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Comments
Thanks, Andy
Karl
Jun
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Pauly, everything electrical in the cabin seem to work fine, including the dash board gauges and indicators.
thanks,
Jun
The problem you described seem to match mine right on. I could also hear a single click coming from the fuse box area next to the driver-side door hinge, then nothing more. Also your theory of a loose connection at the power input of the starter also seem to match my symptom as the dealer detected no power to the starter when the Legacy was acting up. The loose connection theory seem to partly explain why, on both occasions, after a jittery tow truck ride, the problem would mysteriously vanish. Thanks, I'll ask the dealer to check out your theory.
Jun
I doubt I will ever buy another Subaru, but that won't keep me from continuing to own, drive, enjoy, and hate the one I currently have. I love it more than I hate it, but I also did not pay 34K just to have my name put on the title.
Best of luck to you with the car and, more importantly, with the wife! They all have their quirks..... ;-D
-Wes-
If you do, though, try the Single Point Ground mod, they even sell a kit for that now.
-juice
1. Power Door Locks
2. Dash Lights
3. Headlights (though the rest of the lights such as turn signals, tail lights, etc., are very reliable)
4. "Ghost" problem of not starting on which I have spend $100s for diagnosis to no avail: probably the reason I am the 4th owner (purchased it in 2000 @ 83K) and almost the reason why there would have been a 5th.
5. frequent sensor failures, usually at least 1 every 18 months or so.
I am sure some of it has to do with the extreme climate in which I live, but I grew up with Toyota family cars and just came to expect a certain level of basic reliability and the Subaru's electrical systems do not meet that expectation. But, I can drive my faulty car in circles around those Toyotas while they are mired in snow and slipping on ice, tow my pickup up my ice-covered driveway with full payloads (2000+ lbs), pull out big 4x4 trucks from the ditch with little effort, and the list goes on. That makes the car worth keeping, but not necessarily worth buying another one. One of the reasons I frequent this board is to track the types of general problems people report with their new Subaru wagons so I can keep my '96 M.Y. biases in perspective.
What is the Single Point Ground mod, juice?
-Wes-
Sly
1.) I live in Baltimore, MD. Not sure if winter gas is in the pumps at this point or not.
2.) I normally drive about 16 miles each way to/from work. About a mile the Beltway (3 possible stoplights), about 10 miles on I-95 highway, and the remainder on city streets.
3.) On my first tank of gas, I was up closer to 26-27 MPG at the mid-pt., but it also involved a trip to/from DC at mostly high speed.
Is the salesman's advice (turning the gas cap 3-4 full turns vs. just a few clicks) the right way to go? Or is it unnecessary to create a proper seal? I'm willing to do all the extra "clicks" if it's worthwhile.
Also, is it normal for the first MPG measure (the "what you're doing right then") to vary pretty randomly...from like 14 to 25 to 44 and back down again? What causes the higher variations, esp. at relatively consistent speeds?
Thanks,
sb
You've cleared the biggest hurdle of the dealer not seeing the same problem. Now the clock is ticking on their side to get the problem resolved in a timely manner.
While I'm not suggesting it as a course of action, most Lemon Laws provide a time limit (usually 30 days or more) of cumulative inoperation due to warranty work in the first year or so of ownership. Speak softly by carry that big stick in your back pocket.
I'd call Subaru and start a case just to make sure that you have all the attention you need on this matter. I'd be very frustrated too after having put down +$30K on a new car and having it in the shop for so long.
It sounds like you're being very patient which really goes a long way. I hope they find a solution soon.
Ken
I doubt the extra clicks have anything to do with gas milage. A loose gas cap will trigger a Check Engine Light, however. It's good practice to give the cap a couple of extra clicks. A few extra turns aren't necessary.
The fluctuations in the instantaneous MPG reading are normal. In this mode, the trip computer is taking small samples of your gas consumption compared to miles driven. Since miles covered will be relatively consistent, all of the variation you're seeing is coming from a sudden increase in fuel usage by touching the gas pedal. I typically don't use this mode since it really doesn't provide much useful information.
Ken
During long road trips in the Jeep, this "stock market" mode was my daughters' favorite mode. 8~)
Of course, the driver had total control of the market!
Jim
I looked at a '98 Outback Limited today. Nice specs; 124k, wagon, leather, sunroof, the works. Auto trans :-(
Otherwise smoked in and a bit of a rat, but OK for a bad-weather runabout.
The seller, who appeared knowledgeable and honest, said he'd had it for a year, and it may not have been treated all that well in its previous life. Makes noises on cold start. OK, I've graduated from the Audi school of cold starts long ago, so I let him fire it up.
Sure enough, the valves go clacklacklacklacklacklacklack, like you'd expect them to, then they quiet down fairly quickly. Somebody please tell me these engines have hydraulic lifters and that's what the problem is -- Yes?
But then I let it idle and with my hand on the block and the other hand on the throttle linkage (Put your HANDS on the television set and PRAY with me... sorry....) I carefully crack the throttle a bit. I hear a not very loud but very noticable TOCKOCKOCKOCKOCKOCK knocking sound, hard and metallic, with a "deep inside" quality. Going at crankshaft frequency, not camshaft frequency, as near as I can tell from listening. Did not feel it, though. What was it?
It's too bad; while not the nicest '98 you're likely to find, old Subies are hard to come by, and the asking price is a lousy $3,650... This would make a nice winter beater.
-Mathias
Nope, they have solid lifters. Only the '96 2.5 had hydraulic lifters. The initial lifter noise is normal for the Subaru boxer.
I hear a not very loud but very noticable TOCKOCKOCKOCKOCKOCK knocking sound, hard and metallic, with a "deep inside" quality.
The noise is probably piston slap. Some of the 2.5's experience this. Per SOA, unless the noise lasts beyond warm-up, it is "normal" and supposedly does not affect engine longevity.
Will the seller allow you to have it checked out by a mechanic?
DaveM
In simple terms, solid lifters must be adjusted manually and hydraulic lifters are self adjusting. I'm not sure what the benefits of one over the other is.
I think the vehicle has what is known as piston slap(a kind of pronounced ticking sound) but it does not seem to affect the car's performance.
I don't think the '96 2.5 has the piston slap issue. Subaru redesigned the engine for MY97 using shorter piston skirts and supposedly that is the cause of piston slap.
DaveM
My old 96 Outback never made the noise.
My 99 GT sedan with 117k gets louder as the temperature gets colder, and completely disappears within 3-5 minutes of warmup. I have had no problems with this car and drive it 90 miles a day.
FWIW, my 03 Outback also makes the noise. The salesperson told us about the typical non-destructive engine knock the day we purchased the vehicle.
I would not be overly concerned. Rob M.
Jun
The Phase I 2.5L DOHC engines are especially noisy at startup due to the solid lifters. These are adjusted by shims and therefore they create quite a racket when first started cold. Also, due to the boxer engine layout, an H4 has twice as many camshafts as an inline 4.
Hydraulic lifters are quieter since they don't use shims to adjust the spacing. However, I've read that there is a performance limit to hydraulic lifters and may be the reason why Subaru used solid lifters in this case.
The Phase II motor got rid of the lifters so they are noticeably quieter at first start up.
Ken
Well in that case, my Phase II motor runs very well for not having lifters. :-)
I think you meant to say they went from DOHC to SOHC.
IIRC, the later Phase I and all Phase II have screw type (vs. shim) adjustable solid lifters.
DaveM
BTW, for those of you who saw my questions on the '05 Legacy board about whether the non-turbo had adequate power: what a difference driving a well-broken-in car makes! I was reluctant to rev up a car with 15-40 miles on the odo, so I couldn't tell how much pep the new ones really had; this one at 57k miles was a revelation. Not an LGT, but not too shabby!
In turns it leans more than my '01 Accord with stiffer rear sway bar, but driving through twisty roads in the Texas Hill Country, I found myself going faster in the Subie, with no apparent effort. Its quiet and smooth on bumps, and leans a bit, so you don't realize how fast you are going until you look at the speedo. Deceptively fast car!
- The Subaru engine is alloy. Valves and camshafts are steel. Subaru engines are louder at start - especially the solid lifter models - than inline fours. They are also rougher at idle. But they are relatively smooth at highway speeds. TANSTAAFL.
- Solid lifters are typically more efficient. Switching to Castrol High Mileage oil will make an amazing difference in cold start noise.
- Electrical problems are not typical of the late 90's Subarus. I did have to replace the door switch for the interior light last week. And there was a recall on alternators.
- One problem that has manifested itself with these engines is headgasket problems, usually over 100,000 miles. First manifestations are brief overheating episodes or bubbles and combustion by-products in the coolant overflow. If one "blows" they might need to be replaced (about $1,200) or you could fry the whole engine. I replaced mine at 140K as a preventative measure, since I drive hard. At that mileage, you could still seen the hone marks in the cylinder bores.
But, I can drive my faulty car in circles around those Toyotas while they are mired in snow and slipping on ice, tow my pickup up my ice-covered driveway with full payloads (2000+ lbs), pull out big 4x4 trucks from the ditch with little effort, and the list goes on.
Good for the poster, but the rest of us should not forget that the Subaru Legacy series cars do not have low range (in the U.S.); most do not have a rear limited slip differential; none have locking center differentials; and in fact if you get an OB stuck in a drift so that one of the front wheels is off the ground, you'll be completely immobilized. My Honda Accord with Nokian snow tires stops better and turns better than the Subaru with all-season M&S rated tires. AWD is not invincible.
Subarus have excellent traction on slippery roads. They sometimes do better on icy, very rough or twisty roads than 4WD trucks, because those trucks have beam axles and the wheels are bounced off the ground. They are also very good on dirt roads, one of the reasons why they are so popular in places like Vermont with a lot of dirt roads.
Subarus are also very reliable, handle well, and get respectable mpg for an AWD vehicle. There are few persistanc problems but always cars that are unlucky or poorly maintained. Expect to pay a mpg and maintenance penalty for any AWD vehicle and you will be much happier. There are at least three Subaru only websites with more information.
I had a problem with my '98 OB where there was a hairline fracture in that fuseable link. The fracture is enough to maintain contact to go unnoticed until jolted or contracts [cold], then the car won't start. In this case, most of your electricals will appear to be in order.
-Dave
It might be splitting hairs, but technically the current design doesn't have a 'lifter' in the conventional sense. One end of the rocker has a roller that rides the cam. The other has a screw adjuster that acts directly on the valve. There is no interface (the lifter) on either side.
Steve
-Wes-
Basically they find one nice grounding point in the engine bay and connect many electrical devices with a ground wire directly to that location. It's supposed to clear up issues like the ones above.
You can also search on that other board.
-juice
I had an 00 with 5-speed (Outback actually) and it was fun to drive with plenty of power. I wasn't as thrilled with the auto trans, but with manual the engine is quite peppy.
Craig
Good for the poster, but the rest of us should not forget that the Subaru Legacy series cars do not have low range (in the U.S.); most do not have a rear limited slip differential; none have locking center differentials; and in fact if you get an OB stuck in a drift so that one of the front wheels is off the ground, you'll be completely immobilized. My Honda Accord with Nokian snow tires stops better and turns better than the Subaru with all-season M&S rated tires. AWD is not invincible.
Please note that I am certainly not recommending that folks tow heavy loads even moderately short distances, but 150 feet up my driveway towing my truck has generated zero problems; it just gives the ol' girl enough extra umph to overcome her 2wd-slippery-working-tires woes. Tire chains might resolve the problem as well, but I don't think that 1-2 occurences per year warrants them.
Also, what use is low range for pulling out stuck rigs? The mere weight differential between a Subaru Legacy (series) and most of the vehicles you'll be recovering negates the practicality of trying a straight pull. Get yourself a nylon recovery strap and give a quick yank - I works wonders!
No, AWD is not invincible, but it can mean the difference between parking the car at home at night and going for a walk to get home. We just had 14" of accumulation last week and that was about the limit of what my '96 could handle (it was not without a little worry); again, tire chains would certainly have helped. It's all about learning the limits of your car and knowing your own limits.
As garandman pointed out, though, taking weight off the front tires of the vehicle is the quickest way to get a Subaru stuck. To get it unstuck, don't bother with clearing snow in front or behind the tires: just knock down the snow under the engine and front seating area and you'll be up and running - don't bother with the rear unless you're really mired.
Not sure if we're talking about the same thing. The Phase II engine uses a rocker-roller assembly rather than a shim-bucket style in the Phase I.
Colin knows a lot more about this stuff than I do, and I do recall him explaining that the Phase II engine does not use lifters.
Anyway here's some technical back up:
http://www.cobbtuning.com/tech/sohc/
Ken
Maybe I should rephrase the question then. Our Outback's brakes make a rubbing noise whenever the brakes are cold. (After say a couple of hours in the cold). Especially noticeable in reverse. I'm not used to hearing the brakes make a noise on any other car (except in situations you describe where rust has had a chance to develop.)
Even this car did not used to make this rubbing noise. for the first 7000 miles. It is not a loud noise at all. You must have the radio off, and it can't be in noisy traffic etc.
It disappears completely after the brakes have "warmed up".
Anyone else notice that??
Thanks for setting me straight.
DaveM
Elissa
kcram
Host - Wagons
I hear that is a problem with this 04-engines and in some countries (like Australia) they was replaced many engines by this issue (I see that in www.talkaboutautos.com).
Something hear this?
Are there more outbak's owners with this issue? and with this issue repaired?
jnm
Would you explain what you mean by the "burn-in" oil? Are you filling your own oil and then later going to the dealer for a top-off?
Here in the US, Subaru won't address oil consumption less than 1qt/1000 miles as an issue. It sounds like you're just borderline. Normally, a dealer would do a leak test where they will monitor the oil consumption over a given period of time. Your engine is filled by the dealer and the drain plug is marked.
Have you tried using different grades of oil? Sometimes some brands of oil have slightly higher or lower viscosities for their rating and affect consumption. For example, Mobil 1 5W30 is on the very low side of a 30 weight oil. Some people have noted higher consumption when using this oil.
Ken
-juice
I would explain: First, with the break-in oil, this engine consumes 1 litre in my first 1500Km, I not filled any oil and I go to the dealer and him was changed the oil saying that "this break-in oil are more thin for my country"
The dealer use the Subaru recomended oil in my country: CEPSA MegaSyntetic 5W40
I think if in normal driving (3.000 rpm) this engine consumes 1 litre every 4.000 Km, then in racing driving (5.000 rpm) this engine can consume more oil than petrol !
Do you know if all the 2004-Outback's 2.5i (H-4) consumes oil ? I found some references by this issue :
http://www.apro.org/04_Outback_2_5_engine_Oil_problem-2005925-378- -a.html
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THEY SAYS: I've spoken to Subaru here is Australia and to my surprise they have replaced multiple engines under warranty because of this issue. The pamphlet I spoke of, in the first line actually says:
"Refinement of modern engines can lead people into a false sense of security that fluid levels, particularly oil, do not need checking. In fact they do."
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I don't know if this is a fake but I made 800.000 Km with some cars and I never own a new car with this oil consomation, this is normal in a 300.000Km car. They are Subarus the worse cars in the world?
jnm
I check the coolant and it not seems mixed with the oil, the coolant level is OK.
I see too in a subaru forum a head gasket problem in some 2004 outback 2.5i. I thing that my outback hasn't this problem, but I chek that in the dealer house
jnm
With regards to the oil consumption, I don't know what else I can add. How did you break in your car? Sometimes not following the recommended break-in procedure can result in poor piston ring seating leading to exessive blow-by.
Also, some oil consumption is not necessarily a symptom of a bigger underlying problem. All engines consume some amount of oil normally. As long as you are not fouling PVC lines and have full compression, you probably are okay.
Ken
Any quirks or unusual requirements? Thanks!
Stanton
I can't post a link, but a website by the name of Scoobymods has lots of illustrations.
Ken
DaveM
Craig
BTW, I put the Bridgestone Turanza LS-H's on yesterday, and transformed the car. Of course, what was on the car before would not be hard to beat: original RE92's on the back (at 57,000 miles!), and a new-ish pair of cheap junkers on the front. Those tires growled like mud tires. The LS-H's are dead silent - sort of like a new Camry or Lexus, but with Subie's precise steering and quick cornering response. The ride is also very good. I haven't had any rain here yet (central Texas), but based on the wet performance of the LS's under my Accord, I expect to be awestruck.
The LS's have a bit more rolling resistance than some; on the Accord I lost about 2 mpg with them until I bumped the tire pressure about 5 psi above the stock 30 psi, then returned to normal mileage. I'm running the new LS's at 36 front, 34 rear on the Legacy (4 psi above standard). We'll see how mileage goes.
If you decide to bleed the brakes, Subaru's recommended sequence is FR > RL > FL > RR. A bit different from what I'm used to doing but easy to do as well.
Jim