since I find the base engine fast I'm not sure I even need it. It actually works in my favor since I know I'd be happy with either the base Forester or the base 4c RAV4 and I can avoid a lot of features and price creep with adding things here and there. After this is all over I may try to test drive a turbo just to see what the fuss is about.

    I have at least committed to the best apples to apples I can with these two and limited myself to the base Forester and a base 4c 4wd RAV4. Pricing comes out close with my credit union deal (though I begin to wonder if I could beat that with some haggling at Subaru) but the RAV4 seems a bit ahead on base looks and features.

    Thinking about during a morning jog I keep coming back to this being an unfair comparison. It's almost like trying to compare a pickup to a 4d sedan - they are almost totally different vehicles. Both are great but the main difference is all size related. The RAV4 has more passenger and cargo room and a better view of the road. The Forester handles better mostly because of what it gives up in inside room and elevation.

    In the end the thought that the Subaru dealers are not close by (yet - one might be coming near me) almost tips the scales. This is about as silly as letting the stereo tip the scales since you really shouldn't expect either car to require a lot of time in the shop. This is how I drive myself crazy and why I only buy cars every 10 years!! :D
  • kumarikumari Member Posts: 72
    I have no doubt you'll get a better price on a base Forester than on the RAV-4, but only if you deal quickly. Subaru is giving promo prices on the Forester all over the country. You may even be able to get one for under $19,000. Check out Fitzmall.com and then use those prices to negotiate a price in your area. I find that I'm not really missing the extra large cargo space of the Explorer and I love having a great-handling car. I guess it depends how often you really need to schlep that much stuff around! Also, since you're used to a top opening rear door, I don't think you're gonna like the RAV-4's side opening rear door.

    I know what you're going through and commiserate - I, too, only get cars every 10-15 years or so! I love my Subaru, but I'm sure the Toyota is a great car as well - especially if you need more cargo space. Don't rule out the Highlander - it has a rear door which opens up and is more like what you are used to AND has more cargo room than the RAV.

    Good luck!

    Samantha

    P.S. probably not a good idea for you to drive the Turbo - I got hooked!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I like the idea of no-haggle prices.

    You might also find some dealers that offer that, for instance in MD I use fitzmall.com, and they have both Subaru and Toyota franchises.

    Funny thing is, they have a location in Gaithersburg where they are back to back! Drive both and decide right there, on the spot, with prices known up front.

    Good luck choosing, either way.

    -juice
  • monobomonobo Member Posts: 10
    I was split between the RAV4 and the Forester. I looked at Hondas, Mitsubishi, Hyundai, Toyota and Pontiac. I narrowed it down to the two above. I was leaning towards the Forester until my neighbor told me it was synonymous with being Gay. I goggled it and found lots of articles that said the same thing. I just put a deposit on a RAV4. Look into this if it matters to you. If it does not be comfortable with guys flirting with you.
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