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For the first time since last year it was warm enough to drive with the window partly down. I also heard a noise I forgot about since last year, it sounds like a distant pinging noise. Awhile ago I tried using mid grade gas with no difference. That's why I'm wondering if it really is a cylinder ping that I'm hearing. When I had it at the dealership a few months ago for a slight head gasket leak I had them check it, they didn't notice the noise. Power and mileage seem fine. I wonder if anyone else has heard this? I seem to notice it after shifting (automatic) into high gear. With the radio on low it wouldn't even be noticeable.
-juice
Cheers
:shades:
My lovely 2000 OB ltd has had ongoing brake issues since about '04. We have replaced the rotors now 3 times in the last year. Its got an awful shake when I hit the brakes and the new pads and rotors only remedy things for about 2 months max.
Anyone have the golden secret to this issue???
Thanks a ton,
~Emily
Anyway it was suggested to me to get the car up to about 70 - 75 mph, then apply the brakes hard, but not so hard as to engage the antilocks, till your speed is about 15mph - DON'T STOP (unless you have to to avoid hitting something or so Mr. Policeman can hand you your ticket), repeat 2 more times. Also try to make your braking while on flat or going downhill.
The theory, which I don't fully understand, is that the rotors are not warped, but the brake material has built up on the rotors causing the 'shakes', by doing the above you 'redistrubute' the material evenly over the pad or burn it away.
If you try it, please post your results.
Tkanic's suggestion has merit. The trick here is not to come to a complete stop with your foot on the brake pedal.
Despite the common use of the term 'warped', the disk actually has a variation in thickness caused by the transference of brake pad material onto the rotor at a single spot. This can occur if you commonly come off a highway onto a short exit ramp, and sit at a traffic light with your foot firmly on the brake for a minute. The hot disk cooks the pad material, burning it onto the surface.
The other common problem (which drives me nuts) is when I leave the car sit outside for a week, and the pads leave a severe rust spot. Hard braking as described will sometimes scuff it smooth again, but once I had to have the rotors turned, and the pads replaced under warranty, it was so severe.
Steve
Another possible cause that has come up repeatedly on these forums is the problem of overtorqued wheel bolts. If your repairer uses an airgun/rattlegun to refit tyres be very suspicious. They should be hand torqued to specified values (I can't remember what these are but someone will leap in with correct measurement).
If overtorqued, the rotors have an uneven tension pulling them laterally, resulting in high spots. This is exacerbated by a build up of braking material adhering to the metal of the disc.
You can look for the high spots yourself by very firmly chocking all wheels, putting the car in neutral and then removing one wheel at a time. Spin the disc by hand looking for uneven-ness in the small scratches you can see on the surface. If you place a firm support near the wheel you can prop a felt pen fractionally away from the disc, and slowly spin by hand, adjusting the clearance until the pen only touches occassionally. More simply a thumb nail (if you don't bite your nails) can be applied in the same way to detect high spots. The gretest distortion is likely to be toward the outer edge of the disc.
Remember to check both sides of the disc but be very careful as to how you look at the rear face of the disc. A hand mirror and bright light is useful.
I personally found the Outback to be more susceptible to brake rotor distortion than other vehicles I have owned, but suspected this was caused by overtightened bolts from a couple of tyre changes.
A couple of other factors may be relevant. If you brake hard and do not modulate your braking as you come to a stop, the pad area and disc surface immediately underneath cannot dissipate heat as efficiently as the open area of the disc. Differential cooling of the metal can introduce distortion. Practically this means that you should brake earlier, progressively easing off the brakes as you come to a rest. If you have braked hard and come to a complete stop, ease the vehicle forward a little to dissipate heeat from the pads.
You can check whether you are braking too hard by thinking about the car's pitch attitude as you come to a stop. If the nose is pitched downward, you are braking too hard too late. If it essentially flat, this suggests you are modulating the braking effectively.
Cheers
Graham
Steve
Funny that you asked about my TPS problems (folks, this is not aboat Office Space movie). I was just doing more web searches as the problems reappeared again. In short, dealer replaced TPS due to drivability problems and the P0122 code in 2004. The TPS was not the isssue as the problems and the code come back several times. It comes and goes. Very hard to drive as the engine buckles and the tranny shifts insanely hard at wrong points. I did the full troubleshooting thing by the FSM, full 4 pages of connection checking, with no results. It's either an intermittent connection problem or a bug in the ECU software that interprets some data as wrong reading from TPS.
If anyone else has a solution, please let me know.
See if they can provide you with details of this procedure with the next set of rotors you get.
-juice
This last weekend on a 300 mile trip, at night at about 55 Deg, it did it (not air on), and because of the roads I was at that speed and slightly uphill for a long time and it did it several times, then it did it every time I was at that speed. The next day we never got up to that speed again so I did not notice the problem.
The following day on our way home it started again, I could feel it again but because the road was slightly down hill it was not as noticeable. But after about 3 hours of driving I came to a stop but the RPM remained at about 2K RPM. I had to put my foot hard on the break to over ride the force of the engine, and then when the speed dropped to about 5 mph, the RPM suddenly dropped to about 600 RPM and the car stopped instantly because I had my foot on the break so hard. When I started, the car surged forward to about 2K RPM again and I had to hold it back with the break. It had the jerky /surge feeling at 62-70 MPH for the next 150 miles and it had the high RMP problem every time I would stop. When I could feel the RPM not coming down when I let off the accelerator, I put it in neutral and the RPM remained at 2K RPM for about 5 seconds the then slowly dropped down to about 1200, the suddenly dropped to 600.
After the car sat over night, the car surged forward when I stepped on the accelerator but the “sticking” at 2K RPM did not re-occur, nor has the jerky feeling at 62-70.
The accelerator on this car has always acted strange. When I am going down a rather steep hill in 2nd with the accelerator slightly on, then suddenly let off the accelerator, the RPM increases about 500 then suddenly drops to where you would expect it.
Of course the dealer can never duplicate the problem, but the transmission was replaced for another reason and the problem went away for about 6 months.
Does anyone have any ideas?
I've also 'always' had the piston slap when the engine is really cold (lower than 25F). Sometimes sounds like a diesel. I've kept 5W30 in it to help with this problem.
Mark
2003 Legacy
34,000 miles
Seems fairly early for a problem with either of these parts, but there are always outliers!
If you have had this problem inspected before, you could probably take it to a different place and specifically ask them to test the vacuum system for leaks or other problems; and maybe even get them to do it under warranty. The 2000+ RPM surging issue sounds like a real safety problem...
The slight (few hundred) increase/decrease cycles in the RPMs is the torque converter locking and unlocking. It typically will not unlock (given a constant speed, incline... basic load on the drivetrain) unless some factor changes. Barring anything else, perhaps something is putting more resistance on your movement? If you are right on a torque threshold, it might be jumping back and forth because the system "thinks" it is okay to lock the converter, then oops... too much load, unlock it... okay, lock it. I have never experienced the problem or heard of it, so my guess is that there is either something causing increased resistence (brakes, gears, tires.... something) or the throttle input / fuel-air mix is changing (this goes back to the vacuum). Anyway, just tossing out my musings. That is what I get for trying to think at 0100.
It might be under the hood, where the fuses are.
-juice
It could be anything, there are tons of different codes.
-juice
What happened is that the car detected that the wheels were turning at different rates, which should happen often, so the car assumed that a speed sensor was bad.
The loss of the CC was so anoying in this car that I now carry a OBD2 scanner so I can clear the code right away and I can use the CC. I find this car uncomfortable to drive long distances w/o the CC.
Trusted mechanic tells me either replace the engine and short block for $5k or ditch the car. I'm thinking ditch the car - the car is aged, other parts will start to go bad on it (will need new tires in another 5-10k) might as well start anew.
I'd almost go with a Subie again except for the fact that trusted mechanic tells me that every other week there's a subie in his shop (he specializes in toyota)requiring this work. I know two people personally who had to drop in new engines into their Outback/Legacies...before 100k?!! I don't really want to set myself up for failure again. Any thoughts?
I was also told that older Subies (over 75k) burn oil, mine sure did. Is this common? Is the engine/head gasket problem also as common as my experience/my mechanic says?
Despite this, I am still reconsidering buying a new Outback (2006) - it's just so darn affordable compared to others out there ( currently comparing to RAV4 and Highlander Hybrid - pricey but attractive for someone moving into their 40s!). I've also really enjoyed how it has handled in snow, mud and off-road (I was in Death Valley during last spring's flower explosion and because the campsites were all full, the ranger recommended we drive up one of the canyon roads and camp up there after he gave a rave review on the Outback vs. most SUVs on such roads! Hard to turn your back on a Ranger's opinion!!!) I also can't complain about maintenance, all I ever replaced was the radiator - everything else (tires, spark plugs etc) I consider normal wear and tear. I think it all came out to about $9k over 8 years - not bad in my opinion.
BUT the new Outback doesn't get much better mpg than my current one (a bit of a disappointment really why isn't subaru on the hybrid bandwagon??) AND believe it or not, it has worse pick-up than my 98??!! How is that even possible?? CR also says that the new Outback is sluggish, so it isn't just my imagination. I would be okay with slower pick-up if it had commesurate increase in mpg but it doesn't (making the Highlander Hybrid look real appealing). Lastly, I am very concerned about exposing myself to the possibility of having to replace the engine earlier than 100K.
I am tempted by Toyota given its legendary dependability, but the Hybrid is a bit of a risk (not to mention a 10k+ investment) and I am unsure of its off-road capability (primarily badly eroded fire roads). But I love that it is a hybrid (though the mpg isn't what I would like that's the trade-off for the space and ground clearance vs the Prius) - the body style could stand to be cooler in my opinion!
Does anyone have any input on any or all of these issues? I'd appreciate it, I am tearing my hair out trying to figure out what way to go...Subie or Toyota??! Don't even mention the RAV4 - useless without the V6 and no real numbers on mpg with it anyways, but I am guessing below 20 and I'll be doggoned if I go with a new car with WORSE gas mileage than my current one - I mean oil is a finite resource folks! The Forrester is an interesting option BUT the seats are so incredibly uncomfortable I can't imagine driving for 5 hours to Bishop for climbing in it!
Thanks!
K
As for Subie and hybrids, they are manufacturing advanced batteries that Toyota will be using in their hybrids (again IIRC), and I think I recall seeing a subie prototype hybrid, which is sort of like a mini Legacy, not a impresa however, the styling is much more Legacy like.
For power, the turbo seems to have more then enough, but the non-turbo could use more, but with AWD and 27 mpg (in my experence w/ a 05i) it's really hard to ask for more power at that level of efficency.
The seats w/ the 05 OBi are also not the most comfortable, but your butt finally adapts to it (not the other way around), I'm just glad I'm not overweight a much wider butt and I see it could be very unconfortable.
If you are worried about oil being a finite resource then you should consider a flex fuel car and see if you can get E85 near you, subies are not flex fuel cars, at least the 05's are not, but I beleive that they can be converted to it, I have heard a suggestion that larger fuel injectors w/o 'telling' the onboard computer would do it, but if you want to be green, might as well start as you mean to go on and buy one right from the start.
Your Outback has the old Dual Overhead Cam engine. Outbacks have been propelled by single overhead cam engines since 2000. I have heard the SOHC design is more reliable (but Subaru recommends using their cooling system additive to help preserve the head gaskets).
Regarding the new Outback vs Toyota, I can't say anything bad about Toyotas. My wife's 04 Camry has been a gem.
My 06 Outback 2.5i AT is only a month old, but is incredibly smooth riding. I have been averaging 24 MPG. My 05 Legacy 2.5i (5spMT)averaged about 28 MPG, so I am a little disappointed with the Outback MPG (I think it's largely due to the auto trans). The Legacy also performed better with it's 5 speed manual trans.
The hybrids are intriguing. I know two people with Prius' s. They both love the cars and are very happy with the MPG. The Highlander won't do as well, and the price is very high (at least $6000 higher than an Outback). Even with gas at $3/gallon it will take well over 100,000 miles of fill-ups to make up for the incremental cost of the hybrid.
If you are considering the RAV4, you should compare it to a Forester, not an Outback. The Forester is less expensive and performs better (quicker and more efficient) than the Outback.
I figure we won't see a Subaru Hybrid here in the US for at least 18 months. They say they're are working on it, but seem to be far away from having one ready for sale.
Subaru is currently offering $2000 rebates on the Outback and Forester. That may make your decision a little easier.
Let us know which way you go.
Jim (gearhead4)
Are you looking at auto or manual? I drove an '06 Ltd auto and it sure had a lot more pep than my '96 auto! If you are driving a decent mix of highway and city, you should get better than 21 mpg out of a new 2.5. I am sure you must have been getting better than that when your 98 was newer. I was getting a solid 27 mpg out of my '96 2.5 for the first year I had it, and it was at 83K when I purchased in 2000. If it is burning oil, then your compression surely is not as good as it once was and therefore mileage will suffer. Once broken in, I would expect 24-25 quite consistently out of a base '06 Outback.
In the end, it should be whatever fits your needs best, but do not allow the current head gasket problem to factor too heavily against Subaru as you will most likely not have that problem again with either a new one or your '98 should you opt for gasket replacement.
More likely due to the break-in, When I got my 2.5i I got low miliage, it creapt up to the 27 over 10,000 miles - yes it took that long.
Why?
As for your engine concerns, the Phase I DOHC engine used in your 98 Outback has gone through a few major revisions since it's inception. The headgasket problem primarily afflicted the earlier models (Phase I) and earlier Phase II models. Although Subaru never did a recall, they were very aware of this problem and have addressed it in later designs.
As for the pick-up, did you drive a 2006 model? The OB gained quite a bit of weight with the 2000 model change and then lost some in 2005. I'm not sure where it stands relative to the 98 model, but it may still be a tad heavy. Also, are you taking into account that any 2006 you test drive is still not broken in and will be a bit more sluggish.
If at all possible, I would use the $5K to purchase another OB rather than put it into your current model. As you suspected, you'll probably run into other wear and tear items.
Also something else to think about with the Prius -- Consumer Reports did an analysis recently on the cost-effectiveness of Hybrids and most of them did not come out ahead in terms of gas savings. Of course there are some assumptions with that analysis, but it shows that unless you're absolutely enamored with the "green" side of hybrids, you really don't make up for it at the pump.
Ken
Not sure if it was a recall per se, but I have an '01 Outback with the Phase II and they did extend an 8yr/100Kmi warranty on the head gaskets to some cars (including ours), on the condition that the car had to have Subaru's special coolant additive put in at a dealership by a specified date.
Thanks in advance.
Maddy
they replaced the air filter, did some other "stuff" and it has been fine since.They dont' know what they did to fix it actually. I had no idea there was a recall on the O2 sensors until I saw your posts and this explains why they did not charge me the first time they "fixed" it.
We do experience this flux in RPMs that you are referring to with the torque converter when we are going over the high bridge we use to get home. the change from level to climb to down hill to climb seems to be tricky for the TC to handle smoothly. Can this behavior be eliminated?
vicki
I have an 06 Outback Ltd Wagon 2.5i 5 MT and had almost the same problem. The engine would rev at 2500 rpm when the clutch was engaged during the first few minutes after a cold start (this WAS NOT a cold idle issue). I brought it to my dealer three times and they kept telling me SOA knows about the problem and is working on a solution. Finally, last month they said SOA had a partial fix. They sent my ECU to Indiana and reflashed it. Sure enough, the problem went away. (Actually, on occasion, I still get an occasional rev when I make a hard left like when pulling into a parking space, and I've depressed the clutch; I guess that's why the dealer told me Subaru had only a "partial fix." This sounds more like your problem) You can find a lot more on this at subaruoutback.org and search for phantom rev problem. --Andy in Vermont
I've just replaced mine after getting a code indicating that it had failed.
-juice
Thanks for the information and the link to subaruoutback.org. It sounds like others are having identical problems. Reflashing appears to be the fix at this point.
Cheers,
Maddy
Since about 4 months ago our '01 occasionally smells of burnt coolant when it returns to the garage, so I suspect we too may be on our way to head gasket replacement, but we have about 68K miles now and there is no record of anything being done under warranty by the previous owner (and it was still under warranty when we got it).
If anyone can give me some insight into the problem I would greatly appreciate it.
John
Have you had the cooling system pressure tested?
Jim
Don
John
I ordered the Tester last week and will test system as soon as I receive it. I did stopp by a couple parts houses just to see if they performed that type of testing. They didn't. I could take it to a shop but I'd have to tow it because I never know how far I'll be able to trive (5 miles or 15 miles) before the water overflows out of Overflow bottle. Will test as soon as tester arrives.
John