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2013 and Earlier - Hyundai Sonata Prices Paid and Buying Experience

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Comments

  • jason50jason50 Member Posts: 55
    Are you referring to Hyundai's past or their current vehicles? I think they have improved over the years. They've come along way already. My friends own a 2008 Sonata and no electrical issues.
  • mikemartinmikemartin Member Posts: 205
    So Lester Glenn in New Jersey is quoting me $14,999 for the basic model and an extra $500 for PEP #1. Is this an average, good, or bad deal?

    On top of that, will be taxes, license, registration and a doc fee of about 180$.

    Thanks for your help in davance


    It's okay.

    You can thank the CFC program for tacking on about an additional $1,000 to $1,200 to your price, though, because I could have gotten that same car for $14,300 to $14,500 plus TTL all day long prior to CFC.
  • billwardbillward Member Posts: 154
    Actually, that looks like a decent price to me, provided that they aren't rebate baiting him. Check to ensure they aren't folding in rebates that few people qualify in that price, such as the Military rebate and the recent college graduate rebate; provided that's true, and there are no hidden "Gotcha" fees (such as "Hey, that didn't include the $720 freight! Or the $500 document fee! Or the $350 SUCKER fee!"), go for it. Look at OTD pricing with the rebates YOU qualify for (check the Hyundai website) and the CARS rebate that is appropriate for you (I have three automobiles that I could have used for a trade in.... NONE of them, including a 1989 Camaro V8, a 1996 Plymouth Voyager V6 or the 1993 Mercury Tracer I4 would have qualified because of the 18 mpg mileage bit; the Camaro and Voyager both are rated at 18, and the Tracer..... much higher, though the Tracer died Monday, with 370K miles and a blown head gasket... RIP) If they are quoting $4500 CARS as part of that, DON'T BITE, as it's then a bad deal. If they aren't, it's decent for the PEP price; you could have done somewhat better in April/May, but it's not bad for current deals at all.
  • 8sparkplugs8sparkplugs Member Posts: 111
    18 mpg does qualify for C4C. It is for 18 mpg and below.
  • jfritschjfritsch Member Posts: 958
    --------------------- This from another forum

    Yowsers! Yep, with the 5% of americans that can qualify for the CFC program hitting the dealers all at once, car prices are propped up. The other 95 % those needing a car now can pay higher prices AND the CFC program through their taxes (eventually)

    Many cars that were selling for $15000 before CFC are now advertised at $17500 or more, with the generous $4000 off from the govt bringing the price down to $13500. (which it would have been for all of us without CFC given the state of car sales and the usual summer clerarance) Awful nice of those dealers to let the pigeon ... er customer keep 1500 of the $4000 don't you think?

    Oh! goody! they are going to EXTEND the CFC program for another 2 months with $2,000,000,000 more cash!

    More pigeons and artificially higher prices for the 95% of car buyers who don't qualify..... isn't government grand?

    Good luck
    --jjf

    looks like the clunker deluge is eroding the consumer power to negotiate
    I will prob wait until this wave is over.
    stranegly I got a deal for LX-S which was lower than LX.
    Are LX-S not popular or was it a mistake of Auto versus Manual?
  • billwardbillward Member Posts: 154
    Check the Hyundai calculator:

    1989 Chevrolet Camaro 5.0L V8 <-18 MPG Combined
    1996 Plymouth Voyager Rallye Short Wheelbase 3.6L V6 <- 18 <MPG Combined
    1993 Mercury Tracer 1.9L I4 <- 35 MPG Combined (and until it literally blew it's head gasket on Monday, it was averaging ~38 with my 20 year old son driving)

    Not a one qualifies for Clunker cash against a Sonata GLS I4 Automatic.
  • fredericofrederico Member Posts: 1
    This is my first post. I&#146;m from Canada and bought a 2009 V6 Limited (all options except Nav & bluetooth) last month from Precision Hyundai in Calgary. Canadian pricing is very different from US not only because of currency but also the &#147;higher cost of doing business&#148; argument that protects the profit margin for many Canadian distributors/retailers. This is what I paid: (all in Canadian dollar, rounded)

    MRSP $31,500
    Less:
    Manufacturer&#146;s rebate 4,500
    Dealer&#146;s discount 1,050
    Add:
    Block heater (installed) 250
    Document fee 386
    Delivery charge 1,580
    A/C duties/tire levy 120
    GST/Sales tax (5%) 1,414
    Less: Trade-in &#150; 97 Camry XLE 2,500 (163K miles)
    OTD price $27,200

    Dealer threw in these for free: floor mats, mudguard, trunk lip protector and first-aid kit.

    In US$ terms, OTD price is US$22.7K (or US$24.75K before trade-in) with exchange rate at US$1=C$1.2 (which is now lower at about C$1.1).

    Can anyone from Canada comment if I have any buyer remorse?
  • scdelanscdelan Member Posts: 10
    Some of those vehicles absolutely qualify for the CFC rebate. Not the $4500 one, but the $3500 and only for certain engine types.

    Use the official government site, not Hyundai: www.cars.gov
  • geetmalageetmala Member Posts: 17
    Newcomer10,

    I think you info about Hyundai's electrical problems is based on previous models like prior to 2006. I thoroughly researched before I bought my 09 LTD. Consumer reports, MototrTrend, Motor Week, and Edmunds don't mention any of these problems. Check out these resources to confirm.

    I agree with you to buy the additional warranty for the added peace of mind. If you can afford the money, it never hurts.
  • geetmalageetmala Member Posts: 17
    Sunny,

    Sorry I don't check the forums everyday so couldn't reply earlier.

    Edmunds is the best place to research all the trim and package info on any car.
    PEP for Hyundai is around $1500 and includes the following:

    "PEP = Popular Equipment Package"
    power driver seat, driver's lumbar support, steering wheel audio controls, automatic headlight control, trip computer, power tilt and slide glass sunroof, chrome window belt moldings and woodgrain accents.

    Hope this helps.
  • geetmalageetmala Member Posts: 17
    Sunny,

    My brother really liked my LTD so we went and get him a GLS+PEP yesterday. He didn't want to spend the extra money for the LTD trim. Here's what we paid for it only yesterday.

    Invoice - $18,517 (GLS + PEP)
    Dest. - $720
    Proc Fees - $349
    PA Tax - $1,196.96
    Tags, title, reg - $202
    Hyundai Rebate - $3,000
    C4C Rebate - $3,500
    ---------------------------------------------
    OTD PRICE - $14,455.96

    We got it in Manassas, VA, but we live in PA. Reason it was $900 cheaper compared to local dealers and that's substantial saving for a short drive there.

    Keep in mind the 09s are going fast due to the cash for clunkers program. The selling dealer had only 23 left so the color choices are dwindling as well. There is only a $1000 rebate on the 2010 models.

    Hope this helps folks looking to take advantage of the Clunkers program.

    CONCLUSION: There are still good deals out there just have to look harder and not get hosed by the dealers. They are still under tremendous pressure to sell inventory that's been sitting on their lots since early this year.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    There are actually two Popular Equipment Packages for the GLS: Package 02, which does not include the sunroof and lists at $650 for 2010, and Package 03, which includes the sunroof and lists for $1550 for 2010.
  • geetmalageetmala Member Posts: 17
    Backy is correct. I got the PEP 03 w/ the sunroof.
  • texasjacktexasjack Member Posts: 4
    I traded my 2007 Sonata SE V-6 in on a new 2009 Limited I-4 for $1000 difference at Texahoma Hyundai in Sherman, Texas. The sales tax was $62.25 and my TEXAS DAV tag is free.

    This is my third Hyundai and I have never had one in the shop for anything!!!!!!!!

    They are the most trouble free cars I have owned in the past 50 years.

    Texasjack
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    That was a great deal going from an '07 SE V-6 to an '09 Limited I-4 for only $1,000.

    Jumping two model years and upgrading from SE to Limited for $500 per model year is unbelievably good. The '09s had quite a MSRP price hike compared to the '07s. While you "gave up" a V-6, the I-4 should be plenty powerful enough and will get better MPG.
  • jc76jc76 Member Posts: 1
    This quote is from the Mesquite Dealership-Dallas
    MSRP: $19,085
    Absolute Hyundai's Price: $18,885
    Manufacturer Rebate $3,000
    Your Final Price: $15,885*
    2009 Hyundai Sonata - GLS 5-Speed Manual 4dr Sedan
    w/option 1
    carpeted floors matts

    btw: I want auto/option 2 ...what would be a good offer???

    Last question-VERY IMPORTANT

    I've owned my 95' Civic since 00', but I moved abroad for 5 yrs and just moved back
    in April. My car wasn't registered during the 5 yrs, and I just registered 2 months ago.
    Is it possible I qualify for c4c???
    I heard dealerships have their "in-house c4c", is that true???
  • geetmalageetmala Member Posts: 17
    jc76,

    Does that include tax? Either way, that's not a good quote at all. Here's what we paid for a GLS w/ PEP1 last week in Manassas, VA. Looks like you're paying at least ~$1500 (less taxes) for a lot less car/options.

    Invoice - $18,517 (GLS + PEP1)
    Dest. - $720
    Proc Fees - $349
    PA Tax - $1,196.96
    Tags, title, reg - $202
    Hyundai Rebate - $3,000
    C4C Rebate - $3,500
    ---------------------------------------------
    OTD PRICE - $14,455.96
    --------------------------------------------

    You Civic doesn't qualify for the C4C program as it only applies to cars 18 mpg or under. www.cars.gov and fueleconomy.gov will tell you about eligibility.

    Never heard of "in-house" C4c by any dealer.
  • geetmalageetmala Member Posts: 17
    Seems like a classic case of sour grapes. Have you walked in to a dealer since C4C started or is it mere speculation on your part that prices have gone up? It's very easy to criticize everything from your lazy boy.

    I can't say this for every dealer but my brother and I have bought two cars using the C4C program, one the first day it was launched, the other just last week. Dealers have so much access inventory since late last year that they are not in any position to raise prices. Of course, there are always greedy ones who will probably loose business. The dealer we got it from has prices advertised on their website and discloses every additional fees transparently (the only one I could find). Those prices have not changed since June 09 as we were looking for deals in anticipation of the program being approved by congress.

    Forums like this one inform folks so that they can negotiate a better deal. Perhaps you can also benefit from the knowledge shared here and try to negotiate a better deal instead of just being ticked off at the govt.

    Moral: Do your research -get a better deal and when you do help others do the same. No whining!

    Granted only 5% of people qualify for the program, still it's way better than watching your tax money going to wall street fat cats. At least, this way I can use my tax money directly for myself rather than watch less than 0.1% fly in jets paid by me to the Hamptons because those poor souls have to shoulder the weight of saving the entire civilized world from soup kitchens and bread lines. Cry me a river!!!
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175
    1) $200 off MSRP before the rebate is a terrible deal.

    2) No way a '95 Civic will qualify for C4C. It only applies to cars with a combined EPA rating of 18 mpg or less.

    Edmunds Price Checker
    Edmunds Lease Calculator
    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!

    Edmunds Moderator

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I have also seen direct evidence of prices (of Sonatas, for this discussion) going up since the C4C program started. I am not whining or complaining, just stating a fact. And we should not be surprised this happened, since we have a free market driven by supply and demand. The Sonata is a desirable car right now, given it's reasonably priced and has very good fuel economy, especially for a large-ish car. So I would be surprised had prices not gone up.

    Here is an example: in my area there is a large chain of dealerships that have a "no-haggle" pricing policy. I track car prices pretty carefully (one of my "hobbies", and no, I don't get out much). This particular chain was advertising Sonata GLS AT with no options prices before C4C in the mid-$15's, before T&L. There were similar advertised prices from other dealerships in town. This past weekend, I noticed the same Sonatas (same base price) advertised by the no-haggle dealer for just under $17k, before T&L. In both cases, a $3000 rebate applied. I have seen comparable increases for popular, fuel-efficient models like the Focus (a hot seller in the C4C program), 2010 Fusion and Milan, and Malibu. News reports talk of dealerships flooded with buyers, sales reps working with 3 people at one time. No wonder prices have gone up!

    So, not the best time for someone without a clunker to buy a new car--unless it's one that doesn't qualify for C4C. Then you might get a real steal.
  • geetmalageetmala Member Posts: 17
    Backy,

    Good for you that you do the research. I will again say that consumer empowerment is what Edmunds and it's users do best. Dealers are always going to lure you in w/ all sort of ways, free market or not. It doesn't change the fact that supply is still very very high than demand. Sure the Sonata is in high demand right now but there's still access inventory on the lots. Perhaps expanding ones reach beyond local dealers is the way to go. That's what we did and saved a lot of money.

    You should put the dealer's info here so buyers can stay away. My experience is to stay far far away from so called "high volume, low profit, no haggle price" dealers, it's usually a sham. Those to me are red flags to stay away from that dealership. I just had my friend who's interested in a GLS check out the Olathe Hyundai in KS and they have 202 Sonatas in stock and a GLS w/ PEP 03 is around $15,600 (rebates applied) and they are willing to deal as well.

    In my case, I used Edmunds to get price quotes from local and regional dealers by explicitly stating that I will only respond via e-mail and will not answer any phone calls and will block all spam e-mail. I got 3 local and two regional dealers w/ transparent OTD door. 5 moronic dealership were sent to trash folder forever. It took me only 3 e-mails to finalize the deal and then drive 2 hrs to take delivery, a minor inconvenience for $1200 savings. The dealer was so thankful that he gave me $25 GC for a local food joint and an extra keyless remote.

    All I am saying is that you can very easily turn the tide in your favor while keeping in mind that the dealership is a business that needs to make money as well. You decide how much money they make off of you. Traditional car buying/pricing has always been somewhat of a blackbox but Edmunds is helping change that. I remember when Edmunds first started TMV pricing, dealers laughed at you when you showed it to them, today almost everyone prices their cars around that number by advertising "below Blue Book" pricing.
  • billwardbillward Member Posts: 154
    Geetmala, the problem is that Backy is RIGHT. I've been following the current gen Sonata closely since 2006; I fell in love with the car at just the point we needed to replace a Ford Taurus on it's 3rd bad transmission with only 98K total miles; we ended up buying a 2003 Sonata instead (couldn't quite swing the new car costs at the time) and loved it; however, I've driven probably 30 Sonatas of every level since then, pricing, comparing, etc. Last fall, we said we'd finally buy the new Sonata in the June/July time frame (actually glad we went a couple months early now!), and we found the best buys we could from March on... and prices were absolute rock bottom in March. They inched slightly higher in April, and were fairly flat in May. However, in late June, prices rocketed up, and the folks reporting what they were getting were finding deals that were $500-$1000 more for "Good Deals" than what could be had in March. Now, they're ~$1500 more than what they were.... I got a better car than YOU did (same basic car, but with BlueConnect) for less than you paid, with NO trade in, NO C4C, for $200 LESS for the base price pre TTL than you just reported your friend got (now, if he got PEP w/Sunroof, then I'm slightly mistaken; you got $700 for your trade in, effectively, in that case, but it doesn't change the POINT of the arguement).

    Dealers have raised the "bottom line" prices they charge... they're pocketing the excess (not access) money as profit. You "got" a $3500 C4C allowance that the government paid; you actually benefited $700 but gave up your trade in for free to get it. The dealer pocketed the rest as pure profit.

    And for the guy who DOESN'T have a C4C, it's a VERY bad deal, as the dealer isn't going to give him a break since he doesn't qualify; he's going to laugh his way to the bank.

    Best thing for the consumer, NOW, was for C4C to DIE. Instead, they just gave it another $2B. Me, personally, I'd rather they had just given a tax credit next April 15th to everyone who bought a car that got good enought mileage in CY2009 (say, $1500; would have worked out about the same, in the end, but wouldn't have lined the dealer's pockets so much and would have caused a bigger stimulus).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    There is hope...news report today mentioned traffic is beginning to slack off in dealerships, one reason being the models that offer the highest fuel economy are growing scarce. Maybe folks are put off by the higher prices also?

    BTW... re another comment--the Walser dealership chain in MN is NOT a "sham." They have a long-standing "no-haggle" pricing policy. They tend to offer pretty good discounts on their cars, in my experience. Are they the lowest prices that an expert negotiator could get? Probably not. But they are after the buyers who don't like the typical car buying experience, the pressure, the negotiations, the "games" some dealers play. They are pretty successful so it seems there are enough people who like the way they do business. I've found them pleasant to work with in car shopping over the years. Only bought one car from them, a 2004 Prius, as they were the only dealer that offered any kind of discount on the car at the time I bought it. (And I never took delivery, but that is a long story.) Came pretty close on a couple of other purchases, new and used. For people who like to negotiate, there's many other dealers to choose from.
  • geetmalageetmala Member Posts: 17
    Billward,

    This is my first Hyundai and I love my Sonata so far. It&#146;s way better value than Accord and Camry. Since I usually drive mine forever till they die, resale is not an issue. Thanks for sharing your experiences, it makes me feel just that much better with my purchase. I am sure you&#146;ll enjoy your for some time to come.

    Few people here report prices hikes after CFC so it must be true to some degree. Seems like we got lucky with static prices after CFC went into effect OR by your account we were just plain duped into trading our clunkers for peanuts. I traded in a &#146;99 Ford minivan with 179K (surprised it lasted that long &#150; it barely did) and the other was a &#145;97 Seville, 162K miles, that had just started to show signs of overheating. Both were worth less than $1000 trade-in.

    I am curious to learn how much did I overpay compared to March prices. So, please share your OTD price breakdown. Here are my price breakdowns again.

    2009 Hyundai Sonata, LTD, 4cyl
    Coco Metallic w/ Coco interior
    Options - Navigation, Bluetooth, Floor Mats, Cargo Net, Cargo Tray, Mud Guards
    Polymer Paint Protection, Nitrogen Filled Tires (these cost the dealer $40, $15 so I don&#146;t consider them part of the deal, although the dealers charge $499-599 & $70-90 for these &#150; what a rip off!)

    Negotiated price - $22,395
    Freight - $720
    Proc fees - $349 (only in VA)
    Tags, title, reg - $202
    Sales Tax - 1,429.14
    Hyundai Rebate - $3,000
    CFC Rebate - $3,500
    ---------------------------------------------
    OTD Price - $18,595.14
    ---------------------------------------------

    2009 Hyundai Sonata, GLS, 4cyl
    Ebony Black w/ Gray Interior
    Options: PEP 03 (sunroof), Floor Mats, Cargo Tray & Mat, Mud Guards (I think I miswrote in earlier posts that it was PEP)

    Negotiated Price - $18,517
    Freight - $720
    Proc Fees - $349 (only in VA)
    PA Tax - $1,152.22
    Tags, title, reg - $202
    Hyundai Rebate - $3,000
    CFC Rebate - $3,500
    ---------------------------------------------
    OTD PRICE - $14,442.22
    ---------------------------------------------

    BTW: I just called the same dealer and they are out of 09 Sonatas and are expecting 01s next week w/ only $1000 rebate.
  • geetmalageetmala Member Posts: 17
    Backy,

    I know quiet a few people who love the idea of "NO HAGGLE" pricing and always go to those dealers. And most in my area claim to have such pricing. It's a matter of pure personal preference and certainly not for me. From my perspective, one needs transparent pricing instead of the black box approach.

    My aversion to such dealers comes from truly arrogant dealers like the one who always has the biggest ad in all newspapers and on TV for NO HAGGLE pricing and when I walked in last year they told me that they are having a special sale this week and I can pick up the new Accord EX for the sticker price as usually there is at least a 10% markup for these extremely high demand black on black models. Surely, it was 'NO HAGGLE' but I felt that I should be thanking my lucky stars that the dealership is bestowing a huge favor upon me and I don't have to sign-over my first born to get the car. Needless to say, I was out of there within the minute never to revisit. Of course, they are one of the biggest dealer in my tri-state region and have been for the longest time, but they are NOT for me. I am willing to pay a bit extra for a courteous and pleasant buying experience.

    BTW, my local Costco's price for the same car was $2,635 less delivered to my home. I just didn't think it was good value even at that price. I didn't like the awkward exterior styling and the equally hideous interior of the new Accord. Again, a matter of pure personal preference.
  • billwardbillward Member Posts: 154
    Geetmala, my BUYING experience is at this message; however, to sum it up (top of my head) I paid ~$15630 for PEP w/o the Sunroof, but with Blue Connect for the GLS I4 Automatic, floormats, and the IPOD cable; the MSRP is $900 for the sunroof, so set that to $16530 plus a small bit because I didn't get the mudflaps (and didn't want them). Your price is almost EXACTLY $2000 more than that amount, so I guess you did do better than the 700... by almost exactly the sunroof (as I mentioned in your message, if your PEP was with the sunroof, you did somewhat better than that. Of the $3500, you got $1500, but had to give up you old car; you said it was worth less than $1000. If we assume it was worth $500, you pocketed $1000 of the C4C money, and the dealer took $2500.... and that's since I bought in MAY, when prices had already started the rebound from the low of March (of course, in reality, you did even worse; the TMV for the sunroof is NOT $900, it's something like $710, IIRC, and your trade in was STILL probably worth more than $500... that's what I'll get off my taxes for donating my son's now dead (since last week) 18 year old Mercury Tracer with 370K miles on it to the Kidney Foundation. Your OTD price is lower... because I didn't do a trade in at all.

    Don't get me, or Backy, wrong... you might ACTUALLY end up paying less today with C4C.... but the average amount is ~$1K and giving up your old car "free". If the old car really is worth nearly nothing (like the Tracer, except of course it wouldn't qualify for C4C....), bonus. But if the clunker itself has any value, you get even less. And the $3500 (or $4500) that it's costing taxpayers isn't worth it. And for the poor guy who doesn't have a handy clunker that qualifies....... it's not a good time to buy, at all.
  • geetmalageetmala Member Posts: 17
    Billward,

    Given my limited math skills, let me see I understand this correctly.

    If your $15,630 is OTD (incl taxes, freight, and options lets say for ~$2000-2400), then, YES I certainly overpaid by >$2000 than you and negated all of the C4C benefit w/ my free trade.

    However, if the $15,630 excludes taxes, fees, and freight then my comparable price is $14,106+$1411(PEP 03) = $15,517 - $3500 (C4C) = $12,017 which as you can see is much less than what you paid. Hey I am just trying to feel better here..... OK.

    Maybe I need to understand the tax code again, as I always thought the value of donated car is applied towards your deductions as a line item and NOT taken lump sump as a tax rebate - big difference.
  • geetmalageetmala Member Posts: 17
    My apologies to all for hogging this forum w/ these back and forth messages.

    Let's just agree on a reasonably good price for GLS+PEP and LTD trims. Here's what I can tell everyone based on our purchases.

    GLS+PEP 03 = $15,500 (incl $3K Hyundai rebate) and $12,000 after $3.5K C4C

    LTD = $18,000 (incl $3K Hyundai rebate), and $14,500 after $3.5K C4C

    Use these prices as a starting point to negotiate. And try to find a dealer that still has enough inventory of 09 Sonatas. At this point, color/option choices maybe limited as supplies dwindle.

    Good luck and enjoy your new Sonatas to the fullest.
  • mikemartinmikemartin Member Posts: 205
    CFC is a dealership taxpayer transfer payment program.

    Whether you've bought a car or not, taken advantage of this boondoggle or not, you can rest assured that your taxes are being used to ensure dealers can ask MSRP for their cars, sell a boatload of cars to people thinking they're getting a good deal, when in fact, they'd had been better of buying 3 months ago with no trade in (they could've sold that for gravy, 3 months ago).

    This program should be called TFD (Taxdollars For Dealerships). New car dealerships LOVE it.

    In the case of the Sonata, a new GLS with PEP, auto, could have been had from Fitz for $14,300 3 months ago, AND you could have sold your "clunker" and taken that income off that price.

    Now, Fitz has the same car at....ta da!!! $16,000+.

    Ain't government meddling grand?
  • billwardbillward Member Posts: 154
    As I said, you actually probably DID pay out of pocket less than in May (and as I said, by the looks of it, comparing direct apples to apples, my calculations say you got up to $1500 in your pocket of the C4C money, if your trade in was worth $0) but their are two caveats; The first is that you get "Nothing" for your old car; you could also translate that as "I got the difference in what Bill paid and what I paid for my old car as the trade in". That may/may not be a good deal, depending on the car. The second caveat is that you now have to pay for the $3500 or $4500 in increased taxes, or decreased govenement services; you only pay your share, of course, but EVERYONE now has to pay. For the $3B, that means that for every man, woman, and child in the country, C4C has cost us EACH $10, on average. For my family, at my tax bracket, it's closer to $55. Of our share, the dealerships around the country pocketed about $40. $15 went to buyers (such as you) that used C4C. I don't mind the $55, per se, but I'd much rather have had those number be reversed in that case.

    C4C might have actually been helpful, briefly.... but now it's just welfare for the dealerships. It's also raised the price of new cars significantly for those who cannot take advantage of C4C (with the SOLE possible exception of those trying to buy a used car... the market for those has decreased).

    And as you asked, yes, the donation counts as a decrease in my earned amount, not a credit; when we did it a few years back, though, it was enough to make a significant drop in our taxable income for the year, because it moved our tax bracket.
  • jfritschjfritsch Member Posts: 958
    Yes young space cadets the dealers/manufacturers have "worked a govt program" just like defence contractors, pharmaceuticals, and other contract players have for centuries.

    ---------------- From another forum, just replace "G6" in many places with your car.

    The G6 is based on the same platform as the Malibu and Saturn Aura. I believe the 08 $22000 (approx) G6, Malibu and Aura have a used trade in value (with avg miles ) of about 10k, 11k and 11k respectively.(kbb.com) This is what the $22000 09 will be worth in 12 months.

    Almost certainly great deals were to be had this summer on the G6 and malibu but the " Cash for clunkers" deal from your govt propped up the price $3000 or more, and the stock sold off.

    Yes virginia, the dealers raised the price by $3000 or so and people bought the cars for about the same price after the gov't money as they sold for a month earlier. Possibly even more given funny money lease and other finance deals. Straight from the gov't to the dealers and manufacturers. Worse, it appears most of the money went to foreign nameplates rather than the Domestic's, to which 80 BILLION of your tax money has also been sunk into.

    A G6 that could be had for under 14000 in June. couldn't be touched for under $17000 for a while, without a (highly specific) clunker. With the stock sold off and the clunker program re-funded till Nov., prepare to pay much more than $13000 for a lefftover 09 (and discontinued nameplate?) worth about $10,000 in a year.

    Just saw a lot full of "clunkers" with "not for sale" marked on their windshield. Looking at them they ranged from about $600-$6000 vehicles. Probably averaged about $1800. By the time you figure the dealers jacked the price up $2000-3000, and the clunker trade could have been sold for $1800 or so, it is a complete wash, with documentation, special destruction costs etc added on. The environmental teaser used to sell the program as usual, a joke.

    And 95% of new car (non clunker) buyers get to buy cars for higher prices until this artificial subsidy expires in november. Probably another $6 billion out of consumer's pockets on top of the $3 billion program cost put on your taxpayer credit card.

    Good luck
    --jjf

    CFC is a dealership taxpayer transfer payment program.

    Whether you've bought a car or not, taken advantage of this boondoggle or not, you can rest assured that your taxes are being used to ensure dealers can ask MSRP for their cars, sell a boatload of cars to people thinking they're getting a good deal, when in fact, they'd had been better of buying 3 months ago with no trade in (they could've sold that for gravy, 3 months ago).

    This program should be called TFD (Taxdollars For Dealerships). New car dealerships LOVE it.

    In the case of the Sonata, a new GLS with PEP, auto, could have been had from Fitz for $14,300 3 months ago, AND you could have sold your "clunker" and taken that income off that price.

    Now, Fitz has the same car at....ta da!!! $16,000+.

    Ain't government meddling grand?
  • flywin1flywin1 Member Posts: 4
    On August 9, 2009 I purchased a 2009 Sonata GLS PZEV from Sacramento Hyundai in Sacramento, CA. The vehicle was described by the salesman and sales manager as a NEW vehicle that was used as demo and has 5000+miles. However, I found out this is not correct. The vehicle has a USED titled. It is definitely not what we were told from the beginning of the deal. The dealer and the sales manager cheated us.

    First, the vehicle was deceptively marketed as new when it was not. The car was placed in the area where the new cars were and not where the used car section was. The car price tag on the window also appeared similar to those of other new vehicles.

    Second, the dealer misrepresented the vehicle history. The salesman and the sale manager told us the vehicle is new, not a used car. The salesman told us that the mileages ran from the road test by the manager. The manager even told us that it was his car. He test drove it. When we asked to see the user manual and the spare key, they told us the customer service had closed and we could come back to get it the following day. However, when we went back the next day, we had been told the vehicle was transferred from another dealership and the manual and keys were still there. They asked us to come back again. From that point, we realized the vehicle was from the other dealership and the sales manager hid the vehicle history.

    Third complaint is the auto dealer financing scam. When we went back to question the dealership about the used car title, the sales manager again stated that the car is new. That is why we can get the 60 months, 0% interest rate + $1500 bonus cash. That incentive is for new 2009 vehicles only. One more time, he tried to make us to believe the demo car is new.

    Forth complaint is that we lost the chance to purchase a two-day sales contract cancellation option because we thought the vehicle is new after the salesman and the sales manager told the vehicle is new numerous times. Therefore, we didn't ask to ge the cancellation option that we are entitled to under California's Buyer's Bill of Rights.

    We are really upset with the purchase of the car and feel that there were deceptive practices used. We would not have purchased this car if we knew it was used and would not have paid new car pricing for a used car, total $22,500. We definitely don't recommend this dealer.

    If you have any legal advice or comments, I really appreciate it.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think you do need to talk to a lawyer. This sounds like material misrepresentation on the part of the dealer. The trick will be to prove it, via documentation, and testimony from others. First, you might try taking your complaint to the owner of the dealership to see if he/she will do the right thing. If not, you might contact your local TV stations. Some of them love to run this kind of "consumer" report on their local news, and might even have one of their investigative reporters pay the dealership a visit. A long shot, but businesses hate negative publicity like that, and maybe even the threat of it would cause a change of heart by the dealership.

    The other really bad thing about this is, if in fact the car really is used, it has only the remainder of the 5-year, 60k mile bumper-to-bumper warranty left--and not the 10-year, 100k mile powertrain warranty (so powertrain is covered only under the remainder of the 5-year warranty).

    It wouldn't hurt to talk with Hyundai Customer Support about this also.
  • flywin1flywin1 Member Posts: 4
    Thanks so much for your advice. I did email the owner of the dealership couple times, but no response. Now I see the light in the dark.
  • mikemartinmikemartin Member Posts: 205
    The SAME EXACT SONATA AUTO GLS that was available for $14,200 before 'cash for clunkers' at Fitzmall is now $16,508.00.

    Thanks government! Thanks new car dealers!

    Ughhhh.
  • i360i360 Member Posts: 74
    Why would you buy a "new" car with so many miles on it already? Anyway if its used, as in titled and all once before, you can use that as proof as being deceived. You were purchasing a new car, and not a used one (obviously). That dealership that did that to you is complete scum. You should get some real legal advise for sure. You can also contact your Attorney General if needed!!!!!
  • james1982james1982 Member Posts: 73
    Many dealers will have a &#147;Manager&#146;s Special&#148; type car on the lot. This car is technically &#147;new&#148; because it has never been titled. However, usually these &#147;Manager&#146;s Special&#148; cars have a few thousand miles on them.

    Always AVOID the Manager&#146;s Special cars. Even with the steep discount they offer, you&#146;re taking a rather large gamble. Here&#146;s why:

    Though they claim that only &#147;executives&#148; have driven the car on official business, that is never the case. Everyone who works at the dealership has driven that car - the mechanic who went out to pick up lunch, the customer service lady who had to make a deposit at the bank, etc, etc. You can never be too sure if they drove the car with care. BUT, I ask you this: when you drive a rental car, do you treat it as well as your own car? No, you don&#146;t.

    A good friend of mine used to be in sales at a local Ford dealership, and he said that one of the running jokes would be who could sell the &#147;Manager&#146;s Special&#148; car. He said they ragged the car out (jack-rabbit starts, drove off curbs, let it idle for HOURS!, hard breaking, etc.). The car never had a proper break-in period, and, as such, had extreme wear and tear on it.

    Please, please, please, do yourself a HUGE favor, always avoid any kind of &#147;Manager&#146;s Special&#148; car. Even with the steep discount up front, you will lose that money in the long run with extra repairs. In fact, if a car on the lot has more than say 50 miles on it (a few test drives&#146; worth), don&#146;t buy it.
  • flywin1flywin1 Member Posts: 4
    We like the color, Cocoa Metallic. We though it is new as the sale manager kept telling us; and the car was placed in the area where the new cars were and not where the used car section was.

    Yes, I am looking for any possible ways I can afford in getting the legal help. Also, I am sharing the pain experience is to warn other vehicle shoppers. Don't believe what the sales say. An unregistered vehicles regularly used or operated as demonstrators in the sales work of a dealer or unregistered vehicles regularly used or operated by a manufacturer in the sales or distribution work of such manufacturer is defined as a "used vehicle" by CA law. (Wish I knew it before.)
  • flywin1flywin1 Member Posts: 4
    Hi james1982,
    if the demo car is techinically "new" because it has never been titled, then what do the dealer write on the purchasing contract? New or Used?
  • David EhrlichmanDavid Ehrlichman Member Posts: 47
    Just run a carfax on it.

    It will tell you when the car was originally titled, where and when it was "resold".
  • james1982james1982 Member Posts: 73
    flywin1:

    I'm sure some of the laws governing this somewhat-shady practice varies by state. To my knowledge, a car can always be considered "new" as long as it has never been titled. However, a dealer MUST always honestly and openly disclose all mileage.

    It completely sucks that this happened to you. The only advice I could offer is for you to contact your local Better Business Bureau. They probably won't be able to help you directly, but I'm sure they can provide some resources for you to consider. Contacting them would be a great first step.

    As for your question about demo cars: I talked to my friend again today about your post (my friend who I mentioned in my previous post who used to be a salesman at a local Ford dealership) and he said that, in Virginia, demos can be sold as "new" as long as there has not been any major damage or repairs on the car. "Major repairs" only include those where a claim was filed with the dealer's insurance company. If it was just a minor repair, the dealer probably had his own shop fix it, and no one would ever know anyway.

    I hope some of that information helps.

    Please keep posting and let us know what happens.
  • needacar123needacar123 Member Posts: 11
    I have been looking for quotes for a no frills automatic Sonata GLS 2009. No prefernece for color or any additional options. I tried couple of Northern California dealers and the price most have quoted is > 18k including all the fees. I don't have a trade-in, and don't qualify for any of these programs - no cash for clunkers/militray/recent college grad rebates.

    What is a fair price people on this forum have got for a basic Sonata? If i have to pay 18-19k I would look for Accord/Camry. Hyundai's are popular because of their price and offcourse other reasons.

    Any advice/PM will be greatly appreciated as I am in need of a new car desperatley.

    Thanks much
  • billwardbillward Member Posts: 154
    First thing: WAIT.

    Cash For Clunkers ends on Monday; after that, prices will fall again, as the propped up prices from the C4C can't be supported. You might lose some of your choices in color, etc., but for a no frills 2009 GLS I4 Auto, no PEP, you shouldn't pay more than $14500-$15000 pre TTL, at most (and probably a decent bit less). Since California is California, TTL is likely to be somewhat outrageous, but regardless, $18K itself for a bare GLS I4 Auto sans PEP is quite high. You should probably see substantially better pricing in about two weeks.
  • james1982james1982 Member Posts: 73
    Yeah, I have to agree with billward. The best thing to do in this situation is wait. If you can, wait a month. In a month's time, dealers will really be scrambling to get old inventory off the lot to make room for the 2010's.

    I can tell you that, in Virginia, I paid $14,500 OTD for a '09 GLS manual transmission back in April (pre-CFC). The $14,500 price included floor mats, mud guards, that silly Blu-Tooth (which I will never use), and iPod cable.

    You may not be able to snag that price in California (as the cost of living is higher), but I assure you: the longer you wait the more bargaining power you have!!!
  • needacar123needacar123 Member Posts: 11
    Thanks for the advice. I am new to this forum and don't know what is PEP/TTL. Also anyone has any feedback on what are the taxes and dealer fees one has to pay in California.

    Any advice is appreciated.

    Thanks
  • dovid2dovid2 Member Posts: 90
    Popular Equipment Package
    and Tax, Tag and Title.

    You might want to look the Sonata up on this website to see what is included in the PEP and decide whether or not you want it.
  • needacar123needacar123 Member Posts: 11
    Ok Thanks...I am not looking for any additional equipment other than what comes standard with the car.

    Any numbers on what folks had to pay for TTL in Calif? That should be standard for PEP/nonPEP.
  • billwardbillward Member Posts: 154
    As someone who has driven both PEP and non-PEP GLS cars... PEP makes the car feel much more luxurious, and is worth the money unless every single penny counts. While the woodgrain accents are nice looking, I wouldn't pay the PEP costs just for them (maybe a $50 premium)... but the steering wheel audio controls, the trip computer (MUST HAVE in all my cars from now on; the miles to empty has saved my wife twice from running out of gas, and the automatic MPG calculator is great to provide instant feedback to know that everything's ok with the car) and the driver's lumbar support are worth the extra few hundred dollars by themselves. PEP also includes the power adjustable seat (not just lumbar) and a few other things that just make the car feel... better. PEP normally adds ~$500 to the final price, if you negotiate aggressively. PEP2 is PEP with the power sunroof/moonroof; it's quite nice (we have one on our older 2003 GLS V6 Sonata, back when GLS was what SE is now), but didn't get it on our new 2009 GLS Sonata; there was NO chance we wouldn't get the PEP though after comparing the PEP and non-PEP cars. Yeah, I now have two Sonata GLSes, a 2003 V6 with the Sunroof and a 2009 I4 Auto w/PEP.

    As for the TTL in Cali, the first T (Taxes) is very much dependent on the price you negotiate to pay for the car; no one can tell you what that is in raw dollars until you have your final price; it's a direct percentage of the total purchase price of the car (give or take; some states count pre-rebates, most post-rebate, some include pre-tradein, most don't), and the rate varies by state, you can look it up for California online, if you need to, although remember that some cities and counties impose yet another tax, though it's typically pretty low, in addition to the base state tax. Tags and Title is straightforward, however; Tags cost is dependent on the plates you get, and is controlled by the California DMV; want specialized plates, pay more, etc. This is pretty much a constant for ALL cars in the state, unless they are in some special category, and in most states, it's not that much ($20-$50/year; the dealership will end up getting you one year, after that, you're on your own). Title is a one time charge that the states put on cars when they change; typically, it's something on the order of $100 or so in most states, but again, it's probably a fixed amount, and you can look it up at the California DMV's website.
  • dovid2dovid2 Member Posts: 90
    typically, it's something on the order of $100 or so in most states, but again, it's probably a fixed amount

    I don't know about CA, but here in GA 'Title' is a profit center for the dealer, costing $200-400, depending on the dealer, for what probably takes a clerk 10 minutes. Once you've paid for the tag, you still have an ad valorem tax on the car that is due by your birthday.
  • bowfin47bowfin47 Member Posts: 1
    On Sat. night (9-22-09) was surfing the internet, when I located a great deal on a Santa Fe Limited - 2008 Limited (loaded and super clean) with 9,267 mi. for $18,790 at King Hyundai - Deerfield Beach, Fl. At that time, I emailed King Hyundai a request for more info.

    At about 5 p.m. E.DT on Sun afternoon (9-23-09), a salesman from King Hyundai called my cell phone and after discussing the condition of this vehicle; that the actually mileage was less than 9,000; and with him agreeing to fax me the CarFax, so that I would have it in the morning (which didn't happen??), we made the deal.

    He was to send me the paperwork this morning (Monday) after his Monday morning sales meeting, and after receiving this paperwork, I was going to wire a substantial deposit to hold the vehicle. We had a verbal contract - A DEAL.

    O.K. Everybody's happy... Wrong!!!

    This morning (Monday &#150; 8-24-09) at a little after 10 a.m. - CDT, the salesman calls and says that the Santa Fe was SOLD last night!!!

    What!! Yesterday, he told me that they closed at 6 p.m. EDT. If he and I were on the phone off and on until about 5:50 p.m. EDT, then how could they have sold my Santa Fe?? He sheepishly said that another salesperson had sold the car while he was on the phone to me…

    I didn't believe a word of it. You see, when he called me on Sunday afternoon, I asked him for his best OTL (Off The Lot) price, and he started to say, "the asking price is $24... but I could let you have it for... let&#146;s see… 21.4.." That is when I interrupted him and said that 'ya' better check your web site".

    He did that, and I could hear him checking with someone else before he came back to me. At which time he said o.k. that the price on the web site was &#147;his best deal&#148;. So, before 6 pm EDT, the web price of $18,790 was the price to which we both agreed.

    In their Monday morning sales meeting King Hyundai sales managers must have realized that they could get more money for that vehicle, and they had a case of "seller&#146;s remorse". So, they pulled it...

    Actually, at 10:20 a.m. CDT, I checked the King Hyundai web site and this Limited (same photos and vin number) was still on their web site the $18,970 price???

    But by 10:50 a.m. CDT is this same &#147;SOLD VEHICLE&#148; was on their web site for $20,995!!!!! Yeah, it's the same mileage /photos / vin number!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just at a $2,225 higher price!!!

    So, a few minutes later, I had a buddy call King Hyundai and ask their internet sales manager, Theresa Race, about the Santa Fe Limited listed on the their web site at $20.995, and she told him that &#147;there had been a lot of interest in this vehicle, but it had been listed on the internet at the wrong price&#148;… and that &#147;$20,995 was the ACTUAL price&#148;… She told him he could come by and test- drive it today! Pretty good for a SOLD VEHICLE!!!!

    I then called King Hyundai, looking to speak to the internet sales manager, but the call was answered by the same salesman, ALEX, who made the deal with me. He was surprised to hear my voice… and he acted shocked that the Limited was not sold. He claimed no knowledge of this and asked that I not &#147;kill the messenger&#148; that he was just the lowly salesman. He then showed his true colors when he stated that as I had not signed any paperwork, that we &#147;didn&#146;t really have a deal anyway&#148;… I explained the concept of a verbal contact... to no avail... But I didn&#146;t get put through to anyone higher in the King Hyundai organization either…

    So, I then called Hyundai Motors of America in CA. Where a nice lady told me that she was starting a file number on my complaint (which she gave me), but that if any corrective action was taken by Hyundai America, those actions would be &#147;internal actions&#148; and that Hyundai Motors of America would not inform me of those actions… if any. So, that means that I was basically told that I would not receive any help from Hyundai of Motors of America...

    I then place two calls to Mr. Craig King, whom I was told was the owner of King Hyundai, with no return calls …

    So, as I see it: King Hyundai falsely advertised their vehicle, made and broke a verbal contact with me, lied to me about the selling "my vehicle" (i.e. the deal), and then told me that it never was a deal! Yeah and don&#146;t forget that the salesman DID CHECK THE PRICE THAT THEY SET BEFORE AGREEING TO SELL ME THIS SANTA FE LIMITED.

    So, take it my experience with King Hyundai in Deerfield Beach, FL for what it's worth...

    Kyle
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