What Car is Right For Me? Help Me Choose!

markcincinnati · April 2004

. . .of a new Audi (A4 or S4, auto or stick):

Transmission: sourced and manufactured in Japan.

I don't know if this will effect reliability one way or another. . .

. . .just to note that we are moving more and more global.

maxhonda99 · April 2004

merc1,

".....the body and interior of most Japanese cars don't hold up."

Gotta disagree. I've seen a ES250 and ES300 at about 200K miles and a LS400 at about 250K miles and body and interior were in excellent shape. I think today with the proliferation of leasing alot of cars are taken good care of.

lexusguy · April 2004

I'm going to have to disagree as well. If people dont take care of their cars, then they are going to fall apart, plain and simple. A Mercedes owner who never cleans or treats the leather, never polishes or waxes the car, and never does any kind of preventative maintanence, the car is gonna fall to pieces, German or not. The difference between Germany and Japan is that with a German car, once you get past the 150K point, just keeping the engine running means literally pouring money into the car, and constant trips to the shop. Japanese cars arent like that. My own '96 LS400 had 156K miles on it when I traded, I went to the dealer for regular scheduled maintanence and generally took very good care of the car, not a single problem. I've also had a chance to talk to the techs at my Lexus dealer on occasion, and they said that they get LS400s and ES250s with 300K+ all the time. A friend of mine had a Mercedes SL from the mid '80s, it was literally a nightmare, he dumped it after less than a year.

Boomsama, you have to remember that Mercedes has been selling cars in North America since the '50s, and the company is over 100 years old. Lexus, Acura, and Infinti are only about 15 years old, and the entire Japanese auto industry has only been selling cars globally for about 35 years. In the '30s, Toyota was making textiles.

merc1 · April 2004

Well Lexuses do hold up better than other Japanese cars and I've seen this first hand. But the way Mercedes used to make their cars they had no equal in longevity. A Mercedes could be driven to hell and back. Cars like the W126 S-Class (1981-1991), W124 E-Class (1986-1995) and the R129 SL (1990-2002) were built to last. Now I know these newer ones are not of the same ilk (for many reasons), but still. I see MY 2000 S-Classes in just as good a shape as LS400s of the same time frame. Particularly in the area of the driver's seat leather (you know that industrial grade leather MB uses does great here, but felt like..well cheap), and paint and body integrity.

"The difference between Germany and Japan is that with a German car, once you get past the 150K point, just keeping the engine running means literally pouring money into the car, and constant trips to the shop. Japanese cars aren't like that."

I disagree with this to the point of it being somewhat exaggerated. Japanese cars need belts, hoses and everything any car would need to keep the engine running with that many miles. The difference is that most Japanese car owners will usually call this "maintenance" because Japanese cars will run in whatever condition whereas a European car will usually give some type of warning that something is in need of attention, and if ignored a breakdown will happen..hence it being called a problem at that point. I've seen this happen so many times, especially with Mercedes, BMW, and particularly with Volvos. Saabs just tend to "quit" first.

M

ceric · April 2004

My friend's 1995 LS400 had a 60K "regular" maintenance and was changed $2000+. A number of things were replaced according to him. Is that normal for Lexus? Another friend of mine with 2003 RX300. He was changed $187 for "first oil change". To be fair, the tires were rotated plus N-points of "top-off inspection". Is that typical for Lexus?

lexusguy · April 2004

Depends on the dealer, and exactly what was done to the car. Merc1 is right, things made of ruber, gaskets, seals, etc, will fail, regardless of what country the car came from. At 100K, my LS needed a new oil seal $900, and new rear shocks $500. Properly maintained, a Lexus will last for an extremely long time, but that proper maintainence does cost money. It's not a Corolla. As with any car you will pay more at the dealer, but I like the general peace of mind that they know exactly what they're doing, and a local shop will not come to the house and get my car, and drop off a loaner like Lexus does.

merc1 · April 2004

"Properly maintained, a Lexus will last for an extremely long time, but that proper maintainence does cost money."

Exactly my point about a Mercedes, but you will pay more to keep that Mercedes up, advantage Lexus.

M

diesel11 · April 2004

Interesting discussion. I own a Mercedes and a Lexus. The Mercedes is the ML350 and it is a great vehicle for our family. We love it.
The Lexus GS300 is mine and I love it big time. It has lived up to everything I hoped it would.

There are definitely differenes between the two. The leather, safety equipment and even the paint are superior in the Mercedes. we have an inspiration edition with the silver stitched perforated leather and it just exudes quality.

My Lexus seems to get more stone chips on the pant and the leather is cheaper feeling. However, the overall quality and feel are much better. Far fewer rattles and quirks. I'm excited to get into my Lexus each morning.

Bottom line is that there is no winner in every category, But having researched almost every near-luxury and luxury car available, The GS was my clear quality winner. (see JD Power surveys)

Longevity has a lot to do with how you drive and service and maintain as well as brand.

Just my thoughts
Fred

ceric · April 2004

Exactly my point, lexusguy. I was trying to manifest the point that Lexus is not "bullet-proof" as people might get the impression from your prior postings. Proper maintenance is the key as you said. BMW and other German cars just tend to have things that should not fail, but do. No one doubts that Lexus has higher reliability, quieter interior, etc. Just like what 'diesel11' said, there is no winner in all categories. German cars have their advantages, not just the emblems.

lexusguy · April 2004

Interesting. My wife and I considered the ML320, but being a body-on-frame, we found the ride a bit too truckish for our tastes. Also, I'm very technically inclined, and it took me about five minutes to figure out how to change the radio station on the "Command" system. Apparently you hit the "9" key, and then type in the freq, or something to that effect if memory serves. Since it was going to be for my wife, there was no way she was ever going to figure it out, she's not a manual reader. Also at that time, Mercedes was still using CD based NAV systems, and that was pretty much the deal breaker right there.

I do agree that German cars have their strengths, the biggest one being their residual value, which, for at least M-B and BMW, are some of the industry's highest. It is nice to know that if you buy a new CLK500, 3 years down the line the car will still be worth like 80% of its new tag, which makes leasing a very attractive idea. I would actually consider a CLK500 for my new drop top to replace my XKR if I didnt dislike Command so much. They also clean up on the fun to drive factor. The M3 SMG is an absolute blast.

boomsama · April 2004

anyone know what type of leather the 05 GS is getting?

what do you guys think of the new 05 GS anyway?

lexusguy · April 2004

I'm afraid I don't know the type off hand. It might be on the official site, or I'm sure a dealer could answer that question. Personally, I really like the new GS, I think its a more agressive looking car than the RL, and if I was going to buy in that segment, my choice would be between the GS and M45, and of those two cars, I would most likely end up with a GS. Infinti's NAV systems arent so great, and I'm still not entirely sure how much of the concept's hq materials will actually survive intro production. Nissan has been especiall stingy with its interior materials lately, I'm hoping that the new M will reverse that trend, but recent introductions like the QX56 havent.

boomsama · April 2004

well down here in aus, we dont have infiniti so yeah

I bought a Camry a few weeks ago, the seats are a bit short, and the leather feels very cheap compared to the one in my wife's volvo.

I'm hoping that the GS would have some higher quality leather, and also some more supportive seats than the camry i have.

lexusguy · April 2004

Lexus interior quality is MUCH higher than Toyota, which is already pretty much at the top of the mainstream segment. Take a look at the ES330, its essentially a Camry XLE V6 under there, but the interior is better than anything you can get for under $50,000. Lexus cars get better seats (though dont expect huge side bolsters) Higher quality leather, real wood trim, and the best fit and finish in the entire auto industry. Lexus panel gaps are so tight you couldnt squeeze in a business card if you tried. Everything that isnt leather is extremely high quality soft touch vinyls and plastics.

diesel11 · April 2004

First of all, bias plays a big role in all discussions, especially this kind of stuff.
My Bias is very pro Lexus...just so you know.

The quality of my Lexus is in the engine and the electronics. Big time! I don't mind my Lexus leather, actually I like it, it's just not as good as my ML350. But this is the leather in the ML55amg (inspiration edition).

The leather they used to use in Mercedes and BMW was much better IMO. Most people should realize that even Lexus and Mercedes use leather inserts...that is your seats aren't 100% leather. On the big time cars like SL600, 7-series and S600 you get 100% leather, but you all know the price of these babies lol.

I like JD Power...does the quality of the vehicle meet your expectations. That is, are your expectations realistic. Maybe Lexus owners have more realistic expectations. Just a theory.

Fred

merc1 · April 2004

Actually the E500, SL, S, and CL Classes use leather to cover the entire seat.

The ML, E320, CLK (non-AMG) and C-Class models have a partial leather covering, unless you spring for full leather on the E320 models.

M

lexusguy · April 2004

even the LS430? I was under the impression it is 100% real deal. The XJ8 is 100% conolly, and that doesnt cost anymore than the other players in the segment.

boomsama · April 2004

so would you guys think that the '05 GS seats be more supportive than the ES/'04GS seats? I might take a visit to my local dealer to have a look at these seats

The leather in the camry feels very rough, and the seats arent exactly soft either. It's like sitting on a wooden bench.

ckelly14 · April 2004

Mark:

I agree with you completely. Over the last 7 years my wife and I have owned: 1993 Toyota Camry, 1998 ES 300, 1999 Ford Explorer, 2001 Audi A6 2.7 T, 2001 Honda Accord; 2002 Acura MDX and, my recent purchase, a 2001 Audi A4 1.8 T. After owning these cars, there is absolutely no question in my mind that Lexus/Toyota makes the most reliable cars out there. Period. The worst made cars- Audi. No question.

I purchased my 2001 Audi A4 as a CPO car in December and it has been to the shop 4 times- trip computer not working, 2 check engine lights, clutch replacement. Fortunately, all were replaced on Audi's dime as it was a CPO car. They balked at replacing the clutch, trying to tell me, in pleasant words, that my driving caused the clutch to give out in 3 months. However, I found out they had no documentation on the condition of the clutch during their "300 point" inspection, so they replaced it.

As insane as it sounds, our favorite car of the bunch is the A4. There is simply not a better driving car out there. Yes, I am still considering a new Audi for my next vehicle. I just don't find a better mix of interior comfort, looks and driving than this car. My caution is to buy new or CPO. If it is CPO, make sure it is from a reputable dealer.

I can't say I would recommend the new A6. My 2001 A6 2.7T was fast and had a beautiful interior, but the driving was "floaty" and the steering imprecise. I would like more room than the A4 but the driving characteristics of the current A6, along with the poor reliability, would keep me at arms length unless the 2005 changes drastically.

Honestly, on every trip to the shop I told my wife "I should have bought a Lexus". However, every time I'm in the market, I just can't find a model that suites me. I almost bought a GS 400 a few years back, but I personally think it was one of the worst rear wheel drive cars I have ever driven in regards to steering and control. I remember hitting an on ramp fairly hard and almost losing control. I will look at the new GS but it is unlikely to change very much. Two different philosophies.

diesel11 · April 2004

BTW, full leather seating (over inserts) can be had for an extra $1500 in the E320. So if full leather is your main criteria, then Mercedes is your answer.

Fred

lexusguy · April 2004

The A4 is a great drivers car indeed. However, I would argue that a 3 series beats it at everything, and is more reliable as well. The 330ix takes care of the quattro issue. I've driven the A4 3.0, and its nice, but there's just no power there. With the automatic and 220hp, it needs about 8 seconds to make it to 60mph, which is the bottom of the class. Even the ES330 can beat it now. The 3 series with the same 220hp can pull 6 second 0-60 sprints, and compete with the likes of the 265hp Maxima and 270hp TL. I agree that the previous GS certainly was not the sportiest car in the world. However, that doesnt mean all of Japan is like that. Want an engaging drive AND reliability?

Try a new G35 sedan. It will beat an A4 at every performance catergory, and Infinti's reliability is up there with Lexus as gold standard. The G also has some serious torque, and when you mash the go pedal, it hunkers down and you get an almost V8 like rush. The A4 3.0 kind of wheezes out of first gear, and the engine is working really hard to lug all that weight around. Another great car is the new for '04 TL. Acura took a "nice for its price" near lux and turned it in to a real sport sedan. With the 6-speed manual and the A-spec package, it will beat everybody else in the segment. The A4 wouldnt even stand a chance.

boomsama · April 2004

mmm, the G and TL arent available in australia

diesel11 · April 2004

Funny, I made a post last night about the leather on Lexus and Mercedes, and it didn't register. I'll try again.

As for the Lexus line-up, even the LS430 has leather seating trim, not full leather. This info is available on the Lexus site under:
http://www.lexus.com/models/ls/specifications.html

Mercedes does have the full leather option on the E320, but it costs an extra $1500 over the leather seating inserts. Personally this is a fair amount of money IMO for something you probably won't really notice, but I understand why someone might care about this or want it.

I think saying one car is better than another is kind of silly, because in this price range, you are going to get a quality product.

ACURA: best deal for the money, but some cheapness on the interior, and some recent concerns about transmissions.
MERCEDES: Total quality product with the best safety features. Some general reliability problems according to Consumer Reports and JD Power.
LEXUS: More money for a little less product than Acura, but highest build quality and reliability. Probably not as exciting to drive as Acura or Mercedes. Most Lexus buyers know this and don't mind because they prefer the other benefits.

Finally, I would also say the E-Class is the most beautifully-styled of any car in this class. Sorry don't know or care for Audi at all and thus can't comment.

Long Live Lexus as the #1 Luxury seller since 2001.

Fred

lexusguy · April 2004

I agree that Acura interiors in the past werent so great, but the new TSX, TL, and this coming RL have some of the best interiors in their classes. The mid $20s TSX absolutely embarrases the C320 in terms of interior materials.

Boomsama, do you have the Nissan Skyline? Or the Gloria? Or... hm I'm not sure what Honda calls the TL in Japan.

mariner7 · April 2004

TL might not be sold in Japan, or anywhere else besides NA. Legend (RL) used to be sold in Europe and Japan. But I read Honda doesn't think it's worthwhile and is discontinuing. So Honda developped two pretty good cars just to sell in NA. Kind of amazing they can still make a profit off them!

The biggest Honda sedan sold in Japan might be the Inspire, our Accord, where it is considered a luxury car.

maxhonda99 · April 2004

"The mid $20s TSX absolutely embarrases the C320 in terms of interior materials."

I don't know about that. First of all, the simulated wood in the TSX really does look fake. I mean really fake. Second, the leather is pretty cheap. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the C-class interior is all that nice either, but I wouldn't exactly say the TSX "absolutely embarrases" the C320 interior.

diesel11 · April 2004

I think it's pretty hard to talk about leather quality on new cars, like the new TL. I sat in this vehicle only 4 months ago and tested it for over an hour.

Many, many, many plusses with this car. But the leather was only OK. Looked nice and smelled ice, but not high quality. You know they have to skimp on some things, because they have so many other awesome things in the vehicle (engine, sound system, safety etc).

You need to compare older vehicles leather to get an idea of quality, and you need to know if the owner took good care of the leather.

I saw a 2001 Jaguar type-S in a local dealer, and the leather was aweful. Cracks everywhere and all faded. Terrible!!! I have seen older Mercs that are from the early 90s, that have great looking leather.

The Acura TL has leather inserts, and the wood is fake...and loks cheap. But as mentioned there are things in this car that put my GS to shame, like the sound-system and price.

You need to condition your leather and take careof the interior frequently if you want the car to look good long-term. But most people aren't like me, as I like to keep my cars for 10+ years. My last car was a 1995 civic which I loved

Fred

boomsama · April 2004

Lexusguy: Theres no TL here (or a rebadged version of it) we have the TSX here but its a bit too small...which is why im looking at the GS. The '05 GS looks like it has lower ground clearance, might that be due to some suspension changes making the car more fun to drive?

Mainly im thinking about the Lexus GS, but all this comparisons is fine by me. So I guess you could take out the Audi from the title and the category.

lexusguy · April 2004

I think you'll like the GS. I really like the current car, and its 7 years old at this point. The new car could be lowered, or it could be larger wheels giving it the appearance of a lower stance, the max on the previous car where 17s. Based on the change in attitude of the '04 LS, my guess is that the new GS is going to take a significant step foward in driving dynamics, while retaining the traditional Lexus feel. I like tearing up some back roads as much as the next guy, but I spend about 98% of my time behind the wheel either in stop and go traffic, or on the highway, as most people probably do, and there's really no better car than a Lexus for that kind of work. It soaks up the potholes, manhole covers, and other crap that PA drivers have to deal with, keeps most noise out of the car, and the Mark Lev sound system will make you want to buy a $10,000 hifi so you can get that kind of sound at home.

Maxhonda, when I refered to the C320, I was mostly refering to that awful center console, and HVAC controls. Even the Toyota Solara looks upscale compared to that.

boomsama · April 2004

Lexusguy: Theres no TL here (or a rebadged version of it) we have the TSX here but its a bit too small...which is why im looking at the GS. The '05 GS looks like it has lower ground clearance, might that be due to some suspension changes making the car more fun to drive?

Mainly im thinking about the Lexus GS, but all this comparisons is fine by me. So I guess you could take out the Audi from the title and the category.

lexusguy · April 2004

Yeah I looked at Honda's au site, no TL. I think the Legend is still worth considering, you should at least give the car a test run. I'm sure Lexus has paid attention to the critics on the previous car, and this car will most likely be better equipped to handle its sport sedan competition.

boomsama · April 2004

Would the GS350GT possibly provide the excitement/fun factor and luxury to have the best of both worlds? Or will it just be another expensive waste of money?

lexusguy · April 2004

GS350GT?

boomsama · April 2004

yes GS350GT

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/?news/ae_news_story.php?id=45233

even the name sounds cool

lexusguy · April 2004

Yes, I saw in the GS forum. Sounds good, I've always wanted them to something like a GS500, this 350GT seems like pretty much the same thing, except with more horsepower, and way better mpg than a standard 5.0L. If these GT cars turn out to be real, I'll be VERY excited. That said, if you absolutely cant wait, the Inline 6 in the current GS300 is the same one as the legendary Supra. There are plenty of twin turbo kits available to take it to 500hp+, for as little as a few grand.

boomsama · April 2004

Personally, I dont really like the styling of the current GS that much. It looks abit old, with a humpback. I like the look of the '05 GS much better. Any ideas if the 3.5L will be all new or will it just be another tweaked version of the all new 3.0L with the '05?

lexusguy · April 2004

Yeah the new car is definitely a lot more attractive. The engines are all speculation at this point, all I can really tell you is at launch, there will be a new 3.0L 242hp 6, and the current 4.3L 300hp 8.

boomsama · April 2004

do you guys think that the GS350GT would just have a tweaked version of the GS300's engine?

and lexusguy, what car do you drive anyway? Thanks

maxhonda99 · April 2004

merc1,

Re: Post #49?

That's what your previous post is about.

Hey, I'm not a big fan of Benz interiors compared to Lexus or Audi interiors, but compared to recent BMW interiors and Acura and Infiniti interiors, they are a home run.

I've test driven a TSX. It's basically a Accord interior(which is no bad thing) but for the price premium they should have at least put real wood in. What can I say, fake wood ticks me off. If you're going to put wood in, make it the real stuff.

lexusguy · April 2004

My guess is that the GS350GT will be based on a new as yet unreleased 3.5L V6 from Toyota. The 350GT will supposedly have 300hp from its gas engine, and 300hp from 3.0L is something that nobody has been able to pull off at this point (except maybe the previous Euro spec M3?), so it would be a REALLY impressive engine if it was the 3.0L. Most likely it will be a 3.5, combined with a supposed 170hp electric, which if Toyota can actually pull off, they could basically own the planet, as they could be making 200-250hp cars that sip gasoline like a moped.

Personally I have two cars, an '01 LS430 that I drive to work every day, and an '00 XKR for weekends and such, though Im going to get rid of the Jag pretty soon.

pg48477 · April 2004

Electric and gasoline engine does not work together, so you can't combined HP and Torque of both engines. The way the hybrid systems works, at least for now, computer calculates which engine is better to use in different driving conditions.

lexusguy · April 2004

Um, thats completely wrong. The RX400h uses the electric to drive the rear wheels, and the gasoline engine for the front wheels. They can both work at the same time. Since the 40hp electric in the 400h isnt enough to do much for that car, it does most of its work in slow city traffic, when not much power is needed, but like in the Prius, both engines are capable of working at the same time. I suggest you read Motortrend's write up on HSD.

boomsama · April 2004

I'm now considering the BMW 530i since it does seem quite good. What do you guys think of it?

lexusguy · April 2004

Liked the old one, hate the new one. Ugly bangle styling, iDrive, active steering, drab, dull interior, 220hp is now bottom of the class. Expensive too. Dont make the mistake of thinking its like the RL where its going to come with everything for $45Kish. It will come with nothing. Expect to pay well over $50K if you want to match the RL feature for feature.

maxhonda99 · April 2004

lexusguy,

But you forget, the BMW with 220bhp is usually as fast as similar cars with 20-30 more horsepower.

It could be BMW underrates their engines?

lexusguy · April 2004

In some cases yes. But the 5 series is a heavy car, and it isnt going to beat 7.5 seconds with an automatic. The new RL will pound it in a stop light race. So will the M35.

ksoman · April 2004

the roads are on the other side of the mirror, the culture, the life, the cars, the people is all so different, how exactly are we mostly people in the US supposed to help out our friend down under decide on his cars?

maxhonda99 · April 2004

lexusguy,

Does everyone decide their car buying purchase on which car is going to pound which from 0-60?

I don't know about the M35 being faster. As we all know, Infiniti engines are basically overrated in terms of horsepower. I mean how much quicker is a G35 than a BMW 330i? A few tenths of a second. The 5-series is also due for a bigger engine. Rumor has it that the current 3.0L I6 will be upgraded to 3.2 or 3.5L.

Also, from the looks of the new RL, I would rather be driving a banglized 5-series.

lexusguy · April 2004

Yes, I would say that 0-60 matters more than any other car performance statistic to most people. Skid pad numbers, 60-0 braking times, lane change manuvers, etc. all take a back seat to 0-60.

Infiniti engines suffer from poor transmition programming and tall gearing, not necessarily "overrated" power. How much bigger is a G35 than a 3 series? If Infiniti can get their autobox right this time, 280hp in the M35 should have some serious performance. How much faster is the FX45 than every german SUV except the Cayenne turbo? Thats an example of Infinti's supposedly overrated 315 horsepower showing its taillights to the vastly more expensive ML55AMG and X5, of which the ultra performance version isnt even sold anymore.

Enjoy trying to figure out how to turn on the air conditioning, and driving your 5 to and from the shop.

pg48477 · April 2004

Both engines are capable of working at the same time, but you will not get the same performance as you would from one gasoline engine with the same HP and Torques as hybrid. Plus you probably will get the same performance for RX330 with 3.3L as you would from RX400H(which has the same 3.3L plus electric motor). The reason you get better millage per gallon is, as you said, Electric motor does most of it's work in slow traffic.

It's is a grate technology, you get the same performance as gasoline engine but better millage due to electric motor.

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