Mazda6 Sedan

mazda6s · January 2003

markjenn is correct.

Yes, I'm a pilot (maybe Mark is too).

clemulus · January 2003

I finally found a dealer that would offer me S-Plan pricing. It only took a month or so but it will save me $3,000. Fully loaded for $23,842.

dinu01 · January 2003

I like them on the 6 - especially since it has an extra light.

There are some cars that look stupid with spoilers like the A4, A6, A8, Acura RL, Benzes and all BMWs, but for most cars, a spoiler with led helps.

Dinu

pat · January 2003

Rather than changing the name, let's just calm down.

Folks, some of you are way out of bounds, in choice of language and choice of phrasing.

If you can't find a way to present your message without flaming another discussion member, you must not post it at all.

Is there any part of "If you wish to take issue with the statements of other Town Hall members or Edmunds.com staff, please engage in healthy, mature debate and not immature behavior or name-calling. Civility and respect underlie the success of an on-line community such as Town Hall." (a direct quote from your Membership Agreement) that I can clarify for any of you?

If so, address me off-line.

In any case, please knock off the arguing and the unnecessary gutter references.

Thank you.

bigzheng17 · January 2003

Mark probably is not a pilot, but a airplane engineer, just look at his email address.

ruski · January 2003

At least no one started putting trimmers on those wings yet.

choe13 · January 2003

Let me ask you guys something. Mazda instead of using the duratec for its v6, wouldn't have been awsome if they refined the 2.3 supercharged engine from the millenia, and placed on the 6??

Though some may say it is expensive to fix and also would have added extra cost to the m6s(wants to be known as value priced), i can't see how they could not have refined it, made it alot more reliable, i mean its already built, just needs a touch up, and mass produced it(to save cost). This also would not hurt millenia s sales, because frankly, that car is pretty much discontinued anyways.

I personally love the supercharged feel(cleanest pull, needs only use with small engine(good gas consumption )) and alot of cars are using this form of engine boosting technology again, like mini cooper s, instead of a pure v6, which is alot heavier, hurting the cars driving dynamics.

I think instead of the ford duratec, no matter much additions, and twisting mazda could do to it, its still a ford, and their own 2.3 supercharge would have been a better choice to do the twisting with. This would have brought mazda 6s over the edge.

what do you guys think??

vadp · January 2003

We will see many versions of the 2.3L in many other cars.
No doubt Ford will put in the next Focus SVT (in a super or turbocharged form), next gen Focus, Mazda 3 and posibly some entry level Volvo.
It's just the beginning.

maltb · January 2003

is an expensive engine to produce and would have only brought the price of the 6 higher.

maltb · January 2003

he's talking about the 2.3 v-6 from the millenia, not the 2.3 4cyl which will start seeing alot of use.

vadp · January 2003

I just wanted to point out that the 2.3L is an advanced, tough, higly tunable engine which is much easier(cheaper) to produce or make it meet the emission regulations than the Miller cycle one.

ambull · January 2003

Some additional reasons for not using the Miller cycle engine:
1. Since it has a V6 with a supercharger, it probably weighs more than the Duratec V6. The 6s weighs 200 lbs more than the 6i, but part of that weight is additional equipment, so the engine may weigh only around 100 pounds more, which is pretty light.
2. The Miller-cycle V6 uses premium gas and doesn't produce as much horsepower as the Duratec.

I think the engine choices Mazda made were good ones.

choe13 · January 2003

i have to disagree with you. 3.0 L duratec - 2.3 L miller = .7 L to spare. Now a supercharger only eats up a equivilant of .3-.5 L from my understanding, so you do the math 2.3 + .5 = 2.8L compared to 3.0L. No matter what this shows the 2.3 v6 supercharged engine is lighter than the 3.0 duratec.

some my think .2 difference is not good enough to enhance driving dynamics?? but at least the 2.3L supercharge is alot more sophisticated, revs better, and has that silk smooth feel like the honda's one in contrast to the bland fords.

Also like i have stated this engine has been built already, why couldn't they have twisted it and added some modern pieces(timing chain), to be more economic(so it will be able to use regular gas)durable and up to date with todays kind of engines?. With all that effort to enhance the fords duratec, i really can't understand why that effort could have not have been directed instead to the 2.3L supercharged engine. I guess there has to be other real reasons, because the engineers, marketers can't be that stupid.

Regrading pricing, i would def pay 500-700 dollars more for a refined 2.3L supercharged engine than a duratec anyday. I think they seriously lost quite a bit of v6 customers using the duratec.

other opinions??

kenoka · January 2003

Or even better, developed a 2.5 or 2.6 liter Miller Cycle V6. That would have gotten better power numbers than the 3.0 AND better fuel economy. Damn those emissions!

ambull · January 2003

Okay, I have several points to make. First off, the 3.0 liter Duratec uses the same block as the 2.5 liter Duratec, so it's essentially no heavier, so your argument that weight is proportional to displacement is incorrect. A bigger bored engine using the same block should actually be lighter, because some extra metal that was in the in the block of the smaller bored engine has been removed.
The Miller cycle engine was built already, but so was the Duratec. I'm sure it's more cost-efficient to drop the Miller cyle engine. All the effort to develop the Duratec has been done before in the Lincoln LS V6 and the Jaguar, so I'm sure it was easier for Mazda to do something similar.
Maybe you missed the discussion a few days ago when it was pointed out that the Duratec was designed with input from Cosworth and Porsche...you don't get much better than that! Nothing wrong with the Duratec, but compared to the incredible new Honda V6 engine, everything looks second-rate.

charlie_cr · January 2003

Hi there. Is there a good online place that describes the proper care for leather seats in your car? Thanks for the help!
---
BTW I'm getting the 6, but here in Central America the configurations are different from the 'package approach'. The one I'm getting is white sedan configuration, engine 2.0 gasoline, has leather, manual tranny, ABS/TCS/EBD, all airbags, 16" Alloy Wheels, auto wheater control, and the other regular stuff... grand total is $24,000 with a reasonable discount, which does not sound bad considering that we have sales taxes on a whooping 13%!.

mica88 · January 2003

How soon before the navigation system will be available? Although the 6s in Europe has a regular navi system, can the US expect a voice activated system like the one in the 03 Accord?

choe13 · January 2003

i know it was designed by porche. But porche won't design for a "porche" engine, they will desing them whatever ford could afford to give them. Ford didn't put heavy emphasis on sophistication rather than mass production of the ecotec/duractec.

Ford duratec is just "fine" like you implied. but thats just what american products are usualy just "fine", not exceptional or incredible.

I still think mazda chose the wrong route to cut expenses and use the multi car purpose duratec, and either should have rejuvatned the 2.3L miller to the specifics of the mazda 6, or created a v6 version of their v4 banger(better than average).

I have an advice to anyone who wants to get a v6 mazda 6. Well if you are a v6 kind of guy(smooth ride= 32 valves) than you just have to try to like the duratec and live with it. But if speed is the main objective, i encourage you to get the 2.3 L v4 for now, with the sports/luxury package(v6 interior/exterior ammenities), and in a couple of months purchase either a turbocharger or supercharger kit made specifically for mazda 6, miatas, protoges.

It will not only not be better than the duratec, but also on par with the hondas, altimas in terms of speed(cleaner revving from the bottom till the needle hits the 6-7 rpm mark), safe to install(since kit is specifically designed for mazdas) for less than two thousand dollar(which is the difference betweem a 6s and a 6i anyways)

I would be quite content with the with the v4(0-60 less than 8 seconds is good enough for me) but if i wanted a v6 like power and clean pull effect, i would rather add on the supercharged kit than to settle with the duratec(fords engines cause too many recalls). Its a little more work or several visits to a certified aftermarket mazda mechanic, but worth it, in the long run.

maltb · January 2003

You expect an aftermarket turbo to be more reliable than a Duratech? You can move mountains with faith like that.

fowler3 · January 2003

OK, Maltb, I get it. Yes, the "tabs" that pop out of the wings do reduce lift which helps the plane to drop through the ground effect barrier.

I was a pilot, too, many years ago. On hot summer days flying light airplanes, the ground effect was like surfing on the bottoms of the wings. Sometimes not able to land the plane, had to go around and fly it onto the ground. Landing into high wind and have the plane roll backwards as the wheels touched the ground was another delightful surprise.

fowler3

newcar31 · January 2003

"whatever ford could afford to give them."

Dude, Ford could buy and sell Porsche.

choe13 · January 2003

"You expect an aftermarket turbo to be more reliable than a Duratech? You can move mountains with faith like that."

do you know how many recalls ford cars get for their engine haulting defects?? i rahter not die, while driving on the highway. In that case, yes it would be much reliable to get a supercharge kit designed for the 2.3L v4 banger than to get an engine made by ford.

newcar31 · January 2003

"V4", it's making my eyes hurt.

fowler3 · January 2003

are expensive to buy, even more expensive to repair. The less engine add-ons the better for most buyers. Not everybody goes to the dealer for service.

fowler3

maltb · January 2003

Not meaning any disrespect, but I'm not sure you are familiar with the Duratech. Check out Contour.org. About the only issue the duratech ever faced was plasitc water pump impeller that has since been fixed.

choe13 · January 2003

"whatever ford could afford to give them."

-Dude, Ford could buy and sell Porsche-

No matter how rich how they are, they are still a business. They are not going to invest several millions on a v6 engine, and also several millions to mass produce it; only one or the other to keep prices low for their end buyer. Mass production was more important, since they have to put this engine on several different car models(not just ford). Needless to say, exceptional quality was compromised.

choe13 · January 2003

i'm not offended or anything, we are all mazda fans here. But even though that plastic component has been fixed, the one thing that will turn off a car buyer more than anything else, is engine(heart of car)problems, especially when it occurs with just 10k. And the duratech caused some major haults, on the highway with people actually dying. To me this is unforgivable, i just can't trust their engines. And honestly i don't know how anyone else could.

johnclineii · January 2003

Are you just making up your facts as you go along? Proof, please, for the deaths caused by Duratec engines halting that caused deaths? In the US, the trial attorneys would be all over this. Where did you get your 'facts?'

dinu01 · January 2003

I usually agree with you, but not on this one.

As newcar31 said, there is no V4 engine, but you can have an I4 or a V6 in a Mazda 6. I've never heard of a V4 - this is what people that "think" they know cars say, not those that actually KNOW. I'm sure you fall in the later category (or like me are trying to learn more car-related things everyday), so please, let's all say now "I4"

Now on the subject of turbos -vs- Duratecs. I'm not a Ford fan (or domestics) by any means, but I think this engine is not bad. A turbo will cost you more in the long run if you install it aftermarket - from the factory it should be better b/c other components NEED to be beefed-up. You don't just throw a turbo and hope for the best. See what they've done to the MazdaSpeed3 - they didn't just drop a turbo, but went ahead and strenghtened many other drivetrain components.

In the end, I would still get the I4 from Mazda, stock as it is.

Dinu

windowphobe6 · January 2003

Two of them together make Volkswagen's W-8.

Oldsmobile supposedly was playing around with a V-5 (!) back in the 80s, but nothing ever came close to production.

edmund2460 · January 2003

I think Nasser took care of the cash hoard they had a few years ago. Given that, and the fact that they have to borrow at a very high premium to the market given their risky bond ratings, I doubt they will be buying any assets any time soon.

choe13 · January 2003

please don't take everything anyone says too literal, sometimes there are spelling mistakes other times its just an honest mistake in wording. If you know what they mean, than theres no point to put them down about a silly mistake like that. V4 = I4. I know a 4 cylinder can't be configured in v shape.

Onto the topic. You have a good point about adding a turbocharge kit, and that it needs alot of care and "catalysts" to do a proper transplant onto the car. But like i said, there are readily kits availble designed for the mazda cars, and certified mazda mechanics that will install it in for you for a fee. I could admit to be wrong about being less than 2 thousand dollars for part +labour, but i still believe its well worth it(2k-3k), compared to owning a duratec.

One person dying because of haulted duratec engine while in the highway, is something i remember reading on a car newsletter some time ago. And it doesn't seem too unbelievable, for example driving on the highway at 120, and all of your sudden your engine haults, causing rapid speed lose, then bang! a truck rams you from the back and you can imagine what happens after. If that doesn't cause death, it will certainly cause life threatning injuries.

the_big_h · January 2003

when Ford wanted to design a 2.5L V6 for its Contour/Mondeo sedan, they asked (read: they PAID $$$) for the help of Porsche and Cosworth. Thus born the Duratec engine...

I would feel pretty comfortable driving a Porsche/Cosworth designed engine...

groovypippin · January 2003

A little while back, I indicated that Mazda reps would be dropping by soon with pictures of the new 2004 Mazda3.

They did.

I'm freakin' looking at it right now!!!!!!!! I have a front 3/4 and side shot of both the sedan and 5-foor.

I don't have a scanner, so I can't post anything tonight, (as a matter of fact, I haven't even decided if I will post it - I don't want to get myself or anyone else in trouble) but I have left a pretty detailed description in both the Proege and P5 forum.

Mazda6 lovers will really love the new Mazda3.

newcar31 · January 2003

edmund2460--I was just making a point. What might be a huge expense for Porsche is just a drop in the bucket for Ford.

choe--There is such a thing as a V4. Some old Saabs had them, however almost all 4 cyls are inline.

ncjudge · January 2003

On the Duratec, I've got 90K on the 2.5L Duratec in my SVT Contour and the only problem I've had was the aforementioned plastic impeller on the water pump breaking up last week. Great performance and very good reliability in my experience. I'm not at all worried about the 3.0 V6 in the Mazda.

Now the Ford 3.8 V6 is a different story...

mazda6s · January 2003

An interesting engineering "experiment", and a curious part of Mazda history, once the Millenia gone.

ambull · January 2003

Just for the record, there has been production of a V4 engine. In 1967, Saab replaced their 2-cycle 3-cylinder Shrike engine with a V4 designed by Ford of Germany, per the link below. It was used in the Saab 95, 96 and Sonett.

http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/models/1967/pr1.html

dinu01 · January 2003

link about Saab's V4 engine. Why didn't they make an I4? A V4 seems awkward. But we know those Swedes can be like that sometimes: the ignition key on the floor, instead of it next to the steering wheel comes to mind.

Dinu

audia8q · January 2003

Ford is currently sitting with 30-35 billion in cash.

also for everyone interested in sepang green...There will be a small number (2%) coming off the line this month and next month.

rich

ambull · January 2003

In 1897, Mors, of France, produced the first V4 engine. I found another link which said that Ford still sells their V4 for industrial use.
Okay, that's it for V4's from me, before I get into trouble.

doying5 · January 2003

Lest ye forget...
The Mazda V6 started with only the block The very basics and then the conglomerate of engineers took it from there. There are no other "Ford" components. On this car.

gee35coupe · January 2003

More than any other make.

capitano · January 2003

what does money per car mean?

oh, does Ford know what people think of their product?

gerstl · January 2003

i would like to see the 6s in sepang green which wont be out till early march. do ford or mazda have close colors? found spruce green (taurus)and sage green (mpv). cant tell from coputer screen

newcar31 · January 2003

What about all of the accesories on the engine? Are those the same as what would be on the regular Duratec?

ambull · January 2003

In another discussion, stretchsje posted the following Jan 09, 2003 (01:20 am), which I thought was noteworthy:
"For those who dismiss FWD-drive a new Mazda6. I have a 4cyl M6, and the thing just won't understeer. It's pretty neat, although I still dream of fishtailing. I almost bought a used MR2 :-)"

ruski · January 2003

do you mean this?

http://www.hydrofoils.org/Egal/egal.html

blueguydotcom · January 2003

Last I heard...Ford was money per car More than any other make.

Actually, that's Porsche, the most profitable car company around based on per car averages.

Here's a story about their profits this year... http://www.auto.com/industry/iwiri5_20021205.htm

jaclaz · January 2003

I saw this beast years ago and I just love a 1,000 troop carrier flying over the waves at 300 mph just under the radar headed for Long Beach, CA....

If they could only make cars and boats this interesting?

Thanks for publishing this PIC! It's great!

Watch out here comes PAT, we're really off topic now, he's gonna get MAD, he's not going to let us play anymore.... He's gonna say we're disruptive and annoying those who just need to talk about spoilers.... MMMmmmm.

Sorry PAT...

Mazda6 Sedan

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