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Comments
People can look at the site and see what it says.
P.S. Several people who bought at Towne have posted in these discussions that their Internet price quotes are in fact $XXXX under invoice before applicable rebates. But if you don't want that good of a deal, I'm sure they would be willing to oblige you.
I'm currently waiting for a reply from them.
So, people are really getting the '09 Sonata for less than $14k, which includes destination? Who?
My response from Towne Hyundai:
Good afternoon,
$2,101 is our dealer discount from Invoice. You also get an additional $1,500 consumer rebate on top of the $2,101.
I'm just not used to dealers being so different with their pricing. This is probably part of the reason resale value is so poor on Hyundai's. I still think I got a good deal on my V6 Limited with Nav, though. It was a couple hundred under invoice before rebate. But, they did give me almost $3k more for my trade than Honda and Toyota were offering.
Good luck
--jjf
My apologies to "bhmr59" and "backy".
My response from Towne Hyundai:
Good afternoon,
$2,101 is our dealer discount from Invoice. You also get an additional $1,500 consumer rebate on top of the $2,101.
I'm just not used to dealers being so different with their pricing. This is probably part of the reason resale value is so poor on Hyundai's. I still think I got a good deal on my V6 Limited with Nav, though. It was a couple hundred under invoice before rebate. But, they did give me almost $3k more for my trade than Honda and Toyota were offering.
--jjf
The most BS thing about resale value on cars is that they're generally based on MSRP, not price actually paid. If it was based on street prices, hyundais would have MUCH higher resale ratings. This really hurts american makers as well since they use a lot of rebates. As everyone can see, Honda and Toyota almost never have rebates on their cars. I'd like to see a resale value site that actually estimates real purchase prices and uses that to calculate depreciation. Maybe edmunds can be the first and give some real information to the world.
Sounds like it may be time for a road trip.
FitzMall
The MSRP on the car was $27,800. They sold me the car at invoice and then took off the $1,000 rebate from Hyundai on top of that (I know the rebate has now gone to $1,500). I got $500 for my trade in, a 1986 Dodge Neon sedan. Once T/T/L was added in the price was $26,350 out the door. That is also with no money out of pocket. I got financing through Hyundai at 2.9% for 60 months. My monthly payment is $472. Not bad I think. I paid cash for additional accessories; mud guards, cargo net, trunk tray, sunshield deflector, and a very nice window tint. The white looks a little better with the dark tinted windows, as normally I'm not too keen on the color white for a car.
So far I'm really loving my new car. It was a huge step up in quality, comfort, safety, and luxury from my Neon. I deserve it, I work too hard to be driving around a junker like the Neon. I just didn't want a car payment again so I held off for a long time buying a new car. I'm happy I waited, as I would have missed out on buying my 09 Sonata. In my opinion this new Sonata is better than every car in the midsize sedan class for under $30K. I think the 09 refresh is going to be a big hit for Hyundai, the car is sensational. Makes rush hour driving to and from work a calming experience rather than a stressful one like it was in my old Neon 5-speed manual. The car is so quiet, and with the awesome stereo it's like being in your own private little space, with the outside world completely shut-out. I plan on driving it until it dies, which with proper maintenance is hopefully a very long time.
Around here, they're practically giving Sonatas away - I have no idea how they're making any money at all on these cars.
One good thing - You purchased an '09, so maybe there's hope that they fixed the terrible suspension noise in the previous generation (that was present in every single one I drove or drove in).
Right now, I can get a new '09 4dr Sdn I4 Auto GLS for $15,778 plus TTL.
Here's the exact equipment list they faxed to me, practically begging me to come and buy it for the last two weeks:
FACTORY INSTALLED OPTIONS
(01 ) STANDARD EQUIPMENT GROUP INCLUDES:
- base vehicle only
(-PT ) STANDARD PAINT (STD)
(CF ) CARPETED FLOOR MATS (PIO)
STANDARD EQUIPMENT
EXTERIOR
-Body-color bumpers 1176
-Body-color body-side moldings 1176
-Body-color heated pwr mirrors 1176
-Tinted glass 1176
-Speed-sensitive variable intermittent windshield wipers 1176
-Body-color door handles 1176
INTERIOR
-Cloth seating surfaces 1220
-Front bucket seats w/active head restraints 1220
-Rear 60/40 split-fold seats w/outboard headrests 1220
-Dual tier console w/fixed armrest, storage, (2) cupholders 1220
-Reat center armrest w/(2) cupholders 1220
-Center console mounted 12-volt pwr outlet 1220
-Full floor carpeting 1220
-Door sill scuff plates 1220
-Tilt steering wheel 1220
-Instrumentation-inc: tachometer, coolant temp, trip odometer, digital clock 1220
-Warnings-inc: oil pressure, battery, door ajar, trunk open, brake, check engine 1220
-Tire pressure monitoring system (TPMS) 1220
-Pwr windows w/driver auto up/down, pinch protection, lockout 1220
-Pwr door locks 1220
-Remote keyless entry system w/alarm 1220
-Remote fuel/hood release 1220
-Cruise control 1220
-AM/FM/XM stereo w/CD/MP3 player-inc: (6) speakers, i-Pod/USB/aux inputs, (6) speakers 1220
-In-glass antenna 1220
-Air conditioning w/cabin air filter 1220
-Rear window defroster 1220
-Locking glovebox 1220
-Cloth door trim 1220
-Map pockets 1220
-Assist grips 1220
-Lighting-inc: dome, ignition, glovebox, map 1220
-Seatback pockets 1220
-Rear coat hanger 1220
MECHANICAL
-2.4L DOHC 16-valve I4 engine 1236
-Continuous variable valve timing (CVVT) 1236
-5-speed Shiftronic automatic transmission w/OD 1236
-Shift interlock system 1236
-Traction control system (TCS) w/electronic stability control (ESC) 1236
-Front wheel drive 1236
-Independent double-wishbone front suspension w/gas shocks 1236
-Independent multi-link rear suspension w/gas shocks 1236
-Front/rear stabilizer bars 1236
-P215/60R16 all-season tires 1236
-16" steel wheels w/covers 1236
-Compact spare tire 1236
-Engine-speed-sensing pwr steering 1236
-4-wheel disc brakes 1236
-4-wheel anti-lock brakes (ABS) w/electronic brake-force distribution (EBD), brake assist 1236
NOTE
-**PRELIMINARY STANDARD EQUIPMENT** 1246
SAFETY
-4-wheel anti-lock brakes (ABS) w/electronic brake-force distribution (EBD), brake assist 1343
-Driver/front passenger advanced airbags 1343
-Driver/front passenger seat-mounted side-impact airbags 1343
-Front/rear side-curtain airbags 1343
-3-point seatbelts for all seating positions 1343
-Front seat belt pretensioners & force limiters 1343
-Childproof rear door locks 1343
-Emergency internal trunk release 1343
-Lower anchors & upper tether anchors (LATCH) 1343
-Energy-absorbing steering column 1343
-Traction control system (TCS) w/electronic stability control (ESC) 1343
-Shift interlock system 1343
-Front/rear crumple zones 1343
-Body-side reinforcements 1343
-Hood buckling creases & safety stops 1343
The reason the pearl white paint is extra cost is because the paint process used for that special color is more involved/expensive. You've probably noticed it's not just plain white, but has a lot of depth to it. I think it's a very sharp color, and I think you'll grow to like it over time. It's a very easy color to maintain also--it won't show dust easily, like darker colors will.
Quite a step up from an old Neon, eh? Enjoy!!
An 07 sonata msrp 20300 wholesales now for about 12500. A 15000 or less deal is about what you want. 15700 is exceptional on an 09, you would want to pay around 16500 or so. I suspect. you are near the NY area. They are hardly giving them away though.
They are making plenty on these vehicles. A auto factory worker with overtime makes 12000 bucks/yr or less in South Korea. In the US its closer to $100000.
The last one to leave a GM,Ford or Daimler plant in the US or Canada remember to turn out the lights
--jjf
You have so much information. Any interest in commending my #4797? I'm in Milwaukee, WI.
Sonatas are built in Alabama, at a new 1 billion dollar facility (the 4 cylinder engine is built in Dundee, Michigan, in a joint alliance with Chrysler and Mitsubishi - same engine used by all three automakers). There have been opinions that the South Korean built versions had fewer problems, especially since the suspension noise issue became prominent.
The average worker in Alabama makes about $13.80 per hour, last time I checked - non-unionized.
The wholesale figure you quoted is off the mark by quite a bit - I don't have the exact figures, but margins on vehicles are razor thin, and often, dealers lose money on the sale, and try to make money on servicing and factory installed options.
Hyundai has improved in quality, according to Consumer Reports and J.D. Powers (which I do not respect very much), but they some major issues, the suspension noise issue being the biggest one.
Also, over time, Hyundai's degree of quality degrades faster than most other Asian makes and many American makes, too.
Let's hope the revised '09 Sonata is better than the current version.
All reports are that the 2009 Sonata is much improved over the 2006-8 models, including in ride and handling (and suspension noise). Why not take one for a spin and find out for yourself?
Update: The Sonata's Theta II engine is made in Asan, ROK. This article details the differences between Hyundai's and Chrysler's versions of the engine. Also it mentions that Hyundai is building a Theta II plant in Alabama, which will supply engines to the Hyundai factory and the new Kia U.S. plant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Theta_engine
Should I try to be haggling down to the 15,500 range + TTL? I dont understand how people are getting prices this low. Even with some haggling, I don't think dealers would be willing to go down 1k from their inital offer...am I wrong?
I wonder what vehicle the 'global engine' (which, as you said, shares its block with Chrysler and Mitsubishi) is put into (maybe the Elantra?).
Buying used can save a lot of money, although as you can see from this discussion there are some darn good discounts to be had on new 2009 Sonatas. Yes, if you buy used and don't spring for an extended warranty, you get what's left of the 5/60k bumper-to-bumper warranty. The good news there is that it's 2 years and 24k miles longer than the standard bumper-to-bumper warranties of many competitors, and the same length as some competitors' powertrain warranties.
I think there is some confusion over this "Global engine" thing. It is not in fact a complete engine that is put into a car. It's a design spec for parts of the engine, the spec is shared by Hyundai with partners Mitsubishi and Chrysler, but each automaker has its own unique version(s) of the engines(s) built from the spec. Hyundai's version is the Theta (now Theta II) that goes into the Sonata and other cars e.g. Optima. If you want to discuss this more, we should move it to a different discussion other than "Prices Paid."
Hyundai's Alabama plant is state-of-the-art. But it isn't quite new, being more than 3 years old.
Forget invoice vs MSRP in trying to figure dealer margin. There are manufacturer to dealer incentives. Dealers' aren't losing money on sales. If what you say were true, places like Fitzmall and Town Hyundai would not be seeking buyers from outside their local area. Neither would any dealer more than, say, 30 miles away from a customer. (This is true for most brands.) Who in their right mind would drive 30 or more miles for an oil change?
I haven't seen much lately about a suspension problem and, of those who earlier reported it, most said it was a minor annoyance.
The "quality" of my '05 Sonata has not "degraded" one bit since I bought it (new).
Well I did get the car for under invoice when you figure in the $1,000 rebate from Hyundai. As far as expecting the dealership to sell me a car for $1,000 under invoice without the rebate, I don't think that's really fair. How is a dealership supposed to make money selling a car for $1,000 under invoice? I'm sure that pretty much kills their holdback money. I think the dealership is allowed to make a little money on the sale of a car, no? Hyundai makes a quality product now, and Hyundai dealerships have every right to start making money on the sale of their vehicles. They are every bit as good as any Honda, Toyota, or Nissan and it's doubtful you would be able to purchase a top of the line (as is my 09 V6 Limited with nav) vehicle from those manufactures for a thousands under invoice. If more people start viewing Hyundai as the quality product it is, rather than thinking of them as a bargain basement vehicle to get for dirt cheap maybe the perception and resale value of their cars will start to equal the Honda's and Toyota's of the world. Invoice minus the $1,000 rebate was very generous for me, and I was very happy with the price, nuff said.
"No offense, but that seem awfully steep. I priced out a very similar vehicle as yours (not white, though) for around 21,300 plus TTL."
There is no way you priced a Limited V6 with the navigation system for $21,300. That is about $4,000 under invoice and there is no way I dealer can afford to sell a car at that kind of price. You must have been looking a different model.
"The reason the pearl white paint is extra cost is because the paint process used for that special color is more involved/expensive. You've probably noticed it's not just plain white, but has a lot of depth to it. I think it's a very sharp color, and I think you'll grow to like it over time. It's a very easy color to maintain also--it won't show dust easily, like darker colors will.
Quite a step up from an old Neon, eh? Enjoy!!"
Yes, you're right. The pearl paint is really nice. And I see what you mean by the color having a lot of depth. I guess they must use a different paint process for that color. It was only $200 so I really shouldn't be complaining. I've just never heard of paying extra for a particular color, but then again I'm not the most experienced new car buyer, so maybe it's common and I just don't know it.
Yes, quite a step up from the Neon, and I'm enjoying it very much. The only thing damping my enthusiasm are the ridiculous gas prices. But that's not a fault of the car. I could be driving a scooter and I would still be bummed out by these gas prices. When is the madness ever going to end? It seems like the prices are going up on a daily basis.
That is about $4,000 under invoice and there is no way I dealer can afford to sell a car at that kind of price
See fitzmall.com or townehyundai.com.
These are not end of the month or end of the quarter deals. They have been offering these kinds of deals (varies from month to month) for well over a year that I'm aware of.
Avoid using published figures of invoice as dealer cost. They have been nominal figures for decades. You already got about 4000 off msrp or more depending on how much tax in your state (100 to $2200). This is when you consider almost $2000 of favorable financing. Be fortunate they had some mercy on you, or needed to make a sale. If you paid a lot of tax with the figure you gave otd, you may have approached 22000 on the actual sale price.
When is the madness ever going to end? It seems like the prices are going up on a daily basis.
I assume you mean stabilize and you know 2.70 and 3.00 gasolene is probably stuff you will tell your grandchildren about. Actually its probably cheaper than what it was in 1982 and numerous other points in the last 90 years.
It was pretty ridiculous when you could only get about a gallon of spring water for $1.50 to $3.00 and gas was less. You probably couldn't have purchased a gallon of hardly anything for less than gas at one point. Especially when you consider the complexity of producing and distributing gas vs. anything else.
No, it doesn't come with the nav. The one that is dealer installed uses the space of the overhead sunglass holder and doesn't interface with the audio system. I'm waiting for something aftermarket to come out.
You know why MINI and Scion hold their value so well, because they take very little off the price of the car, because they don't have to! People want those cars and they will pay for them. Hopefully Hyundai will move to that pricing model someday soon, instead of cheapening themselves the way they do. A Hyundai should have the same resale value as all the other big manufactures, but that will never happen if people such as yourself will not buy one unless you're getting it for thousands under invoice, and needing factory incentives thrown on top of that. Sad.
Oh well, I'm driving my car until the wheels fall off and the engine dies, so resale value means very little to me. Most cars after 10 years aren't worth a whole bunch, so whatever money I get from selling it will just go towards the down payment of a new vehicle. Actually it will be another Hyundai, and hopefully I won't be able to buy one for invoice at that time.
I too am hoping Hyundai can cut back on incentives and raise the resale value of their cars... right after I buy my next car!
You're missing the point. Invoice, MSRP, is doesn't matter. You compare features and final price against features and final price of the competition. Hyundai wins in most cases. Resale prices have to be adjusted accordingly for comparison against other manufacturers, since original sale prices can vary by thousands of dollars.
Also on the point of resale prices, as the quality of Hyundai vehicles has come up to, and even surpassed some competition in recent years, so too will resale values follow. It'll just take a few years for that to show up.
FWIW, My Honda did NOT live up to the resale value 'adverstised'. I blame that primarily on the current gas prices, which no one could have forseen 4-1/2 years ago when I bought it. Since no one can tell what will happen that might affect future resale, no one should by a specific vehicle primarily on resale value. I know I won't. I'm more interested in quality, safety and the price today. That's why I bought a new Hyundai.
Imho, resale values are better personally if you're getting a car cheaper. It means you lose a lot less money when you drive the car off the lot. And imho, it doesn't matter at all whether the price is invoice, under invoice, or above, as long as you get the best price.possible. That should be everyone's philosophy here. And I saw some mention of people getting 1000+ under invoice on even Hondas, so it's not like a premiere brand cannot have discounts also.
Hyundais "supposedly" have terrible resale, but the resale value on my old Elantra was pretty awesome because I got a pretty damn cheap deal. I think these hidden prices mean that good buyers will get an advantage of resale over buyers who buy at or over invoice.
There are 2 year old Accords and Civics that sell for near new prices at some of the chain used car auto dealers like Auto Nation, while 2007 model year V6 Sonatas with under 20k miles can be found for 10k to 11k.
I'm not a Honda fanboi, but that's just ludicrous to even make that comparison.
I can, and I have. I don't think it's ridiculous at all. When I do it, I look at dollars of depreciation, not resale percentages (which are misleading when there's a big difference in purchase price). When I do compare, however, I compare apples to apples--not the highest possible price for one car vs. the lowest possible price for another car. And the two Hyundais I've owned have done very well in that kind of comparison. My current Hyundai has an Edmunds TMV for private party sale (I sell my cars myself) of just over $8000, which means in a little over four years I've lost about $5000 in depreciation on it. When I compare that to the dollars depreciation on a like Honda model (which there isn't one, but the closest would be a 2004 Civic EX with leather added), I think the Hyundai compares very well.
I don't know where you are getting your "facts". Many used car dealers advertise their cars at, or near, new car price, but anyone would be a fool to actually pay that price. Therefore, the advertised price is a gimmick so they can lower that price greatly, making some feel like they got an excellent deal, rather than pricing the car realistically to begin with. The possible exception to this is for those buyers with no credit, and the seller floats the loan themselves. The seller is then getting up-front money to offset the possible(probable) default and the cost(risk) of carrying the loan. Anyone who can qualify for a new or near-new car, whether purchased outright or with financing, generally will not be fooled by this type of sales practice. Thus, any car, any brand, can be priced as new, but the actual sales price is usually not know by anyone other than the buyer and seller, and of course the tax collector.
In most cases, if you pay more, resale will be more, dollar-wise. Likewise, if you pay less, the resale will be less. You have to work off the sales price, not MSRP. And percentages can be very confusing as well. A new car buyer has $27,000 to spend. As an example, a new top-of-the-line Honda sells for $27,000, three years later is worth maybe $19,000. That's only a 30% depreciation rate, but an $8,000 loss. A comparable Sonata sells(not lists) for $20,000, three years later worth about $10,000. That's a 50% depreciation rate, a $10,000 loss. If that $7,000 difference had been invested at 5% for those 3 years, that's another $1,100 in interest. So now the "loss" on the Sonata is now only $8,1000, or 42% depreciation. Both cars are now sold. The honda owner has $19,000 left, the Hyundai owner has $10,000 +$1,100 + $9,000, or $20,100. The depreciation rate is greater for the Hyundai, but the owner still has much more money in his/her pocket at the end of those 3 years than does the Honda owner. Which one costs more to own? And what is the satisfaction of owning one or the other worth? This is only an example, but shows that the cost-to-own, in dollars and cents, is more realistic than using percentages. The resale values will change, especially for the Hyundai as customer acceptance rises, making even more of a difference. Bottom line is, if you want, and can afford, a certain car, you probably will be happier spending more, but if safety, reliability, economics and general comfort are your priorities, spending less just makes more sense to many.
Thank God for all the freedoms we enjoy(even the freedom to choose what we drive), and all those who fought to ensure those freedoms. God bless America!!!
LOL. There are 2007 Sonata GLSs (both 4 and 6 cylinders) with under 20k miles all over the place for 10k to 11k. That's a one year old car that has lost half its value in one year.
I like Hyundai and respect the improvements in quality they've made, but their resale values are terrible, and I'd love to see the person that buys your 4 year old Sonata for 50% of what you paid for it. Tell them to buy my Sonata for 30% of its value.
You have an interesting way of playing with numbers.
Thanks,
kyfdx
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My apologies to the degree I took the conversation off course..