"Non-Collectible" Old Cars

andre1969 · December 2001

...is that they kept their hardtop body styles around longer than the domestics did. In fact, as recently as '83, I think you could get a Mazda 626, Datsun 200SX, Toyota Corolla, or Plymouth Sapporo/Dodge Challenger (Mistubishi) hardtop coupe with genuine roll-down rear windows.

Did the Japanese ever make a hardtop sedan? I'd be inclined to guess no, because it would be kind of hard to make a 4-door hardtop on a short wheelbase. The smallest American 4-door hardtop I can think of was the later-60's Corvair, but its 108" wheelbase would've been massive by Japanese standards back then!

Mr_Shiftright · December 2001

The late 60s Corvair hardtop is about the prettiest 4-door hardtop you will ever see.

I don't think the Japanese ever made a 4-door hardtop for export. I'm sure that at home they tried one of everything.

70s Japanese styling has been referred to on these boards as "Atomic Cockroach", which is pretty good.

ab348 · December 2001

I first saw that reference in print in either C&D or R&T (more likely the former) in the mid-70s. Some writer coined it to describe the Datsun B-210 (remember that?). I remember my brother bringing one home for a test drive the first month they were out -- a butterscotch color fastback. No sale. They sold a lot of them here, and most succumbed to terminal rust within 5 years.

speedshift · December 2001

I kind of think the styling weirdness may have been an asset. It announced that Japanese cars weren't the usual half-hearted Detroit or unreliable European efforts. Japanese cars were obviously different and that can be good when a big part of the market is turning away from the status quo.

Maybe kind of like Rambler in the early '60s when at one point they managed to get to number 3 with some very funky styling--they were the sensible alternative to the big flashy Detroit iron.

I'm not sure the Atomic Cockroach school of styling is completely gone. It's been years since the Sentra was a clean if boxy design (kind of like the 510) and the current Maxima looks pretty dorky from certain angles IMHO. The new Altima looks better than the one it replaced but that's not saying much--great taillights but everything else about the car is still (deliberately?) goofy and uninspired.

andre1969 · December 2001

...I wonder if somehow, America is responsible for that? I have a car book that said the '61 Plymouth was so hideous that it served as the inspiration for a whole generation of bad Japanese sci-fi movies!

speedshift · December 2001

I had a '61 Dodge Polara two door hardtop and I kinda liked it. A real spaceship. 383-4v, Torqueflite, even found the correct dual point distributor for the D-500 engine. Plastic seatcovers over almost mint red vinyl and cloth (with gold thread) upholstery, just a little sun damage. You don't find upholstery like that in a Bimmer ;-). When I was moving a couple of cars from a storage yard I let a friend drive it and it was rather handsome in motion.

But yes the '61 Plymouth was a real piece of work. I occasionally drive past a green four door sedan that I imagine small planes use as a navigation landmark.

andre1969 · December 2001

...weren't too bad that year, although the reverse-slant tailfins were kinda weird. And those taillights on 'em kind of make me think of a new Maxima, or Neon. I liked the big '60 Dodge Matador/Polara, with its tailfins that ended short of the back of the car. The Darts that year had kind of a funky aluminum grille that stuck out, and tailfins that went all the way to the back of the car. I still wonder sometimes, if Chrysler made its Plymouths extra-ugly on purpose in '60-61 to force people to buy a nicer looking Dodge!

speedshift · December 2001

Yes I remember the '60 now. Also I'm looking at it in The American Car Spotters Guide 1940-1965. I think the Polara's longer wheelbase really helped.

Just as a sidenote, I think early '60s Mopars are the only cars I'd have look up to remember. Every other line-up I could describe in minute detail. That says a lot for where Chrysler was in the early '60s. It was about that time that Rambler beat them for the number 3 slot.

By the way I think it's great that someone would spend that much time (and a few bucks) on an old Celica. The torch has passed.

ghulet · December 2001

These were among the first 'car books' I was given as a teenager (mid-80s). They're by no means 'exhaustive' guides, but they furthered my self-education about old cars by leaps and bounds. They've taught me a great deal of the nonsense I've shared with all of you.....make the call on that, I guess. Great books (especially the 66-80 edition, just cuz it was more my age). I asked for Christmas and receied many more 'car books' after that.....good times.

Speedshift, I agree with you re 60s Mopars; for whatever reason(s), I have great memory regarding GM and Ford products of the 60s, but not Mopars.....I dunno why.

andre1969 · December 2001

What was the first year that Rambler hit the #3 spot, anyway? I'm pretty sure Plymouth was still #3 in 1959, but barely, as Rambler was catching up fast on the strength of its compacts, not to mention a resurgent Chevrolt and Ford.

Maybe it was 1960? Dodge made a big comeback that year, mainly at Plymouth's expense, and that might've been enough to let Rambler slip on past. I have a book that list sales figures, but never bothered to add it up, but I have a feeling that the full-size Dart lineup actually outsold the full-size Plymouth lineup that year. The only reason Plymouth still beat Dodge was probably because of the Valiant.

I think Pontiac took #3 around 1962-63, as Rambler started a long decline and never really came back.

My mom had a '59 Rambler wagon when she was a teen. Her first car was a gray '57 Plymouth (leave it to my mother to get a '50's car in a bland color!), but she didnt' like it because it seemed too big for her. So she sold it and got the Rambler, a gaudy pink-and-black 2-tone job. I remember her telling me that one of the rear wheels fell off of it, and I think that was the point she decided to get a new car...a '66 Catalina convertible. Only thing I can't figure, is that if the Plymouth felt too big for her, how did she handle the Catalina? I'm sure the Catalina handled a lot better, though, which probably offset that additional length.

Another thing I just thought of that's interesting... her car losing a rear wheel, but doing no real damage. I have a feeling that if a wheel fell off of a modern car while you were driving, the resulting impact with the road surface would do some pretty serious damage. Now I don't know what exactly separated in her car to make that wheel fall off...maybe it was just the lug nuts, or maybe the whole axle separated or something? Whatever it was though, I think the expense ended up being fairly minor.

speedshift · December 2001

Says here Rambler almost beat Plymouth for #3 in 1960, and did in 1961. However, Rambler's success was due to its compacts and by '62 everyone else was cranking out trainloads of Falcons, Novas etc. so by 1967 Rambler was number 12. Probably the same thing happened with the Studebaker Lark, a compact they cobbled together for '59 that bought Stude a few years until the big three jumped into that market.

Pontiac took over #3 in 1962 when (one can surmise) the market was leaving economy for performance--Pontiac sold many more full-sizers than compacts. In fact '62 was the first year for the Grand Prix, a big sales success that may have put them over the top.

I think it's the full-size Mopars that are so forgettable. First, they didn't sell that many and second, styling in the early '60s swerved from No Holds Barred Exner to Official Repudiation of Exner. There really wasn't a steadily evolving styling theme, no consistent brand identity that made you say, "Yup that's a Dodge". I couldn't begin to tell you what a '62 Dodge looks like and that's absolutely amazing.

Sounds like your mother's Rambler's axle shaft broke, probably from all the wheelies she was pulling ;-).

a_l_hubcaps · December 2001

Someone mentioned Datsun B210s above...I like those weird looking things. I still have a few of the odd "turtle shell" B210 wheelcovers in stock (I'm in the used hubcap business, and I have just about everything back to 1970). I wonder if there are any B210s left to put them on?

The 1977 Celica project is coming along well. Today I finished the cooling system overhaul, replacing the radiator, cap, hoses, transmission lines, clamps, thermostat, and coolant all with new parts. Everything went together well and it doesn't seem to have sprung any leaks. I also replaced two rubber fuel lines after one burst a few days ago, spraying gasoline all over the engine. Fortunately, no fire. Next up is a transmission service and brake overhaul. After those are done, it should be mechanically sound and reliable. Then it's just more body work (RUST!) and replacement of various cosmetic trim parts. Hopefully all will go well...
-Andrew L

speedshift · December 2001

I have about 20 hubcaps from the '60s, not mint but certainly good enough to put on a driver. Pontiac, Cougar, Chevy etc. What's the best way to get rid of them? About how much are they worth wholesale?

a_l_hubcaps · December 2001

Speedshift-

My hubcap business is no longer in full swing since I'm now a college student. I made most of my sales online while I was in high school, but since I can't bring all 4,000 hubcaps to college with me, I'm limited to selling on eBay, or locally when I'm home. So anyway, I would buy yours myself, but I already have lots of hubcaps and not enough time to sell them. I recommend that you clean them up and list them on eBay. If you need any help identifying caps for listing purposes, send pics to A_L_Hubcaps@yahoo.com and I'll do my best.

-Andrew L

speedshift · December 2001

Thanks for the quick response and the offer. I think I'll just wholesale them locally. If they're selling for about $20 retail I think I'll be lucky to get $5 but at least I'll free up garage space.

a_l_hubcaps · December 2001

speedshift-

The value of classic ('50s, '60s, '70s) caps varies a lot depending on what vehicles they're for. In most cases, wholesaling them for $5 each is reasonable. But if you have anything with a "spinner" center on it, or anything Mustang, Corvette, Chevy SS, or any five-spoke "mag type" covers, they could be worth quite a bit, so it might be a good idea to do a little research before you let them go cheap. Good luck.

-Andrew L

Mr_Shiftright · December 2001

Hey, somebody should start a "mystery hubcap" topic! Post a photo and let us guess!

speedshift · December 2001

Yes, and the first person to guess correctly has to buy the hubcap. My photos will be up in a few days ;-).

speedshift · December 2001

Andrew, you got me nervous so I went out and checked my stash.

2 1958 Pontiac full wheelcovers
2 1955 Buick " "
3 1964 Wildcat standard
1 1965 Riviera wire spinner (some wires damaged)
3 1963 Olds spinners
1 1964 SS spinner (some damage)
4 1966 Wildcat standard
3 1965 Riviera standard

Plus one 1960 Corvair soupbowl I'll keep because it was about the only thing left from my first car after I totaled it.

Not to mention four '68 Cougar ultra-rare spinners I sold to a dealer about a year ago for $5 each. Not much about Cougars is hot so I can't imagine they were either, although he did seem a little too happy.

a_l_hubcaps · December 2001

Speedshift-

Too bad the Riviera spinner cap is damaged; that would be a good one if it were mint. The only other thing that caught my eye are the 1963 Oldsmobile spinners. I'm not sure which style that is (I'm not too great with caps before 1970), but if they're in nice shape, it might be worth ebaying them to see if they bring more money then you expected. It seems like anything with a spinner brings big money on ebay. I got about $25 for a fairly beat-up 1966 Mustang spinner cap awhile ago. Other than that, I would go ahead and sell them for $5 each if you have a buyer.

Shiftright-

I'd be glad to participate in a hubcap contest, but I'm not so good with the ones before 1970, and especially before 1960. But I'd do my best, and without sneaking a peek at the interchange book :-)

-Andrew L

chevytruck_fan · December 2001

I was looking through my 73-87 chevy truck catalog(LMC Truck), they want 50$ per hubcap! Atleast mine are in really awesome condition, probably could use some chrome polish though.

Everyone always gives me a hard time for having hubcaps, but I think original hubcaps look really nice.

speedshift · December 2001

Yeah, the mag and styled steel wheel thing has been done to death ;-). I think soupbowl hubcaps look really good on a truck.

Andrew, I think I'm going to try peddling my hubcaps on eBay. Sounds like you had good luck.

chevytruck_fan · December 2001

I don't know why I think they look so great, they have a quite dignity about them, the chrome bow-tie hubcaps are about the best hubcaps I've seen on trucks, of course I'm partial

a_l_hubcaps · December 2001

Speedshift-
I've found that the trick to getting lots of bids on eBay hubcaps (and all eBay items, for that matter) is to include photos, give detailed descriptions, and have a reasonable starting price ($5 is probably good for a decent hubcap). But you never know what will sell...I've had some caps sell much higher than I expected, and others I can't get rid of at any price. Good luck!

Chevytruck-
Do you have the large aluminum dog-dish caps on your Chevy? Those are nice looking if you keep them clean, but they do not stay on well at all. I have about 20-25 of them in stock, all of which I found on the road. In general, I too prefer original wheels/hubcaps over aftermarket wheels. I especially dislike alloy wheels on passenger cars, because they always come with low-profile tires that allow them to get damaged easily. My Pontiac still has the original 15" steel wheels with stainless full wheelcovers and whitewalls. It looks old-fashioned, but so does the whole car. I would never consider changing them. I can attest to the durability of big tires and steel wheels, because I've hit all kinds of potholes, driven over curbs, etc. in my efforts to retrieve hubcaps from busy NJ highways, and I have never had a tire or wheel failure. On the other hand, I've seen many people stranded on the highway with 2 flats and 2 cracked alloy wheels due to slamming a deep pothole. I would rather lose a hubcap than destroy a tire and wheel any day :-)

-Andrew L

ndance · December 2001

and since hardly anyone owns real 'mags' (although I did have a set of magnesium Minilites on a Boss Mustang at one time).

I'm really pro-steel wheel. I've had quite a few sets made up to a specified width/offset. I don't think they are heavier (if anything lighter) than most aluminum wheels. Tire machines are easier on them. They bend in accidents rather than breaking. The quality level (balance, out of round) can be good or bad on both types, so that's a wash. The one advantage I can think of on most aluminum wheels is the ability to have goofy shapes cast up.

It wouldn't suprise me if the best aluminum wheels are better than the best steel wheels, but it would bug the heck out of me to pay $750 a corner.

speedshift · December 2001

A friend of mine showed me how he could scrape material off a real magnesium wheel and light the scrapings on fire. This sounds dumb and I imagine it is.

chevytruck_fan · December 2001

They are about two inches deep.

Well I have hit some potholes where I was thanking god my a-arms didn't bend or snap, of course at 70 my trucks starts getting a interesting feel to it, but I don't think that is the wheels think it just isn't designed for freeway, plus all the busings have 340,000+ on them so eventually I'm going to put some energy suspension bushings on them.

andre1969 · January 2002

One old car I've always had a fondness for, even though they were flops in the marketplace, and only available for a few years, was the Mopar R-body. They were only built from 1979-81, and were Chrysler's last gasp at the true, full-size market.

Anyway, if you're interested, check out http://briefcase.yahoo.com/andre_1969/ . I posted a few pics there of a '79 New Yorker 5th Avenue that I recently bought. There's also a pic of my '57 DeSoto in there, if anybody's interested. Eventually, I'm gonna try to get the whole fleet online...

As for the R-bodies, they were a hasty response to GM's wildly successful downsized B- and C-bodies of 1977. Ford was also a few years late to that game, as they didn't downsize their Crown Vics and Grand Marquis models until 1979, and the Lincolns until 1980! To make the R-body, Chrysler mainly just took their intermediate B-body (the Furys, Monacos, Coronets, etc that we so commonly saw crunched up on the "A-Team" or the "Dukes of Hazzard"), and heavily reworked it. Mechanically they were the same...engines, suspensions, rear-ends, etc, but they were given a much more creased, angular look. They were a lot lighter than the cars they replaced, but the stylists gave them a heavy, massive look, which could be part of the reason they didn't sell too well.

They were available as the Plymouth Gran Fury, Dodge St. Regis, Chrysler Newport, and Chrysler New Yorker. The 5th Avenue was a trim package that added about $1500 to the base price of the NY'er, which was already around $10,000 in 1979. I'm not sure exactly what the 5th Ave package comprised though. Probably just different leather and trim variations. The Newport, St. Regis, and Gran Fury were very popular with police departments and taxi fleets, but just never caught on with the general public. The New Yorker sold fairly well its first year, 1979, with about 55,000 units moved. But with 1980 it was downhill fast...something like 13,000 units, and even less for '81.

Anyway, for the most part, they're just big old cars that nobody wants, but I have a perverse fascination with 'em ;-)

speedshift · January 2002

The DeSoto gets two thumbs up.

The New Yorker, well...I used to buy cars like that but they were usually 10-15 years older. They're why I'll be able to retire when I'm 85.

jsylvester · January 2002

Like the DeSoto as well. One nice thing about the R-bodies is you can pick up a really nice luxury car for pocket change.

I also see where the K-car's got their dashboard design.

ab348 · January 2002

You might be the only remaining fan of the R-body.

At the time I actually liked these cars. I thought the styling was fairly contemporary and certainly better than the new downsized Ford of that same year. But they seemed to have all sorts of quality woes. I remembered Consumer Reports testing one and finding an incredible number of things wrong with it, including a snapped front torsion bar. You certainly don't see many of them today, so I think they were fairly quickly taken out of service. The ones you do see certainly never seem as nice as yours.

My brother had a '79 New Yorker for a short time as a company car. I really liked the dash in particular. It did seem to me to feel like an intermediate rather than a fullsizer though. I think maybe that, along with the rumors of Chrysler's impending demise at the time, probably hurt sales more than anything. I recall my boss in 1980 announcing that she was going to buy a new Cordoba because she thought it important that Chrysler survive. We all looked at her like she was nuts (well, maybe she was, but...). She ended up buying a nice one, sort of a silver green with a matching half-vinyl roof. I thought the styling of those was great.

andre1969 · January 2002

I went rooting around through all my old photos last nite, and ended up finding pictures of just about every car I've ever owned, except for my '80 Malibu, which was my first. I'll get the Catalina up there eventually! I want to get some better pics of the NY'er up there, too. The ones I have posted now are the ones I got from E-bay, when I saw this car for sale online.

But yeah, the NYer was pretty cheap. I ended up paying $900 for it. And about $250 to get it through Maryland inspection. I bought it from a dealership in West VA, who said he'd put it through inspection if I was tagging it in PA or West VA, so I guess Maryland is pickier about inspections. I just got the emissions test notice in the mail too, so that's my next hurdle. I guess that's one problem with playing around with old cars that aren't old enough!

The day after I bought it though, I saw a '79 St. Regis on the street around the corner, for sale for $500 or best offer. I'd been seeing this car around the area for years, and knew where the owner lived (you learn a lot delivering pizzas), and had always been tempted to make them an offer on it. So I guess it's only natural that it goes up for sale the day after I bring an R-body home! It was a dark emerald green with a green cloth interior, and had recently been repainted. I've always been attracted to greens (well, the non-pondscum/puke varieties ;-) and thought it was a neat looking car, with its raked-back checkerboard grille and plastic-covered headlights. It was a more basic model though...no power stuff, no 8-track, 318-2bbl, etc.

Oh well, I guess I can't take in every stray I find ;-)

andre1969 · January 2002

...if anybody wants to see. http://briefcase.yahoo.com/andre_1969. Not the best pic in the world, but it'll give ya an idea. I also found a pic of the DeSoto the day I brought it home, with the elderly couple I bought it from, and me, standing by it. I'll scan it eventually. It's really amazing to think that sweet little old lady could actually handle that beast of a car!

im_brentwood · January 2002

Finally! =D

I have been waiting to see your fleet for years!

Bill

dweezil · January 2002

and congratulations. Beautiful vehicles. I've got your site bookmarked. I've seen a photo of your DeS, but not the Newport. EXCELLENT. Makes me wish my parents had let me buy that 78 Plymouth Fury [aka Satellite] 4 door from them. I loved that thing.Had to have those leaf spring assists from JC Whitney put on the back because it bottomed so badly even with new shocks.
Wish I had pix of the 3 Plymouths :parent's Fury, my 63 Valiant Signet and my little bro's Saporro [78/79?]. Seen one of those lately???

jrosasmc · January 2002

Any Volvos from the 70s (except the 1800ES).

avalanche325 · February 2002

I remember, at the time, they were head turners. Laugh now, but as a teenager working in a gas station, I remember people really looking at them.

There was one I specifically remember. I was two tone. Dark blue on the sides with gray hood/roof/trunk. At the time it was an awsome looking car.

ghulet · February 2002

I do remember the Charger, after it changed in '76 (correct me if I'm wrong) to look a lot like the Cordoba. IIRC, this car frequently had the sport/disco two tone treatments (usually silver body with black or blue block on the sides), with the 'finned' alloys. That was kind of a hot looking car at the time. I think I like the '76s better than the '73-75s (remember the slootted rear window treatment on the 'landau' roof?)

speedshift · February 2002

The '71-up Chargers looked really awkward. Way too much front overhang, just looked too big for the wheelbase. The Satellite based on the same shell looked pretty good if you like the "fuselage" styling Chrysler was into then. A '71 1/2 or '72 340 Road Runner would be a nice well-balanced driver.

jrosasmc · February 2002

Anybody remember the '75-'78 Charger SE and its subsequent replacements, the '78-'79 Magnum XE and the '80-'83 Mirada? The lowest point in Chrysler quality.

ghulet · February 2002

andre1969 · February 2002

...one of those Cordoba "300" models from '79. Y'know, the ones with the crosshair grille and police-spec 360, done up in all white? I think the Cordoba and its ilk draws so much flak just because they're sooo stereotypically '70's! I think they're actually pretty attractive though. I think my favorite of those styles is the '78-79 Magnum XE. I like the '80-83 Mirada too. Slick looking cars, but unfortunately, most of them didn't have anything to back it up. You could get a 180 or so hp 360 as an option in 1980, but most of 'em just had 318's, which were down to 120 hp for '80 and 130 for '81-83. And even though they were "downsized", that was still a lot of car to move around, and they only lost a few inches off the old '75-79 models. Even though they competed with cars like the Monte Carlo and T-bird, they were almost as long as a Caprice or Crown Vic of the time!

When the Cordoba first came out for '75, it was referred to as a cross between a Monte Carlo and a Jag. That first year, it also outsold every single personal-luxury coupe on the market, except for the Monte.

mminerbi · February 2002

I thought the first model year Cordoba, the '75, was exceptionally elegant, and that subsequent models didn't improve on the original's styling. On the basis of their styling, I would categorize Cordobas as collectibles.

From a mechanical standpoint, was it the '75 that had the problematic "lean burn" engine?

andre1969 · February 2002

...yeah, they had it by '75. It first came out for '74, on the 400 and 440 V-8's, but eventually found its way down through all the V-8's, and the Slant Six. I've had two cars with Lean Burn...a '79 Newport with a 318 2-bbl and a '79 New Yorker with a 360 2bbl that I recently bought. As far as I can tell, it was still working properly on both cars. My Newport had about 230,000 miles on it when I bought it, and it passed the emissions test by a wide margin. My New Yorker failed the first time around, partly because I goofed it up when I tuned it up. I changed the spark plugs, cap/rotor, a few filters, etc, the weekend before taking it in, but somehow managed to close the gap entirely on two spark plugs. So needless to say, it wasn't running too well when I took it through the test ;-)

Both cars would get crappy mileage around town, but both would also break into the lower 20's on the highway, probably partly because off tall gearing. 2.41:1, I think. I think Lean Burn was designed to start running rich when it crapped out, so it wouldn't burn up your valves. Probably wasn't foolproof though! From what I've heard in my Mopar clubs, it's also not hard to convert back to a regular, early '70's style electronic ignition.

thedarkwolf · February 2002

/6 :O hehe auto and with 190k miles on it it was way under powered but it ran great. I

andre1969 · February 2002

...was in the junkyard, and saw an '81 Cordoba over in the corner, that had just come in. This is where they keep their cars before they dismantle them and put 'em out in the yard. About 5 years ago, I saw a '79 Newport over in that corner that was destined to become mine, but thankfully history didn't repeat itself here ;-) I sat behind the wheel of it, just to see how these old beasts felt. It was about as nice as an original-looking 20 year old car can look. Cloth seats and carpet still in good shape. Even the fake wood plastic trim that ran along the top edges of the doors was good. Usually these pieces crack right where the lock button is.

It was a nice looking car, with its fake-hardtop look (no B-pillar, but those back windows were stationary). I also like the dash display on them. It looks like they took the dash out of an R-body and trimmed it a few inches to make it fit. About the only difference though, is the R-body has an oil pressure gauge, while the J-body (Cordoba/Mirada) only have an idiot light in that spot. I'd say it felt about as roomy as a Monte Carlo or T-bird of the time, although it was definitely wider inside than either of those, and the T-bird suffered from that huge Fox-platform driveline hump. But then, being as roomy as a Monte on the inside, but as big as a Caprice on the outside, probably isn't a very good advertising feature ;-)

speedshift · February 2002

I've always had a thing for these cars. Back in the early '60s my father had one, black with light wood trim. It's a lousy photo but you'll get the idea. Supposedly the engine in my father's had been swapped for a larger English Ford engine. It would peg the 80 mph speedo without blowing up, very un-English Ford like, so there may have been some truth to it.

About fifteen years ago I ran across a guy who was trying to coax a VW engine into one. I asked him what he was thinking and he gave me this "because it was there" answer. Frightening that someone would butcher a car so casually.

http://www.stationwagon.com/gallery/1960_Ford_Escort.html

Mr_Shiftright · February 2002

These are are often used to make street rods, since they are cheap to buy and different. I see no reason why cars like this should't be "re-created" into something interesting. Like what they do with Henry Js or old Model A Fords. They really aren't historically interesting enough or rare enough to be preserved in their original state. Of course, I would hope that the customization would be well-crafted.

speedshift · February 2002

Yeah, but a VW engine? Where did that brainstorm come from? What's the point? Even in customization there has to be a point, some kind of worthwhile goal.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2002

Well, you can't make a Ford Escort any worse. These cars will only be junked, so as a custom it will be preserved in some form.

"Non-Collectible" Old Cars

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