Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

yuyax · December 2003

I took my 02 OB for some warranty work.

I mentioned that I noticed a leak or what it looks like evidence of a leak on the battery. Trail of white sediments and the beginnings of a rusty battery bracket.

Service 'advisor' in Fairfax, VA, says that it is an Ok situation and that it is common for batteries to do that. When I mentioned the rusty bracket he says " that's Ok and it is a normal wear condition, not unusual". So basically the dealer said they just 'serviced the battery' and part of the fix was to wipe the battery and to "let's move on", meaning to drop it and to continue reading the items that were just serviced on the car... Hum, interesting way to handle a customer...

Our conversation prior to the battery discussion was centered on the fact that the 02 OB (manual) is shifting rougher than my previous 1988 Subaru GL with manual transmission (original clutch and transmission, 175k miles). Advisor basically said they are two completely different cars. I agree that they are totally different but that it just seems rougher in the 02. So he tried to use the same line of 'thought' on the battery. I am guessing that he thinks that I still have the original battery from 1988 and that it wasn't fair to compare batteries from back then with present day batteries, whatever that means.

Ok what do you think or what is your experience? Is it really normal for batteries to show evidence of leak, white trail sediment, etc? Rusty battery bracket? My commons sense says no but maybe this is ok with 'present' day batteries. Remember this is an 02 outback purchased in Jan 02.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Eug

ateixeira · December 2003

I think that's pretty normal. Any spills will turn white, it's basically distilled water converted to acid. You should wipe it up (wear gloves), I'd say it's a normal part of servicing the battery.

I topped mine off and what spilled was white just like you describe.

-juice

stever · December 2003

Juice, you'll be happy to know that I finally topped off the '97 Outback's battery today and used maybe a quart of distilled water doing so. Had a lot of white crud built up on the positive terminal that I rinsed off (and judiciously used a bit of baking soda on).

Didn't notice any rust on the battery bracket though. The minivan was crud free but took about a quart too.

Thanks for the reminders - guess one finally took :-)

Steve, Host

genegold · December 2003

Sorry, I missed that paragraph about the contacts and saw the the 1/4 tank fill up advice. Thanks for the link!

I do have an "otherwise" problem, that comes from participating in a few groups. There are people who despite having nothing to offer toward resolving the problem someone raises, nonetheless feel the overwhelming need to write something anyway. Sometimes it's harmless, other times, like this one, their posts actually get in the way by muddying the discussion. On a smaller board, such as a Yahoo group, it can be more easily handled than on an endless one with a clumsy interface like this one. That's why I decided to address it directly, to try to get the thread back on track. It's really easy to miss things on a computer and I regret missing your suggestion. thanks,

Gene

genegold · December 2003

The 15" rims really limit the choices, while another set of wheels is expensive. A specific suggestion is the Nokian WR. These are all-season winter tires and considered really good (and have worked real well for me the past two months in MN). The limit is a 50k tread life. An internet search will bring up some interesting small reviews of it and its predecessor, the NRW. If you do go for them, try etires.com or your local distributor (not tire shop) for best prices. I had them mounted at Wal-Mart, which you have to be all over about checking for valve/rim leaks. My email is listed if I can be of further help.

toca · December 2003

I just noticed excessive vibrating about a week ago. I'm going to have it looked at on Friday.

paisan · December 2003

That sounds fairly normal IMHO. It's a battery with acid. Wipe it up and don't fret about it.

As for the shifting. Your '88 was an adjustable cable clutch v. hydrolic non-adjustable type in the current car, so yes they are very different.

-mike

ateixeira · December 2003

I used about a half gallon of distilled water on our fleet last time. Yikes! Gotta check that more often myself.

-juice

ponytrekker · December 2003

P225/60HR-16 Kumho Ecsta HP4 716 In Stock $53.00 from the tire rack. Much better than the cr*ppy OEM tires.

paisan · December 2003

Not my favorite tires, ponny up for some good ones. The ecstas will be good til they get hard and slippery.

$25,000 car
$53 tires
Crashing due to being cheap on tires.... Sad

-mike

jfl · December 2003

OTOH you could run the Kumhos for 10-20k miles ('til they get hard & slippery) and replace them. Might cost less than running a premium tire for twice the distance.

(I considered this but passed and got a set of Conti Extreme Contacts.)

Jim

ponytrekker · December 2003

I didn't get the Kumhos because they were the cheapest, I compared them against everything else and they were given probably the best overall rating. I replaced the OEMs at 27k, so I wouldn't call that cheaping out. Unfortunately, not much info about tread life was on tire rack at the time I ordered them. Now, I see Info regarding tread life that wasn't there before seeming to indicate 20K is the max.

So I keep them a year and replace before next winter.

ateixeira · December 2003

Try vulcantire.com and look at the Falken ZE512s. CR rated them #1. They are directional and offer very good all around grip (dry, rain, and snow).

Biggest complaint is that after a year or two grip deteriorates, but they're cheap and you could replace them again. By 2 years most tires dry up and start to crack anyway.

I have them on my Miata. Initially, grip was so good I had to get used to a little tramlining, i.e. it would follow grooves in the road. My old tires were junk so I'm sure that sensation was exaggerated.

-juice

gearhead4 · December 2003

Juice,
I bought a set of Falken ZE512s based upon the CR rating (wife's Malibu). The price was very good from vulcantire.com.
After about 1000 miles I can say the traction and handling are very good but they seem to be a little noisy at low speeds. It's hard to predict the life of these tires, but I have never experienced cracking in any tires I have owned. The treadwear rating suggests the Faulkens should run more than twice the distance of the Bridgestone Potenza RE92s that came on my 2003 Legacy.

-Jim

ateixeira · December 2003

My Miata is noisy already, so I didn't notice any difference.

The tires I had on there before were also made by Bridgestone for Sears. The previous owners had put them on, I'm not sure what the tire model was.

-juice

pathtomax · December 2003

I have been reading that Consumer Reports rates the ZE512's the highest. I have always just stayed with the Michelin's because of the name and I always figure you pay (MXV4's @ $125 each) for what you get. Driving about 36k miles / year the Falken's may make more sense.

c_hunter · December 2003

Could be due to a lot of things. Grippier tires can really make the slop in a suspension stick out. They can also make a bad alignment more evident. If you experience significant tramlining, I would definitely get the alignment checked as a first cut (assuming you've first verified that the tire pressure is correct).

Craig

ateixeira · December 2003

Actually I suspect it's the shocks, which are definitely spent. 11 years of DC pothole abuse.

I need a new top, so I may go to Performance Buyer's Club and have them install a top and the shocks.

Considering I haven't spent a penny on repairs, she deserves the TLC.

-juice

ahaymd · January 2004

Can some one please help me? My right leg is now in pain after driving my subaru legacy wagon for 15 minutes or more. I have spent hours and $500.00 trying to find a remedy. I had a 1991 subaru legacy SW for 10 years and never had this problem. I conclude that the newer subaru have less leg space, so that the outside of the foot sole is pressing on the gas pedal instead of the inner side of the foot sole (the ball of the feet). Also, I am 5' 10", and my right leg is slightly twisted. I have spend $500.00 of various cushions from two "back store" with limited space. I have talked to two other subaru owners with similar problems. They used cruise control, which is not possible for street driving. Can I retrofit the gas pedal, crave out an area (like the Honda Element does)? If I cannot find a solution, I am looking at the Honda's, which has more leg room for the right leg. Thank you

c_hunter · January 2004

Have you considered re-positioning the pedals? That seems like the most likely fix to me. I know that short and handicapped people get the pedals customized, so it should be possible to track down a company that does this kind of work.

Craig

grahampeters · January 2004

G'day

The answer may be simpler than you think. I suffered agonies when I first bought my Mercedes with recurrent trips to a Physiotherapist to sort things out as I had intense leg pains. She then insited on looking at my seat position in the car, made a few suggestions and the problem righted itself. A check by a physiotherapist or ergonomist may be much cheaper than moving the pedals,

Part of the problem stems from the range of adjustments possible on modern cars, including Subarus. A lot of positions that feel comfortable when sitting for a moment actually cause problems when you try and drive. The back connection seems improbable unless you remember that you are stretching merves around the curve of your backside, if you are not sitting coorectly. If you strecth the nerves, the point where you will feel the pain is where the nerves end. Thus a stretched nerve round your backside might translate as sore toes because that's where your brain thinks the pain is.

Broadly, hips and knees should be on the same level.
Seat should be fairly upright.
Try and sit up rather than slumping.
pedals should be easily reachable.
Rearview mirror should be set initially and left. If you can't see out of it, you have slumped. Use the lack of vision as a reminder that you are damaging yourself
Alter the seat back occassionally to change posture
Use a lumbar roll (short sausage shaped cusion) or rolled up towel to apply pressure in lower back area

Of course, you could always use my great aunt's advice; "Sit Up Dear, You're Slumping" At least she won't make you change your Subaru seat to a straight backed kitchen chair to teach you how to sit properly.

Cheers

Graham

ateixeira · January 2004

Only similar mod I've seen here is the seat track, some have made it so it goes back an extra inch.

Hope you find a fix.

-juice

buddhabman · January 2004

Moderately Priced

Bridgestone 950's - All Season - Best for all year sport driving.

Bridgestone 730's - Summer

Michellin Pilots - All Season

Summitomo - HTR II

Bigger Ticket

Bridgestone So3's So2's - Summer

c_hunter · January 2004

The RE-750 is a much better summer tire than the 730 (among other things, it's a lot quieter).

Craig

joenote1 · January 2004

Hi, I have a 97 Legacy GT Wagon which first showed a Hot temperature Thanksgiving weekend. Unfortunately, it was Sunday on a Ski-scouting adventure, so I drove it home 1 hour, smelling of maple syrup. (I understand that's the antifreeze?) Subaru dealer changed radiator cap, oil, Dec.2 78253miles, but on Dec 18 78604 miles, it ran hot again. This time the dealer changed the thermostat, coolant, and I had them do a "level 2 service" just to check it all out. This week, Dec 30, the temperature gauge hit Hot barely 2 miles from home, so I took it back to the dealer. Today they checked it out, and said the head gasket has to be replaced, $2,200.
I've been reading messages, and it seems that it probably is a head gasket problem, but my question is, is $2,200 a reasonable price? I have no idea, but it's a lot of money for an 97 which is probably worth $8,000. Do I have any other choices but to pay?
Thanks for any suggestions ! Joenote

idahodoug · January 2004

18 months ago, I bought a low mile '96 Legacy Wagon for my mother. Before bringing it to her home in MI, I changed almost all fluids, belts and hoses. It had 49k on it. I recently fixed an issue on it that many here mention and thought I'd post it.

About 4 months ago, she mentioned that she was experiencing a shudder that she also characterized as a binding feeling while turning sharp such as parking. I noted the vehicle needed new tires as they were not evenly worn, so she got new Michelins. Some help, but still could feel it less often.

When I was home over the holidays, I noted from my log it needed two items which were fresh brake fluid and a transmission drain/refill. She had only put 3500 miles on it. Before doing these changes, I drove it around and indeed it was exhibiting these symptoms both hot and cold, though more when hot. It would catch and release about 5 times during a 90 degree turn into a parking space.

After changing the fluid, I drove it around to see if my working theory was possible - that the system was working fine, but the old fluid (looked original - shame on me) no longer had the proper frictional properties for the electrohydraulic clutch to work smoothly. After about 10 minutes of determinedly turning circles back and forth in a parking lot, the symptom dramatically reduced in intensity. With a few days left in my visit, I returned the car.

A few days later, I again drove the car, and the symptom had completely disappeared. I literally could not make it bind even the slightest.

So, for those of you experiencing this symptom, don't get sucked into an expensive rebuild. Merely change the fluid by draining the 3-4 qts out of the pan and refilling via the tranny dipstick tube. Then spend 10 minutes turning tight circles back and forth to encourage the fresh fluid's detergents to start working what might have been minor deposits off/out of the clutch assembly. I'll have to find a source to more fully explain this to myself, as if it is not a 'wet' clutch in the auto tranny fluid as I suspect, then some other force was at work.

Anyone know this offhand?

This only applies to automatics, as manuals split their torque differently, BTW. Good luck and don't let your tranny oil go longer than specified.

IdahoDoug

ateixeira · January 2004

No idea, joenote. But call 800-SUBARU3 to see if they can offer any help. It's a long shot, but ask.

Doug: some places will flush the ATF completely for $80 or so. Seems like cheap insurance.

-juice

idahodoug · January 2004

Juice,

Yep, but it will take several hours of your day to accomplish. I spent $7.50 on 4 quarts and the drain plug can be removed with no jacking. Took me about 15 minutes.

In addition, I have concerns about flushes on cars that might have accumulations from going beyond the service intervals. Changing a few quarts at a time as called for is a milder way to clean things out. Of course, at some point the pan should be dropped and the filter cleaned/replaced

ateixeira · January 2004

Certainly better than doing nothing.

-juice

mrk610 · January 2004

I think I have been hit with the head gasket demon. I was doing my o/f change yesterday and I always check the underside of the engine while I'm down there . Well I noticed some weeping liquid coming from the driverside head gasket .Around the # 4 cylinder .It is mostly on the back side and bottom of the block by the firewall. It is a very little amount not enough to run down the block and drip on the ground . I can't tell what it is because it is black in color and feels gritty probable from picking up road dirt and sand from the beaches here . It almost looks like when you drop some oil while filling up you car and you don't clean it up ,it attracts the dirt and grime from the road . I then checked all the other areas and found no other weeping. I don't have to add any oil between changes . I am not losing any coolant and I don't have any overheating problems .I have checked the coolant tank after driving it appears normal . Is this normal for them to weep alittle or is it the start of head gasket problems . I have a 02 outback 2.5l 4eat with 37k miles on it .

Mike k

zilgags · January 2004

Hi:

I just purchased a 2004 Outback. I like it very much. One thing I've noticed is that the car vibrates a lot when it's idle (e.g., at stop lights). It doesn't make any noise, but I can feel the vibration and it seems fairly strong to me. Is this a known characteristic of the car?

Thanks!

vetmats · January 2004

Do you have a 4 cylinder? I had a 2000 4cyl Outback, I could feel vibrations at stop lights the whole time I owned the car. Just a characteristics of the boxer engine I think.

c_hunter · January 2004

Mike: that does not sound like a head gasket problem to me, but time will tell. Definitely keep an eye on it. Maybe wipe clean and check every week to see if there are any visible changes.

Zil: there is some vibration, but it does not seem excessive to me. Do you have an auto transmission car? If so, is the vibration different in D and N (or P)?

Craig

jfl · January 2004

I believe it's typical of the engine at its idle rpm. A hundred rpm higher and it smoothes out. (Switch on the A/C and it happens.)

Jim

zilgags · January 2004

Thanks for your replies.

Yes, it is a 4 cylinder. The vibration occurs while in drive but stopped and in park. I will have to check neutral.

I'll try putting the AC on to see whether that smooths it out.

I appreciate everyone's feedback. Thanks!

jlemole · January 2004

I have noticeable vibration on my 02 H4 Outback, too. It will stop if in N or P. Once the engine is up to normal operating temperature, the vibration should diminish significantly.

Jon

jlemole · January 2004

The Phase II engine is supposed to have an improved HG design, but I believe a few Crew members with similar model years have had the problem at the #4 cylinder head. You might see leakage accumulating on the cross-member below that part of the engine. Hopefully others who've actually experienced the problem will provide some more input than I can. But keep us posted, as I have an 02 H4 with roughly the same mileage as yours.

Jon

mrk610 · January 2004

I have not looked but I don't think it is leaking enough to accumulate on the cross member yet .I'm going to make an appointment to have the dealer look at it .At least it will be documented if nothing else .

Thanks mike k

fibber2 · January 2004

As you may remember from last June, I suffered the same fate. '02 OBW at 15.5k miles: I started to build up a deposit on the back edge of the head/block, that eventually coated the grey painted frame cross-member below it. If you collect a scraping, you will find it is green tinted, mixed with plenty of road grime. The upper areas looked like crystal growth, lower areas simply look wet. I watch the problem develop for maybe 2 months or so before bringing it in. My first indication was a very very slow loss of coolant in the overflow tank (maybe quarter inch plus per week). A thorough search found where it was going.

Steve

jfl · January 2004

is #4 cylinder driver's side or passenger side?

thx,

Jim

dcm61 · January 2004

Firewall

3 -- 4
1 -- 2

Grill

DaveM

jfl · January 2004

Duh!

Thanks Dave. I didn't even think of RHD vs LHD.

Jim

mrk610 · January 2004

I also posted this on the problems and solutions chat.I was able to stop by my dealer today on my way home from work to have them look at my heads (lol).Well the mechanic and I are becoming quite friendly these past couple of months . I was able to finally have them change my timing belt tensioner last month .
Any way back to my heads . The mechanic put the car on the lift and I showed him were i saw the leak . ON my car you can see better from the top of the engine .Mine were leaking from the back and bottom of the block around the # 4 cylinder. When I showed him it said ohh well whats another one when I do about 2 a week .He said that I caught mine early because the gasket didn't fail around the coolant jacket . Mine was only leaking oil. He is going to call SOA and see if he can autherize to have both of my heads done , since he has to pull the engine anyway.He said that there seems to be a problem with the late 01 model builds and the early 02 model builds . Mine 02 outback was built in 6/01.I'm dropping the car off next Monday and he said it will only take 1 day which seems kinda short to me .

How long did it take to have your head gaskets done . For the people on here that have had this problem .
Thanks
Mike k

dcm61 · January 2004

Thanks for the info Mike.

My Mom's '02 OBW was also built in 6/01. :-(

I just changed the oil on 12/31. Looked under the right head (totally clean), checked the front CV boots & steering boots but forgot to look under the left head. Better venture over to Mom's and crawl under the left side and take a peek. She currently has only 15.4k miles on the car.

DaveM

mrk610 · January 2004

No problem .Thats why I love this board so much . I'll cross my fingers and hope you don't find anything .

fig_28680 · January 2004

Gunk(oil) showed up in the overflow tank. Have done a coolant flush and replaced thermostat to no avail. Vehicle now has sporadic episodes of overheating. You can stop the vehicle, place in neutral, rev engine to 2500-3000 RPMs and temp returns to normal. Have to top off coolant frequently and is nearly impossible to get all trapped air purged. Virtually no oil consumption (130,000 miles on vehicle) and great power. Any definitive testing method to determine if this is a head gasket?? If this is the problem does any one have opinion on engine sealants? Can this stuff harm my engine and make matters worse? Or is it worth a try?

nygreg · January 2004

sounds like a compression test should give you insight on the condition of your gaskets. I would have it checked out ASAP as overheating can cause major problems.

Greg

zman3 · January 2004

If I recall correctly my head gaskets were also about a day to complete. I think I dropped it off one morning, they diagnosed it, and I had it back early PM the next day.

ratbert1 · January 2004

I have to backup the recommendation for Nokian. I got these for my wife's Saturn and we both LOVE them. When I have to replace mine on my 02 OBW, it will be Nokian for sure.

bat1161 · January 2004

A little background:
On the last leg of the 48hrs Sunday a CEL came on my 2000 OBW 5MT. Mike was able to scan it and told me that cylinders 1 & 2 had misfired. After cleaning the plugs everything went back to normal for a short period of time, before having the CEL come back on. I used the car for about 15 minutes last night, during which time the CEL blinked for about 5 seconds before going to a steady light again.

I called the dealer yesterday, who told me to bring the car in where the first thing they will check is the coil. My question is: The dealer is about 45 minutes to an hour away. Should I try to get AAA to tow me out there, or should I go to the closest dealer (who I am not too confident in)? Or, should I try to drive it out there?

Thanks,
Mark

Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

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