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Nissan 350Z
So what do we know: 3.5 liter VQ series V-6 enriched to 280-300 BHP, 6-speed stick available, base version sub-$30,000 and under 6 seconds enroute 60 mph. Anyone out there got any more on this potential breath of fresh air. Fast, 'Fordable and Fun.
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The three engine options, will be:
a 286bhp 3.5 liter V6 (350Z)(the only engine available at first)
a 335bhp twin-turbo V6 (350Z Turbo)(the same engine as the next Skyline GT-R, more hp than the 320bhp Porsche 911)
a 197bhp 3.0-liter V6 (300Z)(the volume seller)
Convertibles will be available with all engine options. I can't wait to see pictures of the convertible!
I'm anxious to see the car, but it will also interesting to me to see how successful Nissan is in its marketing / business strategy with the new Z.
If I could afford a Boxster I'd get one. It's a Porsche after all
However, if I could get a car that looks great and performs like a Boxster but would be inexpensive enough to allow me to get it and still eat on a daily basis, then I'm getting that one
You've got a point with the 318i, but it wasn't very long-lived and never achieved much in the way of sales. I also believe that a major factor in BMW's decision to discontinue it was indeed image concerns: they had to cut too many corners to hit the 318 price target and feared the reputation of the higher end models would be adversely affected as a result (in the US, at least). A German business associate of mine also pointed out that BMW didn't introduce a full $50k version of the M3 to the states until 2001 because it was thought that US buyers were too image conscious to pay that much for a "3". Prior to 2001, we got a "cheapie" M3 compared to the less image conscious German market.
Charlie,
Actually, I guess I could afford a Porsche without giving up too many meals. But will I buy one?? Probably not. The M3, C32 and even S2000 are more likely candidates, given my mood on any given day. By the way, image consciousness is not confined just to the Porsche wannabes -- the 2002 redesign of the 911 front end was supposedly done to distinguish it from the Boxter so as to give prospective 911 buyers a bit more exclusivity. Heaven forbid that your $120k 911 turbo is mistaken for my $45k Boxter from the front!!
My point was that Nissan can probably shoose to do whatever they want with the new Z: go after the high volume, relatively lower price market segment with a good, but not exceptional product. Or, go after the lower volume, higher end market segment with a more exclusive product. I just don't think they can do both, at least not immediately upon introduction.
Then of course there is it's Stealth twin, with a 10 second base model...
And in the JDM, things are strange. They sell RX-7's that are depowered, and even though the top, 280-hp ones sell for $33,000, the cheaper, less powerful ones can be had for a mere $24,000.
Also, in the JDM, you'll likely be unable to find a car with more than about 280hp, even the GT-R and EVO VII. I think there's some sort of horsepower limit there or something. That would explain the base-level 286hp VQ available right off the bat (and Nissan would need development time to make a VQ35DET or DETT engine). The 197-hp one? Sounds like the same I4 currently in the 200SX/Silvia, and if put in the Fairlady, I don't see Nissan selling them here. Perhaps all the better...
My wife's gonna kill me next year. At least I'll die happy.
HiC
Seriously, the Honda S2000 is a nice $32k alternative to the Z for those who value sunshine. I notice the Z pictures do not show a sunroof and it doesn't look possible with the shape of the roof. Perhaps a targa will be in the future.
I am beginning to think that the last Toyota Supra Turbo (1998 RIP), with its almost respectable hatchback storage and targa roof (not to mention sub 5 second 0-60 and almost 1g handling), may be in line for a resurection to rekindle the Supra / Z wars of yesteryear.
6462: Honda kinda does have it's butt in gear. The 260hp CL-S could be a good competitor for the Z, and arguably just as good looking. But they do need to replace the Prelude, and some descendant of the S2000 could do well. And I still rather respect Honda for never having produced a forced-induction motor.
I'll believe that when I see it. But I sure hope you're right. That was the one factor keeping me from getting too excited about this car. I was assuming it would end up being closer to 3,500 lbs.
The weight is listed as 3150lbs (est).
280 Horsepower@6500 RPM
253 lb/ft torque@4500 RPM
That gives it an impressive 11.25 hp per lb ratio
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
The NSX does loose image from the cheaper Acura's and Honda's. The NSX is a Honda, that right there means it won't have quite the image of a marque like Ferrari. NSX's haven't been a big money maker for Honda, they just build them as a display of their technology to get people in the showrooms. Largely because they don't have the same image as Ferrari. That's not really relevant though, because we're talking about three different versions of the same car. While the NSX is a totally different platform than the rest of the Honda/Acura linup. Lesser versions of a high end car will take away from the image of the top end model. It would be like if Ferrari offered 4 cylinder 360 Modena's with 110 hp, cloth seats, no a/c, etc, for $15,000. That's going to take away from the Image of the $180,000 360. Considering many of the buyers of those high end cars are only going after the image in the first place, that becomes an important factor. Most people who don't know about cars don't know the difference between a 318 and an M3 because they look very similar to the untrained eye. Like somebody else mentioned, the don't sell the 318's here anymore. That's because they want to keep a higher end image. They still sell 4 cylinder cars in Europe, so it's not like they've been completely discontinued. Still, BMW doesn't have the same image of say, Porsche who is known for building only sports cars(I curse the day the Cyenne comes out, Porsche is going down hill). So basically, no, I don't think a cheaper less powerful Z should be sold if they hope to compete with the S2000's, BMW's, Porsche's, etc. Image is very important to a cars sucess(ever wonder why the Japanese sports cars of the early 90's died off including the last Z, they didn't have the image to match the price they were being sold for).
Oh, and a twin turbo won't necessarily add 100+hp. Heck, the last generation Z only had a 75hp difference between the N/A and TT models. Also, the new VQ block isn't quite as sturdy as the last VG block. It's made out of aluminum which is weaker, and has an open deck design so the cylinder walls can't take as much stress. So that may be a factor in how much power they'd get out of a turbo Z. Also, twin turbo doesn't mean lots of power. It's usually done to reduce turbo lag. Many twin turbo cars get swapped to single turbo when going for outrageous power. Of course all this talk of a turbo Z is assuming they even build one. It's all rumors, and I'll believe it when I see it(or atleast hear it from Nissan).
I suscribe to both C/D and R/T and I've yet to see those articles (or to receive my December issues.........but in retrospect, I would think the post office in entitled to a little slack.
IMO the NSX failed to inspire customers for exotic cars for one reason and one reason only, it has a damn V-6 for a power plant. That is the same reason Toyota Supra and Nissan Z took a nose dive (besides price) in the North American market. If you want to attract people that like performance automobiles, you best stick a V-8 in the chassis and make it RWD or hang it up. I suspect the new Nissan Z will take a back seat in performance to the last year of the "F" bodies and also end up eating smoke from the Mustang Cobras,and maybe even the GT's. So unless Nissan finds a way to market that new Z car for less than $25K, it will end up being about as popular as the last Z car we saw in the market. V-6's don't cut the mustard in my book.
The F-body might be able to outrun the new Z, but it is being discontinued. With the supposed rampant desire of all performance car people to have a V8, why did the F-bodies sell so slowly? I drove a V8 Firebird a few times when I had a normally aspirated 300ZX. For what I value, the 300ZX had far better performance than the Firebird.
If you want to use the V8 argument, you might want to stick with Cobras. At least Ford has been slowly adapting stuff that foreign cars have used for 30 years or so.
I like both cars but the option of the 4 seats in the RX-8 makes it way more practicle. Plus the wife would go for the Mazda over the nissan due to the 4 vs. 2 seats. That whole where are we going to put the kid thing;)
Not to be disrespectful to American musclecar advocates, but the I suspect the Z will appeal to a market segment looking for a tad more refinement and reliability (and a lot fewer rattles). Most Ford and GM owners don't get that concept and I, for one, don't get the musclecar mentality that cylinders and cubic inches are the measure of a car's prowess. And I even owned a 12-cylinder Jag E-Type back in the early 80's.
dohc32v - Choices are great, enjoy your Mustang.
To understand the beauty of a fine car is to understand much much more than the Big Hub caps theory.
A loud exhaust....big cubes....etc etc often equate to better!
As one learns in life. bigger is certainly not always better.
But that's in Japan. Here, it's a defferent story. Only here would a consumer reject a car because the name "doesn't sound as prestigious". There's a word for that: prejudice.
But is that the reason the Japanese sportscars of the early 90's failed? Well, the Corvette has done well under the Chevrolet banner since its inception, and even now, Chevrolet sells the absolute cheapest of GM models. It hasn't hurt the Corvette's image, so no, I don't think that's behind the failure of Japanese sports models.
If you asked me why the Fairlady, Supra, RX-7 failed the first time around, I'd say it was because they were priced too low. The measely $30,000 it took to buy an RX-7 wasn't enough to give it image and aura like a Corvette or a CL500.
And just so as to avoid further "debate" about domestics vs. imports, comparing a Corvette to an RX-7 is like comparing a hamburger to a hot dog. Not liking the RX-7 over the Corvette is not liking the hamburger because it is too fat.
Not me, I crammed a six foot ladder in to my mustang coupe the other day.
Saying the RX7's, and etc failed because they were to cheap is ignorant. They didn't have the Corvette, BMW, Porsche, etc image simply because they were Japanese. Japanese cars for a long time have been viewed as economy cars, not as performance cars. When the RX7's, Supra's, etc were getting extremely spendy in the early 90's, they appealed to the younger generation. The problem is that most of the younger generation wasn't in a position to afford the RX7's, Supra's, etc. Many older buyers that could actually afford them wanted something American or European with the history and image built up. That's why they failed, they were to expensive for the buyers they were targeting.
Today, the generation that grew up wanting the RX7's and Supra's but not being able to afford them are getting to a point where they can. Now you see the come back of the Japanese sports cars. In a way, the RX7, Supra, 300zx, etc paved the way for the cars being sold today. They established a sporting image of Japanese cars in a younger generation that has grown to a point where they are now out buying sports cars of their own.
Here's an example that may help. It's like if KIA or Hyundai were to come out with a supercar today. It could rival the Mclaren F1 in performance, and only cost $150,000. A performance bargain by all standards, but it wouldn't sell simply because the Korean car companies have no image in the sports car world. Sure some of the younger guys may be able to look past the fact that it's a Kia, but the older generation that can actually afford it would not.
In america I think it was a combination of the big-I-Can-Do-Everything car frenzy and what you talked about that ended the japanese sport coupe and a lot of other makers too.
Your comback idea is right on. I grew up wanting RX-7s and Supras and soon with new editions coming out I might be able to afford one in a few years. Of course the germans have caught on to this and there is talk of Alfa Romeo and maybe some other auto makers making a go of it across the pond again. I think the market is about to get really interesting and ultra competitive again.
I think the new 350Z looks hot and based on my previous experience with a 1990, which along with the original Lexus Coupe (1992) and the last Toyota Supra, were the three best vehicles to come out of Japan.
I have already placed my order for one with my local dealer. Make mine RED.
The RX-7, 300ZX and Supra actually had more history than the Viper or NSX (both of which survive today), yet they failed. It's all about image, and these three cars didn't have it. I think that has more to do with their being inexpensive than their coming from brands that sell cheap cars (Dodge sells cheap cars and Viper...).
But you're right about SUV's. I think as the SUV craze dies away, more sports coupes will come back into the market to compete with the Z (and others). I'm looking forward to it.
Frankly, I like both of the vehicles. It would be tough to choose. If the Z is going to be around $30K, then what will the RX-8 cost? Also, I think I read somewhere that they are going to release a new RX-7 after the RX-8 comes out. That will REALLY stir things up!
Obi
For 1, the Viper is American, and a large part of my point is that Japanese cars in general don't have the same image as American and European cars.
For 2, I wouldn't say the NSX has succeeded per say. Honda makes very little money off of the NSX. I've even read that they loose money. The only reason they built it was to display their technology, and improve the Honda/Acura name. It's a marketing campaign, not a lets build this car to make money thing.
For 3, if the Z cars, RX7's, Supra's, etc, failed because they were to cheap, how come they were such a success when they were cheap. The Z was selling like crazy in the 70's and 80's. Why, well because it was a bargain. In the 90's the Z, and all it's Japanese competitors went way up market. They got really technologically advanced, and really expensive. All of a sudden they didn't sell. Gee, maybe it's because they were to expensive for their target market.
For 4, how would they even justify selling them for more money. Sure they have quite a bit of technology in them, but nothing compared to the NSX's aluminum space frame, VTEC V6 with all sorts of F1 technology, Viper with it's V10, gobs of power and torque. These cars are expensive for a reason, they actually cost a lot to build. Don't know about the Viper, but the NSX is largely hand built. They are way out of the league of the RX7's, 300z's, and Supra's.
Now when do you folks think the turbo version comes out?
http://www.zcar.com