Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Honda Civic Si vs. VW GTI

15791011

Comments

  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Must have been a typo.

    That was electra_rising. Here's the post.
    electra_rising Dec 2, 2002 5:09pm

    I quoted him. But no quotation marks. My bad.
  • inigocoinigoco Member Posts: 51
    It's been a while since I have checked in here on this site. What happened to the main topic of this discussion? Isn't this supposed to be about GTI's and the new Civic Si? Where did M-B, WRX's, Maximas and all this other stuff come from? Seems to me from the recent posts and the majority of many others VW's reliability pales when compared to cars costing more. I've seen very few comparisons from people comparing VW's to other cars of similar price, they generally compare them to cars costing thousands more. When compared to similarly-priced vehicles, the VW's offer more features, better safety and average to above average reliability. Plus, as was mentioned on this thread a while back, Volkswagen has the highest resale value in the non-luxury class of vehicles. How can a car with questionable reliability still have high resale values? That doesn't add up. High resale values reflect high quality vehicles. Sure there are some exceptions, every manufacturer builds lemons, but they are rare. Reliability problems will cause lower sales which will cause less demand for a particular vehicle or make which in turn will affect the resale value of said vehicle or make. Obviously this is not VW's problem, they are experiencing record growth and high resale values, so where does reliability fit into this?
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Compared to the SI or any Honda except the passport. There is no mainstream publication or source that would place the VW reliability above Hondas. And as far as resale you've got to be kidding. But no point going over that again. Honda sells over a 350,000 Civics a year whereas Volkswagen can't sell that many anything. 100K mile 1990 Civic Si's still command $4195 retail while a GTI of the same year is $3130 when optioned as a Civic Si.

    Not to mention the Golf has been riding on the same twist beam rear suspension since it was a Rabbit.

    But maybe that post was just trying to get something started...Nevermind.
  • inigocoinigoco Member Posts: 51
    Mentioned here a while back and still available to beread on Edmunds site, there is a story from ALG(Automotive Leasing Guide) regarding residual value and resale values. ALG takes into account all aspects of car ownership in figuring out what the car will actually cost you in the course of years. They come up with what they call a TCO(True Cost of Ownership) which calculates what a car will cost you to own per year including repairs, depreciation et al. From these findings they concluded that Volkswagen ended up on top. Here's a direct quote from the story,

    "According to the ALG, its Residual Value Awards honor "those vehicles in each segment predicted to retain the highest percentage of their original price." In other words, these are the cars that will be worth the most in three or four years, when most leases will end. In addition to naming specific cars for awards, ALG also gave awards to two manufacturers. Volkswagen of America won the "Industry Brand Residual Value Award" and Mercedes-Benz USA won the "Luxury Brand Residual Value Award."" Link to the whole story here http://www.edmunds.com/advice/leasing/articles/46807/article.html

    Plus, VW commercials of late have also begun to claim the highest resale values in their classes, are you suggesting that VW is advertising falsely?

    Again, since that study includes repairs as well as depriciation, shouldn't VW have scored much lower since their vehicles are horribly unreliable? Show me number to the contrary. Find some info which shows VW's resale values to be much lower than other similar cars.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Benzes aren't known for relibility either. Durability yes, reliablilty no. They have thier issues.
    When looking at pure reliability surveys the Civic will come out on top. There is no extrapolating from vague awards necessary for that. It's in black and white in any pure reliablity study you consult.

    And as far as resale..I just showed you one. Since this is the GTI vs Civic forum I'm sure this has been hashed out before. Just read back.
  • inigocoinigoco Member Posts: 51
    Quote - "100K mile 1990 Civic Si's still command $4195 retail while a GTI of the same year is $3130 when optioned as a Civic Si." - End Quote

    So now you want to compare old vehicles, not the new ones. OK I can play that game. Go check the classifieds for an old air-cooled VW. Old Beetles and Ghias cost more to buy used now than they did when they were new, granted inflation have a part in that, but nonetheless cars hit a level where their depriciation levels off after a number of years. You compared a few cars now I'll do the same.
    On the Kelley Blue Book site a 2000 Civic Si with 50K miles and no additional options other than those already selected in Good condition comes up at $12,905. selecting a 2000 GTI Turbo GLS with 50K miles as well and no additional options other than those already selected in Good condition gets a value of $14,340. Even adding the options to make the Si equivilent the value went up to only $13,215 still over $1,000 lower than the GTI. And a VR6 model goes over $15,000. So all those people out there paying over $15,000 for a used Civic Si are all getting hosed. Seems they are all just brainwashed into believing that VTEC is a godsend and their Si is actually worth more than $15,000, kinda funny actually. I may start investing in Si's. I'll buy them for what they are actually worth and turn around to sell them to the highest bidder, hell if I can make a few thousand on each car, why not.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Average miles for a car is 10,000 to 12,000. I'm sure your vaunted residual awards aren't figured on 25,000 miles per year.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    The 1999 Civic SI retailed for $17,494 new in 1999 according to November 2000 R@T summary.
    According to KBB 30141 area code retail at 45,000 miles is $14,910. $2600 loss in three years and 45,000 miles. That's awesome value retention.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    You have ALG .. I have Intellichoice. If you look at the total 5 year ownership costs the Jetta is rated better than average and the Civic is rated excellent. Over the 5 years the Jetta GL is $1700 below average while the Civic LX is $4700 below average. This factors in depreciation, maintenance, repairs, insurance, etc. It's notable that the Civic was the best overall value of the year in it's class.

    If you look at ALG it did award VW the overall award but Honda held 3 top spots and the whole site seemed to say Japanese/European good .. domestic bad. It never said VW has a huge advantage over Honda and in almost every breath that VW was mentioned in so was Honda.

    People who are paying $15,000 for an SI aren't being hosed if they can drive it for a year and then sell it for $14,000. If you look up 93-95 SI's in good condition they are still going for a pretty penny private owner .. if you can find one. Same with 91-93 GS-R's. The SI will remain in high demand because of it's easy nature to mod and it's reliability.

    A 2000 SI retailed for $17,500. A 2000 GTI 1.8T retailed for $19,995. Difference of $2500. So if the GTI is only worth $1000 more the SI has made up $1500 and lost a lower percentage of it's value.
  • gotenks243gotenks243 Member Posts: 116
    And here we go again with the talk of previous Si resale values. The '99-'00 Si was a desirable car. It went for over-sticker new, as I recall. The resale of the unwanted '02-'03 Si is not going to fare quite as well. If it has to be given away to sell it new, you'll have to give it away to sell it used.

    Now, a thought that a concensus could possibly be reached on... Si= better buying car, GTI= better leasing car? Not that there aren't great leasing deals out there on the Si...there's a very enticing $199/month $0 down 48 month lease available on leftover '02s (locally at least). I'm just throwing the thought out there.

    Mike
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I drive 25,000 miles a year...in fact I drive closer to 40K per year.

    And a 2000 model car could quite easily be (and probably is) 3 years old.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    When you look at lease values there are very few that are calculated on 25,000 miles a year.


    http://www.cheap-auto-car-insurance-quotes.net/g-article01.html

    "* How many miles has the vehicle been driven (the average is about 10,000 to 12,000 miles per year)?"


    The most mileage I have seen on a lease special is 15,000 miles per year. But of course this IS Edmunds where people can't understand the difference between a feature and a glitch even though every Honda behaves the same.


    I guess it's a glitch Hondas require Honda specific power steering fluid. Or that all Hondas before this engine series ran in the reverse direction than most other cars. Or that Honda CD players don't display the time on the CD's. Nope not glitches. Just the way they designed em. Don't like it, don't buy it.


    Every thing is based on averages. I know there are people that drive 100,000 mile in a year. But they aren't the average.


    So you are right there is no point to debate anything with a bot. Mainly because the bot will only use facts and not personal anecdotes that can't stand up to logic.


    Even a saleswoman??? and a driver of a 1994 Lexus can use facts to debunk someone who says a GTI is reliable? Compared to a Honda? Get real.


    http://www.autooninfo.net/ReliabilityPercentranksMotorVehicle.htm

  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    gotenks: I will go along with the SI being a better car to buy and the GTI being a better car to lease. Your VW will spend so much time in the shop that you will have no problem keeping the miles down if nothing else :)

    Man there's a lotta red on that VW part of the link above ........
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    just as valid as this one

    http://www.myvwlemon.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro&BypassCookie=true

    and

    http://redstorm91.myforum.net/index.php3?more=432

    and

    http://www.carsurvey.org/viewcomments_review_16816.html


    or check any other reliability survey.


    You buy a VW you take your chances.


    Si's have ABS,and EBD, side airbags are available if you want em(the only option), cruise, keyless, and 5 star safety front and 4 star side without side airbags. So much for tin can.


    How is the GTI a stellar success if VW can't sell more cars than Hyundai anymore? They sell more Civics than they sell VW's as a whole.


    Like I said in another forum. Anecdotes mean nothing when they aren't based on fact. I can show proof that VW's are NOT reliable, the SI is not a "tin can", the SI has reasonable content at it's price point especially since it has only one option, there is a significant number of horror stories littering the web about VW's in general, in fact the Beetle is a used car "to avoid" according to CR, and the link above shows VW's reliability as lacking compared to most.


    Here's another link from the site...

    Direct comparison to Honda. Of course the latest data is 1998 but I doubt the such a large divide will be made up that quickly.

    http://www.autooninfo.net/ReliabilityPercentranksVolkswagen.htm


    Thank god for simple basic cars that seem to have just as many features as the awesome great VW's. I think I would rather turn on my own windshield wipers and adjust my own heat.

  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    You Honduh guys crack me up - This could go on forever - you keep believing your fantasy about VW's - and I'll keep enjoying my dependable VW's this from an actual VW owner. Most all the negative stuff I read here on VW's is from non VW owners - your envy is showing.

    wow - you can get side airbags as an option on the tin can civic and honda's top line EX V6 has curtain air bags "available" a $15k GL Golf has them all standard - along with ABS, traction control etc, etc all standard and VW doesn't have to give them away at fire sale prices or make cutting edge safety items "available as the only option" - LOL - path-et-ic

    FYI - as for your resale blah, blah, blah eariler:
    "Volkswagen was ranked #1 among mass-market manufacturers for best residual value in the Automotive Lease Guide's 2002 Residual Value Awards." Do you think it's because they don't have to sell them for below invoice to move them off the lots like the ugly tin can SI's??? Or subsidize leases like Accords?

    The GTI sells on it's merits - the SI (and most other Honduh's) sells because it's so heavily discounted - resale on an SI will be a joke.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    180HP

    Standard side airbags. Standard curtain airbags.

    Standard full size spare tire.

    Standard floor mats.

    Standard ASR and optional ESP.

    4 yr. 50,000 mile b2b warranty.

    Heated mirrors standard.

    16" wheels standard with 17" optional.

    Heated seats optional.

    Standard stereo that is much better than the Si's.

    CD player and cassette player standard.

    Armrest standard.

    Cargo hooks in the hatch area. (nice to have)

    Full carpet in hatch area instead of plastic on the sides like the Si.

    Gas struts on the hood instead of a cheap prop rod.

    Storage areas for first aid kit and 6 disc cd changer.

    Wide selection of aftermarket parts and accessories available directly from VW.

    1.8T is a Wards 10 best engine.

    There are so many extra items that make the GTI stand out in a comparision to the Si. When you own a VW you take for granted these features.

    Unfortunately, the VW dealer network is TERRIBLE. Quality of materials is excellent but the reliability of components is below average.

    My personal experience owning a VW Golf and VW Jetta was excellent as far as relibility. But the poor dealership service and the maintenance requirements made me so disgusted that I am now driving an Si.

    If the GTI were the same price as an Si I would put up with the VW aggravations and would have kept my Golf. VW needs to fix their dealer network ASAP.
  • 204meca204meca Member Posts: 369
    that are standard on the GTI:

    Auto down & UP both windows.
    5 yr 60K warranty (may be only as good as dealer).
    16" wheels, though most GTIs seem to have 17"
    Telescopic steering wheel.
    Both front seats can easily be raised or lowered.
    LARGE, illuminated in glove box.
    ALL switches are illuminated.
    Remote release of the hatch.
    Easy rear seat entry system for both front seats, with memory.
    Illuminated vanity mirrors.
    Lights in the rear seat passenger compartment.
    Auto door locking @ 8 mpg (not everyone likes this
    Heated seats as option (seems to be on all GTIs).
    Adjustable headrests including articulation headrests (the Sis are NOT at allcomfy).
    Foglights.
    Lower insurance rates according to AllState
    Better EPA highway mileage @ 31 v 30 (many GTI owners report 35 mpg highway).

    Sadly, the Si is a stripper in comparison? What can't Honda give us a few simple more simple creature comforts like armrests & seat heigh adjustment (both were on the 00 EX)? No wonder I am leaning toward the GTI despite having owned 5 great Honda civics since 1985.
  • 204meca204meca Member Posts: 369
    why I can find 3 used 02 GTIs for sale in my small city & 6 more within 100 miles in the Atotrader, but no 02 Si anywhere? This is especially unnerving if it is true that there are fewer 2002 GTI were made. That said, there may be no used Si because many of them have not left the dealer's lots yet.

    I love the performance & features of the GTI, but a few facts like the above still make me nervous. If I finally actually get up enough courage to purhase a GTI I hope & pray that it is as reliable as yours has been (so far)!
  • gotenks243gotenks243 Member Posts: 116
    "why I can find 3 used 02 GTIs for sale in my small city & 6 more within 100 miles in the Atotrader, but no 02 Si anywhere? "

    One important thing to keep in mind is that '02 GTIs have been on sale since last September at the normal model-year changeover, whereas '02 SIs didn't get to dealers until March '02-ish. Basically, the GTI has been out longer, and the propensity to sell increases as time goes on, not to mention there's more out there (should be anyway). I remember earlier this year hearing of people selling their early '02 GTIs in favor of the 337, new MINIs, and the like. There's quite a few people still trying to sell used 337s for over the original sticker too. People will always find a reason to sell anything, it's nothing to get unnerved about.

    Mike
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote gee -Wheres's VW? Oh yeah at the bottom.

    You stated the list was in alphabetical order, so yes VW is going to be at the bottom.

    Your post indicates that number of vehicles sold is more important than the vehicle.

    In 2001 Volkswagen delivered a total of 865,500 Golf vehicles to its customers.

    On June 25th 2002 the 21,517,415th Golf was manufactured. Thats right, 21 million.

    In the US in November of 2002 VW sold about 30,000 cars and Honda sold 100,000.

    Since Honda sells 3 times as many vehicles does this mean they are better. If so then that must mean GM is the best because they sold 300,000 plus in November.

    Is the number of problems per 100 vehicles the most important factor in vehicle purchasing?

    Must not be since VW is experiencing record sales month after month and year after year in the US.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=563&CatID=1

    Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout.


    2001 Sporty Segment- winner is VW GTI


    quote- Volkswagen models continue to do well in the study, with the Beetle setting the APEAL standard for compact cars every year since its introduction in 1998. The Jetta ranks highest for the third year in a row in the entry midsize car segment, and the GTI ranks most appealing in the sporty car segment.


    2001 winners in compact segment were VW Beetle and VW Golf.


    In midsize VW Jetta


    VW's are recognized for design and execution as well as being recognized for being below average in quality.


    Where is Honda in this list? Only the Odyssey is present.

  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Didn't give not one bit of relavant information.
    The 2001 information you quoted is not U.S. information since VW only sold 400,000 or so total units last year here acording to my link including numbers with Audi. Who is the one with the false information?

    You are right VW is at the bottom since it begins with V. But it is at least number 23. Is that much better? I wouldn't have mentioned that.

    The nameplate Golf has been around since the Rabbit. Until this year it was the best selling car in Europe. Peugeot took care of that though. Our Rabbit was called the Golf in Europe. In fact the Golf still has the rear twist beam suspension used in the Golf/Rabbit from the 70's.

    GM sold that many total cars but they also comprise how many marques? At least 6.

    Yes Honda IS better in the U.S. than VW.

    Honda is also experiencing record sales. In fact if you would read the chart again it would show you Honda is UP 3% while VW is DOWN about the same amount. Considering the percentages though 3% of Honda's figure is much more impressive.

    Like I said in my last post... I would leave this one alone.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Edmunds shows $0.35 mile for Si and $0.39 for GTI.

    Is all the extra equipment that is standard on the GTI worth $600 a year?
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    I think Daewoo also won one of those. Great company to be in there.

    VW is also present on another study...
    Consumer Reports 2003 Buyers Guide
    Worst Used Cars: Volkswagen New Beetle
    Used cars to Avoid:Jetta 4 cylinder 99-00
    New Beetle 98-00
    Passatt 98

    Notice Honda's dealerships near the top.
    Honda's dependability near the top of any survey.
    Especially JD Power long term survy.

    Even if the equipment were worth it. The peace of mind you get with Hondas outweighs heated mirrors. Available in Canadian SiR's.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    If CR told you to buy a Yugo would you buy one? The information you posted was as relevant as the information I posted. MyVWLemon WAHHH..LOL I can post links to some really mad Odysey owners also.

    How about explaining what CR or JD Power reliability ratings mean real world. For example if the Si was rated at 100 problems per 100 vehicles and GTI at 200 then one more problem would be experienced. The rating would be twice as bad for one problem. Big deal!

    GTI does offer more content than Si. It is more expensive though.

    The only thing you want to discuss is reliability. The fact is that Honda is better. Instead of discusing content or perhaps the views of automotive press the only other thing you want to harp on is sales numbers. Who cares? If I am driving a Si or GTI I care I about enjoyment of the car not if 10 other people bought the same model.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Hypotheticals in a debate. How grade school.

    First year Odysseys had issues. VW {insert model here} has issues even though the car is several years old. The Beetle is a nightmare.

    In the real world a car that has very few complaints and a history of steller performance shows that the cars with several complaints and a trail on online horror stories should be avoided. With VW products you don't have only one source that says not to buy one, there are several.

    Let's say one of the Golf "features" was a gold dispenser, it would do you no good if it didn't work when you needed it.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Since GTI and Golf are nearly the same.

    I owned a 2001 Golf for two years. During the time I had to make two unscheduled trips to dealer for problems. The problem was broken window regulators. The window regulators were redesigned for 2003 and are being replaced free of charge by VW on all affected models that are prior to 2003. So two times in two years.

    For my 2002 Si I have 2,000 miles on it. As of next week it will have required two visits to the dealer for problems. Twice in two months.

    My personal experience so far is nothing to impress with Honda.

    The VW dealer is a real pain in the butt though. Honda dealer is very pleasant.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    I've shared my personal experience with both current Si and curren model Golf/GTI platform. You asked for real world and not hypothetical and now it is posted. Can you share real world experience? Or is it all hypothetical and just what you have read here and there?
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    I'm sure the average SI owner is a much happier puppy than the average GTI one. Just as with the A/C "glitch" there will be issues that some people need addressed. Especially with the SI since many of them sat for months without being sold. I'm thinking of getting a Honda Accord EX-L stick. The one I want hasn't even been built yet. I'm gonna meet the truck at the dealer. Our current Si was months old when we bought it. Although ours was perfect (both of them) I'm sure there are some which need adjustment.

    But check the VW complaint boards. Those are problems. When you factor in that they sell far fewer VW's than Hondas you have to worry about your chances of getting a good one.

    Anony is my fiance. We have had 2 2000 Si's and 2 2002 Si's. My 2000 runs great at 36K. And her first one was totalled. No return trips to the dealer for neither.
  • revkarevka Member Posts: 1,750
    but let's keep it civil. A few posts have been deleted here in the last day, because they were not within our Town Hall guidelines.

    To clarify: It's okay to criticize a vehicle or an idea, but we draw the line when it comes to bashing people/participants that don't share the same opinion... or drive the same make as you. Let's start over now on a friendlier note. Thanks!

    Revka

    Hatchbacks & Wagons Host
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Like Civic. But with an L.
    Revka did you delete an anony post from last night?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    The thing is that I come in contact with 30+ people locally and 1,000's for the last few years that own VW Golf, Jetta, NB and Passat. The majority of them and I mean nearly all of them are happy with their VW's. The one's that do have problems do not hide problems either. The people that leave VW like me almost always have problems that are mainly caused by the dealer and not the car itself. Some of the dealerships are just terrible. The problem boards here at Edmunds or anywhere else represent a very, very small % of owners. Take for example the GTI/Si discussion and you will see it is the same 10-20 people for the most part that are participating.

    GTI is a very nice car and the Si is a very nice car. I like both of them. Unfortunately there are too many people that have "I will never by brand X" or "I will never buy a car that is German or Japanese" attitudes that only try attack the vehicles on this basis rather than compare the models based on their features and capabilities.

    GTI is turbo and Si is naturally aspirated. Why not discuss this instead of JD Power and CR?

    I sold cars for a few years and the customers were more interested in the color and payment than anything else.
  • hamproofhamproof Member Posts: 241
    I've given up trying to talk anything w/ gee35coupe and anony. Both of them really worship Honda like a cult.


    At least we are objective when it comes even to the cars that we own ourself. We do see the good and the bad in all cars. No matter what you say, you'll never convince the two of them that their beloved Honda is not prefect. At least we have owned the Germans and the Japaneses. And I don't think either of them have ever owned a German marquee. They might have heard or read about the problems.


    I say just save your breath and let them both worship Honda. At least they are not against us ;)



    Pro: The H in front of the car - that should mean impeccable realibity and safety


    Cons:

    - Crappy tires in the wet/snowy conditions

    - Defective AC system

    - Lousy gas mileage (around 22mpg - all highway driving 60mph roundtrip) that hopefully will get better as this is my second tank of gas (note: same gas station, Mobil, that I use to fill up for my previous 01 A4. Averaging 28mpg in the A4)

    - Seat belts to far behind to reach in my driving position

    - Interior of the car starting to creak in the cold over bumpy roads (not noticable if the radio is on)

    - Whinny transmission when in reverse. Went out w/ colleague and freak the living daylights out of her when she heard it. Had to explain that it is a FEATURE of Honda. It is really loud when radio if off and no other traffic around. But it is a Honda feature, like the defective AC System

    - Dash lighting is poor. Orange color makes it hard to read around dusk time

    - More to come

  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    I just like a good debate. And it's too easy to pick apart the VW with facts. All of the "problems" you have with your car Hamproof aren't at all.

    A/C was designed that way. If you don't like it you should have bought something else. A problem is a malfunction. You A/C performs as designed. You just don't like the way Honda designed it.

    Michelin tires are known as some of the best quality tires on the market. I'm sure the "average" comsumer will disagree with you. Do you think the 17" tires on the VW will perform better in the snow? I doubt it.

    Gas mileage gets better after the break in. You car is still new. Not quite in the position to judge it.

    Seat belts? Shoulda bought a different car. that's the way they designed em. Not a problem.

    Cold creaks are normal. Check other forums all cars do it. It's cold ya know.

    All Honda trannies whine in reverse. They designed it that way. Not a problem. It's the design. Honda is the gold standard of FWD manual tranmissions.

    Dash lighting is the same as it was when you bought the car. The way they designed it.

    It really sounds like you bought the wrong car if you think all these are problems. Not a single one is out of line with any other 2002-2003 SI that you would be able to purchase. In fact the only "problem" that isn't shared with other Hondas is possibly the dash lighting since it varies from model to model.

    It really sounds like you bought the wrong car since you really have no "problem" that any other SI owner has. Except other owners recognise them as the "features" that they were designed to be..

    I've known people with VW products too. Let's just say that's why I would never own one. But they do drive great.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Are sparsely populated...All surveys agree with the boards. There's no denying VW's have log-term quality issues.. And when you consider how few cars VW sells it gets even uglier.

    I saw a Yugo last week. It was clean and ran well from where I saw it. If that one guy has never had a problem with his Yugo would you take his word for it? Or would you find other sources of information? ALL information sources regarding VW's say DON'T BUY A VW!!!!! If they have any info at all since the sample is so small.

    No point having features if you can't use them. The Daewoo had features galore but look what happened there. Slammed on the reliability front and no one cared.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Just to show other sources.


    Features do you no good when you are in a loaner car because yours is in the shop.


    The GTI doesn't sell..Period. They don't give em away because they know better than to send them here. If the GTI sells on it's merits I guess so does the regular Civic. The Golf has NO merits without the GTI is what you are saying huh? A total of 30,000 unit a year pales in comparison to the Civic. And since the Civic is such a "tin can" it's a wonder why they can sell over 10 TIMES as many of them as they do Golfs. Even with all the standard features.


    Still stuck on the residual huh. I don't lease so it doesn't matter to me. And few people buy VW's so I guess it wouldn't matter much to anyone else.


    But the Accord and Civic sell 800,000 units a year and still have stellar resale. That speaks louder than a car few people want new.


    But as usual a bunch of personal anecdotes with no credible backing.


    Here's a couple links.

    http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=4042

    Survey scores

    1. Lexus 169

    2. Toyota 146

    3. Saturn 144

    4. BMW 138

    5. Honda 132

    6. Hyundai 132

    7. Acura 129

    8. Volvo 126

    9. Mitsubishi 122

    10. Kia 121

    11. Nissan 120

    12. Porsche 118

    13. Mercedes-Benz 117

    14. Subaru 116

    15. Audi 115

    16. Suzuki 115

    17. Mazda 113

    18. GMC 112

    19. Infiniti 112

    20. Cadillac 110

    21. Chevrolet 110

    22. Saab 108

    Industry average 108

    Below average (in alphabetical order)

    Buick

    Chrysler

    Dodge

    Ford

    Isuzu

    Jeep

    Lincoln

    Mercury

    Oldsmobile

    Pontiac

    Volkswagen

    Daewoo, Hummer, Jaguar, Land Rover and Mini were not ranked due to small sample sizes.

    Wheres's VW? Oh yeah at the bottom.


    http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=4024

    Where does VW rank??? Oh yeah near the bottom.


    If I were a VW owner I would leave this one alone. Proven sub-par reliability, proven sub-par resale (compared to Honda), and proven sub-par dealer network.


    204 Meca you want to know why there are so many supposedly superior GTI's for sale? Maybe this link'll give a hint.


    http://www.thecomplaintstation.com/cgi-bin/frames.cgi?0832

    or

    http://www.planetfeedback.com/sharedLettersList/0,2941,104963-16-0-0-20-60-fb_date-desc,00.html

  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    You posted your opionion and not facts. And you posted the same post again. Why? I am not going to repost my response to your post.

    It is disappointing that you will not move beyond the sales number and reliability statistics to compare the drivability, performance and features of the GTI and Si.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    All Hamproof's "problems" are personal issues he has with the basic deign of the car and should have been addressed in the test drive.

    There are several relibility surveys that agree with the complaint boards. They say VW's are problematic. That is not an opinion. I've shown it to be fact.

    Daewoo had many features but is no longer in business. It takes more than a lot of features to be a success in the U.S. Fact.

    The post was deleted so I removed the offending portion and reposted it.

    Another fact there is that the VW has a very poor dealership network. Honda doesn't. Fact. Advantage Honda again.

    Just quit.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    I have driven many VW's. Almost bought a 2000 1.8T Jetta when they first came out. You know what? I came home, read about VW and all of their horror stories and then remembered the one Jetta I drove where the sunroof and cruise wouldn't work, then I remembered the 97 GTI (driven in 98) whose transmission would barely go into 1st, then I thought about my coworker who had just bought a Jetta and the windows stopped working, and then I decided to keep my 99 Accord with 30,000 miles on it. VW's do drive like crazy, I have no problem saying that. If that were the only consideration then the Jetta/GTI might stand more of a chance to be in my driveway. But a car can drive great but it really doesn't do you any good if you are worried about the next thing that will break on it or the only driving you get to do is sitting in the car while it's on the back of a tow truck or you only get to drive it to the dealer and back.

    Opinions are somebody saying "my GTI drives better" or "my SI looks better". Facts are defined as this "a piece of information presented as having objective reality
    - in fact : in truth" Objective reality is what surveys like JD Powers and Consumer Reports provide to us. The info is there for us to look at and make our own decision. Some people are swayed by the way the VW or Honda may drive, some people might be swayed by the number of buttons, but the data that these sources provide isn't dependent on any of those factors. Owner's respond with their problems and that's where the rankings come from. So if you don't like your car's place on the totem pole complain about your fellow owners and don't shoot the messenger.
  • meibfmeibf Member Posts: 1
    I happened to pass by this board and saw the ongoing discussion about VW's quality. What interests me is that how the same product enjoys completely different image across Atlantic. In Europe, (I lives in Belgium), VW, especially Golf, is the symbol of quality and reliability.

    http://www.parkers.co.uk/choosing/car_reviews/main_review.asp?model_id=749


    But it normally is viewed as conservative, not so fun to drive, for example, compared with Ford.

  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    in Europe than it is in the U.S. Peugeot has taken over the top spot small car market there with the 206 and admits it still isn't ready for the U.S. market and it's more demanding quality requirements.

    That's one of the reasons why they have such a diverse range of choices in their automotive marketplace.
  • 204meca204meca Member Posts: 369
    for the verry intersting insight from the other side of the pond. I am thinking the the Country of origin (where ther cars are assembled) could account for the difference. Are the European GTIs also assembled in Brazil or are they made in Germany?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    US GTI is sourced from Brazil. European GTI's are sourced from Brazil and Germany.
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    Bottom line is I and the vast majority of VW owners seriously like their cars. Honda people and VW people are on either ends of the spectrum. Honda people in this forum live by what others think - polls/ surveys's etc. VW owners drive what they like and pay little attention to surveys. I drive what I like and what puts a smile on my face every time I drive it - that would never happen in any Honda product for me.


    I'm glad you Honda people like your cars - I simply don't and no amount of data you spout about VW's is going to change my mind. I like my GTI and all my previous VW's a lot.


    The only two vehicles I own are VW's and BMW's (currently 01 X5, 02 GTI). I actually test drove an MDX when I bought the X5 - I knew I would never be an MDX owner just sitting behind the wheel - Honda's just don't have that European feel - cheap and low rent comes to mind. But hey I did compare the X5 to something when I was "shopping". The only other marque I'm a fan of is Land Rover - I put 160k miles on a Range Rover (what the X5 replaced) that Rangie had it's quirks but it was one of the best vehicles I've ever owned - I'd have traded it for another one if I hadn't been transferred to the sunbelt and had no earthly need for one.


    You Honda guys will never own a VW, Land Rover or BMW - that would be way too close to living on the edge for you - we are not the same type of car people. I say let's agree to disagree.


    Here is a glimpse of what I'm talking about - I'm already looking at the replacement of my 02 GTI - by the middle of next year I will be driving one of these - when I see and hear this VW it get me excited, gives me that "something" that no Honda will ever, ever do. I put my $1k deposit down on an R32 yesterday - can't wait.


    R32 Sounds:

    Anfahrt

    Motor

    Vorbeifahrt


    Commercial-Clip:

    Video





    All wheel drive, 3.2 liter 241 HP VR6, 6 speed, Konig leather sport seats, climatronic, Xenon headlights with washers, DVD based Nav, rain sensing wipers, 18" wheels to name a few features. All for $32K the price of 2 heavily discounted 02 SI's (saw Honda dealer add in yesterday's paper - 02 SI's are STILL available for $16k). I think the R32 is a screaming deal for this level of performance - I can not wait!!!!

  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Don't depend on what others think. We just have that as a reference. It's so much easier to find others that like our cars. Especially those that can have real reasons other than "cause I want one" which is all that VW owners have. Anywhere you look it's a horror movie.


    I just bought another Honda yesterday. A 03 EX-L 5 speed coupe Accord. 36 mo. lease 15k year for 325 mo. I'll be happy with that until I get my V6 6 speed after they start making them in decent numbers.


    The X5, you are right I would not buy. "Used car to avoid", new car I don't need. I would own a BMW. If the 3-series had more value for the dollar. The 5 series is THE car to own in it's class. I would buy one if I had the need for a new larger sedan.


    I'm not trying to change YOUR mind. Just show you that your decision is all built on emotion and not fact. I know the Civic is not selling as well as Honda thought they would. They planned on selling 15,000 SI's in a market that as rule does not buy many hatchbacks. And I also know the VW will do just fine in the numbers that they want to sell them. It sounds like a very capable car. I would want one too. But as with most VW's they are limiting production to keep prices up. 5000 worldwide.

    "Of the 5000 models that will be built before the arrival of the next-generation Golf in a year, some could come to the U.S."

    http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/carnews/0211_upfront_golf.xml


    Better order yours now. But better watch out for the EVO, STI, and lowly NEON SRT out to kill ya. Nearly 3600 pounds is a lot to stretch only 237hp with inefficient 4 wheel drive. But hey it has those rain sensing wipers.


    I will agree with you on one thing. Every time i have driven a VW I did like the drive. As I have said many times before VW's DRIVE. They have a feel that is hard to describe. Locked down solid driving lil cars they are. So I know how you feel about them. Look at each of our "garage's" you can tell we will never agree on much else though.


    An X5 makes no real sense to me. One of the smallest interiored SUV's on the road. I'm sure it drives very Bimmerish but shoulda just bought a 5 series. GTI...Been there. Land Rover???? Quirks??? I'll bet.

  • gsgman69gsgman69 Member Posts: 75
    Hey Rickover I second the "agree to disagree" notion regarding VWs and Hondas.

    Yes, VW may not have the same reliability as Honda. But if you do opt for a GTI you get a 4-50000mi/5-60000 year warranty bumper to bumper and powertrain. With the SI you only get 3-36000/3-36000 and you don't get 4 year roadside assistance like the VW

    Secondly the Golf is the 2nd bestselling car of all time. Corolla is 1st. Civics(and other Japanese cars) have never sold well in Europe because they never had the driving dynamics that Europeans have desired. This is changing, but slowly now that there are more design studios from Japanese companies located in Europe.

    I also hate to say it but I don't think Honda has made many stride in quality in the last few years. C&D had a comparo and I think the Civic finished in 5th place. C&D said:

    "Lows: Way too many rattles, way too many shades of metallic in the paint, harsh ride, numb path control on the interstate.

    The Verdict: Something new from Honda — a loser."

    Bottom line is that VW aspires to be budget versions of Audis and BMWs while Hondas aspire to be the same in regards to Acura. In other words its a question of taste.

    Hey gee35coupe the R32 does not weight 3600, more like 3250. big difference.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    The R32 does look like a nice car. It's a shame that it's on such an outdated suspension.

    World-wide sales don't really mean much. What's considered good somewhere else might not make it here and vice versa. GM/Ford sell more cars than anybody but that doesn't mean I am going to rush out and buy one.

    The Civic LX did not do well in C&D's test but they still recommended the car. There have been a few not-so-favorable reviews of the Jetta/Golf as well so it's a draw.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    And your cut and paste said it best...It was rare for Honda to have one. I have that test right here. I've never owned an LX so I can't relate, my EX's and SI's have been fine. C&D also have placed the Focus on their Top 10 for four years now. Kinda makes you wonder exactly what the criteria are and tarnishes the Accords record number of appearances there.


    Of course one possibly off production Civic should deem Hondas quality slipping when nearly every other review of the Civic is glowing.

    http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/new/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/20836.htm

    or maybe in Ireland

    http://www.motornet.ie/news/templates/mntemplate_reviews.asp?articleid=2122&zoneid=2

    Everyone else loves the little Civic.

    Who cares about a warranty...I don't want to use it in the first place. Warranty does you no good if you have 30 minutes to get to work and your car won't start. We are on our 5th new Honda product and have only required warranty service once. We returned a Civic 4 months after purchasing it because we found metal shavings in the exterior paint. Honda gave us $1000 and an 1999 EX Accord at cost. They also were very generous on the trade of the Civic. Won us over. They didn't have to do anything for us.

    You were wrong too, the R32 weighs 3350 according to the link above. Turn dypos.

  • gsgman69gsgman69 Member Posts: 75
    According to the vwvortex.com writer Jamie Vondruska "The R32 tips the scales at a heavy 3,256 lb."

    If you want you can email him at:
    jamie@vwvortex.com

    Regarding the warranty the each 2003 Civic SI will, according to edmunds.com, need an average of $507 in repairs for years 4 and 5. It's not realistic to base it off the few examples you have had personally since there is no statistical sampling there.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Edmunds rated the True cost to own of the GTI higher than the Si by 5 cents per mile. The SI is actually the cheapest. The GTI in 5 years will cost you $30,296 vs. the Civic's 26,457. By the way look at the resale.

    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/honda/civic/si2drhatchback20l4cyl5m/tco.html?id=lin0648

    Using Edmunds no less.

    Notice those repairs were the total after 5 entire years. Over the course of three years. Commendable I think.

    VW's repairs you ask? $663 in two years. And $11,000 in depreciation. I would have left that one off if I were you.
    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/volkswagen/gti/18t2drhatchback18l4cylturbo5m/tco.html?id=lin0648


    Not everyone likes the R32 either hmm.

    http://www.carkeys.co.uk/roadtest/RT000255.htm

    He called it a little nose heavy. 3.2L may be a little too much in the nose of such a small car.


    Maybe in the modification to meet crash standards they had to make it a little heavier.

    http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=vw&cat_code=v_home&loc_code=index&content_code=04234578

    That's why Car and Driver says it weighs 3350lbs. Could be that way in U.S. trim since the lighter weight is what the Euro one weighs.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/carnews/0211_upfront_golf.xml

This discussion has been closed.