Mazda6 Sedan

tomcat630 · February 2002

Jettas are so small inside too, they are really compacts. Also, in EUR, the Bora as it's called is not half as popular as it is here. The Golf rules there.

The Mazda 6 cant get here fast enough!

tiredofmanual · February 2002

For just about whatever they want here in the Chicago area. Volkswagon has done a wonderful job of marketing it and it seems like the only vehicle question the young "hip" professionals living on the north side ask is "which color Jetta should I get?" It's laughable.

One thing is for sure though. Mazda doesn't market toward that crowd so they have no chance of charging those prices. The "Zoom Zoom" crowd wants bang for the buck, not "I need something trendy and don't care about value."

If Mazda wants to charge $25K for a 6, I'm very likely to just spend the extra $5K and get an Audi A4 Quattro. The residual value of the Audi will easily make up the difference.

blueguydotcom · February 2002

Well if Mazda has an MSRP of 25k on a decked 6, you can expect (considering it's a Mazda) that you'll get the car at or below invoice. Tough to do with an A4 (which is a delicious looking and driving car).

And please don't remind me of the Jetta's ubiquity. I see it daily. Argh. I wish the WRX had had a nice interior or that some other company made a car with a near-luxury interior and a fun engine. Tough to find for 25k and below. In fact, with the exception of the WRX (which is all fun and zero luxury), it doesn't really exist outside of the Jetta right now. Maybe the 6 will change that? I hope so. Hopefully Mazda will use decent components (unlike the chincy stuff in the 626, Tribute, Miata and Protege) and offer nice leather, along with a manual.

storyteller · February 2002

If the 6 comes in priced in the high 20s, it is headed for deep discounting and a lot of sales resistance. I'd hope for a range of 22 to 27K at first. I think it is possible that Mazda can sell a loaded 6 for close to 30K some day, but not now. After all, Subarus made the climb from an inexpensive niche vehicle to a car that sells well in spite of being very pricey for its size. But Subaru earned that. The 6 has got to win a following based on excellence. It better not show up with prices that invite comparisons to Audi.

audia8q · February 2002

all this price speculation is hilarious...

nobody on here has actually driven the car, except for a select few of us,and few have even seen the car but yet everyone is a pricing expert...mmmmmm interesting

Rich

blueguydotcom · February 2002

Pricing expert? Man, pay attention to the market. Even if the 6 out performed a BMW 330i it wouldn't sell at all priced at 30k. Doesn't matter how good the car is if it's priced too high. And any price that puts Mazda at the same level as Toyota/Honda is too high. They're Mazdas, not exactly cars viewed with much esteem. Look at the way people are freaking over the few 30k Altimas. Nissan shot itself in the foot by undercontenting and overpricing the Altima (yes sales are higher but they could have been through the roof if Nissan had put even a basic pathetic Honda-level interior in the car). I for one, hope Mazda learned from nissan's example.

venus537 · February 2002

"if Nissan had put even a basic pathetic Honda-level interior in the car"

Hey, what's so pathetic about the accord's interior? I like it so much, I'm hoping they do very little to change the accord 03 interior.

blueguydotcom · February 2002

To each his own. I pray Mazda doesn't cheap out and put a Nissan/Honda/American car level interior in the car.

vocus · February 2002

I liked the look and feel of the interior of both my 1999 and 2001 Proteges. They had pretty nice stuff for economy cars. Not as good as the Jetta, but of course neither one of them cost over $20K either.

I hope Mazda doesn't sacrifice interior development like Nissan did though. The interior of the Altima is the cheapest thing I have seen next to a Cavalier's...

Also, there's nothing pathetic about the Accord interior, it's one of the best ergonomically. It's just boring, like the rest of the car.

storyteller · February 2002

audia8q: I think you've missed a point on this issue of concern over pricing. It isn't a matter of how good the car is. You've driven it and apparently think it is a great car. I'm happy about that. Speaking for myself at least, my concern is that I want the 6 to be a real success for Mazda, which is why I don't want to see it coming in with a price above what people will pay.

I worry that if the 6 falls flat, Mazda does too. I want both the 6 and Mazda to do well.

a_l_hubcaps · February 2002

I think the greatest indicator of pricing is simply where the car falls in relation to other Mazdas. Well, since both the 626 and Millenia will be gone for '03, the only remaining Mazda sedan will be the Protege, which tops out around $18K. It would be a little stupid of them to leave a big pricing gap between a loaded Protege and a basic 6.

-Andrew L

the_big_h · February 2002

Mazda should price the 6 in the range of 19k - 26/27k. At the low end they would compete with the base Camry/Altima, and at the high end competing with the v6 Camry/Altima/Accord, and then a sportier version to match up with the Maxima (Mazdaspeed 6?).

key would be putting in more features than their competitors at each price point, like what they've done with the Protege compared to Corolla/Civic/Sentra.

meesr · February 2002

........ guys, if the Mazda 6 were out right now, I would consider it. Ahhhhhhh, but I've learned to avoid first year cars.

So, yesterday I bought a 2002 Silverstone Passat GLS 1.8T manual with black cloth iterior. Sure the suspension isn't sports sedan quality, but nothing $600 won't fix.

$22,600 was my price before tax license ($300 over invoice).

I came THAT close to going with the Protege5, they have $750 incentives right now, but that car hopped too much for me.

So it's VW for me. I would have liked to consider Mazda, but the timing was off. I work across the street from Mazda R&D and I'm sure I will start seeing 6's in their parking lots soon.

maltb · February 2002

do you work at B.E.?

tiredofmanual · February 2002

$600 for suspension work and $500 for a chip and that Passat will be a blast to drive. Congrats.

I think that the one thing that draws me to the 6 over the Audi A4 is the hatchback. Hopefully it arrives very shortly after the sedan. But you gotta love the VW/Audi 1.8T. It is a fantastic engine.

venus537 · February 2002

now the accord's interior is at the same level as an american car. you're starting to remind me of someone else (starts with a j). but as you say, to each his own.

with mazda's affiliation with ford and the tight financial restraints their under, i see the interior being at the same level as the current mazda 626 (which will put it above the new altima). i hope to be pleasantly surprised though.

maxamillion1 · February 2002

I don't know where that came from, but the Accord's interior is one of the best designed and has some of the best materials in it's class. Just about every car magazine will say so. Now, if the Accord's interior is cheap, I guess the Camry's interior must be cheaper, especially the LE models. The plastics are soft touch, maybe not quite VW level, but then again, VW can't touch Honda reliablity wise, nor can it really touch Nissan, and especially not Toyota. But like Blue said, to each his own. I would actually like to know what's so cheap about he Accord's interior. Now the Civic and CRV have cheap looking interiors, but the Accord, I just don't think so. The Accord's interior is much better designed, and uses much better materials than the new Altima, so I guess if the Mazda 6's interior looks anything like the current Accord's, it will get nothing but praise, just like the current Accord does now.

tiredofmanual · February 2002

According to this thread over at BON Forums, Full production of the North American Mazda 6 will start at AAI in Flat Rock Michigan on October 28 of this year.

vocus · February 2002

The Accord interior is not cheap, and is one of the best for ergonomics on the market. It's just bland (like the rest of the car), but that's an opinion, not a fact.

blueguydotcom · February 2002

To my fingers, the Accord's interior is cold, hard and cheap feeling. To my eyes it may be bland too (and the ergonomics are straight-forward and uninspired), but when I'm thinking cheapness in an interior, I'm really discussing how the components feel. Do the door panels have hard plastic? Is there a center console and if so, when I tap it does it sound hollow? When I flip switches do they feel as if they'll break? In the low level Camry (the SE feels nice), all Accords and all Altimas feel very cookie cutter cheapo to me.

BTW, I could not careless how the media rates a car. For my money if the Mazda 6 has an interior on par with the Accord/Altima/Anything American then it's just not worth buying. Mazda's interior hopefully will be aimed at the Camry SE or the Passat.

ickes · February 2002

Based on your criteria for evaluating a car's interior, I don't know how you could find fault with the Accord. Every part has a solid, well crafted feel, the buttons/switches have a postive feel to them and the fabics are above average, IMO.

blueguydotcom · February 2002

But not to the level I prefer. Being 60-70% of top is still failure, IMO.

I realize what market the Accord is meant for and that millions of people don't mind paying 24k for a car with substandard interior components, but regardless of those factors, for my personal tastes the Accord's interior, along with Altima's/626's falls far short.

ateixeira · February 2002

Rich: steal an early sample for us to try, and we'll stop speculating! ;-)

I found a lot of cheap bits on the Accord, and I'll be very specific about them. It still has gooseneck hinges for the trunk, something VW and even Kia and Hyundai have addressed. The hood has a prop-rod instead of proper struts. The headliner is like cardboard with recycled peach fuzz sprayed on it, with a texture like dryer lint. See for yourself. Camry and Altima use the same material, but the Passat, Galant, and even our 1995 626 use padded cloth headliners. The carpets are thinner than a rental Taurus. Sure, it's all assembled nicely, but that does not mean the materials are nice.

So I hope Mazda targets VW for material quality, not Honda and Toyota, which have been cutting costs of late, and it shows. If Mazda reaches VW levels of material quality (i.e. well above Honda and Toyota), then maybe people won't complain so much about the prices.

-juice

tiredofmanual · February 2002

about prices once they experience the quality of the interior, but Mazda needs to get them into the showroom first!

ateixeira · February 2002

If this is a revival of Mazda, you have to start some where. It worked brilliantly for VW. It took a little longer, but it also worked for Subaru. Both have strong sales right now.

Mazda has to tip-toe between the value brands and the big boys, in terms of pricing, while offering a sportier overall package that stands out from the crowd.

-juice

venus537 · February 2002

for the life of me, i just can't figure out how you put the accord's interior at the same level as the altima/mazda 626 and BELOW a Camry. i read your criteria for assessing a car's interior and that's basically what i go by. and i'm pretty sure that i'm even more picky than you. switch gear feel is better in the accord than in the jetta. think cruise on/off switch. also, the climate control/stereo area is done better in the accord too. overall the interior of my jetta is definitely better than an accord, but it doesn't fall far short. we all have opinions and i know i'm not going to change your mind, but lets be reasonable. i was hoping and even expecting the interiors of the new altima and camry (i absolutely hate the gauges) to leap frog the accord. that didn't happen. one thing i'm fairly certain of the new accord is that the shinny black column stalks will be history.

blueguydotcom · February 2002

I'm not talking about ergonomics...I'm talking about the feel of the switchgear. In an Accord, actually every Honda product, everything feels cheap to me. I've never been in a Honda product and thought, wow, this is a nice car. I don't get a sense of quality in a Honda. I get a feeling of machined, efficient, blandness. I know from firsthand experience that the components in an Accord/Honda will last forever. Things generally don't break on them. but the cars interiors (and exteriors and drivetrain components) are so sterile and unyielding. It's like the ultimate socialist car...nothing extravagant, nothing luxurious, just built to last. Honda might as well be Japanese for yawn.

ateixeira · February 2002

To some extent I think Honda is resting on the laurels of its past performances. Now, to me at least, their cost cutting is evident. Look closely at the carpets and the headliner - not even in VW's league.

-juice

ickes_in_mn · February 2002

I liked the old non-cloth headliners in the Accord better. These remind me of some GM product. As for quality, everything does have a sense of precision machined equiptment. Perhaps you can say that a VW, Audi, or BMW has more "emotion" in their interiors and I wouldn't disagree. However, those cars all cost comparably more than the Accord and you should expect something more. Back on topic, I think Mazda needs at least a Honda interior, if not VW for the new 6.

ateixeira · February 2002

I wouldn't call the current ones "cloth", not by a long shot. More like recycled dryer lint pasted onto cardboard. Go check out a 2002 model at a dealer, it may have changed (cost-cutting) since you last saw one.

Didn't they used to have vinyl? I can see where at least that's easy to clean. Not attractive, though.

Maybe they are assembled with care, with well aligned panels and good switch gear, but I'm talking materials used. The carpets feel thin and cheap.

Mazda can better the Accord's interior. Aim for Passat, IMHO.

-juice

blueguydotcom · February 2002

I expect the same things of every car, regardless of price. If a manufacturer offers more quality for less than others, bonus. If not, I toss it aside and keep looking. If Mazda puts a class interior in the 6, they may very well woo me. If it's just a match of the Altima/Accord, then I'll pass.

venus537 · February 2002

"I'm not talking about ergonomics...I'm talking about the feel of the switchgear"

i was talking about about the feel of the switch gear. and it's so darn obvious that the switch gear feel is better (especially the climate controls) than the jettas. yes, the accord sedan is sterile looking (imo), but to extend it to its sophisticated double wishbone suspension and its engines is going over the deep end. lighten up on the arrogance will you.

blueguydotcom · February 2002

Regardless, hopefully the Mazda 6 will be more like a Passat on the inside and have the underpinnings of something like the Altima. Too bad it'll have a Ford engine though.

Arrogance? It's not arrogant to dislike a company's products. When honda makes an exciting/interesting/fun car I'll take notice. Until then, they're just a synonym for yawn.

ateixeira · February 2002

I really think Honda should not be the benchmark. That would be a big mistake. Even if the Mazda 6 matches it, people would choose Honda because of the name.

Give us zoom zoom for real. Sportier, quicker, better handling, good value. German character with Japanese quality at American prices.

Sound good?

-juice

dsm6 · February 2002

yes!

blueguydotcom · February 2002

sounds excellent!

newcar31 · February 2002

--German character with Japanese quality at American prices--

Sounds a lot like the Protege.

blueguydotcom · February 2002

Protege has German character? Don't know what slow, low-rent German cars you're getting into.

ashutoshsm · February 2002

Have you driven a Protege (ES) lately?
Its handling will put ANY Jetta to shame. Pity you don't know better!

Back on topic - i like that combination of inspirationsa nd qualities - German character, Japanese quality, American prices. Although the 3rd is probably a pipe-dream, I don't doubt that it (Mazda 6) will be priced reasonably and comptetitively, with an edge compared to Honda/Toyota!

blueguydotcom · February 2002

And the handling is astounding on the Protege ES. As I told someone else, you can always tighten up handling cheap on a car (like the wobbly, piggish handling on the fat Jetta), but adding power to an engine is cost prohibitive. Too bad the Protege's slow and the interior is typical Japanese bland/cheap. But good grief does it corner. I hope that portion of the Mazda DNA gets into the 6. I pray that Mazda/Japanese style interior components and Mazda's notoriously underpowered engines (save for the last gen RX's turbo) don't get into the 6.

As someone else posted, ideally the 6 will have Japanese reliability, German character and American (or Japanese) prices.

newcar31 · February 2002

Car and Driver said that the Protege ES has "BMW verve for less than half the price". Road & Track said that the Protege ES does "a nice BMW 2002 impression". That is what I meant by "German Character". What these magazines were getting at was that the Protege has a vault- like structure and excellent handling, not a fancy interior and a powerful engine (no car in this price class can give you that). Point me to a car that has a fancy interior, is fast, handles excellent, has an excellent track record, and is $15K and I'm there. If a fancy interior and a powerful engine is what makes a car possess "German Character" then wouldn't the Lexus LS 430 qualify? What about the new Caddy STS?

ateixeira · February 2002

The MP3 was close, but the Protoge needs more than 130hp. Handling is fine, I liked the P5 wagon a lot.

-juice

vocus · February 2002

I can definitely say the Protege has less body lean as the Jetta, but the Jetta (well at least mine, with 17-inch tires and sport suspension) has better grip. Now if Mazda would just come on and introduce that turbo engine...

newcar31 · February 2002

I would bet that a stock Protege ES would tear your Jetta up on a tight road course.

the_big_h · February 2002

sounds like a challenge vocus! Wanna set up a Jetta vs. Protege duel?

better yet, to 'even out' the competition a bit more pricing-wise, make it a MP3 vs. Jetta duel!

and to stay on topic, wow Mazda 6!

blueguydotcom · February 2002

Before Pat gets in here we better at least try to keep some semblance of mentioning the 6 in our posts.

I want it all in every car. I hope the 6 comes close. I love the exterior lines and as I've said before I'm a fan of Mazda. My family has owned several Mazdas, mostly Miatas and those cars are a blast to drive. I believe in Mazda's zoom-zoom (guess I'm brainwashed by the marketing - although I don't watch TV, so go figure).

I'm pretty confident the exterior and handling of the 6 will be top notch. I'm only worried about the interior (I fear another Altima-like letdown) and the powerplant (Ford...eek!).

Consider an MPS version too. I read some stuff about a lowered, supercharged Tribute with 17s and 275HP. Maybe they'll do the same with the 6. Slap on some 17s and get that 6 up near 300 horses.

ambull · February 2002

I saw a souped-up Tribute at last year's KC auto show. I didn't even recognize it - I couldn't figure out what Mazda model was a station wagon!

As far as the Ford Duratech engine goes, I don't hear any Lincoln LS owners complaining about it on their forum. I've driven the 2.5 ltr in the Contour and found it to be okay, so I'm not worried about the engine.

What might bother me is a comment someone above made about the interior not being open-feeling or something like that. But hopefully I'll see for myself at our car show in March.

newcar31 · February 2002

An MP3 vs. a Jetta on a road couse wouldn't be fair to the Jetta.

blueguydotcom · February 2002

You and the Jetta zealots should just all get together and finish this Mad Max style. They're just cars and cheapo econo-box throw-away cars at that.

newcar31 · February 2002

Yeah, they are just cars, they are econo-cars, but I wouldn't call them "throw-away" cars. A throw-away car would be a Chevy Cavalier (the disposable Bic razor of automobiles) or an 88' Hyundai.

Mazda6 Sedan

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