Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

zman3 · August 2005

Glad to help. I feel like I receive a lot more from these forums than I contribute, so it's nice to help out occasionally.

Karl

joyride21 · August 2005

i don't know if you notices that i have the same problem, does your car do what mine does, i was #5128. i went to the dealer and had the computer data cleared, it ran fine until i shut the car off. i am honestly thinking it is going to be the computer, because if it were the iac or something else it would set a code, im gonna have my computer reprogramed next week probably cause i have sources, i will let you know if that fixes it

fibber2 · August 2005

Stanton,

Glad to hear that this did the trick. Think I suggested to you that probably the rear took some abuse that the fronts did not see.

Just curious - did you go OEM or aftermarket? What did they run?

Steve

mccain · August 2005

Hi guys, My wife's 2003 Legacy has the valet security monitor light between the tach and speedo. We are not able to turn it off (clear the light). I've tried the setting sequence from the Owners Manual. It doesn't respond. Any suggestions ?

cfitzpatrick · August 2005

I have an '01 Outback with the 6 disc changer. The changer is still working fine, but the cd player in the main stereo has quit working and will not read the cd, just spits it out. I suppose my first step is just cleaning the laser? Anyone else had this problem...

Cheers,

Caleb

stantont · August 2005

I know the original owner had a pair of BIG dogs, and carried them in crates in the back. I can't imagine the weight of two dogs being enough to make the difference, but maybe they were Great Pyrenees(?).

Anyway, I went OEM; I have had some good experiences with aftermarket (Koni, Bilstein) and some not-so-good (KYB for my 1990 SHO - wrong calibration for the car). When I test-drove Subies over the last couple of years, I was consistently impressed with the ride/handling compromise, so I figured aftermarket would be darned lucky if they could match that. OEM was a safer bet.

They were $70 each from an outfit up in New England.

Stanton

fibber2 · August 2005

Stanton,

Good deal, and a wise choice. A relatively inexpensive fix to something that has been bothering you for a while. Any tips or problems with the installation?

Steve

nowakj66 · August 2005

Will the Subaru cargo carrier that is sold for the 2005 Subaru Outback work on a 2002 Subaru Outback? I'd like to use my Subaru bucks to buy one but I want to be sure it works.

stantont · August 2005

Pretty much straightforward but for two things: 1) the nut at the bottom of the spring/shock is TIGHT. I couldn't move it even with an 18 inch breaker bar, so I set the wrench on it and lowered the car weight onto the wrench against the driveway. That did it. I guess if you had a lift and raised the car to where you could put a two-foot breaker on it, it would be easy, but in the driveway on a floor jack (with safety jackstands, of course) there was no room to really put muscle on it. 2) the spring/shock unit is longer than the free-hanging position of the rear suspension; you need a hydraulic floor jack to partially compress the spring so you can remove and then re-install the bottom bolt.

In contrast, the top nuts are accessible inside the rear floor when you lift up the carpeted rear "floor". Really easy.

They are technically coil-over spring/shocks, but they install very much like McPherson struts.

Stanton

jeremyt1 · August 2005

My vehicle appears to have had a power surge or some odd electrical short.
Here's the story:

I let my car sit for about a week without driving it and the battery died. I figured it was no big deal since it's the original battery to the car (99 Subaru Legacy GT) and it just needed replacing.
I jumped it, then a couple days later noticed the battery/voltage light on. So I replaced the battery and drove about a mile when a bunch of dash lights started flashing and the wipers came on and were wiping about 3x faster than the speed of what high normally is. I thought they were gonna fly off the dang car.

I pulled over right away and it wouldn't start. The only thing that now works is the power locks and the sound that lets you know you've left the keys in the ignition. Everything else isn't responding.

Any ideas what could have happened here?

lfdal · August 2005

In days gone by that could have been caused by a faulty voltage regulator. On the old mechanical ones they would occasionally stick and the higher you rev'd the engine the more voltage things got - remember blowing ever bulb, including headlights that way.

Don't hear about that happen very often with a solid state regulator.

You didn't happen to notice if things got brighter or w/w faster as you gave it more gas?

I'd check all of the fuses and fusible links first, then recheck the battery connections and the battery voltage with a meter if you have one.

Then I think I'd get the alternator output checked.......

HTH

Larry

jeremyt1 · August 2005

Giving it gas didn't change anything.
I had it towed to a garage, I wanted some opinions before they got back to me so I would kind of know what to expect. I'm hoping this won't cost a fortune...

Thanks for taking the time to give me advice. I'll let you know what turns up.

lfdal · August 2005

You're welcome. Please do let us know what caused it. An alternator shouldn't be that bad to get replaced, the regular fuses are dirt cheap, but if it did blow some of the fusible links they could get a little expensive.

Should be trivial for a shop to diagnose.

Good luck

Larry

senturi1 · August 2005

My wife drives a '02 OB Wagon AT with a 2.5L engine. From time to time she will use premium grade gas instead of regular. I know the 3.0L engine requires premium gas all the time, however is it OK to drive the 2.5L engine using premium gas all the time? Can the premium gas affect the 2.5L engine negatively?

thanks
senturi

ateixeira · August 2005

Sorry to ask the obvious, but you sure you're not using the valet key? Try a different key to be sure.

Premium - it won't hurt your engine but it might hurt your wallet! $3.159 in Rockville, MD for premium, ouch!

-juice

thallberg · August 2005

Premium won't hurt the engine, it's just a waste.
I had a 96 OB 2.5L wagon that recommended premium but I used 10% ethanol (89 octane) with absolutely no problems.
My 99 OB 2.5L sedan recommended regular and I used the ethanol mix with no problems.
My current 03 H-6 3.0L VDC wagon recommends premium, but again, I have had no problems with the ethanol 89 octane.
Strangely, though, when I reset the engine computer on the VDC and filled the car up with premium (92 Octane) it got 19 city and 26 highway as opposed to 17 city and 24 highway before the reset and using 89 octane ethanol blend.
In Nebraska, the 89 octane 10% ethanol mix costs substantially less than regular, so I tend to use that more often and it's never given me a problem with engine response or repairs.

krzyss · August 2005

Why "Strangely"?
If premium is recommended then it is no wonder that engine is designed to benefit from higher octane.
Is 89 octane 10% ethanol 10% cheaper than good stuff?

Krzys

doug900 · August 2005

Ok, I'm getting tired of troubleshooting this "o2 sensor heater circuit high input" problem. I didn't have this problem originally. Could it be that I just plain and simply have the wrong o2 sensor installed?

This is on a 1999 subaru Legacy L wagon (just discovered that it is a California car) which explains the 4 wire o2 sensor on front and back, as opposed to 3 wire front and 4 wire back on non california models.

When looking up sensors on "oxygensensors.com" (great site)!, they don't list a 4 wire universal for the front sensor (upstream from cat) for this car (year). I purchased one anyway (a 4 wire universal), and installed it. I wonder if this is the problem? the original sensor is a denso "planer" design, and the one I purchased, is a walker "thimble" design. It appears to be a hard fail in the OBDII, since when I disconnect the battery for a while, and then start the car, the "check engine light" comes on about 5 seconds after start, but instantly for each subsequent start thereafter.

Does anybody know if this year and model subaru is critical to what o2 sensor is used? Is there something unique about the heater circuit in the oem sensor? I did break down and buy an oem sensor (Denso) for $114.00, hoping that when it comes, it will take care of my problem. Feed back from a subaru tech or someone in the know would be great! Seems to me that there is a reason that universal sensors are not listed for this car! Doug :confuse:

thallberg · August 2005

Premium is about $2.89/gallon compared to $2.51 for the 89 octane (10%) ethanol mix at the BP stations. So it is a little more than 10% less. Regular (87 octane) is somewhere between the two.
Of course, these change almost hourly now. :surprise:

kalorix · August 2005

This may be a silly question but I have four new jack stands that I've bought to get a good look under the car. However, I've no idea of the safest place to put them. They don't have the slit-like groove that the Subaru jack has so I can't place them directly at the jack points. Any pointers anyone? A previous owner of the vehicle has already "flattened" one of the jack points, I assume by placing a jack stand under it. I have the Haynes maintenance manual if that can be used for reference. Thanks.

fibber2 · August 2005

In general, the jacking points are also the best place for jack stands. You 'jack' the rear from under the differential, and the front from the center crossmember that is located just behind the oil drain plug area. Your question, and one that has plagued me on every car I have owned, is how to safely put the flat topped stands that have no cutout under that ridge of metal that is really not intended to bear the weight (the flat spot above that is reinforced for this purpose....)! I am sort of surprised that the makers of stands don't get it, and include the notch that most vehicles need.

In the past, my old stands had a large enough flat top that I put a chuck of oak that I sawed a ridge on the top, and had 'wings' on the bottom so that they did not slip off. I am not yet sure what to do with my new ones.

Steve

yustr · August 2005

Well it turned out to be the viscous coupling and it's all fixed....$1050 later....

shoulderhigh · August 2005

The mechanic said I need to replace the entire engine. An import from Japan. Someone made a point to me the other day that he felt that the VW engine is better for the american subaru. What should I tell my mechanic? And are their other things I should be worried about? replacing a blown engine with a used engine in a 110k 1996...It was in great shape before the overheating, but is this wise? Kelley Blue book says its worth between $4000 and $5400 in realitvely good shape. I bought it a year and a half ago for $7400 and in the shape that its in now the mechanic says its not worth anything even to the scrap... My girlfriend has a $4000 used Golf that she was going to sell. Should we use that money to fix the subaru up or should I say goodbye and muster up whatever I can buy for my $5000 budget?

What a bummer...

xwesx · August 2005

What caused the overheating? Engine replacement due to a single overheat event could be a bit shortsighted at this point.

If the block is cracked or heads are warped, it could be a good move to replace the engine - probably a $2500 fix for the engine; don't know about how much labor would cost, but I could swap out the engine in 5-6 hours from start to finish, so I would hope an experienced shop could do it in less.

If the car is in good shape other than the engine (110K isn't much for a 10-yr-old car), then I would say that's your cheapest option if you're looking at a 5K cap. I cannot comment on a VW engine swap, though I can imagine that there are some engine management issues that could come up with the computer.

It's up to you, but if you replace it with a 5K car, it is probably going to land you with maintenance issues of its own.

Good luck.....

-Wes-

joyride21 · August 2005

i would also keep in mind that most gas engines don't do very well with ethanol, the pump and everything else aren't made for it. it may be cheaper but you will have problems later. im a mechanic and im seeing so many problems with people using cheep fuel, and ethanol than recommended. i was reading through my manual to see if i could use ethanol fuel and the manual recommends not to and especially not more than 15%.
and on another note if the car recommends premium, you should really stay away from less than that, if you go a lower grade the engine will ping. it is very harmful to the engine. the lower grade burns at a lower temp which is why you get pinging, and that is why you get better mileage with the premium. and also the percentage of ethanol does not change the grade it is just mixed differently.
so i would just be careful with the grade you use, i have a 00 H4 i only use Chev or Chell, no cheep gas in my car, its only a couple cents more but worth it in the long run

steve

fibber2 · August 2005

Steve,

Unfortunately, ethanol (ethyl alcohol - grain alcohol) is the prefered oxygenator replacement for MTBE in many states. 10% is the industry standard, and in many parts of the country you simply cannot buy anything less. So for many of us, it is not a matter of choice.

The manufacturers say that the seals in pumps should be OK with ethanol and isopropyl alcohol, but I would avoid methanol (the cheap 'dry gas' additive - wood alcohol). That stuff is more likely to break down rubbber and seal materials.

Steve

ebony5 · August 2005

Anyone have any experience using Lucas gas additive? I have a '96 OBW which requires Premium gas. Generally I use BP and sometimes Shell, but with the price of gas as it is I would like to increase the mileage if possible, and hopefully benefit the engine.I still plan on using premium. I just do not want to risk harming a ten year old engine with 79,000 miles on it, the seals, gaskets or whatever. Thanks

joyride21 · August 2005

i did know the 10% rule and they are trying to bump it up to 15% in ID. i was in a class a bit ago and we were talking about ethanol and how it effects a car, yes it does take a long time, and it isn't the seals im worried about, its the gumming up like sugar does and that crappy dexcool does. but you are right there is now way around it, which sucks.
if i remember, i have the book from my class, i will try to find that topic and let you know exactly what is says
and i totaly agree with you about cheep gas, we have soo many chevy trucks and suvs come in with rough engines, and half the time its cheep gas is their problem

Steve

zman3 · August 2005

Minnesota has had 10% Ethanol year round for a few years now. Prior to that it was added during the winter months. I know of not one single person that has had issues due to the ethanol. I have 98,000 miles on my Outback with no fuel related issues. I wouldn't worry about it. I would think that if it were an issue we would be aware of it here.

They are talking about a mandated 20% ethanol fuel in a few years. I have no idea what that extra 10% would do, other than reduce mileage further.

ritom · August 2005

I have a '95 Legacy wagon 180,000 miles. I've had this car 8 years. Just had a tune up because it needed one, but I've been having this problem since before the tune-up and it hasn't been resolved. The car starts fine most of the time, but about once a week it will not start until I pump the gas a few times and wait 2 minutes. When I turn the key, all dash lights will come on, sometimes I hear nothing, but somtimes I hear it trying to turn over. This seems to happen when there is moisture in the air, dew, or overnight rain, but it also happenned once on a dry warm evening. Is this because of an old battery or electrical problem? Because it's an intermittent problem, I don't want to take it to the shop only to have them tell me they couldn't get it to not start. Any ideas?

ateixeira · August 2005

I'll take a SWAG: fuel pump.

-juice

thallberg · August 2005

I'm curious as to how ethanol "gums" up an engine. Ethanol is a very simple molecule that burns clean, compared to gasoline that has considerable by-products of combustion. I wouldn't recommend using over 10% though, manly because of the possible effects on various seals, especially in older models.

Also, how does one tell "good" gas from "cheap" gas. New engine management systems compensate for a lot of knock you could feel in the past. Are there any ratings available?

I always assumed all tanker trucks fill at the same depots and additives are added later by the various petroleum companies. Isn't it basically detergent additives that differentiate the brands? :confuse:

Tim

ateixeira · August 2005

In many cases, yes.

-juice

krzyss · August 2005

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=9752&page_number=1

zman3 · August 2005

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I knew I had read that article but I was having a brain cramp trying to figure out where I had read it. I wanted to post a reference to it but I had no idea where to look. I thought I had read it on another forum, but it was C&D.

Karl

thallberg · August 2005

Karl,

Here's another link, from last month on this very website.
I should do a little research before I post.

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/specialreports/articles/106293/article.html

Tim

joyride21 · August 2005

it actually doesn't gum up the engine just everything in the fuel system. but it is a long term problem, and im not worried about seals at all. they will do just fine.

and to answer cheep fuel compared to good fuel, cheep fuel like Maverick, if you have that where you are, they will substitute some gas with a bit of water to keep the price down. places like shell and chevron don't, trust me its worth the extra 10-20 cents.

you also have to through out diesel because their fuel is basically mineral oil and fuel mixed.

Steve

fibber2 · August 2005

Interesting about them trying to move it up to 15%. IIRC, simple alcohols have a lower BTU content than a similar volume of gasoline, so the more they increase it, the more mileage could be impacted.

Alcohol is also hydroscopic - it has an affinity for water. Juice might be able to comment, but I think I remember the big problem that they had in Brazil when they went 100% ethanol was with metal corrosion. The fuel grabbed and held so much water from condensation in the underground tanks that it corroded pumps, lines, carb ports, etc. It is just one of those things - a little (say up to 10%) does wonders for scavenging and dispersing small amounts of residual water so that it can be injected and burn without notice. But go too high on the alcohol, and it starts pulling in water from new sources and cause trouble.

Steve

joyride21 · August 2005

I think you are getting alcohol and ethanol mixed up, alcohol is what you find in cheep gas along with ethanol. good gas has very little to no alcohol. that is why cheep gas is bad for the lines.
And ethanol is actually a organic fuel, i think from corn.
Also, the government doesn't really care as much about the long term or the milage, but that it is organicly grown and its cheeper to make

Steve

garandman · August 2005

The mechanic said I need to replace the entire engine. An import from Japan. Someone made a point to me the other day that he felt that the VW engine is better for the american subaru. What should I tell my mechanic?

Tell someone you find their point curious since it is quite common to replace the "Wasserboxer" in the VW Vanagon with a Subaru engine. The 2.5's are blowing headgaskets but if you replace them before you burn it up they still last a long time - mine just turned 161,000.

I see people asking as much as 8900 for 1997 OBW's and I think they're smoking dope. It took us a month to sell a 97 with 83,000 miles two years ago for $6,300. If I had to sell mine today I'd ask $3,500 and hope I got $3,000.

OTOH my sister-in-law has an OBW with 235,000 miles on it - 90.000 on a rebuild. You're going to have to think about how much you drive, what else needs replacing, and how much you like the car. There are lots of doors, hatches, hoods, engines trans etc ob eBay so your car is worth a lot more than zero.

krzyss · August 2005

"And ethanol is actually a organic fuel, i think from corn."

It is the stuff that makes you drunk. It can come from many sources - grapes, potatos, wheat, fruits and that I read wikipedia from petroleum too. You just need some yeast for fermentation.

Enjoy responsibly.

C2H50H

Krzys

PS Methanol might be enjoyed too but it gets dark wile drinking really soon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol

jeremyt1 · August 2005

Well, the shop says what could only be anyone's worst nightmare...... They claim somehow the polartiy of the battery was reversed and everything blew. The alternator is toast and the engine managment module for sure. They are recommending that I replace those and then what else may have blown.

Is there a way the alternator could have surged to cause this? I can't help feeling that the mechanic isn't finding the correct source of this, as know I didn't cause the polarity to be reversed.

lfdal · August 2005

If you're the one that replaced the battery and know for sure the polarity's correct, then that cannot be the problem, period. I'd ask the mechanic to show me how the battery was hooked up. I suppose anything's possible - but if the mechanic can show you how that battery was connected when the car was towed in and it doesn't jive with how you know it was hooked up, something's amiss.

If the alternator lost its regulator, that could cause a much higher than normal voltage condition that could have blown any device that was turned on at the time. Some devices would withstand an over voltage condition better than others, i.e. a blower motor, w/w motor, those tend to be more robust.

Any solid state device - engine computer, dash module, etc could well be toasted if the fuse didn't blow in time.

BTW - it's just possible that the engine management computer is electrically protected against that happening. Only someone at Subaru could tell you that. I doubt that any of the Subaru dealer's mechanics would know. If they wanted to they could contact the factory for you to find out. May be worth pursuing to save some money. We use equipment that's got over voltage and reverse polarity protection frequently. It's not rocket science, nor is it new technology.

Sorry its going so poorly for you, keep us posted.

Larry

jeremyt1 · August 2005

Thanks Larry. I'll look into further whether the ECU was protected. The mechanic is claiming that it isn't.

Just to clarify on the polarity issue: He's NOT claiming that it was hooked up improperly when he recieved it, but that it must have been at some point prior. Knowing what I did, I don't think that happened. This isn't the first battery I've installed or anything, that isn't rocket science either!!

stevenm1 · August 2005

I have a 98 Legacy wagon with an unusual problem. When it is hooked up to a trailer, all the instrument panel lights go out when the headlights are turned on. It does have the electronic device converting the tail/stop/turn light system from the 5-wire system on the care to the standard 4-wire tail light system on the trailer.

xwesx · August 2005

Yeah, I cannot see how that would cause the problem you describe, especially with the symptoms noted. I would be much more inclined to believe a voltage regulator problem. As for the damage done; cannot comment, but if the ECU is not protected, then I'd call that a manufacturing defect! Sheesh, that thing should be double, triple, and doubled-again protected against any such possible (and quite plausible!) occurances....

Someone just recently posted about hooking a battery up backward - I'm not sure if it was this thread, but symptoms were not anything like yours.

-Wes-

xwesx · August 2005

Sounds like something is possibly wired inccorrectly and drawing too much current - either on the car or the trailer. Have you checked the wiring in/around the harness to see if any are warm, or had someone look at the lights themselves to determine what is happening on the trailer-end? Also, is this happening with the trailer hooked up or all the time?

stevenm1 · August 2005

Seems like if a circuit is drawing too much current, it would blow the fuse. All the lights including those on the trailer and car work fine except the instrument lights are off. When the trailer is disconnected, the instrument lights come back on.

fibber2 · August 2005

think you are getting alcohol and ethanol mixed up

No, they are one and the same.... Think basic carbon chain compounds:

methane (CH4) ===> methanol or methyl alcohol (CH30H)
ethane (C2H6) ===> ethanol or ethyl alcohol (C2H50H)
propane (C3H8) ===> propanol or propyl alcohol (C3H7OH) in one of two possible 'isomers', or hydroxyl/carbon locations, hence isopropyl alcohol

bad ascii drawing:

H H
| |
H-C-C-OH
| |
H H

Can't quite get those single bonds to line up, but hopefully you get the idea!

Part of the deal with "reformulated" gasoline is an attempt to control the vapor pressure (evaporation rate) and to provide more than enough internal oxygen to ensure complete combustion. Ethanol, derived by the fermentation of corn (or most any grain or fruit) was first used in the late '70's / early '80's, but replaced with compounds like MTBE. When that was found to be a groundwater pollutant, it was back to alcohol, which we have an abundant supply of in this country. In the NE, I believe it is at 10% in all grades of gas, at all dealers.

Now the economics due to high volumes may have changed, but for a time it took more than a gallon of foreign imported oil (farm equipment, transportation costs, etc.) to produce a gallon of ethanol. So it was neither a 'cheap' fuel additive, or an answer to curbing foreign dependence. I bet Colin could help me out here with the facts today!

Steve

andymele · August 2005

The burning smell is probably caused by the fact that many -- my mechanic once said most -- Subarus seep oil from a gasket below the timing belt area. The oil eventually blows back into the junction of the two exhaust headers, which is diabolically situated just perfectly for the purpose, and oxidizes off, sometimes with visible smoke. I had this problem with a '98 Outback. My 2002 doesn't do it. Yet. It DOES, however, have the shuddering/juddering/chattering clutch problem. Inexplicably, it became much reduced when I put new tires on the car. The old Dunlops were kinda loosey-goosey, and the floppy sidewalls may have allowed for an elasticity in the drive train that amplified the existing condition. Just a theory... Meanwhile, I am very grateful to learn how many people have this problem, and somewhat appalled that Subaru didn't fix it, apparently, till 2003. I'm gonna try the motorcycle chain oil on the linkage. The Big Fix is too pricey, and it frankly bugs me that they expect us to pay that without a recall of some sort.

Thanks for all the great thoughts,
Andy

Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

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