Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

carterdsc · April 2006

Hi Don,
There's no white foam in the bottle. Also, no water in the oil. So far I have replaced the radiator, thermostat and the headgaskets. Have not replaced the water pump only because it's making no noise. My thoughts are to do a slow fill of the system with just water, the remove the output side of the hose from engine to radiator to see if water is indeed being pushed thru the engine. I did try forcing water back thry=u the engine via the output side but all I got was a lot of wet rags and water spewing back out of the hose. Saw very little water (trickle) coming out of the inpu side (lower left side of engine. Talked to a certified subaru mechanic. He said that water should have flowed from top to bottom without that much restriction? So, will fill it up and run it without the output hose disconnected to see what happens.

xwesx · April 2006

"I did try forcing water back thry=u the engine via the output side but all I got was a lot of wet rags and water spewing back out of the hose. Saw very little water (trickle) coming out of the inpu side (lower left side of engine."

Wait, you did this with the thermostat removed on the input side and you still only got a trickle? There should have been a steady flow of as much water as you put in... no resistance. You definitely have a block somewhere. When the head gaskets were being replaced, did you or anyone check the coolant manifold to see if it may be gummed up somehow? I'd sure hate for the blockage to be in the engine block or heads....

wilkich · April 2006

A couple of the posts were very helpful in getting my gasket/seal issue answered. The question now is whether it's worth the two grand total for the 90k service and the seal/gasket fix. We use the car for commuting now but at the end of the school year (late June), our 97 OB with 91k miles will essentially be used very little over the summer and we will begin commuting in our Pilot next school year. (Oddly, the gas mileage is about the same in both vehicles but that's another issue :confuse: )

One thought is to let it die and buy a another car when we absolutely need it. (Possibly in about a year) Right now, I just can't see putting the $ into a car we will rarely be using. However, on the other hand, we could do all the fixes and have a car that runs another 100,000 miles. I guess the real question is what's the worse case scenario if the front engine seals go? Is it worth taking the chance over the next couple of months?

Thanks,

u136646 · April 2006

New to this forum. But has anyone discussed the hot rubbery smell that comes from an 2000 Outback of this age. Had local dealer look it up and down with no luck. Some say it may be the catalytic converter. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Car runs fine with 95K on it. Just smells sometimes.

xwesx · April 2006

The descriptor "hot rubbery smell" just is not clicking anything in my brain, but is it extremely pungent... somewhat like fresh tar? That could be a front differential leaking onto the exhaust system. I guess I just need more, or alternate, info.

xwesx · April 2006

Well, if you are not going to use it much, then perhaps it is not worth the fix... but if you planned to replace it with another car that would be used no more than it, then I still say it would unless you plan to buy a used $2K car. The likelihood of the gaskets/seals up and failing on you in the next two months or even a year are slim.

To give you a comparison, my cam seals and valve cover gaskets (I think you have the same things leaking on yours) began leaking (noticably) about 3 months after I drove my car home from the dealership (Russ-Dean Ford in Pasco, WA). Mistakenly for me, I assumed competency at this dealership since my father had made many (new vehicle) dealings with them in the past without incident. But, they had overfilled the oil by AT LEAST a quart! Well, needless to say that even after discovering the problem only 300 miles into my ownership, it was too late. At first they just leaked a little (Oct '00), but by July of '03 I was having to put 3 quarts of oil in between every fuel up! That is about 1 quart every 100 miles. I was finally able to secure a friend's garage for a week to pull the engine and make the necessary repairs. This increase in leakage was gradual - there were no big jumps - but constant.

So, I imagine the course you are on to be similar to this. This is a scheduled repair, not an emergency. I would take that over a headgasket failure anyday!

kevinfoc · April 2006

Vehicle has 108K. When backing up and turning, I hear a low freq. grumbling noise that appears to be coming from the rear. I do not hear this when moving forward. Reading this forum, I have read about problems with the differential that might be causing this. Others have told me it might be the CV's. Any possible thoughts?

guzda53 · April 2006

HI,
My wife has a 2004 Outback Wagon. Tire size is 225x60-16. I have a great set of Camaro tires, size is 235 x 55 -16. anybody know if I can use 'em on the Subaru Outback?

Thanks,

guzda

paisan · April 2006

You'll need a complete replacement. The "daughter" unit is proprietary to the "parent" unit.

-mike

ateixeira · April 2006

Change the gear oil in the rear diff, you'll know right away.

It's easy, just 2 bolts.

VERY IMPORTANT - open the TOP bolt first, that's the fill hole, and if you can't get it out and have drained what's in there, you won't be able to fill it up unless you flip your car upside down. :surprise:

Inspect the fluid that you drain. I bet it's either clowdy, mikly, or black. It should have been changed twice by now but most people forget.

I had fluid in my Miata that looked more like milk chocolate than oil. At the time it was 8 years old, and just 26k miles, but still it was nasty.

Look there first. You only need 1 quart, about $4, so that's the cheap fix to try first. You may need an hand-held oil pump, about $8.

-juice

kevinfoc · April 2006

Thanks for the quick response. I will try your recommendations, because I don't think the last services I had on the vehicle included checking the diff oil; and your recommendations will be a lot less expensive than a new diff.

ateixeira · April 2006

It's certainly worth a try.

Found some instructions for you, this should be similar:

http://www.techguys.ca/howto/differential_fluid.html

You need one quart of 75w90 or 80w90.

-juice

jfl · April 2006

I don't know about '93 Subarus, but my 2000 diffy fill & drain plugs had a 1/2" (half inch) square "socket" (female). The proper wrench is a 1/2" breaker bar. They are often very tight from the factory.

Removing the plug was: position the breaker bar, set a jack to the handle of the breaker bar, raise the jack hoping the plug breaks free, if not, bounce on the car to apply additional downward pressure ... repeat the process with the drain plug. (It'll be much easier the next time around.)

Oh, if the breaker bar has too much play in the plug, use shims to reduce the play.

HTH,

Jim

cptplt · April 2006

http://www.miata.net/cgi-bin/tirescgi
diameter is actually smaller on your Camaro tires so thats ok except your speedo will be slightly off but not by anything significant.
width may be a problem though with rubbing issues, the 235s seem almost an inch wider than the 225s on most tire models of that size they carry at Tirerack which is surprising.

subarujon · April 2006

Okay, I knew this would get some attention...I mean I finally changed the oil in my 2003 Outback LL Bean MYSELF. I had the free dealer oil changes upfront and then I just let the dealer or just recently the quick change places do it. I thought the process of squeezing underneath the Subie and struggling with the drain plug and oil filter would be too frustrating, but I was wrong. It was a snap. Everything was very accessible from under the front bumper. One hassle....those plastic clips on the splash pan. What is the most efficient way to pop those puppies out....prying with the screwdriver worked but there must be a better way. And then trying to reinsert the things...they are stubborn.

Thanks,

Jon

P.S. I still long for the days with the old Subies that you could put in true 4WD lo and hi.

fibber2 · April 2006

Talk about attention grabbing headlines!

Get a mini screwdrive under the center portion and pull out first, then pull put the body. Replace in reverse order - body first, then push in center to spread the tines.

Steve

firstov · April 2006

When I opened my LLBean hood and turned on AC I hear very loud high pitched sound. The car is 3.5 years old w about 31K miles.
The air from vents is not cold when AC is running, but I can hear it kick in when pushing AC button. Please help.
Thanks!

Mr_Shiftright · April 2006

probably the two conditions are not related directly. If you AC clutch kicks in, you have at least SOME refrigerant in the system, but perhaps not enough. The high pitched noise could be a bearing in the idler pulley, if in fact your AC belt runs with an idler pulley. If it doesn't, some other accessory may use an idler pulley, such as power steering, etc.

So I'd look for two separate problems here.

kerry2 · April 2006

Just this evening my '99 Outback's temp spiked HOT HOT with a slight clacking sound from the engine. I pulled over, raised the hood and (1) no leaks, (2) oil OK, (3) anitifeeze OK, and (4) no apparent wiring disconnects. When it cooled, I restarted "just for a minute" and it sounded OK, but towed it to the dealor "just in case".

First problem I've ever had, save for that clacking below until the car warms up that everyone seems to get. Car has 145,000km on it. What do you think the dealor will say?

orangelebaron · April 2006

I replaced both front headlights after they both burned out last August with less than a year on the 2005 OB. Now one burned out again.
WHAT is going on?
It's under warranty... but still.... it's the weekend and if I am pulled over, I only get 24 hours to fix it.
I'm not going to pay for it myself after seeing how expensive they are.
Subaru should give us extra bulbs to keep in the car.

tkanic · April 2006

I haven't had this problem, but it does seem common.

I have also found that the daytime running lights + parking lights are more then bright enough for night driving, and in many conditions you can actually see further this way (headlights through too much light in the foreground, which causes your pupels to constrict, limiting your sight of the further stuff - but just try it it works). Also this low power mode should also increase the life of the bulbs.

But also note that use of the daytime running lights + parking lights may be illegal in your state, though I don't know how anyone can tell.

gunny3 · April 2006

Ok, I'm about to toss a match in my 98 outback because of this. I'm having major trouble with engine cooling. An intermitent problem to be exact. I at first thought it was the dreaded head gasket issue that afflicts the 2.5 ltr, but the garage did a compression test and all was well. The changed my timing belts like I asked, tuned it up and changed the radiator cap. { X 2} It over heated on us the other day again, top radiator hose very hot, lowr hose cold, or ambient temp at the least. Could this be a bad thermostat ? I changed it myself last fall when this all started, but it did it right after I changed it. I know it's possible to get a bad part from the git go, and that from my experience so far, subaru's are VERY particular on parts. It doesn't do it all the time, thats what stumps mer and the garage. I drove it to the store not an hour ago and it acted just fine. The day it over heated I had been to Wendy's with the kids, sitting in the drive thru with the A/C on and the temp gauge never moved at all. I get home though and drop my boys buddy off and after I stopped, the needle climbed again. This has me going nuts. If it were the head gasket, it would do it everytime, same thing with the water pump, any ideas that will save my OBW from turning into a fireball !

tkanic · April 2006

A long shot is a partially clogged radiator and a cloapsed lower radator hose. The suction of the pump, not getting all it needs through the radiator, could pull in the lower hose, further restricting flow.

Mr_Shiftright · April 2006

You'll have to diagnose the overheating problem and cross your fingers you didn't damage anything the first time. Modern alloy engines do NOT like to be overheated, unlike the crude iron engines of years gone past. If you have no coolant leaks, you have either a circulation problem (clogged radiator, stuck thermostat, broken water pump) or a bad head gasket, I would guess

ateixeira · May 2006

If it passed a compression test, the latter is unlikely, right?

So probably a clog or a bad water pump.

-juice

Mr_Shiftright · May 2006

A compression test isn't the best for head gasket diagnosis. It is a crude "filter" and would only catch severe gasket failure.

Pressurizing the cooling system, or a cylinder leakdown test, is way better IMO. You'd either see bubbles in the coolant tank, or (gulp) coolant on the spark plugs when you removed them.

xwesx · May 2006

Possibly; but barring that it sounds to me like the water pump is on its way out. In other words, working intermittently. Mine did this 2-3 times over about 3 weeks before it finally quit altogether. In retrospect, there were certainly warning signs, but I did not know them at the time.

I am surprised the shop that replaced your timing belt did not have the foresight to replace the water pump while it was torn apart!

tkanic · May 2006

OK, I did have something like this happen to me in another car, just remembered. It was the impeller blades eroded away, which made it pump very poor. I got poor heat, but if I got the RPM's up I did get some. There was also a rust color in the antifreeze.

xwesx · May 2006

On mine, the blades looked perfect, but the problem was that the lube on the shaft bearing was leached out by a tiny coolant leak in the seal. So, as the bearing began to incur more friction, the impeller spun slower. High RPMs would usually bust it loose and it would work okay again, but one night it just would not spin fast enough to keep the engine cool. I tore it apart, replaced the water pump, and have had no more problems with overheating (even when I did have a head gasket problem!).

tkanic · May 2006

I believe the pulley is directly attached to the impeller, so if the pulley turns the impeller has to at the same rate. And the pulley is attached to the drive belt. So in this setup friction is not going to cause the impeller to go slower unless you were having belt spliiage. Another alternative is if the impeller shaft broke away from the pulley, and some force was transmitted by friction.

xwesx · May 2006

Not sure as I did not tear it all apart. But, I could turn the pulley while holding the impeller stationary (though it was tough to do) - so perhaps a weld or something did break. It makes sense to me that it is not a giveless system. After all, it would be quite unforgivable if you had to replace the heads in your engine just because a water pump siezed up (causing the pulley to sieze and the timing belt to break).

tkanic · May 2006

Actually the belt would be forgiving and absorbe the shock of a sudden seizure of a pulley, either by slipping or breaking.

Also it is not the timming belt, but a accesory belt, which commonly drives the alternator, power steering, airpump (emmission control), waterpump, compressor, and in some cars (not subies) a supercharger, if it breaks the car will still work, if the timming belt breaks you are dead in the water.

jfl · May 2006

On my 2000 Subie, the timing belt drives the water pump.

I'm told thermostats rarely fail but I still think it's strange to have it at the bottom of the engine. If it does fail, no coolant gets to the engine.

Jim

gunny3 · May 2006

Well I'm going down to the subaru garage in the morning and get a "real" subaru thermostat and rad cap. I plan on back flushing the entire cooling system with some of the prestone engine flush stuff. I feel that were the water pump on it's way out the results would be more consistent rathert than engine cooling being fine one day and crappy the next. I'm begining to think I might have some crap floating around in the system. I'll do it this saturday and then drive the thing a couple hundred miles and see what it does. Generally it has started getting warm periods within 100 miles of driving, but not always..... Drove it yesterday to the store and it did just fine, oh well. :confuse: :confuse:

tkanic · May 2006

I never saw a waterpump on a timing belt, but I just assumed it was on the accessory belt, perhaps mine is too then.

Did you consider a faulty sending unit? Perhaps the gauge or the temp sensor is not working correctly.

ateixeira · May 2006

The fan blades on my leaf blower caused the failure of that device for me. I just took it apart yesterday and found that to be quite a surprise. I figured it was the engine, but nope. The blades were rubbing.

-juice

xwesx · May 2006

Oh.... no no. These are driven by the timing belt. And, while the pulley IS on the "back side" of the belt, meaning it is a smooth pulley, not toothed, it would still break a belt very quickly if it stopped spinning simply by virtue of the heat generated. You'd have to stop the car VERY quickly to prevent it. If you have a 2.5L engine, adios valves! :surprise:

The sending unit is a possibility - especially if this really does happen randomly and has gone on for some time. :confuse:

gunny3 · May 2006

The temperature sender being bad is possible, but unlikely, because on a few occasions it has puked coolant out the recovery tank, when it did this, the upper rad hose was firm and hot and the lower was soft and cool, or at least cooler than I would have thought, I used my meter with a temp probe attached and the temp I read at the upper hose was around 170 {F} and the lower was around 70 or so. I find that very suspect to a bad t-stat. I would be under the impression that the lower hose should be at least around the normal operating temp of the engine. I really doubt the stock radiator is that efficient to cause a temp differential of 100 degrees. I also ordered a stock subie rad cap that is supposed to be here friday sometime. I would think that a water pump, at least in my experience with other engines, would show a gradual increase in temp, rather than being normal, then heating up out of the blue. I also plan on replacing the lower rad hose with something a bit more sturdy than the stock hose. I know the old small block chevy's had a wire coil in the lower hose to prevent hose collapse. Anyone know if something like that is available for a subie.

lfdal · May 2006

My wife was driving home last night and her 03 OBW w/43K experienced the following symptoms:

Cruising along at 70 mph on cruise control.

Started to go slightly uphill and transmission abruptly downshifted, then almost immediately upshifted, everything started to shake and clatter, and then the check engine light started to flash.....then the engine dies and she was able to thankfully coast to the breakdown lane. Anyone who has driven route 95 south, north of Boston, can appreciate how lucky she was to make it over there in one piece.

Called me on her cell and I asked her to try a restart and tell me what it did. She did that and said it was very hard to turn over, and wouldn't start.

I got to her location in about 20 minutes and got the same results.

About 1/2 later the flatbed turned up and the car started for the flatbed driver, but sounded really "clanky". Even the flatbed operator commented, "That don't sound good". Also smelled of oil.

This engine had two of the pistons replaced about 3 months ago to correct the piston slap.

Since then it has swallowed about a quart and a half of oil. Last Sunday I did check the level. It was about 3/4's of the way between the L and H mark. The antifreeze level was good as well.

It's at the dealer this morning, and I'm waiting for them to call back.

I'm guessing a head gasket blew, overtemped the engine and seized it. But I didn't smell any antifreeze or see any smoke out of the tailpipe.

Just curious if anyone has any thoughts before the dealer calls me.

TIA

Larry

ateixeira · May 2006

Sounds like they may not have done the rebuild properly when they changed the pistons.

At one point Colin shared the proper procedure for torqueing down the head bolts - it's incredibly complex. Perhaps they cut corners and it came back to bite them.

-juice

lfdal · May 2006

Actually, I think it bit my wife........ :P

lfdal · May 2006

Just spoke with the dealer.

They found a couple of mis-fire codes and inspected the heads and pistons on the drivers side.

According to the service writer, the problem is a valve guide that came loose, fouled the valve travel, and resulted in a bent valve. :confuse:

They're going to put a brand new head on this afternoon.

Has anyone ever heard of this happening on the 2.5L engines? I've never heard of it happening on any engine, period.

On the other hand, I've no reason to distrust the veracity of the service writer's staements. I believe she's always been squre with me in the past.

Larry

ateixeira · May 2006

Pretty wild, the only bent valves I've ever heard of were due to:

* water in the intake, an Isuzu off road took in water

and

* broken timing belt.

-juice

ebony5 · May 2006

When I picked up my car today (1996 OBW 2.5)the clock had reverted to the default showing 12:00 and all the presets on the radio had been lost. The car drove alright. I keep the vehicle in a garage in NYC and I am not the one who starts it up, an attendant does. I last drove it on Monday and all was normal. I imagine that something electrical happened while it was parked, and am wondering what it could be; is it an indication that I may soon need a new battery or some other situation. Any ideas of what caused this and what I should look out for?

lfdal · May 2006

Well, picked up the car last night and got to look at the cylinder head. The service writer showed me the old head. There were three metal "tubes", 2 in one cylinder, 1 in the other, that were protruding into the combustion chamber.

These, I'm assuming, were the actual valve guides. That's what the service writer said as well. They were by no means loose. The fourth was flush with combustion chamber.

I haven't seen a dismantled Subaru cylinder head before, but I'm assuming they're all supposed to be flush.

Wes, if you happen to read this, do you remember how your heads looked when you had them off?

BTW - The intake valve seats looked bright and shiny, the exhaust seats were dark, but still very smooth w/no deposits. The head's combustion chamber was black, but no carbon build up. The head had 43k on it.

This car has not been a money-maker for Subaru - so far its had almost $8000 of warranty work. On the other hand I'm gaining a lot of respect for Subaru's and the dealer's warranty support.

Larry

fibber2 · May 2006

Hey Larry,

Hardened steel valve stems riding in an aluminum head would wear the bores very quickly if it were not for these pressed in steel liners. But I have never heard of them coming loose before. Wonder if the head is not getting proper oil flow, and maybe the valve is intermittantly welding itself to the guide and pulling it free?

Steve

fibber2 · May 2006

Phil,

Sounds like on startup the battery voltage took a deep plunge, glitching the 'keep-alive' ckt in the radio. Do you drive it every day, or did it sit for a while? It could be time for a new battery, or something is now draining the battery while it sits?

The other possibility could be a bad capacitor (noise filter) in the electrical system. These provide a small 'reserve' of juice to sustain the keep-alive ckts during startup. I had to add a capacitor (1000uf) to a digital clock on a car once to keep it from daily reverting to 12:00.

Steve

lfdal · May 2006

Hi Steve,

Don't know about the oil flow, the valves were never unduly noisy on that side. But sounds like a viable theory.

Could it be the dealer inadvertantly blocked an oil port when they re-installed the head after doing the pistons on that side?

Very strange, never seen it happen before. Just glad there were no issues with getting it replaced under warranty.

Larry

xwesx · May 2006

E-gads, Larry, what will it be next?! Hahaha, though not laughing at your expense.....

Too bad you do not have any photos of the head. I did not think to take any shots of the combustion side of my heads when I had them apart.

Honestly, I did not see my valve guides because I had no intention of pulling the valves out in order to replace the guides. When the valves are IN the head and working properly, they seat fully into the head casting unless they are being pressed open by the camshaft node. Without the camshaft in there, it would take more than a thumb to press them open. But, with 13K+ on the car since the head gasket replacement, I have to assume that the guides are seated properly (i.e., no protrusion into the combustion chamber!). You must have had an oil flow issue in that head. If your newer engine is anything like mine, there are high pressure ports that bathe the camshaft bearings in oil (it does not have a sleeve or anything there... just the aluminum head against the camshaft w/ a thin layer of oil as the bearing surface) and, it looks to me, a passive return system back through the block to the pan. If something caused a reduction or blockage in flow, things would go sour REAL fast. How many miles on the '03 since the piston replacement?

ucfknight91 · May 2006

I recently purchased and had installed an OEM trailer hitch on my 2006 Outback Wagon. If any of you have this hitch, you might notice that it has a terrible design flaw. If you use a hitch mounted rack (like the Thule 995XT), you will notice that you cannot use a pin lock like the Thule STL (Snug-Tight Lock). If you have a $300 bike rack and a couple thousand dollars in bikes, it would be nice if you could easily and conveniently lock the bike rack to the hitch using this type of lock.

Some genius at subaru designed the hitch so that there is only about an inch of clearance between the bottom plate below the receiver and the small curved plate above the receiver. Therefore, since the lock is a little wider than an inch, it cannot fit over the pin between the two plates. From what I've read, its not just Thule - Yakima has a similar lock and the same problem.

Anyway, I've contacted the dealer to see if I can get my money back - which I think they will give me for the hitch, but they have to talk to the manufacturer about refunding me for labor that was already done to install the hitch and also the labor that will need to be done to remove the hitch.

So, my question is this - has anyone installed a Hidden Hitch (or other brand) on the 2006 Outback Wagon. If so, where did you purchase it and did you install it yourself or have someone else do it? Are you happy with it?

I'm kind of hoping that I can get the dealership to just swap out the OEM hitch for a Hidden Hitch (maybe if I buy it and bring it to them?) since they have to remove the old one anyway - that way they don't have to refund me the labor and I get a hitch that works with my bike rack.

We'll see.

Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

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