Stop here! Let's talk about brakes

fleetwoodsimca · March 2002

You can cut down on waste when bleeding the system by suctioning out most of the fluid from the master cylinder and then refilling it with fresh fluid before you start the draining at each wheel. If you are unsure about this job, it is one of those that can lead to driving accidents if it is done wrong, so consider having the procedure done by someone else.

bolivar · March 2002

The rubber seals in the brake system are very sensitive to anything but brake fluid.

All shop manuals warn strongly about NEVER putting anything but brake fluid into the brake system.

Any kind of 'hydrocarbon' liquid will usually eat up the seals and cause leaks and loss of pressure. And power steering fluid is usually a type of transmission or hydrolic fluid and I would think it qualifies as a 'hydrocarbon'.

If the brake system on this car has actually been mis-filled, in my opinion, fixing this is a job for a professional.

And I would expect a complete over-haul of the master cylinder and all the wheel cylinders or calipers. An expensive job.

heng · March 2002

jjstokes0430 has got an expensive mess on his hands. But he can flush the system now and deal with repairs as he needs them.

But I don't know if I would ever trust the brake system on that car.

heng · March 2002

These are the same price online as off-the-shelf pads locally. Anyone can share any experiences with the performance friction pads? Good or bad

I need to get some new pads soon.

snowman · March 2002

You've mentioned that Brute Stop will eat rotors easy, is this true even you use Raybestos rotors possibly compatible with Brute Stop? Or your experience depends on pads from Raybestos-rotors from OEM.
When you install quite stop on your customers cars, you use raybestos rotors or utileze whatever the car has at that time?
What do you recommed for 2000 Taurus. I was thinking something from Raybestos too?
Thanks

fleetwoodsimca · March 2002

Braking occurs when the frictional material of the pads interferes with the spin of the disk. This interface of materials shares the stress between the two surfaces in such a way that the less "tough" of the two takes the brunt of the wear. As the two materials approach each other in "toughness" the wear becomes more equally shared, so to speak. Brute Stop pads are very tough, while Quiet Stop pads are less tough.

alcan · March 2002

For your 2000 Taurus I'd use PG Plus pads and rotors for spirited driving, QuietStop with the original rotors (if serviceable) for more sedate driving. They're more expensive than the "economy" brands, but you get what you pay for and Taurus have had some rotor warpage concerns.

Your best bet would be to browse their website and compare the products:

http://www.raybestos.com/products.htm

vince59 · March 2002

My 98 Camry is still squealing when braking, sometimes. Could it be that metalic pads were used instead of ceramic? I bought the car used so is there a way to figure out what type are on there?

The car stops, but the grinding sounds horrible!

fleetwoodsimca · March 2002

I'd sure take a look, and a close one!
Grinding and squealing are two different things. the last car I replaced brakes on that was GRINDing, well, I had to put on new rotors. Check eet ooout!

frenchy2002 · March 2002

I have a 96 Neon and I had my brake fluid replaced a couple days ago. Since then, the brake pedal feels spongy and makes a noise when I press on it. Could there be air in the line? Or is it something else? Any feedback would be appreciated. Thank you.

fleetwoodsimca · March 2002

...take it back to the shop for a recheck. Drive carefully!

haspelbein · March 2002

I recently found two deep grooves in the front right rotor of my '97 Ford Ranger (2wd/no ABS). At 50K miles I didn't really mind changing them and bought new pads and rotors. Only then (Yes, I should have realized that earlier.) did I discover that the rotors are an integral part of the hub, and not sandwiched and screwed onto it. (As it is the case with all my cars.)

I'm therefore looking at opening the wheel bearings when changing the rotors, which is not a big deal by itself, but I believe that I will have to replace the wheel bearings, as their races are installed in the rotor/hub.

Does anybody have any suggestions on where to get the new races installed into the new rotors ? Machine shops should do it, or who else would be a good candidate ?

opera_house_wk · March 2002

had the outside race pressed in it already. It was an easy switch. Just had to get a new seal.

haspelbein · March 2002

You are, of course, correct. The outer race is in the hub, I should have had a closer look. What about the inner race ?
Sorry to bug you, but my manual is awfully mum about the races.

Did you replace the bearing ? I'm not sure about the the expected lifetime, but since I have to open and repack it anyhow, would 50K miles be a good point to replace it ? Can you even use an existing bearing on new races, or should they always be replaced together ? (I know not to install a new bearing on old races, but I'm unsure about the opposite.)

Thanks for your response...

opera_house_wk · March 2002

I have a 92 Explorer that has over 200K on the original bearings. When I put new rotors on, I inspected the old bearings and there was no sign of pitting or wear. When bearings start to fail, it is quite obvious on the finish. Mix and match of old and new bearing parts is not a problem.

haspelbein · March 2002

I will get the seals and go for it next weekend. Nothing like black grease on your hands ...

vince217 · March 2002

Sorry if this question has been asked before, there are too many replies for me to look through.

I have rear brakes that squeal whenever I brake. These are fairly new pads with new rotors. Is there anything i can do to reduce brake squeal?

fleetwoodsimca · March 2002

I have heard (from a supply salesman) that some brake outfits buy and use spray cans containing anti-squeal compounds. This is not thought to be permanent by any means, but may quiet the problem while break-in proceeds. Check the big name parts houses for availability.

swschrad · March 2002

at the time of install, there is a ampule of backing lube that is supposed to be put on the backing pads to prevent squealing. I suspect what actually happens is the lube migrates onto the ends of the guide pins over time and thus settles that hash.

it is rather obvious that you don't want to be spraying a nice, thick coat of hi-temp lube on the friction surface of the brake pads.

or maybe it isn't rather obvious... but a nice way to gum up the rotor and pads, perhaps cause delamination of the resin holding the friction stuff together, and certainly your braking power is gone with sloppy oil gobs riding against the rotors.

water, maybe, but it's cheaper to hit a puddle in the road, and they're always in stock

cen17394 · March 2002

This may be off topic. If so I appologize. I have a 92 Ford Tempo. The Wiring for the Brake Lights has been causing all kinds of headaches. The wiring harness that connects to the brake light switch has been replaced numerous times. This harness gets so hot that the wires melt and fuse themselves together, Causing blown fuses, Brake lights that never turn off and other such problems. After fighting with this problem for years I have finally decided to Completely rewire the brake light system. The only problem I have encountered is the Brake Shift Interlock. I can't find it. Can anyone tell me where the Brake shift interlock is located and how it is supposed to be wired? Or, possibly a way to disable it. I would like it to be functional if possible.

swschrad · March 2002

there is something seriously wrong here, and you can probably go looking for it in the harness or sockets outside... you will have to replace all wiring that has damaged insulation, all of it, of course.

get a wiring diagram for the car, even a haynes/chilton book has enough of one to be useful if you don't want to buy the official one from www.helm.com. someplace under a piece of tape in a harness somewhere, there will be a power diode coming off the brake wire that has another little wire on the other side. it will be in the circuit to the high-mount light in the back window if you have one. that diode is an isolator to keep any feedback voltage from the shift interlock system out of the brake light system.

and if that is shorted or missing, guess what -- you have a sneak path for current. one more possible fault.

the diode can probably be replaced with any 200 PIV 4 AMP general purpose diode or better.

but the most likely reason for the wire damage is overcurrent, probably corrosion on a light socket is causing some amps to run to ground past the bulb all the time. it SHOULD have blown the fuse, so double-check that some character didn't put a 30-amp no-blow in there where you should have maybe an 8 or 10 amp fuse.

could also be a dead relay or rot in the relay panel under the hood if you used relays in that car, but my bet is it's pure old green wire and white/rust/green light sockets that hold the bulb so tight with corrosion that the glass breaks when you try and remove the bulb (wear gloves.)

fleetwoodsimca · March 2002

Expensive! I stopped yesterday at a local CarQuest store and inquired about Raybestos pads. I discovered that the (ceramic) Quiet Stops are the most expensive of the current Raybestos pads. For my 98 Pathfinder the price was $71.00 for the front. Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh... I'll pass.

alcan · March 2002

Put a set of PG Plus metallic front pads on my SHO 2 days ago. Suggested retail $91.46, my cost $50.46 (Cdn) from the supply house which sells to most of the pro shops around here. Pads to fit the same car start at about $25 or so for the cheapie organics from the local DIY retailer. You get what you pay for.

mrdetailer · March 2002

I've had to replace the brakes in the past 6 weeks on 2 cars. The front brakes on my Dodge with 170K miles, and the back ones on my Subaru at 120K.

Interestingly the brakes feel softer than they did on the worn pads. And when I try to lay rubber on the road, it just doesn't happen. Now they stop wonderfully. If I use the hand brake on the Subaru the rear brakes stop quicker than a Mazda that just recently passed inspection. When I took it back to the repair shop they said the brakes were as tight as they could be. The drums were turned.

On the Dodge, new rotars were also installed with the front disk brakes. At 170K, I can't really complain. I slam the brakes and there is no skid. No rubber on the road either. However they seem to stop really well as I found out on a freeway where another car was at a dead stop.

I do not have antilock brakes.

Are my vehicles safe?

fleetwoodsimca · March 2002

Let me modify that to: You seldom get more than what you pay for, but often get less.
The Cynics were brilliant people... <:o[

scotian · March 2002

I'll soon supply a link to my interesting and unique experiences with some new cross-drilled rotors, but right now I need to know how to get hardened, caked-on, and rusting carbon-kevlar & rotor metal "dust" mix off of my chrome wheels. On much of it I can chip/flake it away, but is there a product that eats though this stuff?

alcan · March 2002

Are your wheels clear coated?

fleetwoodsimca · March 2002

I suspect a lot of people would not use the approach I subscribe to: Bleche Wite on everything. It is the very best tire cleaner, in my opinion. I simply use my brush on the wheels while cleaning the tires. I suppose there are wheels out there that might not be suitable for this technique, but my experience is that if you do not let the chemicals sit on the tires and wheels longer than cleaning requires, and you rinse thoroughly, all is well.

c0ke · March 2002

My '02 Camry LE has 4-wheel ABS disc brakes.
At 400 miles my son-in-law noticed ridges forming on the back rotors and suggested the pattern looked like a problem in the making. So at 1400 miles the condition clearly had not improved and both of the rotors on the rear had numerous ridges formed across the surface.

The dealer did an inspection with the wheels off and decided that the rotors and pads should be replaced. They performed this change out at 1700 miles claiming they were unfamiliar with this condition(problem?).

Now at 3000 miles the left rear rotor has formed numerous ridges again but the right rear rotor is smooth except for one small ridge that has formed.

I asked the dealer about it and he said he would like to wait a couple of thousand miles and then take another look at it.

The front rotors appear to have a very smooth surface all along.

Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions as to what could be the cause of these ridges? Are they anything to worry about? Is this something I should write Toyota about? Is the dealer giving me the runaround until this just becomes a wear and tear item and totally my responsibility?

OK, enough nagging questions ... any ideas?

fleetwoodsimca · March 2002

If in fact you have a problem condition, what you are describing might be caused by the rear calipers not fully releasing. If that was the case, replacing the calipers might fix it. But don't overlook pressure problems from the ABS.

alcan · March 2002

If that system incorporates the parking brake mechanism into the rear calipers, verify the parking brake cables are correctly adjusted and fully releasing.

a_l_hubcaps · March 2002

Well, the troublesome Powermaster brakes on my 1986 Pontiac Parisienne just sent it into the shop again. This time I was on the highway, the brake warning light came on, and all power assist was gone. I tried changing the fuse under the dash and disconnecting and reconnecting the power plug to the booster motor, but that didn't help. It seems like the booster motor is either not getting power, or is just shot. I had it towed to my usual repair shop, but the head mechanic was off for the weekend, so I'll have to call on Monday and explain the problem, and I'd like to be able to give him some hints regarding which components to check. Does anyone here have experience with the Powermaster brakes? Does this sound like a bad booster motor, electrical fault, or what? Note that I have installed a fresh fuse, and I had previously replaced the old faulty accumulator with the newer type, so I don't think either of those components is the problem. I believe I have the redesigned pressure switch too, rather than the old defective type. I think my mechanic is running out of stuff to do with my brakes short of replacing the entire Powermaster assembly to the tune of $1000+. Any hints would be appreciated.

-Andrew L

c0ke · March 2002

I do think the parking brakes to be tied into the rear calipers.

I suspected the service shop considered the parking brake to be part of the problem since they left it so loosely set. i.e. the brakes didn't engage until the lever was at the end of the stop. This was the way the shop had left the adjustment after they had replaced the rotors and the pads.

I didn't take it back for adjustment for almost 1300 miles later(two weeks ago). By this time it was obvious that one of the rotors was now wearing unevenly while the other one was wearing smoothly.

This next week I'm going to look up the replacement procedure for rear disc brakes in ALL Data if the new CD sets are in. I don't know how to tell if these brakes are fully released or if they are adjusted properly but perhaps this will give me some insight. I can't tell if there is a problem by the way it handles or drives.

Can you tell if the calipers are fully releasing by a simple visual inspection?

haspelbein · April 2002

After the valuable input from operahouse_wk, I proceeded with my rotor replacement last weekend. It was a messy, but relatively easy job to open and repack the wheel bearings and replace the rotors.

The truck in braking great, no brake fade, no pulsation, and I was happy about the whole affair.

I then noticed an unusual amount of breakdust on my front wheels. I jacked up the truck again, and noticed that at pads are lightly touching the disk. The wheel almost spins freely, but not quite.

I took my dial indicator, measured the run-out and was within specs for the mounted rotor.

Would you consider this a normal part of the break-in process, or is this a sign that I'm dealing with something more serious ? Any suggestions of what I could check next ?

fleetwoodsimca · April 2002

That is likely a characteristic of the type of material from which the pads are made, isn't it? That may not change much during the life of the pads, but I could see some hope that once the pads are truly "seated" to the rotors, that the dusting may minimize. Good luck!

haspelbein · April 2002

Thanks, I may have overreacted a little. I purchased Raybestos "BRUTESTOP" pads, and this is maybe what I was asking for.
I usually had dusty front wheels and hot rotors on my German vehicles, but I've always attributed that to my driving and the softer pads.

fleetwoodsimca · April 2002

http://www.raybestos.com

http://www.raybestos.com/brutestop.htm

I think I recall all the current Raybestos pad and lining materials described there.

scotian · April 2002

http://public.fotki.com/Scotian/300m/exterior/slotted_rotors/

tboner1965 · April 2002

Hmm,

I have a box of similar materials, right down to the pads, waiting for my stainless braided brake hoses before installation on my SVT Contour.

This will be my third set of KVR pads and rotors. Even my 87 LeSabre had a set.

Did you get the cadmium plating. I've found that even the non-wear areas of these rotors are prone to rust, so I popped for the extra $$$$ to plate the rotors. Of course I know it will wear off the friction surface, but will make the remainder of the rotor stay sharp looking.

I'll post some pictures of my box contents.

TB

haspelbein · April 2002

Thanks for the links. Unfortunately, I didn't find too much information regarding the materials used, but I had the chance to talk over my brake issue with a mechanical engineer over the weekend. I think I'm fine. Thanks for your feedback.

wbenedict · April 2002

I just took my 2000 Nissan Maxima SE in for oil change/tire rotation/annual inspection. The svc mgr called me and said that on the road test the tech experienced some pull, and upon further examination, determined that the rotors need to be grinded. The car has under 13K miles and the vast majority of the miles are from driving it about 3miles a day to the train and back (no fast speeds/no hard stopping).

Now, I'm no expert but I've had 4 other new cars in my lifetime and driven them pretty hard and have never had any problem like this (other cars had b/t 60-90K miles on them when I sold them). Sounds to me like the problem is being caused by some other factor - over tightening of the wheel lugs, defective rotor, etc. Any ideas?

mrdetailer · April 2002

and I understand that does not depend on mileage.

bigorange30 · April 2002

What are the best type of brakes? My definition of best would be good performance over a long # of miles. Is there any research information on the net anywhere about it?

fleetwoodsimca · April 2002

You might want to visit these two sites for a starter on the information you seek:

http://www.bendixbrakes.com

http://www.raybestos.com

joe3891 · April 2002

I don't remember having trouble with full cars & trucks when discs came out in 60's & 70's.They never warped,i just looked at an old set of pads out of the 70's and they are huge.If you have large wheels you can have large brakes,problem solved.

irollcrx · April 2002

HI WE'RE LOOKING INTO UPGRADING THE ROTORS & BRAKE PADS FOR OUR '98 VOLVO V70 XC, WE KNOW FOR SURE THAT WE WANNA GET AFTERMARKET PARTS, SO FAR WE HAVE OUR EYES ON "EBC SPORT GROOVED ROTORS F/R @ $258 (pr.) $49 FOR REAR EBC GREENSTUFF BRAKE PADS & $79 FOR FRONT BRAKE PADS, WE CAN GET THE COMPLETE ROTORS & PADS FROM THE LOCAL VOLVO DEALER FOR $433.23 + 6%TAX, NOT BAD IF YOU COMPARE TIRERACK.COM TOTAL GRAND PRICE OF $644 + S/H, BUT THE VOLVO CERTIFIED MECHANIC IS TELLING US TO GO WITH THE ORIGINAL VOLVO PARTS, PLEASE LET US KNOW WHAT DO YOU THINK OR WHAT OTHER AFTERMARKET PARTS WOULD YOU LOOK INTO & IF YOU HAVE ANY BAD/GOOD REAL LIFE STORIES WITH AFTERMARKET BRAKE PARTS. ONE MORE THING WE KNOW THAT WHEN YOU UPGRADE YOUR BRAKING SYSTEM SOMETIMES YOU NEED TO UPGRADE YOUR WHEELS/RIMS TO A BIGGER SIZE TOO, WE WOULD LIKE TO KEEP OUR 15' WHEELS WE HAVE BUT IF WE NEED TO UPGRADE TO A BIGGER WHEEL TO GET BETTER BRAKING PERFORMANCE WE'RE WILLING TO DO SO. WE'RE SORRY FOR THE LONG STORY BUT THE MORE YOU READ THE WISER YOU GET, ATLEAST THAT'S WHAT MY FATHER USED TO SAY.

THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR INFO.
HERE'S OUR EMAIL cmr22001@optonline.net

gqlefty · April 2002

Should the rotor spin freely? just had new pads & rotors put on the front of my 1999 Mustang and there is a LOT of drag from the pads. With the wheel off it is difficult to turn the lug studs with your hand , is that normal or should it turn freely with NO drag at all ?? Thanks

haspelbein · April 2002

I just had the same concern after replacing the pads and rotors on my Ranger about a month ago. I asked a mechanical engineer, and got the following responses:

In general, some drag is normal.

a) Every rotor is minimally warped, pushing the pads further away from the rotor under normal driving condition, but not necessarily when rotating by hand.

b) The airflow on the surface of the rotor itself will separate the pads from the rotor even more.

From my experience, it is okay if some contact it being made. But I've always been able to spin the rotor by hand.

...

Saw that your question has been answered in another forum...nevermind. (You didn't write about the vibration here. )

olds94 · April 2002

1994 olds anti lock brake light came on any alarm.
still have brakes.

swschrad · April 2002

the way the systems are designed, you should still have 1940s-style brake function. all bets are off, however, if there is a big hydraulic problem, in which case the generic brake light (put on the parking brake to see it) should light up. in that case, you might have to use the parking brakes to do an emergency stop in the worst possible case... holding the release out, and pressing the park brake pedal... so hope you have kept them maintained.

"sin frenos" signs are not acceptable around these parts, if you are forced to emergency-stop with the parking brakes, leave the car parked and have it towed for repair.

ABS failure is most often, so these boards report, either the control module, wheel sensors, or dump/interrupt valve. all repairable, most not as cheaply as a hose rubbed raw.

Stop here! Let's talk about brakes

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles