SUV vs Minivans

ctsang · December 2005

That's true only for domestic minivans.

fungarooooooo · January 2006

After living overseas for several years, I returned to San Francisco in 1999 with a British wife in tow. She didn't want a 2nd generation Odyssey back then, even though it generated rave reviews and had a several month waiting list. She wasn't used to driving on American roads, let alone in large vehicles unlike tiny vehicles that most folks drive back in Europe. Hence we settled for a 1999 Accord.

I chose the Accord because of prior firsthand experience with an older model, excellent reviews, and Honda's impressive reliability statistics. However, for the next several years, she whined about how she'd have liked to get an Audi or BMW instead, etc. I guess it was because, like many Europeans, she had not yet become familiar with the Japanese car makers' rapidly improving stature in the market during the 80's and 90's.

Seven years later, she acknowledges that the Accord's reliability has been nothing but impressive -- not one single mechanical/electrical flaw, minor or major, except for malfunctioning power door locks (which failed just a few months ago). (In contrast, we had a SAAB 9000 overseas which gave us nothing but major transmission and air conditioning problems within the span of two years.)

Over the years, her parents visited frequently from England, around four times a year, generally 10-18 days each time; they "stopover" here on the way to their winter getaway in New Zealand and often do work projects nearby in Canada. The Accord has been too small to accommodate our family of four (i.e., two kids, ages 7 and 9) and the grandparents.

Hence we are now looking for a new vehicle with people-moving capacity. We've pretty much narrowed down our search to 2006 versions of the Odyssey and Pilot and intend to buy as soon as we can decide, perhaps in a couple of days or within a week. I like what I see in the vehicle's reviews (in Edmunds.com, etc.) and safety ratings. (She can't be bothered to read them or do more extensive due diligence other than test driving.)

We live in a condominium with underground parking, right in downtown San Francisco. However, we like to go bike riding in nearby Marin County and would like to start hitting the ski slopes (maybe 1-3 times a year), visit places like Yosemite (with snow) in the winter.

She has become used to American roads and feels she's ready to handle a mid-size SUV like the Pilot. However, she feels that the Odyssey is way too big. She has always had a certain "anti-minivan" mindset. I am not sure I understand why, as soccer moms actually drive both minivans and SUVs. In fact, SUVs have, at least in San Francisco, become the vehicle of choice for soccer moms.

We test drove both vehicles. She drove the Odyssey so tentatively/slowly that the "Eco" (three-cylinder shutdown) mode light came on even on the slow winding roads. When she got into the Pilot, she drove much more aggressively/normally. I think that the Odyssey's extra one foot length had a tremendous psychological effect on her (or she just wanted to demonstrate that the Odyssey wasn't suitable for her).

The fact that she fell in love with the Pilot is rather ironic as she used to criticize SUV drivers for their global warming, gas guzzling consumption. Yes, the Pilot may be fuel efficient for a SUV but its fuel economy still pales terribly in comparison to the likes of the Corolla, the latest seven seater RAV-4 with 3.5L engine, and even the latest Odyssey (28 MPG on highway, if you want to put your faith in EPA numbers).

I found it just as easy to drive both vehicles. As a passenger, I much preferred the Odyssey's longer leg room and non-SUV, luxury car ride. I also appreciated the Odyssey's more luxurious setting (e.g., different climate control zones for driver, front, and rear passenger), etc. I liked the fact that the Odyssey directed air conditioned air directly to the third row seats, which the Pilot doesn't do.

I'm not 100% biased in favor of the Odyssey. When she leans towards the Pilot, I sometimes feel that I have to play the role of the devil's advocate.

I do feel that the Odyssey may have some disadvantages though not many. First, the Odyssey may be harder to park because of its length. If so, it might be a challenge for my wife. Second, the Odyssey has less ground clearance and doesn't have 4WD capability. However, I'm not too concerned, as we haven't yet found the need to go "off-road" nor have we become a full-fledged skiing family yet. Furthermore, I hear that the Odyssey is quite a competent vehicle in the snow.

I think the grandparents would prefer the Odyssey for its seating comfort, especially with the legroom. The Odyssey's power doors are an useful feature that my wife doesn't seem to acknowledge. I guess she wants to be bothered with the need to open the Pilot's doors carefully for the kids (without denting the adjacent vehicle), moving the second row seats to let them into the third row, and climbing in to help them if needed, etc. She doesn't seem to mind that our 9 year old daughter will soon outgrow the third row seat (i.e., find it uncomfortable for long journeys).

She argues that the Pilot is a lot of fun to drive (compared to our Accord and to the Odyssey). I agree. However, it isn't as comfortable for passengers and the "driver's fun" might dissipate if she were to drive for extended periods or frequent intra-day trips.

I can imagine the extended family (with grandparents) packing into the Odyssey with cargo for a road trip holiday to Southern California (e.g., Disneyland, Legoland). I can't imagine six people in the Pilot with several days's worth of luggage including active gear like tennis rackets, ball hopper, snorkeling gear, ice cooler, beach chairs, camping equipment, etc.

If we get the Odyssey, we can put two adult sized bikes on the roof and the kid's bikes in the deep well behind the third row seats. If we got the Pilot, we'd get a hitch installed along with a hitch-mounted four-bike rack.

A problem is that the dealer charges $800 for the hitch installation alone, as they require that additional cooling capacity be installed for the transmission and power steering (on the assumption that the hitch is used for towing up to 3,500 lbs, etc.). One can get a hitch installed for less than $250 elsewhere. However, I am concerned that this may void the Honda transmission and power steering warranty unless the additional cooling capacity is added as well.

I also think that the Odyssey EX with leather is a much better bargain than the Pilot EX 4WD with leather (around $2k less). In essence, the Pilot comes with a 4WD pricing premium over the Odyssey. That's a bit stretching our budget more than I'd like.

She also feels that the Odyssey's full body-colored bumper is a liability; as the Odyssey's longer and perhaps more difficult to park, she thinks the bumper is likely to get several scrapes. (The Pilot's body-colored bumper comes with what seems to be black protective trim

fungarooooooo · January 2006

Oooops...the website wouldn't let me post the entire message so I'll try to continue it from what I can remember.

...along the most frequently touched parts of the bumper.)

I hope to hear from you folks as to:

(1) How I might be able to soften my wife's extremist, anti-minivan attitude?

(2) How difficult it is to parallel park the Odyssey in the city (in absolute terms and relative to the Pilot).... (She's not a confident parallel parker but I think she can get the hang of it after a while or with the help of a professional instructor.)

(3) Whether there's a cheaper hitch solution that won't necessitate a $800 payment to the dealer or result in the nullification of the Honda warranty on the transmission, etc....

(4) Whether there are other tid-bids I should consider in this seemingly endless debate?

Thank you very much.

Cheers,

Stephen

stever · January 2006

How I might be able to soften my wife's extremist, anti-minivan attitude?

Is she a Man U or Arsenal fan? Real footballers drive minivans, lol.

The Odyssey is big; you could also look at a MPV or Mazda5 or one of the SUV crossovers that are built on car underpinnings, like the Ford Freestyle.

Steve, Host

love2driveinct · January 2006

I can understand your dilemma. I think I may be in a good position to reply to you because at this moment, we have two vehicles, a 2004 Odyssey and a 2005 Pilot.

To be honest, we love both of them. We replaced our 98 Chrysler T&C minivan with the 04 Ody (new) and have loved it for all of its wonderful features. Of course, the 05 and 06 brought even more features, so they are even better.

First of all, before I address some of your points, I have to tell you that we are in our own dilemma at the moment -- whether to replace the 04 Ody with an 06 Ody when the lease is up in April, or to get an 06 Acura MDX (or possibly Volvo XC90). I have been doing the "minivan thing" for five years now and I am just plain tired of it. I cannot deny its utility, it is wonderful. And it truly makes just as many trips to Home Depot as to the soccer field, there is nothing like it in the world. But, alas, I'm bored!

So now on to your questions...

As far as the ride goes, and I have spent a lot of time riding in both vehicles, I actually find the Pilot just as comfortable, if not more comfortable. I think that is because the Pilot has more of a car-like "cradling" interior, whereas the Ody has the van-like "open" interior. Yes, there is more room, but you don't feel "cozy", lol. The same is true for driving, obviously, and that is one reason I am considering switching. All in all, not a big deal, though.

As far as the power doors go, there is one small thing that the Pilot has over the Ody (and correct me if I'm wrong here, since my model years are different) -- on the Pilot, you can put the child safety locks on the doors so that only YOU can open the doors from the outside, effectively deciding WHEN children can safely exit the vehicle. The only way to do that with the Ody is turn off the power doors entirely, pretty much defeating the purpose of having them. My children are younger than yours, though, so it may not be as much of an issue for you.

The Ody handles quite well in the snow, due to its weight and FWD, but it is not an AWD SUV. There is no comparison. Yes, take the van in the snow versus the Accord. But the Pilot will take you all the way to your destination, snow and all.

The Ody is definitely easier for older passengers than the Pilot, so the grandparents would be pretty comfy in those second row seats. But keep in mind that the kids still need to get in first (to get to the third row), or they'll be trying to get by the g'parents' legs as they go by. Maybe not something that would happen so frequently as to make a big difference, though.

Parallel parking? Well, my husband can parallel park just about anything. And me? I stopped trying as soon as I gave up my Nissan Altima. It is just too hard to see out the back and sides of the van, and its size doesn't help. But I don't think I would want to parallel park the Pilot, either. So I'm not much help there.

If she considers herself educated or highly educated, then she will have some comfort (as I have) in knowing that Ody drivers are on average more educated than other minivan drivers. So at least she'd be driving the "right" minivan.

Let me just say something about seat belts.

For someone to sit in the third row of the Pilot, they have to use this funny seatbelt combo that comes from the ceiling and meets up with the lap belt. In other words, fine for always-using daily trips, but if you like to keep the seat folded down sometimes, and use it other times, you have to get that seatbelt hooked up every time. I believe the middle seat on the second row has the same deal, but that is not a seat that typically gets as much use.

The Ody, on the other hand, has that funky seatbelt only in the middle seat, third row. The other third row passengers have regular seatbelts that are always ready-to-use. Just a thought.

Now let's talking seating. Are you considering the Ody with the little mini-seat option? If you are, then that is great, you are getting a great seat arrangement there. If not, then think about this: The Pilot would technically seat MORE people than the Ody. (8 versus 7)

Fun to drive? Well, I guess I already answered that one. I don't think SUVs are really that fun to drive, either, but in the real world, where Moms can't drive a sportscar, we have to settle for what is the "most fun".

In the end, you will have to weigh utility versus desire, while factoring in some little things.

I hope that helps. I'll be glad to offer more input if you like.

yogamom1 · January 2006

I too am shopping for a new vehicle that will seat more than 2 children. Disclaimers - my children are younger (2 and about to appear) and my need for seating grandparents will be rarer (shorter visits, trips about town only).

I share your wife's dislike for minivans, both the perception of them and the drive of them. To me the drive of the Pilot is significantly better than the drive of the Odyssey. This is the most important safety feature you can have IMO, you must be comfortable driving the vehicle. I am replacing a 98 Maxima Sport with 5-speed, so I drive a little differently than most women.

I love the interior features of the van and have been very torn trying to find an SUV that isn't too big that would seat 6-7 with car seats. To get that minivan set up, you really need a large SUV (2 nice captains chairs with easy access to 3 seats in 3rd row with some leg room). For me to get Grands in with a Pilot, I will have to move car seats to 3rd row when they visit and have them sit in the second row. Big pain, but probably worth it not to drive a van day in and day out. I too hate becoming a gas guzzling SUV driver, but kids and car seats force you to do strange things. And the Pilot is pretty good for an SUV. I can't tell you why the whole minivan thing is such a Mommy turnoff, I can just tell you your wife isn't the only one with it.

As to a long road trip with 6 people and gear, I doubt either is big enough, but that is just me. My husband has no clue how to pack light and I am still figuring it out for little ones. I agree that adults or teens in the 3rd row will feel cramped in the pilot. Having been picked up in the Odyssey by my SIL several times for a 1 hour plus ride, I can attest that it isn't all that comfy back there either for me.

My husband has even more minivan negative bias than I do and has pretty much told me not to get one, he would rather an SUV. He also claims that growing up with a station wagon it was no trouble for the kids to climb over the 2nd row into the back. I disagree that it will be so doable with car seats, but that isn't relevant for you. For me, I will likely have only one extra at a time and can stick the extra kid in the half 3rd row through the back.

On cost, when I went to Honda in the fall, they would deal on the Pilot and not the minivan, so I judged they were similar prices for what I wanted, if not slightly less for the Pilot. I would definitely check this out as the Odyssey is SO popular for vans. Also, this is VA, not SF, so YMMV, the Pilot may be a lot more popular out there.

I will add a note about snow. I too will take this vehicle skiing. Next season in fact, 1-3 times a year is a good estimate for us too. Again, we live in VA, so our mountains are NOTHING compared to driving to Tahoe and I would still be a lot more comfortable driving up the mountain in snow in a Pilot than a minivan. Without real 4 wheel drive you may not be allowed on the roads up there. Course, in Tahoe you may not be allowed in without chains. But snow should never wreck a ski trip IMO. The clearance is also helpful if you really want to take mountain road trips. Can you tell my Maxima had issues leaving Wintergreen Ski Area the one time we went last season? I come from Boston and it isn't like we got THAT much snow, but there was enough around to make it tough getting out of the parking lot and down the hill. A van would have been better, but an SUV better still.

I can't address your trailering issues, sorry. If all you need is a bike rack, the dealer may have the appropriate accessory without getting the whole towing package. I would probably put the bike rack on either vehicle and save inside space for stuff (cooler, backpacks, etc), but that also is just me.

I think you need to decide how important long trips with the Grands is going to be and how uncomfortable your daughter is in the 3rd row. I agree that interminable whining from the back can ruin any driver's pleasure. That could eliminate the Pilot from contention simply because it would not do what you need it to do. Given the Grands are her parents, see what she thinks. My husband would probably be willing to rent a larger vehicle rather than drive the van, which tells you how much he hates driving the van (he has driven his sister's aforementioned van). And DH doesn't even know how to drive my stick shift car and is a pretty conservative driver (learned to drive in aforementioned station wagons).

HTH.

stever · January 2006

Since I'm a fan of boxy minivans, posts like these make me worry that the manufacturers will start making minivans like the Wicked F3R concept.

I don't mind a little style to accompany my box while I'm hauling friends, bikes, skis and snowboards, canoes and kayaks, sheetrock, hay bales and appliances, but if I want tiny little windows to look out of, I'll go shop for a Hummer or Magnum. Sheesh. :-)

Steve, Host

fitguy · January 2006

When I was testing/researching the Pilot awhile back I came across this site for trailer hitches at realisitc price: www.etrailer.com About $130.00 The dealer pkg is just plain a ripoff. Also, to anyone who is considering towing with the Pilot, look closely at the fact that there is NO factory tow package, even though they rate it at 4500# capacity. The hp/torque numbers say it should be capable, but why doesn't Honda set it up to accomodate? I love Honda's, have owned 3, and really liked the Pilot but need to tow an 18' boat that weighs about 3500# loaded, and with 6 passengers and gear the Pilot just won't cut it, plus I worry about the integrity of the transmission towing that weight. I bought a Explorer V8 w/tow pkg instead; but I doubt it will prove as reliable as the Pilot (towing not in the equation). We do, however, really like the Explorer, it tows awesome, and has more 3rd seat room than the Pilot. Hopefully I'll still be singing it's praises 3 years from now.

allison5 · January 2006

I too am in the middle of a car buying frenzy between minivan and SUV. I had put this shopping on hold over the last part of fall into the holidays - just didn't want to deal with it. I have had both kinds of cars, have 3 kids under the age of 11 and go to Lake Tahoe (we live in SF bay area) usually that 1-3 times a winter but always try for more. Right now we have a GMC Yukon (I have a bad back and this one does not have lumbar seats among other issues) but before this I had a 2001 Odyessy. I did love my Odyessy and have been considering buying a new one, but just can't decide. There seems to be a lot of complaints about this vehicle in the forums and I sometimes can't necessariliy see me driving a minivan again. However I loved the ODyessy with the sliding doors, storage (especially with the deep well in way back). I definatly was not very comfy in it for long drives but that is probably just due to my particular back. It is hard for me to find a good comfy car. However I had become one of those moms that was just plain tired of driving a minivan after almost 9 years - so decided to change. Now I am in this predicament again...

I don't know what to do, there are several reasons I miss my minivan but i don't know if I miss it so much to buy another one. Just this weekend we went up to the snow and their was lots of it up there, I did have to put our SUV in 4- wheel drive and did not have to use chains. I have to say that is very very nice not to have to hassel with chains. My yukon worked really well in the mountains. I have to say I have had quite a bit of trouble with it and if I am going to go with a SUV again I am thinking of a Toyota Sequoia. I really like the Pilot, XC90 Volvo, and Acura MDX,but it just does not make any sense when we have 3 kids, sometimes their friends AND a 90 lb Yellow Lab that comes with us quite frequently. SO any advice for me too always is welcome, thanks.

fungarooooooo · January 2006

Thank you very much to everyone (i.e., love2driveinct, steve (host), yogamom1, fitguy, allison5) who contributed to the discussion on "Odyssey vs. Pilot," that I initiated on January 10.

I also apologize for not responding sooner. I have been swamped with two new projects at work, physical therapy sessions after my rotator cuff surgery, Soccer Dad duties, and the arrival of my in-laws from England.

I appreciated the advice from everyone.

We took the in-laws for a test drive and they subsequently managed to convince Louise that the Odyssey was more practical than the Pilot. That seems to have resolved the dilemma and I'm going to e-mail several Honda dealers in the area to request quotes for an Odyssey EX-L. We're going to look for it in Ocean Mist (light blue), which is one of Louise's favorite colors. It's quite an unusual color so it helps to relax Louise's disdain for the word "minivan" itself!

Here are some personal thoughts and information tid-bids that you might find interesting and/or helpful:

(A) The Honda salesman said the service manager said that simply adding an after-market hitch at a non-Honda shop would not void the warranty on the transmission and power steering, as long as it wasn't used for towing. I think one should see this in writing first though.

(B) My mother-in-law really liked the third row in the Odyssey. She found access to the third row easy between the second row captain chairs. She thought that legroom in the third row was comfortable compared to the Pilot. (My seven year old daughter wasn't even able to see over the second row while seated in the third row of the Pilot! She can however see from the third row in the Odyssey, especially if the "eighth" seat in the middle of the second row is stowed away or removed.)

(C) The steering column mounted gear stick in the Pilot is so awkward to use while driving and does not fit the vehicle's sporting image! On the other hand, the Odyssey's dashboard mounted gear stick is neat and so much easier to use in San Francisco's hilly terrain.

(D) As you may be aware, gas prices hit an apex a few months ago (i.e., over $3/gal.) and SUV sales plummeted as a result. In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, gas prices came down towards the $2.30 level. Americans started to get comfortable again with gas prices at that level but I don't think most of them understand that these prices were held artifically low. That's because we received a massive influx of gas from abroad when prices spiked up right after the disaster. Americans also drive less during the winter. Most Americans don't realize that gas prices have been creeping back up over $2.50 already. I believe that we won't see oil at $30/barrel again; it'll stay around or above $50/barrel for the long haul, as China's rapid economic growth (several years of two-digit growth, large population with strong demand for automobiles, etc.) will compete for the world's fuel supply.

I guess SUVs could be unfashionable in the future if gas prices were to rise and remain high for the long term. The Pilot's fuel economy is good for a SUV but will not be good enough if gas prices are high. We hardly see any SUVs in England where gas prices are nearly double what they are in the US.

On the other hand, I think Odyssey will continue to have strong resale/trade-in value, as it is head and shoulders, along with the Sienna, above all others in the minivan category.

I'm 99.9% sure we'll get the Odyssey over the next few days, depending on whether I can get a satisfactory quote.

Again, thank you folks!

stever · January 2006

Ford Could Exit Minivan Market (Inside Line)

The Chicago Tribune says that the minivan market won't grow unless younger buyers are attracted and "the average age of mini-van buyers has crept up to 51, and the segment appeals mainly to Baby Boomers, that embraced the vehicles in the 1980s and 1990s. Many now, however, are grandparents."

That's me without the grandkids....

Steve, Host

tidester · January 2006

Most Americans don't realize that gas prices have been creeping back up over $2.50 already.

I don't see why they wouldn't realize it. Anyone who drives pays for a tankful of gas about once every week and you can't miss the price at the pump.

tidester, host

allison5 · January 2006

Glad that you have come to a decision about what car to get. I think that is a good decision about getting the Odyessy. I am still in a dilema. DO you have any advice for my situation. We just got back from Lake Tahoe again and went skiing. Now for us to go up their 2 weekends in a row is very very rare but once again we left the bay area mid-afternoon and got to Lake Tahoe around 8:00 and it was snowing. We HAD to use 4 -wheel drive so I was so glad we had it. However the amount of gas we used going there and back was incredible. It now cost us 60.00 ++ to fill up now and I am assuming that will go up again. For a while I was at almost 80.00 to fill up at the most expenisve gas. I hope we don't get to that point again but it has creeped higher and I wonder. We see sooo many SUV's here that I find it quite surprising, I do think that a lot of moms (sometimes including me) are not into this minvan thing.

fungarooooooo · January 2006

We got our Odyssey last Thursday. My wife's parents are still in town until Tuesday. Since getting the Odyssey, the six of us, including children and grandparents, have made good use of it.

The Odyssey is amazingly nimble and quick for a minivan. This morning, we went to Muir Woods. As you probably know, the road is winding, narrow, and steep. I found it easy to drive the Odyssey and found it responsive. Afterwards, we went to Sonoma for lunch at a restaurant we chose based on its review in the Zagat.

The whole time, the kids were happy in the third row. The nine year old really stretched her legs out and fell asleep with the seat back in recline position. The grandparents loved the second row captain chairs with lots of legroom, ability to use their own A/C controls, and the retracting window shades, etc.

My wife didn't want me to doze off at the wheel after the heavy meal, so she set the Auto A/C at 67 degrees for the driver's side and 70 degrees for the front passenger side.

She realizes that the Odyssey's actually much nicer to drive than many sedans. It's so much quieter, more powerful, and refined than our old Accord. (I've driven many other cars as well.)

The Odyssey uses regular gasoline, which is great. I am still on my first tank, so I don't know what its gas mileage is like yet. I've read that it gets better after the engine gets broken in. However, so far, it's looking good and I've already done quite a bit of driving.

We love the fact that we can fit in six people comfortably and still have a lot of cargo space and legroom. That wouldn't be the case with the Pilot.

As far as parallel parking, I already parallel parked the Odyssey in inner-city places like Washington Square. It's not that hard to do because the Odyssey does have a tight turning radius.

My wife is starting to like the Odyssey after all.

We aren't a skiing family yet. However, I've heard the Odyssey is quite capable in snow through its front wheel drive. I was told that the Odyssey takes cables instead of chains in the snow.

Gasoline prices should be an issue in this debate. I didn't want to be stuck with a gas guzzling SUV if gasoline prices head back up over the $3/gallon level

Good luck.

mtnman1 · January 2006

I don't know where you people live, but gas prices have not been that high here since October. Today they are $2.17 and haven't been over $2.30 since early December. In fact they were recently under $2 a gallon. They were just under $3 back in mid October and have fallen ever since.

stever · January 2006

We got down to $2.09 for regular here in Boise a few weeks ago. It's jumped back up to $2.23 as of today.

Lots more over in the Report Your Local Gas Prices Here discussion.

Steve, Host

allison5 · January 2006

YOu are lucky that your prices are that low. But here in the San Francisco bay area at least where I live we are paying $2.40. I realize that we pay a lot but it was sooo much worse last fall.

fungarooooooo · January 2006

Even prices around $2.17 aren't cheap historically. In 2002, regular gas prices were $1.08 on the average in the US. They hit $3.03 on 9/05/05, came down to around $2.12 on 11/28/05, and are back up at $2.31 as of 1/23/06. They are higher in places like San Francisco or New York. The underlying fundamental is that oil is now at $69/barrel and I don't think we'll see $30/barrel days again. We're now competing for oil with countries like China and India -- with total combined population of over 2 billion and fast growing economies. China's auto industry itself is booming and making cars even for export to Japan. Sales jumped 179% last year. Gas prices here are already moving ahead of where they were when Katrina struck. I spent several years abroad and could not believe how far Korea has come along, etc., since its currency crisis in 1997.

petras2 · January 2006

after considering both the pilot and odyssey, we also went with the odyssey for the following reasons: cheaper initial cost, better mileage,lower future maintainance costs...(items like tire replacement are cheaper on the odyssey), lower insurance, more interior room for passengers and cargo, better overall value...in my mind the only advantage the pilot had was the 4-wheel drive option which in our area,indiana, wasn't an overwhelming concern...if you decide on the odyssey, you could always rent a 4 wheel drive on those infrequent ski trips when the road conditions are bad...

nitromax · January 2006

Here in my neck of Mass, the prices for mid grade are around $2.59 per gallon. They've been creeping up the past few weeks or so.

fungarooooooo · January 2006

I think Petras2 made a compelling argument for you to get the Odyssey. Yes, it's better value. The Odyssey EX-L is around $2k less than the Pilot EX-L with 4WD.

I just got back from taking my in-laws to the airport with my wife and two kids in tow. I put in the "eighth seat" between the second row captain chairs in anticipation that I would have to fold down part of the third row to accommodate luggage.

To my surprise, the well behind the third row swallowed an entire extra-large suitcase. I was able to stack another extra large suitcase and one medium suitcase on the top of it. I could've stacked another medium suitcase but my in-laws were only traveling with three suitcases. There was more than enough room on the side of the well for my in-laws' two carry-ons and a case of bottled water.

In contrast, I believe the Pilot only has room for a golf bag behind the third row. A suitcase wouldn't fit in because the upper part of the seatback is too close to the window. Furthermore, the third row is a joke, although I've seen worse; there's too little legroom for comfort even for my 9 year old for long journeys.

As we approached the airport, my father-in-law jokingly asked his wife as to where the luggage was. She panicked when she looked around and saw that there were eight seats but no luggage to be seen anywhere. All the luggage was concealed behind the third row, without blocking any rear visibility.

Yes, I agree that the Pilot's only advantage is 4WD. For us, it doesn't offset the Odyssey's pluses. It depends on how much utility value you'd place on the 4WD yourself.

Good luck.

allison5 · January 2006

I do agree with everyone that the Odyessy is probably the best solution. I have looked at the Pilot and with 3 kids the oldest turning 12 this year this SUV does not make a lot of sense. People have said to me my oldest can start to sit up front soon but I am very leary of that even if it is legal. BUt even so what about when we go on vacation, take our 80 lb dog and on and on. SO the pilot is out now but some friends have also said go look at the Toyota Sequoia, Acura MDX (though I think this is too much like PIlot)even the suburban.

I really liked the new odyessy when I drove and sat in it. I loved the sliding doors when dropping off kids at school etc where I do not always have to get out just push the button and door opens. I love the deep well of storage in way back. I do have 1 concern though, on some of these edmunds forums it has been said that people think the drivers seat is not comfy. Like there is something sticking into your back in the middle of the drivers seat. I already 2 degenerative disks in my lower back and this worries me. Yeah when I sat in it it was a little sore but so was the car I am driving when I first bought it. I just had to get used to it. But I am curious on what people think of the seats.

The 4WD is a big plus but it is true that I could rent a vehicle if I were in the snow and bad weather. We go up to the mountains in the summer lots too, bringing bikes, water rafts etc. However their is a lot of storage room in that Odyessy. Still thinking on what to do.....Does everyone think gas prices are going to go up again? That could be a HUGH HUGH decision factor. Some people say that the Odyessy does not get much better gas mileage than SUV's. I tend to challenge that statement.

gagrice · January 2006

How about the Sienna AWD? How does it compare to the Odyssey for room and comfort? I sat in the Odyssey and thought it was the best thing Honda had going for it. My Grandson has a 2005 Odyssey and loves it. Averages about 20 MPG mixed So. CA driving.

fungarooooooo · January 2006

I also concur that you should consider the Sienna AWD to drive through the snow. I don't have much experience with snow but advocates of the Odyssey say it is quite capable in snow with its front wheel drive compared to other similar vehicles and even the Accord (not sure why).

I test drove the Sienna and thought it was nice. The Sienna's ride is more luxurious. In road handling and ride comfort terms, one could categorize the Sienna as the "Lexus" and Odyssey as the "BMW" of minivans. In other words, the Sienna's ride is more luxurious while the Odyssey gives more of a feel of the road. I prefer the latter, as I don't like to "float" on the road. I also find the Odyssey more responsive to drive, with significantly more horsepower.

The Sienna has a telescopic steering wheel that has more steering power than in the Odyssey. Again, its a matter of personal preference.

I liked the seating configuration in the Odyssey better. The Sienna only seats seven if you get it with captain chairs in the second row. Unlike the Odyssey, the Sienna doesn't have a Lazy Susan in the floor. The Sienna has better leather seats, but, to me, that wasn't as important as the Odyssey's road handling and acceleration (to get out of trouble spots). I also much preferred the Odyssey's air conditioning controls.

As for the driver's seat in the Odyssey, I think it is very comfortable for me. (I've read that the Odyssey'd driver's seat is not ideal for tall men.) I like the lumbar support, which is what I think was sticking in your back. I'm not sure but I think you can adjust it, as was the case with my old Accord.

You might even be able to test drive a Sienna for one week by renting it. Some Toyota dealerships have rental outlets for that purpose.

Again, good luck.

allison5 · January 2006

I rented a SIenna AWD a while back to see if I liked that van. There were definatley things that I did like better, telescopic wheel, leather though I felt the steering was too light. The big thing that was a negative factor for me was that the driver and passenger seats were way too short for me. I am tall or at least average I guess for a woman. I am a little over 5"8 with long legs. So in that van their just was not enought thigh support and it made my toes tingle when driving for some reason. I guess someething about not enoght support, my back etc. So the hunt continues on.

explorerx4 · January 2006

are still rwd based. this is what i prefer too. to me pilots, mdx, highlander, etc, are suv styled minivans.
i love rwd, so that's what i prefer to drive. i do split my mileage with a small fwd car, though.

thegraduate · January 2006

May I ask why you feel this way? The Odyssey/Pilot/Highlander doesn't even hint at torque steer. I'm not being difficult, just curious for a real answer. Thanks, ex.

explorerx4 · January 2006

totally legit question. i am not referring to torque steer.
with rwd there are 2 ways to steer. mainly steering wheel, but also throttle. in a corner, you can apply some gas to swing (slightly) the rear of the vehicle to go through the corner.
it is not necessarily automatically that way. i adjust tire pressure for feel. you can adjust the understeer/over steer. some of it my be how i grew up driving. go to a kart track. it's fun, safe and you can learn a lot about handling.

sadboutwindstr · February 2006

I used to support American vehicles also . . . all I've ever owned. However, after 6 transmissions in two different windstars since 1997, I'm done with ford, at least! I'm still researching what to replace my 99 windstar with, but am certainly leaning away from American.

Kirstie_H · February 2006

A reporter is looking to learn about the vehicles of choice for people with large families. If you have 6 or more in the house and often travel as a group, what is your preferred mode of transportation? Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com before Wednesday, February 22, 2006 with your daytime contact info and a few words about this topic.

highender · March 2006

Where is everyone ?

Now that we are 5 in the family....my wife wants a minivan. So here I am, shopping for a minivan. Are minivans better than SUVs? Yes and no.

They are different, and can be used for different purposes.

At one point, we had an SUV, minivan, 4 door sedan,and a 2 seat convertible. To each his own. You pay your money...and you get what you want. If it is not what you thought...then you would change vehicles, and try another type next time..until you realize that this new vehicle has limitations too....over and over.....purchase decisions , decisions....

Toyota now has a 7 seater hybrid SUV that gets 31 mpg city...and 27 highway....
The Sienna is good....but we are considering the Odyssey also.

and the world turns..... :shades:

gagrice · March 2006

Hey man good to see you are still around. We are still debating oil, hybrids, GM and the UAW. Not many of the old SUV haters still around.

I think if a mini van was in my future the Odyssey would be near the top of the list. They are nice. Have not looked real close at the Sienna. Then there is the "R" class Mercedes. Due out shortly in a diesel model. Seats 6 in luxury I'm told.

fred222 · March 2006

Now that we are 5 in the family....my wife wants a minivan. So here I am, shopping for a minivan. Are minivans better than SUVs? Yes and no.
We swapped out our 1995 GMC Suburban SLT for a 2006 Odyssey EX-L last September. I have 3 kids 3, 9 and 13. The 13 year old is 5'9" and I am 6'4". This is our "family trip" vehicle and I was concerned about the possible loss of comfort and space. According to my two oldest kids, they like the Odyssey more than the Suburban for trips. My wife likes the ride of the Odyssey much more. The Suburban has feature that the Odyssey does not and vice versa. However, when it comes to comfort, hauling stuff and safety, there are very similar.

gagrice · March 2006

What kind of mileage are you getting from the Odyssey? Yours has the VCM if memory serves me.

jipster · March 2006

Toyota now has a 7 seater hybrid SUV that gets 31mpg...

If you are speaking of the Highlander... that is going to be an extremely tight squeeze to fit 7....maybe a squeeze for 5 if you have teenagers, as the middle row bench did not appear wide enough to hold 3 comfortably.Would be great though for a 4 person family. The back row seat is very small...large enough for toddlers.

Consumer Reports wrote the Highlander Hybrid gets 22mpg "overall" ...which is much less than what EPA reports.

I would suggest the Mazda MPV...smaller size minivan handles more carlike and easier to park and manuver. Sporty good looks inside and out. Similar in size as Highlander, though seats 7 comfortably.

highender · March 2006

Yes..the highlander hybird is what I meant.

We were looking at the minivan. Got the dealer down to near invoice .....but I am wondering if they would go with the employee pricing.

highender · March 2006

Hey gagrice:

Good to hear from you too. I still have the suburban...and cayenne , and the TL to tool around town.

Wife wants a minivan...and we are considering the Odyssey also. San Leandro and Dublin Honda offered me invoice pricing... Thanks to Edmunds internet pricing !!
I got to trumpet this nice site that gave me so much entertainment and information these past few years...

But I am still holding on the the suburban , since it does so much, and can do so much. Cayenne is getting a little less usage now, I alternate driving them..but mostly we use the TL...for short trips. Driving the TL for long trips is good for the pocketbook of your local physician associations, IMHO. For long trips, we always take either the cayenne or suburban.

I am still on the fence about sienna or odyssey or T&C. I feel like I should give our own industry a fair chance to gain my business, and to have some dollars stay in America.

I think for some families....there is a willingness to have both SUV and MInivan.

highender · March 2006

Hi:
I think we have the same model suburban. Mine has some modifications done by CEO of a telecom co. It has supercharger, custom handmade seats, 5 TVs, and all the extras that go along with the lux ( I would not spend that much to modify a vehicle) . So the kids ( 12 yr, 9 yrs, and 2.5 yr ) all like the SUV.....including the offroad and snow capabilities.

They also like the Cayenne, and last week we took it down the coast on Highway 1 , to go visit Hearst Castle and Pinnacles National Monument. Nobody complained of lousy ride,nor discomfort nor nausea. The view was great. The drive was GREAT , and fun for me....

But my eldest son thinks it is too hard to parallel park the suburban....so he and wife wants minivan...so that in 7 years... we can pass it down to him.

Enjoy your Odyssey ! BTW, what do you think of Honda's Variable cylinder managenment system that deactivates 3 cylinders on highways ?

fred222 · March 2006

What kind of mileage are you getting from the Odyssey? Yours has the VCM if memory serves me.
Our van has only 1900 miles on it. It is not a primary vehicle for me or my wife. That said, we get 18-20 mpg in town and on the one long trip we have been on (800 miles) averaged 27.1 mpg. I am interested in pushing the envelope for gas mileage on this vehicle and try to drive it accordingly. This is the first vehicle that I have owned that I will record every fill up to document the mileage. However, that said, it is amazing just how fast this van can be when merging on the highway. However, every time you put your right foot down and smile, you realize that the mileage will suffer.

fred222 · March 2006

Enjoy your Odyssey ! BTW, what do you think of Honda's Variable cylinder managenment system that deactivates 3 cylinders on highways ?
I do not know if the mileage benefit ( approx. 10%) is worth the mechanical complexity. However, I do get almost twice the Highway mileage in the Odyssey that the Suburban got. Also, three cylinders are deactivated most of the time if you are driving on a relatively flat road not accelerating, so it is not just on the Highway. Part of the reason that I bought this vehicle is that I believe that this country really really needs to reduce its dependency on oil and this was the best way that I could show that. I am not a tree huger. I am about as far removed from that as is possible. I see oil "addiction" as an issue of National Security which impacts the future security of my children.

highender · March 2006

""I do not know if the mileage benefit ( approx. 10%) is worth the mechanical complexity.""

I just bought an EX-L...and think it is nice to have the VCM system... I bought an extended warranty to cover the nav , the RES, and the engine....main items I would be worried about.

""However, I do get almost twice the Highway mileage in the Odyssey that the Suburban got.""

That is close to true. But on local roads and mixed use...I get 14 mpg with suburban, and only 18 or 19 with Odyssey. Not that much different. I was hoping for more.

"" Part of the reason that I bought this vehicle is that I believe that this country really really needs to reduce its dependency on oil and this was the best way that I could show that. I am not a tree huger. I am about as far removed from that as is possible. I see oil "addiction" as an issue of National Security which impacts the future security of my children. ""

that is a nice thought. But the only way....in my opinion, to really reduce dependency on oil, is for all to stop driving...and immediately switch to moped or bicycle or mass transportation. Driving even a Prius is being dependent on fossil fuels..and accelerating the dependency. May be not as much...but still it is not water we are putting in our Odysseys....

There is nothing wrong with being a tree hugger. If we each plant 60,000 trees , it would be like taking away a car from circulation, and not adding to green house gases...which is a really big problem...

I think we need to stop kidding ourselves,,,and admit that any usage of oil...no matter how small, contributes to the problem.....No excuses.

tidester · March 2006

and admit that any usage of oil...no matter how small, contributes to the problem

You first!

tidester, host

highender · March 2006

after you....It is nice to hold open the door for others. So I am doing it for you....

Now with a bow and a wave...

I insist....

explorerx4 · March 2006

glad to see you are posting frequently again. since you and 'tides are holding the door open, i'll just step right through.

thing is, kids don't really care about about oil consumption or emissions. too bad, they are the ones who will have to live with it.

highender · March 2006

Hiya, explorer ! How goes it..?

Be our guest...step on thru...

I agree...alot of kids use precious gas to go cruising around..ala fast and furious or showing off...

now is that good usage of gas...compared to SUV or minivans which generally use more gas ? ( feeble attempt to stay on topic )

We have been busy lately. We went ahead and adopted a daughter ( she is 2.5 yrs old) , so guess what, my wife wanted a minivan....!!! So now we have a minivan and SUV....and a crossoever suv. She nixed the idea of a Prius...she thinks it is too dangerous to merge onto freeway in one of those....oh well.

Since tides and I held the door open for you, you have to bring the Krispy Kremes and coffee . OK ?

Tides , don't you agree...?

tidester · March 2006

Congrats on the new adoption, High!! KKs and coffee are definitely in order.

Is it more fuel efficient to pick up doughnuts and coffee in a minivan than in an SUV? <--- obligatory on topic query!

tidester, host

li_sailor · March 2006

All is still right in the world, I see that "use" is still the same as "waste". Use some, waste a lot, the same. I was worried for a moment!

Ah, but this is not the place, is it.

highender · March 2006

Hiya tides :

Thanks .... She is adapting well to her new environs. We are supposed to be in the same adoption group with Meg Ryan...but she got the VIP treatment....and stayed in Guangzhou to adopt. We met there...but went to Chongqing to adopt. By the time we got back ( all adoption groups meet in GZ), she had left, though our group leaders had autographs and talked with her....

good to see you still holding on ta ya sense of humour, though rather directed it is....

The Odyssey has the 3 cylinder deactivation system (VSM) . Kinda fun to see hte ECO light go on....but wish they put in a real hybrid electric motor.

The prius got out voted due to acceleration (non) by my wife.....

She prefers the SUV to the Prius, though she likes the minivan compared to suburban.

We are taking the suburban up to snow country this coming Easter....carrying lots of kids and snow gear...

take care.

highender · March 2006

Hiya Sails:

Yep...It is real that some people need thier SUVs. As to waste....you know the answer to that. When a person goes cruising....and alot of people do that...is it more wasteful than someone driving a SUV to work, cause they enjoy the vehicle ? Like the ride height ? Enjoy the view ?

OK,,,,I guess to some it is only wasteful if fuel is used in a SUV .....

Hey , sails, why don't you think of a nice neutral topic that would touch on the topic that is foremost on your mind....and put it in the Automotive news section. That way, it will stay, since it reflects ongoing views on this subject. Plus it will get you out of hiding....

maybe we will see some of the old gang...and some new enthusiasts....

stever · March 2006

a nice neutral topic

Funny, Inconsiderate Drivers came to my mind. :shades:

Congrats on the kiddo High!

Steve, Host

SUV vs Minivans

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