Do it yourself brakes..???!!!!!

blkmgk · August 2001

I hear about guys who change or do their own brakes. Now, I know that is cheaper than going to your local dealer and having them do it. But dont you need to have your rotors resurfaced after any brake pad replacement? I currently need to get my pads replaced, but if all it requires is replacing the pads, then whats the deal? I can then take the car and have rotors resurfaced after I change the pads! Its only about thirty bucks for that.

mudflat · August 2001

While a valid argument can be presented
for resurfacing rotors and drums when
doing a brake job, it's been my
experience that it really isn't necessary unless they've been damaged by metal to
metal contact caused not replacing worn
out shoes and pads in a timely fashion.
Minor surface imperfections can be
ignored. If glazing is present it can be
removed with emery cloth. Other details
are more important when doing a brake
job, such as properly lubricating guide
pins and other surfaces, checking wheel
cylinders and hoses for leakage and
taking proper corrective action, and
flushing out and replacing old brake
fluid every three years. Some
manufacturers have specific
recommendations for their cars, and these should be adhered to.
The front end of a car is usually more
sensitive to various problems than the
back, so if steering wheel shake or other oddness is experienced when braking,
double check the front brake, suspension, and steering components.

wtd44 · August 2001

...until you stated that every three years you must drain, flush, change, whatever, the brake fluid. How about every 50 to 150 thousand miles (as needed and detected by inspection) suction out most of the reservoir chamber fluid and replace with new for some degree of cleaning by dilution. If a knowable brake fluid related problem exists, then do the "BIG" job.

jlflemmons · August 2001

If you do not have any vibration or "surging" when braking, the pads have not gone to metal, then leave the rotors alone. Many a good rotor has been destroyed by an improperly maintained brake lathe and/or operator. Just the other day a friend had his rotors turned and then developed a strange clacking sound in the front end. Seems the lathe operator tried to rush the job and did a spiral cut on the surface. This occurs when the cutting tool is moving too quickly across the surface and leaves a cut similar to looking at a record. When applying the brakes, the pad tries to follow the groove until it finally snaps back to position. Rotors had to be re-cut, so he is now down about 50% of the usable material on the rotor. Know your machine shop.

Jim

dunkmydonut · August 2001

I have a 96 ford E150 while under warranty the dealer changed the HCU, I've had spongy brake pedal ever since. I've been back 6 times only to get the usual bull about the pedal feels normal to them. I've done many brake jobs in the past, but not ABS. Is there some way I can get the air out without expensive equipment PIN for example?

lngtonge18 · August 2001

ABS brake systems have 2 separate systems. You can still bleed the regular brake system as you did on all those other cars. It works the same. However, bleeding the actual ABS system is a whole different matter. I believe this requires special tools. At least it did on my mom's 92 Accord. However, the brake pedal feel should not be effected by the ABS system unless you engage it. So, therefore, your spongy pedal is most likely caused by air in your regular brake system which can be expelled in the same manner as pre-ABS cars.

0patience · August 2001

Let me ask you this. If you need the rotors turned on your vehicle, it is about $21 per rotor to have them turned, most GM rotors are less than $30 each for new ones. So why would you even bother having them turned?
If a shop does the brake job, they will turn the rotors or replace them. The reason for that, is if there is a problem and they have to get reimbursed for warranty from the brake pad seller, if the rotors are not turned or replaced, then they are out the warranty.

If you do the work yourself, then not turning the rotors, forget that lifetime warranty on the brake pads.

0patience · August 2001

ABS brake systems have 2 separate systems.

Nope, nuh uh.
Samne system, the brake fluid runs thru the ABS controller, whether it is working or not. If a problem arises, the ABS controller defaults to a standard setup and you have no ABS braking.

When it is working properly, the controller controls the barake fluid to the brakes.

lngtonge18 · August 2001

I should have been more clear about my statement. My mom's 92 Accord had 2 separate brake fluid reservoirs. One for the master cylinder and one for the ABS controller. I know they are connected, but apparently are separate to a certain extent. I just figured other ABS systems are like this. The manual had 2 completely different ways for bleeding the 2 reservoirs. The regular system could be bled through the bleeder valves whereas the ABS controller had to be bled using special tools and some kind of pump that only a dealer would have. Was I at least right that air can be bled out of an ABS-equipped car the same way as non-ABS cars?

0patience · August 2001

Yes, the brakes are bled the same as regular.
One thing when doing brakes on ABS controlled brakes, if you compress the caliper piston and push the fluid back up the system, you take a chance on damaging the ABS modulator. Contamination from the claipers can be pushed back up into the ABS system and damage it.
Didn't say it will, just that it can.
Something to think about.

wtd44 · August 2001

A little play on words. Sorry. A friend who works for NAPA tells me that when you do NOT turn the discs, you should do some serious glaze breaking with "sand paper" of some sort, doing it by hand or machine. I tried using my air driven orbital sander, and chewed up the sander's pad due to the cramped quarters. He emphasized doing this job in a very random pattern so that the brake pad would not "travel" as described in an earlier posting.

jlflemmons · August 2001

Whoee! I never had to pay more than $8 a rotor. If you have to pay $21 to turn the sucker, you probably are better off just replacing them!

dhanley · August 2001

On my saturn i did the brakes; i think the whole job cost me $70 with new pads and rotors, and a big can of fluid i didn't end up using.

What can i use old brake fluid for?

dave

0patience · August 2001

Yep. $21 per rotor. Only two places turn them anymore, so they charge machine shop rates.
I have a brake lathe at home, so I can do them, but use it mainly for pickup drums and flywheels.
The machine shops are trying to make ends meet, they charge for everything now. Waste disposal and all that.

wtd44 · August 2001

I bought the "top of the line" (but strange brand) brake pads at a chain auto parts store for the '93 Explorer I owned at the time. 10K miles down the road, the passenger side front disc pads fractured/disintegrated, leaving the backing plates and my wife stranded. She crippled it home the half mile needed. I am now a believer in buying very good quality and brand name pads and shoes! Yeah, the '93 Explorer brakes were notorious for inadequacy. Perhaps the point is that some off-brand pads do not have good adhesives that resist heat properly.(?) I went to Raybestos and the troubles were over. I traded the rig off after some 40K more miles, and just one month before the stuff hit the fan about Explorers and tires equalling danger. I got lucky!

andre1969 · August 2001

for $30.00? If they're really that cheap, no wonder they're warping! Then again, the last time I had to buy rotors, it was for a '79 Newport. I think they were about $70.00 a piece.

bretfraz · August 2001

Prolly the easiest thing for the DIYer is to buy pre-loaded calipers and pop them on.

You can buy great quality brake parts and tools at places like "a-1brakes.com" and the Eastwood Company. Also Wrenchead.com and CarParts.com have all kinds of stuff.

Brakes are pretty easy to do and can save you a ton of money. But it does pay to buy the best quality pads and shoes. A similar event happpened to me as what was described in post #15. I went to Bendix brake parts and was very happy.

Oh, before I forget, to "break the glaze" on drums and rotors, 3M sells all kinds of abrasive pads to do the job. Check them out a MMM.com and click on "automotive products" then "abrasives". Your best off using a good drill with an eccentric shank so the pad will grind in an orbital manner. Don't think of using your disc sander as it's too big and fast.

jlflemmons · August 2001

Are usually very inexpensive as there is not a hub, just the disc. The other thing I have noticed is that a lot of the smaller imports do not use ventilated discs, but solid.

0patience, you have my envy and sympathy. Oregon is a beautiful state, but not inexpensive.

SPYDER98 · August 2001

I've done a few brake jobs on my spyder in the past year. Its very easy taking off the caliper, compressing the piston back in and changing out the pads. Taking the rotors off the front was a big pain in the ### though. I eventually took a sledge hammer and slammed them off since I had new performance slotted rotors waiting for me.
No problems with the abs system...in fact I never even noticed it. I never resurfaced the rear rotors, was'nt worth it in my opinion.

There is one thing I'm unclear about and that is bleeding the brake lines. I would like to replace the brake fluid..but I'm unsure about how and where to bleed the system.

Can anyone give some guidance on how to do this?

Thanks
Rob

swschrad · August 2001

block the wheels, put the parking brake on, put all the keys in your pocket so nobody can turn the engine on. you will be working underneath and if the car moves, all the soft parts between your hip and armpits will likely be flattened. this is not good for your health.

on the back of the brake assembly (crawl underneath and get an eye full of old dirt and grease), above the axle, there is a fitting that looks pretty much like a greasing zerk. It screws in. You attach a clean hose on the top of the fitting by pushing (use a clear one so you can see if you have bubbles, or if the brake fluid is anything but clear.) off-color fluid (rust red in any shade) should be fully flushed, there is water in there rusting your brake system. the free end has to be below the level of a jar with some clean, new brake fluid in the bottom, this to prevent screwing up and sucking air into the system.

you should clean up the area with some alcohol-type brake parts cleaner and dry it before getting the wrench out and backing the fluid fitting out just enough to break the usual rust and road crud. stop there. this fitting being tight or loose is the valve to open the fluid passage or shutting it down. if you break this fitting off, you are Stuck Outta Luck.. it's tow time and if they can't back the fitting out, you have to replace the whole brake frame for the wheel. if you have to use penetrating solvent to get it loose, do so... BUT... once there is ANY movement on moderate wrench pressure, STOP and clean all traces off with alcohol-type brake cleaner, dry the area, etc. any oils and brake fluid don't mix, it rots all the seals.

shade-tree style, having previously insured the car isn't going to move over you without a nuclear war breaking out, next step is to get a buddy who is smart enough to put the brake pedal to the floor when you command, and even more rare, let it up ONLY when you command that. if the pedal comes up before you shut the fluid drain fitting, you suck air into the system. then it doesn't work.

insure the fluid resivoir is full, and never let it get below halfway down, with clean, new brake fluid of the proper DOT rating. anything that was opened and resealed is full of water and will rust the system, pour it in the recycle bucket now. I had two quarts worth when I redid a car a few years ago standing by, and used almost all of it.

NOW you are ready. back the fitting off a bit, have your buddy BRAKE. back it off until fluid flows into the jar. when the flow basically stops, the pedal should be all the way down. turn the fitting clockwise to shut the "valve." have your buddy let up on the pedal slowly... if fluid moves back into the brake assembly from the hose and jug, crank the fitting tighter to prevent it.

repeat until fluid is clear (if you are flushing rusty old crud out of the system) or until there has been no expelled air bubbles for two additional pushes. OK, that's a little paranoid, but these are brakes... don't cheat. if nothing else works on a car, the brakes MUST work properly, or you are a weapon, not a driver.

move on to next wheel.

repeat until all wheels done.

I found I had to replenish the fluid in the resivoir every couple of pushes or so. if you have a third buddy lollygagging around, have them replenish fluid, close the cap, and announce when he is adding and when he has finished, so you don't run the master cylinder dry and suck air into everything, meaning you will have to start all bloody over and go for quite a while.

break out the refreshments when you have successfully test-driven down the alley to a firm pedal and not gone through the garage at the end of the alley.

... or have it done for you....

gsleve · August 2001

During my research over the years and have gone to some brake seminars it has been suggested that the proper method for changing out brake pads, more so with ABS is to clamp the brake hose with an appropriate tool, use old radiator hose to protect the brake hose from damage.

Attach a see through 3/8 clear hose on the bleeder screw and open it push the piston in fluid will expel out of the bleeder and through the clear hose into a jar or apparatus to catch the fluid, by the way apply a little anti-sieze to the brake bleeder for easier removal at a latter date close bleeder screw

Replace pads and lubricate contact areas and caliper pins back of pads with synthetic grease or anti-seize.

If one does not have ABS the same procedure with exception of clamping brake hose.

Bleeding the two front calipers may be a good idea at this time. I've always have had great success with a one man bleeder made by CAL-VAN tools have two of them they contain 2 ball bearings that act as a two way check valve with a spring, used for last 10yrs never had a problem always a great solid pedal.

Pepboys sells a one man bleeder yet has only one ball bearing, it was succesful too.

SPYDER98 · August 2001

Thanks for the great description. Although I probably wont ever chance bleeding the brake system on my car, it just sounds to risky of a task. With my "bad" habit of always cutting corners and learning things the hard way before I finally get it right...makes me feel uncomfortable about bleeding my brake lines. I think I'll leave it to the shop to do

Unless someone showed me some hands on work that I can learn from watching.

Another thing you made me realize is...the lack of precaution I take when working underneath my car. God forbid an earthquake ever started underneath me (Never thought of that). I would of been a squashed duck for sure the couple of times I've worked underneath there with just a simple floor jack and no other support >:O

Thanks for the advice

spyder98

0patience · August 2001

During my research over the years and have gone to some brake seminars it has been suggested that the proper method for changing out brake pads, more so with ABS is to clamp the brake hose with an appropriate tool, use old radiator hose to protect the brake hose from damage.

No. It is NOT an acceptable practice to clamp the brake hose with any tool.
It is a dangerous practice and can damage the brake hose, causing premature failure.
Clamping or crimping the brake hoses can cause the inner lining of the brake hose to seperate from the hose, collapsing it, cuaisng either no braking to the front or locking the front up.
On older hoses, this can cause quick failure of the area where the clamp was installed.

One acceptable procedure is to open the bleeder valve, attach a hose to a recovery pan or container, then compress the piston into the caliper slowly, allowing the fluid to go out of the caliper thru the bleeder and hose. with the hose full of fluid, no air should back into the caliper. Once the pads are replace, it is a good idea to bleed the system, regardless.

The preferred method of bleeding the system is with a pressure bleeder.

jeber · August 2001

Not getting into the technical details of some of these posts, which are useful, but my 2 cents is:

Putting on front pads is incredibly easy on most cars, a bit more involved on others. Get a factory manual (most accurate, but high dollar) or a chilton's (cheaper but very useful). These can show you, with photos/diagrams, how to do it.

Even w book, dismantle one side at a time, so you have a model of how to get the d*#% thing back together! Make sure you keep an eye on fluid level when pushing in piston for new pads.

Rear shoes (drum brakes) are a bit more tricky sometimes, but usually do-able if you have any mechanical aptitude whatsoever. Some models' drums/shoes call for special tools, although you can often improvise.

I've never had a car w rear discs, I assume they are similar to front.

I've never had any problem not turning rotors; only if brake pedal "pulses" or obviously if you see problems is it really necessary, in my experience.

I usually clean everything w brake parts spray, lube what manual says to lube, take care not to lube what manual says not to lube.

Save lots of $ doing it yourself.

After several instances over the years of ridiculous b.s., outright incompetence, and attempted rip-offs from various dealers/repair shops/garages, I do anything & everything myself that I possibly can, including brakes. An old cliche, but I've found it to be true: if you want it done right, do it yourself!

wtd44 · August 2001

NAPA sells a very good tube of silicon lubricant that is perfect for brake parts that must slide over guide pins and such. I had to store my tube in a zip lock bag when the cap to the tube fractured in half under only moderate pressure. The convenience is now poor, but the product works very well.

andre1969 · August 2001

Only do one side at a time...that way when you mess up or get confused, you'll at least have the other side to reference!

wtd44 · August 2001

Haynes and Chilton books are of great value to prevent procedural mistakes you can later regret.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2001

And PLEASE keep brake fluid off the car's paint and out of your eyes! (goggles).

swschrad · August 2001

being a news photographer in a previous life, I have respect for things that squish and mangle. I also grew up as a "broadcast brat", and no equipment in a professional studio was ever considered installed if it could have been moved with bulldozers or dynamite. so that's the attitude I've got... all I've ever had to deal with are the usual skinned knuckles and piece of sand in the eye when monkeying around with my wheels. oh, yes... my $1.98 set of flexible goggles has lasted a long time now, somewhat yellowed, but I don't get sand in my eye any more.

if you can tie it down and make it solid enough to bounce on and wrestle against, it ought to be safe to work on... but I think the line from the chilton manual is probably the best advice in the book...

if you're not sure about your abilities or the safety of the job, leave it to a professional.

now, if I'd just paid attention a few years ago and not tried to take off that water pump myself...

SPYDER98 · August 2001

"if you're not sure about your abilities or the safety of the job, leave it to a professional."

Wish I was smart enough to know that when tried fixing a sticky throttle cable on my old CRX. "Bad Idea"...I took a screwdriver head and began tinkering around the throttle body area. Sure enough...a minute later my check engine light turned on and never shut off again. Along with the annoying 1 second hesitation my car developed while applying throttle.

Not even a honda specialist knew how to fix the problem :-/

then there was the time when......oh nevermind

blkmgk · August 2001

Can I install the brake pads myself, even though I am beginning to feel a slight pulse when applying the brakes?
(I have replaced pads before!!!)
I need to change them. I dont think that it is worth paying $300 for replacing the front brakes is really worth when I know that I can do the same thing except for resurfacing the rotors.

wtd44 · August 2001

I did that very thing once, when living in a very small country town. I got the pads from J.C.Whitney, to boot. I was very lucky and the pads were VERY good. It all worked like a charm, but the pulsations were still there.

q45man · August 2001

After reading some of the DIY post it should be mandantory that people who do their own brakes post a large sign on the front of their car so I can quickly get out of the way when they tail gate me at 75 mph.
No wonder there are so many rear end collisions....the warped rotors and hard [no stop] cheap pads, water contaiminated ages old black brake fluid which boils before the stop is complete.
Almost as scarey as a 6500# SUV behind you [30 feet] that takes at least 45 feet longer to stop than my car.
Please for my sake be careful when you do your own brakes.

wtd44 · August 2001

Was it Harry Truman who said, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."?

andre1969 · August 2001

...till you've driven a '67 Newport with NO brakes! Don't worry, they'll still work, even with no fluid in 'em...they just start pumping air and take a litttle while longer to stop ;-) Besides, what's the big deal...you still have the emergency brake, perfect for any emergency! Not to mention 1st and 2nd gear!

tboner1965 · August 2001

After reading and experience the service at some shops, you may want that sticker indicating that the brakes were serviced by XYZ Brakes for $49.99.

Brakes are one thing I don't cheap out on. I do the labor myself and buy the best pads/rotors/hardware you can get.

Cheers,

TB

andre1969 · August 2001

I have a friend who recently got new brakes put on his '95 Grand Marquis. When he got the car back, it didn't stop quite right, so he took it right back. It turns out they forgot to put the new brake pads on, and the calipers were just sitting there, loose! It's a miracle the thing stopped!

isellhondas · August 2001

Guys...please...some of the questions and stories here have scared me a bit.

These are your BRAKES we are discussing!

I'm all for saving money BUT, if you don't know what you are doing or lack the necessary tools and equipment, leave this important job to a pro!

Also, as someone else said, changing your brake fluid is very important since the stuff absorbs water. It will turn to steam during a hard stop and you will have no brakes!

wtd44 · August 2001

When careening down a steep mountain pass at excessive speeds, that steam rising from under the hood out of the master cylinder, lines, calipers, etc., sure makes seeing the road a chore!

blkmgk · August 2001

everyone has a point(somewhat), and maybe you are just better of paying the "extra" couple of dollars(unless you ARE experienced and know what you're doing) and getting the job DONE RIGHT the first time. I like saving dollars too, but I'd rather drive out of the shop and get home safe than end up someone elses rear end or home or storefront or lake or river or you get the idea.

wtd44 · August 2001

Anyone that feels really uncomfortable with the task should leave it alone, and have their choice of "expert" do the labor for them. Be careful. I have found few experts at anything in the last decade or so. This nation is in transition. Pride in work is disappearing along with competency. Prices for skilled labor have skyrocketed, while the jobs are being left wanting for quality of results. One monstrously large aid to your comfort level is the Chilton and Haynes manuals, if you are interested in protecting yourself by doing what you can FOR yourself. Now, if you know very competent and reasonable people to do your brake job, and you just don't want to do it, fine. Who would argue? On the other hand, the other guy's inability or lack of confidence doesn't make MY brake job on MY vehicle a danger to him. Audacity is the word that covers the attitude that such limp wrists are mustering.

jeber · August 2001

Its easy for us do-it-yourself types to lose track of the fact that some (lots of) people out there would be challenged by getting the car jacked up & the wheels off, much less doing brakes, etc.

I've been working on "stuff" and fixing and tinkering bikes, motorcycles, small engines, boats, cars & trucks since I was a young kid; its hard to comprehend that there are a LOT of people out there (male and female) who are clueless and intimidated by even the simplest of tasks.

I'm no master mechanic, and although I'm a big fan of all the high-tech, gee-whiz gadgets & computers, I haven't a clue how to work on most of it. But a lot of the basic maint. stuff is still do-able. and surprisingly, quite simple.

Unless you have a trustworthy, competent, honest mechanic/technician (of which there are many, you just have to find one), IMO its a way more dangerous gamble to have the "discount brake & muffler" shop, with a kid with 3 weeks experience making $5 or 6/hour, work on your brakes or change oil, than to just carefully do it yourself.

jlflemmons · August 2001

I have seen some of the brake jobs done by so-called brake experts and I wouldn't trust them to do a decent job on a bicycle. I was taught by the best and had the lessons hammered into my young brain. I have never had a brake job go bad, and I have repaired some doozies. As some one earlier said, get a good manual, good tools, and good materials. And if you are not 100% confident you have done a job that will protect the loves of your life, find someone to check your work. And remember, a car that doesn't start, just sits there. A car that doesn't stop, is expensive.

Jim

julus · August 2001

My 89 Lincoln Mark 7 has been a great car except for the ABS brakes. Lots of rotors, pads and check ups in 100,00 miles. Not just the physical but the electrical as well. It seems that the warning light is always on. The latest problem, which has occurred before ... the pedal is hard but no brakes. What is up with that? It is in the shop now but I would like a opinion before I talk to the mechanic. Is the Mk 7 unique?

wtd44 · August 2001

I suspect I will soon have a brake job to do on my 1998 Pathfinder. I'm one of those guys that gets his strength from Chilton-Haynes, like Popeye from spinach. my dilemma is that Nissan Pathfinders seem to only be published through 1995. Any thoughts on this?
And thanks, JEBER for the great support for we home-tuners! JULUS-- I hope you will strongly consider getting a book on that Lincoln. It really, really helps.

jeber · August 2001

You might call the dealer & order a factory manual; unfortunately you're probably looking at 75 to 100 bucks, maybe more.

I had a toyota one a few years back that was real useful, I've never had a nissan manual........

Mr_Shiftright · August 2001

Mark 7---your power brake booster is failing.

(please don't kill the messenger)

andre1969 · August 2001

you know how when you drive a car with a failed power steering pump, it actually requires more effort than an equivalent car equipped with normal manual steering? Well, is it the same way with power brakes? That when the booster goes, it actually requires more effort than if the car just had manual brakes?

I know it's a moot point, since non-power brakes are probably a thing of the past now even in the cheapest of cars, but I'm just wonderin'

wtd44 · August 2001

failing power brakes can come down to needing a new vacuum hose and connector/plug into the firewall cannister. It happened that way for me a couple years back, on my father's 1972 IH Scout.

julus · August 2001

I should have the answer concerning the Mk-7 brake failure from the shop Thursday. I will share your opinions with them and post the results. Here is an interesting and perhaps telling side bar ... I had to add a quart of brake fluid to get the level up to Max!!! I have never seen any sign of a leak coming from that wonderful car. What's that all about? Is the fluid going into the booster? That sounds too easy but we shall see.

jlflemmons · August 2001

Holy Cow! My first thought was to tell you that as disc brakes wear more fluid goes into the caliper piston and thus the level of the master cylinder resevoir will go down. Never did a job on a Mk 7, but unless that sucker has some HUGE calipers, there has to be a leak somewhere. Then again, does a Mk 7 have dual piston calipers? As I sit here and think about it, with four wheel discs, dual piston calipers, and worn brakes at all four corners you could add quite a bit of fluid. Just have the oil dry handy when the new pads are installed 'cause all that new fluid is going to come right back out the top!

Jim

Do it yourself brakes..???!!!!!

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