Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

ecycled · January 2008

Hello,

I am looking at a few used Subaru wagons.

OPTION 1 is single local owner 2002 Subaru Outback with just under 110,000 miles. It is being sold through a local dealership. What I've found using the VIN looks good. Asking just over $10k. From the standpoint of price it sounds good yet will this car last? What issues are known about this model?

OPTION 2 is a 2004 Subaru Outback listed as a "Certified Pre-Owned" with 68,000 miles yet it is $5k more than option 1 above. Is it worth the extra money for the "Certified" warranty? I'm a Grad student so keeping my monthly as low as possible is priority one.

Thanks.

ecycled
Salt Lake City, UT

paisan · January 2008

Are you pulling the engine + trans together? Or just the engine?

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

tbragg44 · January 2008

Engine only, so I don't have to mess with the half-shafts.

paisan · January 2008

Have you split the trans from the engine yet? That is usually the hardest part.

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

tbragg44 · January 2008

I believe that's the step I'm at now. Is there a special tool I need? BFH?

TB

paisan · January 2008

Well first thing make sure all the nuts and bolts are undone around the whole thing. That's the first key, the other thing is you need to wiggle and pull toward the front. Have you removed the radiator? You may try some small screw driverst to pry it away. It's just a lot of pulling and wiggling with a few friends.

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

fendertweed · January 2008

you're spending $5k to save 42,000 miles of wear & tear ... IOW, you'll pay $0.12 per mile extra for each mile saved on the '04.

Since it's almost impossible IMO/IME to run a modern car for $0.12 per mile, I'd say the lower mileage car is a better deal (as long as any major service that would be needed around 60-70k is already done).

Jon

xwesx · January 2008

Is this an auto transmission? I forget that from your original post.

In addition to the transaxle bolts and the two engine mounts, you need to remove the five nuts that attach the torque converter to the flex plate. There is a small rubber access cover on the upper, left (if looking at it) side of the engine block. Pop that off and rotate the engine one bolt at a time. Once that is done, just make sure the diagonal support that links the top of the transaxle to the car's firewall is removed, support the transaxle with a floor jack, and remove the engine. Like Mike said, wiggle the studs on the engine loose from the transaxle (they are about 3/8" long) as you are slowly lifting. Once the engine mount studs pop free from the cross member, it will be out.

Yes, make sure that radiator is out of there. I also needed to remove the carbon filter on mine, which was located on the inside of the frame rail, right next to the radiator. It did not look like it would be in the way, but sure enough it was.

Actually, I see you posted on 1/20.... I should be asking how it went!

tbragg44 · January 2008

xwesx, It hasn't gone anywhere yet! Freezing temps over the weekend, and I'm working in an open carport.

Then I went out of town for a couple days, so no progress.

Yes it's automatic. Torque converter bolts are out and TC spins freely with engine rotation. Firewall brace is removed.

I removed the 5 engine to transaxle bolts. I've only gotten 1 of the 2 nuts on the bottom removed. They're between the engine and the half-shafts. Very little access space, let alone maneuvering room for a ratchet.

And to top it off, the place I "bought" my used engine from has not communicated at all other than to let me know they received my payment. Supposed to be a 48K motor, but now I'm worried about what I'll actually get and when. Arrrgggghhhhh!!!!!!

Thanks for the suggestions. Hopefully more progress tonight.

TB

xwesx · January 2008

Ah, the nuts. Yes, you MUST take those off (even though there is, like you know, very little room), as the "bolts" are studs mounted in the engine block. They will not cause you any grief upon removing the engine. Once you get the engine mount studs to clear the cross member, the engine will slide easily forward and up so the studs can slip free of the transaxle. Those studs are about... 4"(?) long, so just be aware.

Sorry, I forgot that detail.

Good luck with it. I hope you are not going it alone, as that certainly makes the pull and install phases much more difficult.

Wacky weather this week. We had 12" of snow at the end of last week and over the weekend, with temps an amazingly warm 20-30 ABOVE zero! Then, bone-chilling winds as the temp dropped. Now it is -20F, but thankfully no wind.

All the best to you,

-Wes-

paisan · January 2008

When I did my first AT I wrecked the trans cause I didn't undo the torque converter bolts when we were removing the engine.

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

xwesx · January 2008

Ouch... that was an expensive lesson.

Totally off topic now, but despite the cramped quarters in the Subaru engine bay, pulling the 2.5L from it is a cake walk compared to wrestling the engine out of my '69 Econoline van. That one has to come out through the passenger side door.

ateixeira · January 2008

I believe on the assembly line they install that in from the front, before the front end it welded in place.

xwesx · January 2008

Well, if one had a hydraulic, mechanized puller (not cherry picker) that could latch on directly and pull it out the front without having to lift it up with a chain, it could be pulled that way by only removing the grill and radiator. With a cherry picker, the grill and radiator still have to come out, but then so does the passenger seat and the engine is then pulled forward, rocked back, up over the transmission, and out through the door. Sounds simple, but aligning it is a real pain and you have to work on a very smooth, clean floor in order to roll the picker back, forth, and around to get everything just right. I did it three times: once with my father, once with my father and a friend, and once solo.

The second time was the easiest.

The two times I pulled the Outback's 2.5L, I made sure to schedule a friend's help just for the extraction and insertion. The rest of the work was easy enough for one to do.

lexort · January 2008

Hello. New here, and I have a question. I just bought a used 2004 Outback wagon from a dealer who provides a 60-day warranty. The only thing I'm considering is a couple of backlights. One is on the "Cruise" button on the left side of the dash, and the other is the driver side seat heater switch on the center console. Since the dealer is 40 miles away I'm not convinced it's worth driving there for just those two things, but at the same time I figure if they'll fix them, why not let them. Are those something that can easily be changed by a hack like me or is it better to let a dealer do it?

thanks,

joe.

ateixeira · January 2008

Hmm, I've replaced some of the trim with wood pieces on a 2002 Legacy, it wasn't too bad. I don't think that would be too difficult.

40 miles is not that far, though.

stantont · January 2008

Hey,

I am about to change to synthetic gear lube (Schaeffer Supreme 293 gear lube) in my car. Did the rear diff easy; 1/2 inch drive to remove both drain and fill plugs. The transmission drain, though, is a plug on the bottom of the gear case with what appears to be a huge Torx (6-spline) drive. Anyone know what size Torx this is, and why Subaru chose to use that rather than a conventional square drive? I don't want to go buy the tool and then find I messed with something Subaru didn't want me to touch.

Thanks in advance.

Stanton

paisan · January 2008

They don't want folks to mess with it if they don't know what they are doing... I think that's the idea behind it. I have to buy one myself yet.

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

jbbwv · January 2008

TORX T-70 (1/2 in dr) is what you need. Try a search here: toolsource. Good prices to.

JB

stantont · January 2008

Thanks! I guessed that they wanted something that could be tightened to a higher torque than a standard 1/2 in square drive (Torx has 6 corners instead of 4). I noticed that the rear diff plugs were very tight ( no torque wrench on them, but it took an 18-inch breaker bar to move them).

I'll look for a T-70.

THanks again.

ic_designer · January 2008

The rear diff. plugs were very tight in my 02 Outback because the plugs had thread sealant (gray color) on them. I also needed to use 18" extension pipe on the 1/2' drive to loosen them. Since I noticed sealant on the thread, I put sealant on the back side of the thread just to be on the safe side. I am using Redline 75W90 GL-5 gear oil for front and rear diff.

Alland

ncc4 · January 2008

I have a 2007 Outback ( non-turbo ) and it's time to change the air filter. I've done this numerous times on different vehicles over the years, but the instrutions for the Outback call for the battery to be disconnected.

Has anyone changed the air filter that can explain why this is required, and what happens if you don't disconnect the battery.

Thanks
Nigel

tbragg44 · January 2008

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions and tips. It's out and sitting on the driveway. Replacement is due here by Tuesday or Wednesday, and hopefully it will go in next weekend. I plan to degrease the engine compartment while I have access.

It feels like the flywheel / trans shaft is loose in the front of the tranny. I can pull it out a bit, but I haven't tried to completely remove it. Is that normal?

Anything else I should check, inspect, or replace while I have total access?

Thanks again,

TB

tbragg44 · January 2008

I hope it's okay to post pictures on the board. Here are some shots of the internal damage.

It seems a valve broke, then broke other valves, then broke the piston, then broke the cylinder wall. But what broke the valve? Hmmmmmm...

TB

zman3 · January 2008

Wow. Cool photos. Thanks for posting them.

jackieb3 · January 2008

I can not find the gap information for NKG FR5AP-11 spark plugs for my 2005 Outback. Help!

ateixeira · January 2008

Agreed, thanks for sharing the informative pics.

jfl · January 2008

I can not find the gap information for NKG FR5AP-11 spark plugs

NGK pre-gaps their plugs. The last digit(s) after the dash is the gap in tenths of a mm.

So -11 equals 1.1 mm or 0.044".

Jim

bauer1234 · January 2008

I just had to replace the sunroof assembly in my '03 LL Bean Outback. The sunroof leaked and the entire headliner was ruined, and the entire back area of the car was soaked. It came home two weeks ago. In the next big rainstorm, it leaked again. Turns out the dealership hadn't reconnected one of the drain tubes. I was able to contain the damage this time by putting a tarp over the car until it could go to the shop; however, the amount of water that got in through the brand-new sunroof was not insignificant.

What I don't understand is why such a substantial amount of water is able to get in through a brand-new sunroof; presumably the seals are pristine and couldn't be in better condition.

The dealership is telling me that the sunroof is designed to let some amount of water through, and that the difference between the steel and the glass means the seal is never perfect. To me, this sounds like a big load of crap.

I can understand small amounts of water getting through, since a sunroof means the roof has been compromised, by definition. But *that* much water is flowing through my car every time it rains? That seems like a pretty foolish way to design a car.

Wondering if anyone knows anything about sunroofs, and if I'm just ignorant of sunroof science and the dealership is correct on this. I don't want to be unfair or unreasonable with them, but I also don't want this to happen for a third time.

Many thanks.

paisan · January 2008

The dealership is right, you have a significant amount of water flowing through your car through those drains. Essentially the water comes in the seal and into the tray around the edge then runs down through the drains and out the bottom of the car. If the drains are plugged or disconnected you'll get leaks.

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

bauer1234 · January 2008

bauer1234 · January 2008

Thank you. That is great to know, and very reassuring.

tbragg44 · January 2008

Well my replacement engine arrived yesterday. When initially contacted, the salvage yard said it was a 48,000 mile engine. My first look tells me, NO WAY!" They steam cleaned it pretty well, but missed some pretty large grease deposits, the heater hose connections have a pretty thick residue of decomposing rubber around the tips, and the timing cover bolts are covered with surface rust. My old engine had 125K on it, and those bolts still have the olive-green look of a new bolt.

Also, they ground off the left and right case serial numbers, as well as the number stamped into the top center of the block. Is this typical of buying a used engine? Or is the salvage yard trying to hide something or prevent me from getting the background info about this engine?

Have I been had? :lemon: ?

TB

paisan · January 2008

Grinding usually indicates an engine from a stolen car.....

I've seen rusted bolts on the front of the timing covers on newer engines so I wouldn't necessarily say it's a bad thing.

Overall I'd say it looks shady. Did you buy via CC? You may want to look into what protection they can provide. I had to do this with a transmission that never shipped to me in a timely fashion.

-mike

ateixeira · January 2008

Sounds shady.

I would call them, ask for a photo of the car it came from with the odometer showing.

mtbknob · January 2008

The other day, I went to turn on the A/C and noticed the air not getting cool. When I came to a stop, I cycled the system on and off, but didn't notice the RPMs changing or hear the compressor kicking in.
Decided to trouble shoot to no avail: Visually checked compressor on/off , did not engage. Checked connector, OK but no voltage. Fuse was good. Checked relay in main box (under hood) and it had 12vdc to it, but did not seem to have any 12vdc to any other contacts when dash control is turned on. I would check the relay but don't know what the polarity is on the energizing circuit.
Anybody have any ideas/same problem and fix? Paisan? juice?

ateixeira · January 2008

Wow, I know nothing at all about HVAC.

The only thought I had was some blown fuses still appear OK, but aren't. So I would change it. A fuse is just a few pennies.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2008

If your refrigerant level drops to too low a level, there's a pressure switch that will not allow your compressor to engage.

So I'd check the refrigerant to see if you have a leak.

tbragg44 · February 2008

"But wait," he said, "there's more!"

The left side exhaust and right side intake timing pulleys are both cracked, it has a brand new timing belt, but it appears out of time (marks on pulleys not lining up when #1 at TDC of compression stroke).

And the compression check (by hand, since it's still on the pallet) shows 40 - 50 PSI max on all 4 cylinders. Haynes manual says it should have 137 - 176 PSI.

:lemon: :lemon: :lemon: ???

dave1620 · February 2008

I just found my sunroof leak today. Had to remove 3 pieces of trim and a couple of brackets to lower the headliner enough to get a look see. The drain tube on the passenger side was loose. Water was dripping in thru the extra shoulder belt in the headliner.

Where are the drains in the sunroof, and where do the hoses exit the vehicle?

This is on an 01 Legacy GT wagon with dual sunroofs.

Dave........

jjcunningham · February 2008

Seems fairly obvious... engine run while seriously out of valve timing.... New valves, pulleys (must have run for a while) pistons etc will be needed...

jjcunningham · February 2008

Allo!!.. is that the engine with the pictures??

jjc

tbragg44 · February 2008

JJC asked,

Allo!!.. is that the engine with the pictures??

The pictures are of the engine being replaced. The problems I described are of the "used" engine I bought to replace the blown one.

TB

xwesx · February 2008

If the compression is that bad on the engine, I would be surprised if it even runs. At 40,000 miles, why would it need a new timing belt? No, this engine is bad news. I would give the POC back to the thief who sold it to you.

nunautnunquam · February 2008

Hi. I have a 1990 Subaru Legacy and need to replace the IACV. Can someone provide me with suggestions, pitfalls to avoid, what to expect etc. It appears that access is a bit limited. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Andy

wenderj1 · February 2008

Hi Guys,

I got my car back from Colonial Subaru in Danbury today with the problem fixed...here was the issue and the fix (and, btw, it was covered absolutely by my warranty!!!):

R&R tranny, disassemble and found reverse brake worn to metal and reverse piston O rings worn out, metal was all through tranny. Replaced reverse brake, O rings and valve body.

Sadly, my stupid tire pressure light is still blinking all the time, even with new tires and the dealer recalibrating the sensors...will have it disconnected and go the old fashioned way of looking at the tires and checking them

Thanks for all your help!

Jeannine

jcatlantic · February 2008

Hello all,

I've just gotten a new '08 Outback 3.0R and cannot figure out how to adjust the fog lights. The local dealer said they are not adjustable but this just doesn't make sense. Right now they are aimed so low that they are useless.

Any help in this regard would be greatly appreciated!

Many thanks,

JC

plim77 · February 2008

JC-

I have an 05 Outback...my fog lights are not adjustable. I've never owned or heard of any car that had 'adjustable foglights.'

The beams from fog lights are usually just below the headlights. Their purpose is to help illuminate the road in foggy conditions (not what's ahead of you).

Paul

jcatlantic · February 2008

Thanks for your quick reply Paul!

I know the fog lights are to illuminate the road and not what is ahead of me,

however, my fogs are aimed so low they are illuminating the road two inches in front of my bumper and cannot be seen unless you get out of the car!

The fogs in my '98 Outback are superb, bring up the edge of the road perfectly in the fog.

Our dealer has said they have had a number of complaints so I wonder if Subaru messed up on this design?

Also, our former Subaru mechanic (who won a number of awards in Subaru's competitions) said that fogs on earlier Subaru's are adjustable (maybe not easily, but that they can be adjusted).

Does anyone else have an opinion on this point? All ideas welcome!

JC

paisan · February 2008

Non adjustable. Like most foglights on cars these days they are merely a cosmetic help. You could try to pry the bracke forward which would raise them, but really a lot of people think they are driving lights which the lenses are not setup to be.

-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host

Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

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