Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

ffsteve · April 2003

Dave,
Most electronics have capacitors on the input circuits for filtering, they can store enough power to keep up some memory circuits even in the absence of a conventional power source due to the ultra low requirements. Hence the common instruction to wait 30 minutes after disconnecting the battery. But the writer is saying that another load on the system, such as the brake lights, will cause the caps to give up their stored charge in a hurry.

I can't confirm its true for the Subaru, but it's highly likely.

Steve

hypov · April 2003

thanks Steve

-Dave

ateixeira · April 2003

Good suggestion, I'll note it down.

Michael: I posted a response in another topic, since you also asked there.

-juice

kens · April 2003

Steve,

I read about that trick over at NAISOC too, but I think it only works for turboed vehicles. The ECU in our N/A engines can only retard timing to avoid knock, IIRC.

Ken

mrlamontsmith · April 2003

hello everybody, i am also the unhappy owner of an outback with a blown head gasket. it is a 1998 with 129000 miles. unfortunately there was never any smell or smoke and the temp gage went AWOL. my mechanic found an engine with 37000 miles (estimates about $2700 for replacement).

i am so bummed. i had an '85 GL wagon that was amazing. it had 240000 miles when i hit a deer at about 85 mph and totalled it. may she rest in peace. as for my outback, it is going straight to the auction block. i thought that i would own subarus for the rest of my life. maybe not.

hypov · April 2003

Wow... that's 103000 miles more than my '98 OB... but I'm only a weekend leisure driver.

Look on the bright side. 129000 miles, that works out to about $0.20 to a mile over 5 years.
Should have lasted as long as your 240000 miles '85 GL, but $0.20/miles is still money well spent

-Dave

ateixeira · April 2003

129k is a lot.

Personally, I've never taken any car I've ever owned that far. I got 86k out of a Datsun and sold it with a slipping clutch. About the same out of a Sprint. 107k out of my Escort GT before it was totalled, but it's clutch was going out too.

Any how, bummer. Did the engine overheat and blow up?

-juice

mrlamontsmith · April 2003

129K is NOT a lot. This is the 5th car that I have owned and all of the others have lasted well over 200K with minimal maintenance and no head gasket failures. Particularly in the case of a head gasket. This is old technology, and head gaskets should not fail at less than 400K unless there are other extreme circumstances. Pretty much everybody that I know owns cars with more than 200K miles with minimal repairs.

Also, i bought the car used last fall and I have only put about 5K miles on it, so all things considered it has probably cost me about 2 bucks a mile. I could probably hire a taxi for that much. Also, I know the person who owned it before and probably 95% of the miles were highway miles and the car was maintained very well.

I've looked on the google subaru newsgroup, as well as this one, I've called several mechanics, talked to several other people who have owned outbacks and it is pretty phenomenal how many outbacks are suffering this problem.

I was driving on a remote highway, it was cold and snowing. i pulled over to look at a map and my engine started knocking. I started driving again and within 30 seconds noticed that my temp gage was above 'H'. The rest is pretty much history. It didn't seize up or anything, but for the same amount of money I figured that I should just get a new engine.

outback_97 · April 2003

Sorry to hear about that. Every time I hear about head gasket problems on the 2.5l DOHC I cringe. We just sold our '89 GL w/ only 93000 miles on it, and my '97 has 95000 miles... D'OH! (Crosses fingers again while watching temp gauge)

When you say the temp gauge "went AWOL", could you clarify? Do you mean it gave you no indication there was a problem, or it just plain didn't work? I tend to watch mine religiously due to this known problem, but maybe that's no help.

I can't speak for all owners obviously, but I think the great disappointment in this failure even at 100K+ miles is due to the fact that many OB owners (especially the '96-'99) previously owned these older GL's that just kept going (at least engine-wise). Our expectations of the brand are high. If it was something less expensive like a water pump, alternator, cv joints, etc. that failed, that's one thing, but when the hg goes, it's big $$$. And, if things overheat and get warped, even bigger $$$.

utahsteve

edit: didn't see post 1380 before I posted this.

paisan · April 2003

Interesting, I'd be interested in what cars you owned (5 apparently) that lasted over 200K miles on regular scheduled maintenance.

Must have owned a bunch of Hondas from the 80s would be my guess.

-mike

ateixeira · April 2003

There are probably over a million of the 2.5l engines on the road, so surely you're going to find a few bad apples in that huge batch.

The number affected was 8% according to one survey, and mostly those were leaky gaskets, not complete failures like yours.

Any how, call 800-SUBARU3 just to open up a case. They may try to help out financially in some way, it's worth asking.

-juice

mrlamontsmith · April 2003

referring to outback_97's question, the temp gage showed that it was overheating. my father instilled the "look at your gages every couple minutes" philosophy in me at a young age. i probably looked at the temp gage within 10 minutes before i pulled over to look at the map and it was fine. i stopped for probably 5 minutes, so i imagine within about 10 to 20 minutes she was pretty hot.

the other 4 cars that i have owned:

1988 toyota corolla: currently has about 240K miles, i bought it when it had about 138K miles. i had to put in a new alternator, i chose to replace the timing belt at 180K, tonight she is going to go in for a brake job. she has had 2 tune-ups (spark plugs, spark plug wires, etc.)

1985 subaru GL wagon: bought it at 125K miles, totalled it in a auto/deer colision at about 240K. In that time period she had a timing belt change, replaced water pump and clutch (my girlfriend rides the clutch REAL bad). my best friend drove it head on into a tree at about 15 mph and the radiator miraculously survived. a lot of hard miles on skiing and climbing trips and she never let me down.

1984 Toyota pickup: bought at 150K sold to friend at about 220K. i don't remember if i ever replace anything on this beast. my friend totalled it within 6 months.

1986 Honda Civic: bought at 120K, sold it at 210K to same friend as above and I think he sold it a couple years later.

I drive about 50K a year for work and play, so I can't really afford to lease a car or buy a new one. I had bought the outback for my girlfriend and we used it as a weekend car. we just split up and she couldn't afford to keep it, so i got it. i figured it would be my weekend car for the next 10years.

Also, regarding the 8% failure rate, that is completely unacceptable. Especially considering that a head gasket should be at least a 3 sigma component, and subaru prides themselves on their quality management program. i've read that the outbacks are made in america, that might partially explain the problem. thanks everybody for the support and not flaming me for my complaining. i'm just really sad.

ateixeira · April 2003

One thing about those mid-80s japanese cars, they were much simpler than cars today. They also didn't have ODBII back then, not even ODBI. Early Miatas are sought after because of this. New ones are more finicky with emissions regs.

Even so, mine has just 41k miles. My clutch slave cylinder is leaking, though that's a cheap fix. The valves are a bit loud. It runs fine, but I'll be happy to get 129k out of it.

Do you know if it's the gaskets? If so, you could put her back together, assuming the valves are OK, and use a part number from more recent 2.5l engines (say, 2003). I have not seen any gasket failures from 2002-2003 vehicles out of the ones I've seen reported.

We're sad to see a Subie go to the grave, too. I'd love to joing the 1/4 million mile club.

-juice

nygreg · April 2003

with Lamont. As you know, my hg went at 33K miles. Perhaps it's the last I will "hear" of this. However, a powertrain should go at least 200k miles with normal maintenance. I could see a water pump at 120k or CV joints at 150K, but not a head gasket. I love my OB and plan to keep it as long as possible, keeping one eye on the hg. If the car doesn't give me any major problems in the future, a new Subaru will probably be in my future.

Greg

paisan · April 2003

As I suspected.

All mid-80s era Japanese cars.

Nuff said. They don't make them like that anymore, period end of story. If you believe ANY car produced today will last as long, i've got a bridge to sell you real cheap. You are living in a totally different era!

-mike

idahodoug · April 2003

I agree that a car/truck should last into the 200k+ range if driven well and maintained properly. In our family, we all learned vehicle maintenance from Dad, who always did his own work (still does in his 70s), uses synthetic lubes, and sticks with factory parts with few exceptions. We all get 150k plus out of our vehicles before selling them and I've never heard of a mechanical failure among all 6 of us kids and our families as a result. I'll be surprised if my '97 Legacy doesn't get to 250k, though I doubt I'll have it that long since I just turned over 34k (bought last year from rancher with only 21k on it).

I think today's cars are more durable than the mid 80s cars due to advances in everything from assembly technique to metallurgy. I think what's changed is that the internet makes us all aware of failures we previously were ignorant of. We all participate in these boards, and generally the things of interest involve failures. Indeed, these are magnets for people who have problems to get on and rant. So, I think the profile of the failures has been raised in the eyes of the typical motorist as opposed to their being more absolute failures.

Interestingly, in a multi year test of the most durable cars in the world at GM during the 80s, a 1987 Honda Prelude outlasted them all - from Mercedes S class to Caprice Taxi Cab. This despite having the crap beat out of it by the test drivers who were - you guessed it - Japanese hating UAW members.

IdahoDoug

nygreg · April 2003

Well said.

ateixeira · April 2003

Yes indeed.

Here's an example. The 1998 CR-V was one of the very best cars in the CR survey this year. So you could expect those to last 300k miles with zero problems, right?

Well, read up here on Edmunds, and you'll find that hard to believe. They even nick-named the most common complaint, "PTTR", for pull to the right. Alignment seems to be real tricky. You'll find complaints of clunky RT4WD engagement, driveline noises, overall noise levels, shifters that go past "D" when you shift, poor tires, lack of passing power, check engine lights, etc.

You'd come out thinking it was a horrible car, but not so, it's still among the best in terms of reliability.

People that are not happy are far more likely to speak up, seek out a forum like this one.

-juice

nygreg · April 2003

I think Toyota and Honda forums are magnets for all types of "hits". I don't cruise the Sienna forum that much because of the trolls, people with unreasonable expectations, etc.

Greg

ateixeira · April 2003

Too bad. :-(

-juice

nygreg · April 2003

Cross rotated the Sport A2s yesterday. It did reduce the noise somewhat (still there). We'll see as they were a little in their new positions.

Also, think the hot spots / warpage on my brakes are back. Ughh, 3rd time. Maybe I'll just install Brembo brakes.

Greg

otis123 · April 2003

Slow down on Taconic, SpeedRacer. Braking too hard on those exit ramps! LOL!

BTW, my 41K miles black bean looks good dirty or not (well, definitely better not...)...

My front rotors/pads now have 20K miles and no repeat of hot spots/warping. Subaru needs to press their suppliers on quality...

Remote start died this week :-(

Ralph

nygreg · April 2003

we are easy on the brakes. In fact, my wife drives the car most of the time now (she mentioned this last night when I gave her the Sienna so I could take the OB in for inspection/tire rotation). She wants the OB all the time now.... ;(

I'll wait another month or so to make sure and then bring it in. If they fix it again without charging me, I will praise this dealer to all.

Greg

P.S. That's WEAR not WERE! Time for a cup of coffee.

idahodoug · April 2003

I agree they are magnets for complainers. The problem stems not so much from the number of issues that crop up, but from the difference between EXPECTATIONS and reality. Many people in their first Asian vehicle expect that nothing will go wrong and go nuts over a broken door lock. They've heard so much about it as they trundled along in their Buicks and Plymouths that when they finally take a deep breath and buy their first Japanese car they expect the moon. On the other hand, Buick and Plymouth drivers have been conditioned over decades of experience that if the engine throws a rod at 12,000 miles it's not a surprise.

Lifelong Asian vehicle buyers have been conditioned to have nearly zero failures and also go nuts over the same power lock failure, so the deck's stacked against the Asian mfrs in terms of complaint volume when one happens (rare).

We used to study this phenomenon and it led to all kinds of humorous market segmentation titles that decorum prevents mentioning here. Jaguar owners were the most comical. A typical owner would rate their cars as "excellent" in terms of reliability after 24 months of ownerships. Then we'd cross ref their VIN with service surveys and discover they'd had the diff bearings fail, 3 "no starts", a power steering failure, and the rear power windows were not working over this same time period. People don't like to admit they've bought a piece of junk in surveys. We switched to just using the reported absolute number of failures per 100 vehicles after that. Somewhere, I have saved a list of every single nameplate in the entire US market (something north of 250) ranked by this simple but telling measure. No domestic vehicle was in the top third and no Japanese vehicle was in the bottom third....

IdahoDoug

gericho · April 2003

I am looking at a 1995 Legacy AWD wagon with 80K miles. When turning from a stopped position, such as pulling out of a parking space, the power steering is quite heavy. It seems normal at driving speeds. Is this an expected characteristic of the vehicle? There is no PS noise and the fluid is full. I don't have access to a similar Subaru to compare the steering.

idahodoug · April 2003

I have experience with two models identical to this one. Steering is normal and no higher effort at idle is noted. I'd suspect the tires are too low or your current car (likely a domestic) has super light isolated power steering. Should be at 30psi, BTW.

IdahoDoug

dcm61 · April 2003

Is the '95 Legacy AWD wagon an automatic?

If so, does the steering actually feel like the AWD system is binding? If it's binding, the car may have a problem with the transfer clutch, duty-C soleniod or have a groove worn in the extension housing. I had the binding problem in my '96 Legacy Outback automatic.

It could also be caused by tires that are mismatched or unevenly worn.

DaveM

fibber2 · April 2003

The other day I received a 'magazine like' publication from Tire Rack. There was a 5-6 page section on brake components and upgrades, including rotors. Let me know if you want to borrow it. I would suspect that you can find most of the same info, including specific vehicle applications on their web site.

Steve

nygreg · April 2003

I received the same brochure. That is where I got the idea. Unfortunately, I went on the site and they do not list OEM style rotors for the OB.

I just purchased Yokohamas from Tirerack for my Sienna. Nice tires.

Greg

amsbear · April 2003

Crew,

  Can anyone give me some diagnosis advice on how to troubleshoot my A/C. It is blowing ambient temperature air out of the vents when I have the A/C button activated and the lever fully to the cold side.

  The fuse in the fuse box in the engine compartment looks good but I don't know how to test the relays. (Side question: Why are there 4 relays).

  With the engine running and the A/C turned on, I popped the hood and the compressor was not engaged. The belt is fine and turning the compressor, but the clutch is not engaged.

  Any ideas?

Thanks in advance,

Alan
98 OBW Ltd

nygreg · April 2003

I had a car once that would not engage due to a sensor being tripped by low freon. Not sure if Subaru has such a sensor. Can you check voltage at the clutch connection?

Greg

gericho · April 2003

Tires were underinflated by 5 and 10 psi in front. Proper pressures resolved my concern about the heavy steering, which now feels normal. This 95 checked out fine mechanically and I bought it this evening.

idahodoug · April 2003

Congrats on the Sube! If you have any questions on changing out fluids and the other things many people do when they get a preowned vehicle - let me know. I have done everything on a 96 and 97 which are identical to yours.

On the A/C - the most likely scenario is the low freon switch has activated to protect your expensive compressor. Your most productive move would be to have the system recharged for around $80 as it should have this done by now anyhow. If it turns out to be something else (unlikely), at least you've gotten this service out of the way.

IdahoDoug

casecom2 · April 2003

Subaru of America on Tuesday announced a voluntary recall of Legacy and Outback wagons and sedans from model years 2000, 2001 and 2002 (plus a handful of 2003 Bajas) because of possible corrosion in the rear suspension.

Subaru said some rear suspension components were manufactured with poor paint quality, resulting in possible corrosion from road salts. The recall is for cars only in the "salt belt" states in the Midwest, Northeast and mid-Atlantic regions of the United States.

An estimated 170,000 cars are affected, manufactured from May 1, 1999, to April 30, 2002. Owners will be notified in late June and early July. The affected components will be inspected and rustproofed free of charge.

No accidents or injuries have been reported; the problem was found in Subaru's quality assurance testing.

paisan · April 2003

As they had on the front of the legacies for 97-99. Maybe they should get a different get a different paint company!!!

-mike

K9Leader · April 2003

My 2000 OB wagon with 34K miles is in the shop today to have the brakes checked. A couple of weeks ago it started a ringing/squealing type of sound from somewhere at the rear of the car. It is a rotational sound - something is rubbing/hitting something that is turning -- but is intermittent and is during regular driving (i.e., not when the brakes are being applied). Applying the brakes will temporarily stop the sound. There is also occasional brake squeal when the brakes are applied.

The front pads were replaced and the front rotors turned within the past few months (by the previous owner) but it appears nothing was done to the rears. My question: what is the sound that the pads make as the wear warning? Is it a ringing/squealing sound? Or is it a groaning or grinding? Or something else?

--K9Leader

amsbear · April 2003

Thanks for all your help / suggestions. I now have an appointment with my local dealer to check it out plus a couple of other maintenance items.

Does my subie know that I just got my first SubaruBucks $100 certificate and wants some TLC now??? I know there are numerous sensors in these vehicles but I don't think that they have documented the "Full Wallet Sensor" in my Haynes manual

Alan
98 OBW Ltd

ateixeira · April 2003

Cool, glad it was just tire pressures, gericho.

LOL paisan, I remember that recall. Wonder if our 2002 L is affected.

-juice

fibber2 · April 2003

I have not heard a Subi, but on past cars, the sensor sounded a bit like finger nails on a chalk board. Attached to the anti-rattle clip is a small tab of metal that will begin contacting the rotor at about 15% pad remaining. In the beginning, the contact is intermittant with the pads in the 'relaxed' condition. Turns put some side loading on the brake components, so will often make the sensors touch. Applying the brakes should make the sensor sound more evident, but I have actually heard some that were more quiet with the brakes applied than with them off. Probably has to do with how the spring clips were installed and whether the application of brakes dampens the vibration of the spring that helps to make the audible sound.

If you had the brakes recently serviced, it is more likely that the pads and backing shims are just vibrating slightly and making the ruckus. Sometimes some backing grease will help to quell the movement that induces the sounds. But get them checked anyhow to be sure....

Steve

K9Leader · May 2003

Had the rear brake pads replaced with ceramics, and the rotors turned. Yes, I've seen the comments on the rotors being surface hardened and shouldn't be turned or they will wear faster, but isn't that the case with all rotors? Don't they all wear faster with each machining? It was a choice between (1) machining the old ones now and put new ones on in 8 or 10 or 12 or 15K miles or (2) put new ones on now. These are the rears so I decided to stick with the old ones. The front rotors were turned (and front pads replaced, but not with ceramics) just before I bought the car six weeks ago. Had I needed to do all four brakes, I would have been more likely to go for new rotors and ceramics all around. That is what I will do next time in 8 or 10 or 12 or 15K miles.

There is still some occasional braking squeal, but very minor, and does appear to be coming from the fronts, which are not ceramics, so will just have to be lived with until the next brake job. The ringing/whistling sound while driving is still there but much less frequent -- before it was maybe 30% of the time, and now it is maybe 5%. Hard to figure out exactly where it is coming from -- front or back? left or right? Maybe I need to strap myself to the roof rack and get my wife to take us out for a spin!
--K9Leader
2000 OB Ltd. wagon

ateixeira · May 2003

Yeah, the rears do maybe 10% of the work.

I can actually picture the roof rack idea! ;-)

-juice

fibber2 · May 2003

One of my co-workers, John, came to me with a long face yesterday. His '99 OBW with approx 70k miles appears to have blown a head gasket. His car is still with the dealer that has historically done most of the service work. It was John's praise for his OB that helped convince me to buy, so seeing his disappointment hurt a lot. And the dealer isn't helping much at this point. Without doing much diagnostics, they are already suggesting an entire new engine to the tune of $4500.

Looking for help and advice, John had already placed a call to a private foreign shop nearby, that by coincidence I have used as well. I once worked with the shop owners wife, and know that she drives a '00 OBW. The owner told John that he has replaced blown gaskets on several late model Subi's (assume Ej-25's). Always cylinder #4 (I am not sure - is that the rear drivers side???). He reported that there is usually little damage, but that for some reason the head bolts seem to loosen up here more than others. (Sounds to me like some unusual thermal cycling at this corner of the engine??). He even suggested head bolt retorque as a possible routine maintainance to prevent this from happening. (This does not look like a bad suggestion - remove spark plug wires and crankcase breather tube, remove valve cover and torque head bolts???).

Anyhow, more as the story progresses. My first suggestion was to open a case with SoA and appeal for help as it seems the dealer is looking to maximize profit on this one.

Steve

tfoshbone · May 2003

Looking to buy my first subie, and would like a little direction on which wagon is better(less problematic). I'm in the $6g range looking at impreza or legacy outback models. Through several sites have seen wheel bearing and cylinder concerns. Any advice/opinions would be appreciated thanks T

ateixeira · May 2003

Gasket failure by itself isn't that damaging, it's the resulting overheating of the alloy engine block that is.

If he stopped before things got too hot, it shouldn't be too bad, but from what the dealer is saying that's probably not the case.

I would call 800-SUBARU3 and plead my case, 70k is just out of warranty, maybe they'll split the cost. Or get a price quote from an indy mechanic that charges less.

Tom: pretty clever, come to the problems topic to uncover the real issues! :-)

Any how, wheel bearing issues affected Imprezas before 2002 and Foresters before 2003, but not Legacys or Outbacks.

Although if you're going to test drive a car that is more than 5 years old, and it has not happened already, it probably won't. Turn off the radio, open the windows, listen for any strange noises that change pitch with speed. If it's quiet, the bearings should be good.

Next thing to check is the head gaskets and front seal. Sounds complicated? No, actually it couldn't be simpler. Peek under the car, look at the block towards the sides. There should be no oil stains where the gaskets are. Also look at the front portion of the engine block for any oil stains.

Make sure if it's a clutch that it operates smoothly.

Go over those 3 areas and you've hit the most common problem areas.

BTW, don't think that Honda and Toyota don't have their own set of issues too. Honda has had 24,000 auto tranny failures across several model lines, and Toyota has 3 million engines on the road succeptible to oil sludge.

-juice

nygreg · May 2003

But, IMO, Toyota and Honda are still kings of the reliability. Toyota sludge is "susceptible" in 3 million vehicles, but, has only occurred on a small %. Toyota's response was an increase in warranty for sludge to 8 years, unlimited miles. Interestingly, it appears head gasket failures are mainly happening on OBs. Not heard much about Foresters which use the same powertrain. I like the bolt torque theory, which means mine should be good now. Also like the fact that Steve's mechanic said it is always the #10 cylinder (I am assuming this is rear left side). That means my right gasket (that wasn't changed) is fine.

Greg

P.S. I am an incurable optimist.

ateixeira · May 2003

Toyota's response was an increase in warranty for sludge to 8 years, unlimited miles

I know we'll never agree on this, but I think Toyota's response was to deny, lie, deceive, lose in court, and then finally realize it would cost more to continue denying the problem existed, so finally they caved in to an already lost cause.

That was their real response.

-juice (incurable conspiracy theorist?)

PS Cylinder 10? They sell H10s now? I want one! :-)

zman3 · May 2003

Cylinder #10 is cylinder #2 in the third engine that has been installed due to piston slap.

OK, maybe not.

nygreg · May 2003

Sorry, my H4 is so responsive I thought it had 10 cylinders.

Long couple of days at work. Anyway, I guess we can disagree on Toyota, but I am happy with both Subaru and Toyota. Now that the OB has 40K miles, I am catching myself starting to think about my next Subaru. I like the idea of a turbo Baja, or a turbo Forester or a RS. Of course a B4 would be the winner if offered. Oh well, still a couple of years away.

Greg

tfoshbone · May 2003

A.J. thanks for the complement. I myself dream of the wrx sti but unfortunately am on 6 year old car budget! Comments regarding toyota. Had a pu with r26? motor. Great motor; but they changed to different one? Oh thanks for tips on what to look for on subie.

senturi · May 2003

I've been reading a number of posts regarding head gaskets failures on Subaru Outbacks. Is there a period of time when this problem first surfaced? Is it confined to just the H4? I have an '02 Base OB with AT. Not sure if there were any head gasket failures reported for this model year.

thanks

Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

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