Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
1) You're right, but the image of the Z wasn't like the image of the Civic/Corolla/Justy. I think people didn't look at "Japanese cars" holistically, but looked at each individual car's image, just like the domestics. Viper was a Dodge, and Dodge had a rep for poor quality... good image didn't seem to be there to help it.
2) We're talking about image, here. The NSX has been an extraordinary success with image, if nothing else. Can you honestly say you've driven by an NSX and not said "wow" ?
3) So you're saying the image of the 90's trio didn't fit with the image of previous gens? Yep, that's accurate. But there's no reason a car's image can't change... just look at the Mercury Cougar.
4) It's a marketing decision... put it in a price class of it's own to build some image. They shouldn't have to justify it... nobody else has has to. For example: Cadillac sells a rebadged Tahoe for $15,000 more, and I'll bet that price is ... a little inflated to create good image, compared to the actual value of the vehicle. Same with many other Caddies, they don't have to justify it, though.
So the Z, RX and Supra all had images previously, and all failed because they tried to change their image from budget-racer to high-dollar sports-car. That tells me two things: we North American car buyers are both stubborn and prejudiced. Stubborn because we can't accept these formerly inexpensive cars as "higher image", prejudiced because the judgement is based on image instead of actual technology and value.
The NSX is respected but not that many are bought. Honda I think was a little too ambitious with that price tag. The next one might have a v8 and be priced far less, now that would be great brand positioning. Price it to compete with the corvette Z06 and then things will get fun.
Early 90's Japanese cars failed because they got too damn expensive. A Turbo Z in '90 was $30 Grand, So was a 3000GT VR4. By the time '95 hit, these cars stickered somewhere in the neighborhood of $50 Grand and they didn't make that much money for the car companies. These cars were built on platforms of their own and didn't share engives with other cars in their stable. Huge overhead.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
The Japanese four horsemen (Z, VR-4, Supra, RX-7) I still don't think were too expensive, they were a good value for what you got. But everybody sees them as too expensive because their predecessors were cheapies. The problem would have been averted had they changed the names of the cars to suit the new image they set.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I presently have a convertible Saab. The convertible is fun, but I am not particularly attached to it.
With the new 350z, I am not anxious to wait for the convertible and nor am I excited to pay what I suspect will be at least about $5000 more.
Anyone have any comments on the advisability of one versus the other?
You raise some very good points. Thanks for the feedback.
Hambone, the Z does not have to compete with Honda and Toyota, rather Honda and Toyota need to compete with it. The 350Z fills the niche (which by the Z's inception will be empty) formerly occupied by the Honda Prelude. Except the Z has a two crucial differences: 1) it has a V6, and 2) it actually has exciting style (that's something Honda and Toyota will never match, by the looks of it). But you are right that there needs to be another coupe. My vote goes to the beautiful 200SX (Silvia) - get it over here, Nissan!
http://thehollywoodextra.com/nissan/nissan.html
That website is wrong
bobbyknight: the 240SX's designed in 1988 are also still pretty fresh-looking. Both the coupes and the hatchbacks could probably still be sold today, with some minor changes to the headlights.
Who is going to buy one? You are into the Market level of a Cobra Mustang or an SS F body, which would suck the doors off something like that.
Oh, but if they did bring a GTR with the RB26DETT, it would be the one blowing the doors off Cobra's and SS's.
It would be awsome if they brought over the Silvia too(200SX, JDM version of 240sx). We did have the 240sx in 1989 through 1997. Both the S13/RPS13(fastback) and S14 chassis(I have a S13 as my name says). However, they are on the S15 chassis in Japan right now, and it's one of the best looking sport compact cars in the world(and it sends power to the correct wheels, the rear). It would sell like crazy if they brought it over and priced/marketed it between the SER Spec V and 350z. That would put it right in the range of the RSX, GTS, WRX, etc. It would out perform all except possibly the WRX, which would make for a very close race. They should move on to the an S16 chassis within a few years, and maybe if we're lucky it will make it to the US. Actually now that I think about it, there is a chance that it could. Infiniti has said that all of there future models will be RWD. If they want a smaller car, they currently have no chassis to base it off of in the USA. So, if infiniti decides they want a smaller car(like the old G20 or J30) they will pretty much have to bring over the Silvia.
Lastly, I wouldn't exactly call the Honda Prelude a niche car. It's a FWD sport compact car. The Integra/RSX is virtually the same thing, atleast performance wise. There's also the Celica, Sentra, and many many other crappy FWD SCC's(sorry, I'm a RWD and AWD fan, so I don't really think they are crappy, just their driveline). The Z is completly different, it's RWD, has better performance, image, it's a 2 seater. Basically the Z is a sports car, the Prelude is a sport compact car.
The Z is kinda a niche car for now. Performance wise, it does have a lot of competitors in the sports car market(S2000, soon to be RX8, M3, M Coupe/Roadster, Boxster, 911, Corvette, etc, etc, I'm not saying it will outperform all of these, just that it will be in their performance range). However the only real competitor within it's price range is the S2000 which as we all know is a roadster, so kinda different market(although I'm sure many will cross shop). I think the RX8 will be the closest competitor when it comes out.
Sorry for the long post, I just haven't replied lately and I'm a big Nissan fan.
And the Prelude competing with the Integra? No, I don't think so. Why would Honda be so stupid? The Prelude is not in a niche with the Integra, imo.
Gee for that price, which would you buy? A 325Ci or a Camaro SS? The two may be in the same price range, but are in entirely separate classes.
Oh, and Nissan does have something in the same market as the Accord, Grand Am, etc. The 240HP Altima.
IMO, they do need to bring over a good car for the upper end of the sport compact market. The SE-R is a nice car, but it's mostly suited to competing with the ZX3's, SI's, etc. Basically it's at the lower end of the SCC market. The Silvia would be the perfect car to compete in the upper end(WRX, RSX, Prelude, GTS, etc). Then the Z can be marketed towards the true sports car market(S2000, etc) and thus, no internal competition.
Now, comparing the Prelude to the RSX isn't really fair, since the Prelude was already on the way out when RSX cannibalized its market. That really is the reason Prelude's being cancelled: the Integra became too similar and internal competition would be too great. Come to think of it, that's probably also the reason the 3rd-gen Integra lasted 8 years.
The Altima can compete with the Grand Am and Accord sedans, but if you're looking for a coupe, Nissan's lost your business.
Nissan, if you're listening:
Sentra, 200SX. One coupe, one sedan, same engines (SR20DE).
Altima, 300SX. One coupe, one sedan. Give the 300SX the VQ30DD.
Maxima, 350ZX. One coupe, one sedan, one convertible.
There's something for everybody here (bring in the Wingroad or Avenir to compete with Protege5, Matrix/Vibe, IS300 Sportcross, Focus ZX5). Not only that, but the numbering would make sense again!
I am a fan of Honda, having just bought an S2000. I also owned two previous Acuras - an 1987 Integra and 1995 Legend GS 6-speed. To me, the Prelude was a total mystery. Perhaps heavier and with more horsepower than the Integra, but behind it in true performance. And well behind newer offerings by Audi, BMW and others relative to a "luxury" sport coupe. I never could figure out who the Honda's target buyer was. A long former girlfriend of mine bought two over the years, but she was a study in contradictions herself (i.e. nuts).
That the Prelude survived as long as it did is a tribute to the fact that Honda has an excellent reputation and that some people will buy almost anything with their marque on it. But I think the Prelude was barely competitive as a "near luxury sport coupe" at least 5-7 years before it got its plug pulled. Dont' get me wrong - it was a very solid car but just with a combination of characteristics that resulted in a very narrow market appeal.
Just my 2 cents.
P.S. Another "just my opinion" comment. There may be some people that absolutely prefer a two door coupe, but for me, I would only give up the extra versitility of a sedan if I was getting something in exchange for going the coupe route: namely performance or exceptional aesthetics. I made that choice when I got the S2000 as a third car. But when I got my 1995 Nissan Maxima SE, I tested the Accord Sedan and Coupe and found that neither performed as well. Notwithstanding some notable successes (CLK, 330ci), the luxury "sport coupe" is a marketing challange today, partly because of the quality of performance sedans from BMW, Audi and others. I was either going with a replacement sedan (530i sport) or a true sports car as a third car (S2000), but couldn't rationalize a coupe (M3) as our family's second car.
I think the problem with the Prelude was, as you said, the fact that it wasn't clear who was being targetted. It definitely wasn't for the pocket rocket crowd that couldn't afford it and would get better performance and more tossability out of a lighter car anyway. It wasn't the "sports car" crowd that wanted more performance and could either afford much more, or would go used to get it. I think the target market was people like me from a year or two ago: people who wanted a serious driver-oriented car (in the same vein as a 911 or a M3) but just didn't have deep pockets. A friend of mine who owned an SH and now owns an '99 M3 (I think '99) told me the Prelude was 70% of his M3 at 50% of the cost. If you wanted a driver-oriented, low-slung, uncommon true coupe (true = has a trunk) then the Prelude was virtually the only game in town without adding $15-25k to the price tag. Unfortunately, we're not a big market; tossability definitely comes at the expense of solidity unless you're ready for some big car payments, and most people in my age and income level will choose tossability over solidity while auto journalists will choose solidity. That's why the Prelude won the awards, while the Integras got sold out.
The other thing to remember is that the Prelude, built in Japan, was subject to some hefty import taxes, unlike (as of 2001) pretty much all of its competitors. Like many other imports, U.S.-spec'd Preludes were neutered versions of their JDM cousins. The Prelude Type S sold in Japan came with heated leather seats, a 220hp engine with more torque, standard ATTS AND four wheel steering, navigation, and the works. It was a compact performance-oriented luxury cruiser that would have competed directly with a 325Ci or a TT... but that car never made it to our shores.
I would have loved to see that car with a 2.3L I4 and a low-boost factory supercharger, and more meaty tires at all four corners, it would have been the Honda version of the CLK. I would have paid low $30s for it, even with the Honda logo on the grill...
I live on a university campus, and can't relp but notice what a huge sales success the Prelude has been. There are as many Preludes as there are Integras, and this on a campus where 1 in 4 cars is a Honda/Acura. That makes for an awful lot of Preludes. I think that the 350Z should have a model available in the general price range of the Prelude ($28,000 - $33,000) to appeal to all these current Prelude owners, with a turbo roadster version not going higher than the S2000 ($48,000).
If the price gets too high (over $50,000), then sales will be slow. Take the Audi TT for instance: the $50,000-59,000 price range puts it out of reach for many, and they remain a rare sight on these roads. The Z is similar in conception to the TT, but selling the car in the wrong price range will have a negative effect on sales.
300ZX - 3.0L, 240hp, $28,500
350ZX - 3.5L, 295hp, $35,000
350ZXT - 3.5L turbo, 330hp, $41,000
(The engines are hypothetical, the prices are in Canadian $ 'cuz I'm too lazy to convert right now)
I think the $32k to $36k USD price range for a 350Z will allow Nissan to produce a high quality car that competes with some costing $10k+ more from Europe. A sub-$30k 350Z is likely to require compromises that would kill the car for someone like me. And I think I represent at least one of the target demographics Nissan has in mind. I just bought an S2000 as a third car and, although I could afford a BMW M roadster, SLK320 or Boxter S, felt that the S2000 was very competitive in performace and much easier to justify on the pocketbook.
If you want something "fun" for $25k, get an Acura RSX-S. I'm a little to old for going in that direction and, had it not been for the great all-around performance attributes of the S2000, I would probably be driving an M3 Coupe this spring.
Also, the idea that you can stick 3 engines in a car and end up with a $10k price differential is, IMHO, the wrong approach. The S2000 has a world class chassis. The difference in production cost between the different engines mentioned above is probably less than $500. I read where the new 3.5L replacing the 3.0L in the Maxima/I35 is actually within $100 of the production cost of the former. A $10k price differential between different "versions" of the Z would require a lot more compromises than a few cc's of displacement. There is nothing wrong with the new Z not being affordable to everyone.
If a level headed buyer, who doesn't have his snoot up about driving a foreign car, looks at a Cobra Mustang, he would be a fool to buy a "Z". He could pocket anywhere from $2 to $6K by your numbers and still get a better car. If he wants a real rocket, all he has to do is put a blower on the Cobra and he will blow past anything out of Europe at three times the price.
The mustang is ugly. It has a big nose heavy front end. It understeers pretty bad. It is too long, too wide, and too heavy to be competitive. It handles like a whale(the cobra only slightly better than the GT). And it has a cheap and ugly interior. There is a reason why people are snooty about not driving a mustang.
And the idea that 0-60 would be the ultimate measure of a car's performance is not where I am at. That would be like suggesting I should like the design of a tract house by a production builder better than Frank Lloyd Wright's Fallingwater because the tract house is bigger.
So why is your dream car a Ferrari 360?? Maybe you actually "get it" and just can't admit it?
One other thing - the Mustang GT, Cobra and Cobra SVT convertibles are hands down define a niche occupied by no others, now that the Camaro is dead. There are pretty much no cars putting up those kinds of performance numbers at that price, with a droptop.
So I definitely give the Mustang its due; just because it's not right for me doesn't mean I can't respect it for what it is, and what it does well.
1) Sell a coupe with the Altima's V-6, and price it just above the Altima: $29,000 - $32,000. That 240hp would not only wipe out the RSX-S and the Accord V6 (for about the same price), but it would match the Grand Prix GTP and come close to the Mustang GT coupe (for about the same price). Call it 300SX or 350SX (depending on which engine goes in), but think of it as an "Altima coupe". The current Silvia body would work well. Z aside, I think Nissan needs to do this anyway.
2) Sell the base 350ZX just above Maxima's range ($39,000) where it would compete directly in price with the BMW 325Ci and the Acura CL Type-S. If the price goes any higher than this, the Z will price itself out of the market for a second time. Even in this situation, comparing the Z to a 325Ci is a bit of a stretch, unless the Z is sold as an Infiniti model. Maybe that's what needs to happen. People often don't accept the idea of a $40k Mazda, and they might not accept a $40k Nissan.
On the other hand, Nissan could charge a ludicrously high price tag for the Z. Charge $59,000 - $65,000, give it at least 375hp and pit it directly against the Corvette. That would give it a "supercar" image and an aura about it that could not possibly come from a $40,000 car. I'd almost give it a better chance at survival in the $60k range than in the $40k range.
In summary: as good as I think the Z is, I don't give it very good chances of succeeding in the market today unless it can be a relatively inexpensive volume seller (e.g. Accord coupe, Camry Solara). If not, I can forsee it becoming a shrowded, quirky, expensive toy for midlife crises and the kids of millionaires (like Audi TT and Porsche Boxster... no offense intended), not the high-volume seller that Nissan needs it to be.
Just my $0.02 ($0.0126 USD).
The latest round of corporate layoffs notwithstanding, I still think there is a big market for a high performace 350Z in the $32k to $35k range ($50-55k Canadian). I don't see buyers cross shopping a BMW 3 coupe. I see it being an alternative to the "toys" you mentioned at a price point that's much easier to justify as a non-primary car. The market for two seaters is, by definition, pretty narrow. Trying to price it at a point where it works as a daily driver for the average 25 year old would, I'm afraid produce a product that was more comparable to a Miata than a Boxter. Cute, but not exactly cutting edge performance.
Look, I'm probably just being influenced by my recent purchase of an S2000. If the 350Z was available at a comparable price, I would have shopped it. But not if it were designed with mass market compromises to compete at the low-middle end of the market.
By the way, I think the the S2000 lists for $48k Canadian (a little less than the US list of $32,400). How are they selling in Canada? How do you see the 350Z positioned against it?
As for your other comparisons, I'll repeat my previous statement. As a recent Honda S2000 buyer, I would have considered a 350Z if it offered comparable performance, aesthetics and value. None of the other cars you mentioned - the WRX, RSX, Cobra were within a mile of my list (although I understand the RSX is a great $20k something car for 20 somethings). The M3, Boxter S, CLK (not SLK) were. The S2000 was the only non-European car that competed for my attention. The Z could, potentially.
So you're not cross-shopping these cars, fine. But many people will. One year ago when rumors of a $30k 260-280hp Z were flying about, the new Z would have sat at a price/performance point with virtually no competition other than maybe the S2000 and the Audi TT---but that was a year ago. When the 350Z arrives, it's going to stack up against much stiffer competition. The RSX-S is inexpensive but hits 60 in a shade over 6 seconds and has many of the S2000's slick goodies. Little needs to be said about the WRX, which also undercuts a 350Z's price by a wide margin. The EVO and RX-8 are likely to fall into that same bucket. Mercedes-Benz has successfully moved into the low-end coupe market with a surprisingly high value coupe, and a CL-S will offer similar power output, higher value, full luxury content and a manual transmission by the time the 350Z arrives. The Z3 will finally get a modern restyling, while the Cobra convertible will remain the best high performance convertible value, while the S2000 continues winning 10-Best awards. In other words, the $20k to $40k coupe/2-seater market that seemed a little dry a year ago, is a LOT more competitive. The Z is no longer competing against merely the high-strung S2000 and one or two other niche cars. It's going to have to knock the doors off everything else out there if it wants to achieve real mass-market success at $30k. If it isn't a gem, buyers will have no problem with roomer, equally torquey and smooth-revving Acura CLs or 325Cis, higher-strung S2000s, and the like. The 350Z isn't entering a "it's me or the highway" market, that was my point.
Oh, and when you're converting prices, you're better off to analogue the prices for competing cars first. If you simply convert the dollar amounts, you end up with "discrepancies" like the following: directly converted at 0.63 cents on the dollar, a Honda Prelude starts at $17,800 USD, an Acura RSX Type-S is under $20k USD and a Mazda Protege starts at only $9,800 USD.
When I looked at the conversion of a BMW 530i, the Canadian price was much closer to the US equivalent. Even Hondas seem to be priced in Canada more in line with their US counterparts. The S2000 list of $48k converts to about $1,700 less than the $32,440 US list (i.e. about 5.3% less in Canada).
Note: I used 1.56:1 as the current conversion factor, although it was as high as 1.60 a few weeks ago. Educate me if I am missing something in these comparisons.
P.S. I fully agree with you that Nissan can't afford to limit production of the 350Z to Honda S2000 volumes and have it be financially successful. On the other hand, as an S2000 owner, I confess to enjoying somewhat the feeling of exclusivity. That was probably a subliminal factor in my purchase decision. I am thankful that Honda has been financially successful enough with their mainstream cars to be able to develop a "poor man's NSX" as more of a marketing/exhibition project than a profit center.
All I can say is if the Z can't beat the new Altima, Nissan is in very deep do-do.
I've used the exchange rate of $0.63USD/$CAD, which is equal to about $1.58. Today's rate is $0.6402, the lowest it got was 0.6251.
As much as we'd like Nissan to come out with a Z packed with technology and selling in price ranges that give it "exclusivity", I fear that would lead to either the Z's demise or Nissan's demise, or even both. (Oops, I forgot. That already happened.)
I think Nissan has great potential in the North American market, and they're not cashing in on it. In my opinion, the Z isn't going to help them tap that wealth of potential customers. There are so many things that they could do better, like their rather poor entry-level luxury sedan, the G20. Most people see it as just a Sentra in disguise, and it really doesn't sell well.
A viable option would be to bring over the Skyline from Japan: it's price range in the Japanese market is approximately USD$20,500 - $25,500 (perfect!), it's got great styling and more power than anything else in its class (215hp at base-level, 260hp option). And a coupe. It's like Nissan's North American branch has never heard of a coupe before! I know, I say that in almost every post. Imagine I must think it's important.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love for Nissan to offer the Z. But if they stake their entire North American business on just the Z, they're going to evaporate before too long.
Yes they handle terribly, that is why Car and Driver rated the Cobra R as the best road holding car for 2001 at 0.99g. Wake up and smell the flowers. The Germans just wish they could build a better machine for the money.