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Honda Civic Si vs. VW GTI
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Comments
That was electra_rising. Here's the post.
electra_rising Dec 2, 2002 5:09pm
I quoted him. But no quotation marks. My bad.
Not to mention the Golf has been riding on the same twist beam rear suspension since it was a Rabbit.
But maybe that post was just trying to get something started...Nevermind.
"According to the ALG, its Residual Value Awards honor "those vehicles in each segment predicted to retain the highest percentage of their original price." In other words, these are the cars that will be worth the most in three or four years, when most leases will end. In addition to naming specific cars for awards, ALG also gave awards to two manufacturers. Volkswagen of America won the "Industry Brand Residual Value Award" and Mercedes-Benz USA won the "Luxury Brand Residual Value Award."" Link to the whole story here http://www.edmunds.com/advice/leasing/articles/46807/article.html
Plus, VW commercials of late have also begun to claim the highest resale values in their classes, are you suggesting that VW is advertising falsely?
Again, since that study includes repairs as well as depriciation, shouldn't VW have scored much lower since their vehicles are horribly unreliable? Show me number to the contrary. Find some info which shows VW's resale values to be much lower than other similar cars.
When looking at pure reliability surveys the Civic will come out on top. There is no extrapolating from vague awards necessary for that. It's in black and white in any pure reliablity study you consult.
And as far as resale..I just showed you one. Since this is the GTI vs Civic forum I'm sure this has been hashed out before. Just read back.
So now you want to compare old vehicles, not the new ones. OK I can play that game. Go check the classifieds for an old air-cooled VW. Old Beetles and Ghias cost more to buy used now than they did when they were new, granted inflation have a part in that, but nonetheless cars hit a level where their depriciation levels off after a number of years. You compared a few cars now I'll do the same.
On the Kelley Blue Book site a 2000 Civic Si with 50K miles and no additional options other than those already selected in Good condition comes up at $12,905. selecting a 2000 GTI Turbo GLS with 50K miles as well and no additional options other than those already selected in Good condition gets a value of $14,340. Even adding the options to make the Si equivilent the value went up to only $13,215 still over $1,000 lower than the GTI. And a VR6 model goes over $15,000. So all those people out there paying over $15,000 for a used Civic Si are all getting hosed. Seems they are all just brainwashed into believing that VTEC is a godsend and their Si is actually worth more than $15,000, kinda funny actually. I may start investing in Si's. I'll buy them for what they are actually worth and turn around to sell them to the highest bidder, hell if I can make a few thousand on each car, why not.
According to KBB 30141 area code retail at 45,000 miles is $14,910. $2600 loss in three years and 45,000 miles. That's awesome value retention.
If you look at ALG it did award VW the overall award but Honda held 3 top spots and the whole site seemed to say Japanese/European good .. domestic bad. It never said VW has a huge advantage over Honda and in almost every breath that VW was mentioned in so was Honda.
People who are paying $15,000 for an SI aren't being hosed if they can drive it for a year and then sell it for $14,000. If you look up 93-95 SI's in good condition they are still going for a pretty penny private owner .. if you can find one. Same with 91-93 GS-R's. The SI will remain in high demand because of it's easy nature to mod and it's reliability.
A 2000 SI retailed for $17,500. A 2000 GTI 1.8T retailed for $19,995. Difference of $2500. So if the GTI is only worth $1000 more the SI has made up $1500 and lost a lower percentage of it's value.
Now, a thought that a concensus could possibly be reached on... Si= better buying car, GTI= better leasing car? Not that there aren't great leasing deals out there on the Si...there's a very enticing $199/month $0 down 48 month lease available on leftover '02s (locally at least). I'm just throwing the thought out there.
Mike
And a 2000 model car could quite easily be (and probably is) 3 years old.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://www.cheap-auto-car-insurance-quotes.net/g-article01.html
"* How many miles has the vehicle been driven (the average is about 10,000 to 12,000 miles per year)?"
The most mileage I have seen on a lease special is 15,000 miles per year. But of course this IS Edmunds where people can't understand the difference between a feature and a glitch even though every Honda behaves the same.
I guess it's a glitch Hondas require Honda specific power steering fluid. Or that all Hondas before this engine series ran in the reverse direction than most other cars. Or that Honda CD players don't display the time on the CD's. Nope not glitches. Just the way they designed em. Don't like it, don't buy it.
Every thing is based on averages. I know there are people that drive 100,000 mile in a year. But they aren't the average.
So you are right there is no point to debate anything with a bot. Mainly because the bot will only use facts and not personal anecdotes that can't stand up to logic.
Even a saleswoman??? and a driver of a 1994 Lexus can use facts to debunk someone who says a GTI is reliable? Compared to a Honda? Get real.
http://www.autooninfo.net/ReliabilityPercentranksMotorVehicle.htm
Man there's a lotta red on that VW part of the link above ........
http://www.myvwlemon.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro&BypassCookie=true
and
http://redstorm91.myforum.net/index.php3?more=432
and
http://www.carsurvey.org/viewcomments_review_16816.html
or check any other reliability survey.
You buy a VW you take your chances.
Si's have ABS,and EBD, side airbags are available if you want em(the only option), cruise, keyless, and 5 star safety front and 4 star side without side airbags. So much for tin can.
How is the GTI a stellar success if VW can't sell more cars than Hyundai anymore? They sell more Civics than they sell VW's as a whole.
Like I said in another forum. Anecdotes mean nothing when they aren't based on fact. I can show proof that VW's are NOT reliable, the SI is not a "tin can", the SI has reasonable content at it's price point especially since it has only one option, there is a significant number of horror stories littering the web about VW's in general, in fact the Beetle is a used car "to avoid" according to CR, and the link above shows VW's reliability as lacking compared to most.
Here's another link from the site...
Direct comparison to Honda. Of course the latest data is 1998 but I doubt the such a large divide will be made up that quickly.
http://www.autooninfo.net/ReliabilityPercentranksVolkswagen.htm
Thank god for simple basic cars that seem to have just as many features as the awesome great VW's. I think I would rather turn on my own windshield wipers and adjust my own heat.
wow - you can get side airbags as an option on the tin can civic and honda's top line EX V6 has curtain air bags "available" a $15k GL Golf has them all standard - along with ABS, traction control etc, etc all standard and VW doesn't have to give them away at fire sale prices or make cutting edge safety items "available as the only option" - LOL - path-et-ic
FYI - as for your resale blah, blah, blah eariler:
"Volkswagen was ranked #1 among mass-market manufacturers for best residual value in the Automotive Lease Guide's 2002 Residual Value Awards." Do you think it's because they don't have to sell them for below invoice to move them off the lots like the ugly tin can SI's??? Or subsidize leases like Accords?
The GTI sells on it's merits - the SI (and most other Honduh's) sells because it's so heavily discounted - resale on an SI will be a joke.
Standard side airbags. Standard curtain airbags.
Standard full size spare tire.
Standard floor mats.
Standard ASR and optional ESP.
4 yr. 50,000 mile b2b warranty.
Heated mirrors standard.
16" wheels standard with 17" optional.
Heated seats optional.
Standard stereo that is much better than the Si's.
CD player and cassette player standard.
Armrest standard.
Cargo hooks in the hatch area. (nice to have)
Full carpet in hatch area instead of plastic on the sides like the Si.
Gas struts on the hood instead of a cheap prop rod.
Storage areas for first aid kit and 6 disc cd changer.
Wide selection of aftermarket parts and accessories available directly from VW.
1.8T is a Wards 10 best engine.
There are so many extra items that make the GTI stand out in a comparision to the Si. When you own a VW you take for granted these features.
Unfortunately, the VW dealer network is TERRIBLE. Quality of materials is excellent but the reliability of components is below average.
My personal experience owning a VW Golf and VW Jetta was excellent as far as relibility. But the poor dealership service and the maintenance requirements made me so disgusted that I am now driving an Si.
If the GTI were the same price as an Si I would put up with the VW aggravations and would have kept my Golf. VW needs to fix their dealer network ASAP.
Auto down & UP both windows.
5 yr 60K warranty (may be only as good as dealer).
16" wheels, though most GTIs seem to have 17"
Telescopic steering wheel.
Both front seats can easily be raised or lowered.
LARGE, illuminated in glove box.
ALL switches are illuminated.
Remote release of the hatch.
Easy rear seat entry system for both front seats, with memory.
Illuminated vanity mirrors.
Lights in the rear seat passenger compartment.
Auto door locking @ 8 mpg (not everyone likes this
Heated seats as option (seems to be on all GTIs).
Adjustable headrests including articulation headrests (the Sis are NOT at allcomfy).
Foglights.
Lower insurance rates according to AllState
Better EPA highway mileage @ 31 v 30 (many GTI owners report 35 mpg highway).
Sadly, the Si is a stripper in comparison? What can't Honda give us a few simple more simple creature comforts like armrests & seat heigh adjustment (both were on the 00 EX)? No wonder I am leaning toward the GTI despite having owned 5 great Honda civics since 1985.
I love the performance & features of the GTI, but a few facts like the above still make me nervous. If I finally actually get up enough courage to purhase a GTI I hope & pray that it is as reliable as yours has been (so far)!
One important thing to keep in mind is that '02 GTIs have been on sale since last September at the normal model-year changeover, whereas '02 SIs didn't get to dealers until March '02-ish. Basically, the GTI has been out longer, and the propensity to sell increases as time goes on, not to mention there's more out there (should be anyway). I remember earlier this year hearing of people selling their early '02 GTIs in favor of the 337, new MINIs, and the like. There's quite a few people still trying to sell used 337s for over the original sticker too. People will always find a reason to sell anything, it's nothing to get unnerved about.
Mike
You stated the list was in alphabetical order, so yes VW is going to be at the bottom.
Your post indicates that number of vehicles sold is more important than the vehicle.
In 2001 Volkswagen delivered a total of 865,500 Golf vehicles to its customers.
On June 25th 2002 the 21,517,415th Golf was manufactured. Thats right, 21 million.
In the US in November of 2002 VW sold about 30,000 cars and Honda sold 100,000.
Since Honda sells 3 times as many vehicles does this mean they are better. If so then that must mean GM is the best because they sold 300,000 plus in November.
Is the number of problems per 100 vehicles the most important factor in vehicle purchasing?
Must not be since VW is experiencing record sales month after month and year after year in the US.
Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout.
2001 Sporty Segment- winner is VW GTI
quote- Volkswagen models continue to do well in the study, with the Beetle setting the APEAL standard for compact cars every year since its introduction in 1998. The Jetta ranks highest for the third year in a row in the entry midsize car segment, and the GTI ranks most appealing in the sporty car segment.
2001 winners in compact segment were VW Beetle and VW Golf.
In midsize VW Jetta
VW's are recognized for design and execution as well as being recognized for being below average in quality.
Where is Honda in this list? Only the Odyssey is present.
The 2001 information you quoted is not U.S. information since VW only sold 400,000 or so total units last year here acording to my link including numbers with Audi. Who is the one with the false information?
You are right VW is at the bottom since it begins with V. But it is at least number 23. Is that much better? I wouldn't have mentioned that.
The nameplate Golf has been around since the Rabbit. Until this year it was the best selling car in Europe. Peugeot took care of that though. Our Rabbit was called the Golf in Europe. In fact the Golf still has the rear twist beam suspension used in the Golf/Rabbit from the 70's.
GM sold that many total cars but they also comprise how many marques? At least 6.
Yes Honda IS better in the U.S. than VW.
Honda is also experiencing record sales. In fact if you would read the chart again it would show you Honda is UP 3% while VW is DOWN about the same amount. Considering the percentages though 3% of Honda's figure is much more impressive.
Like I said in my last post... I would leave this one alone.
Is all the extra equipment that is standard on the GTI worth $600 a year?
VW is also present on another study...
Consumer Reports 2003 Buyers Guide
Worst Used Cars: Volkswagen New Beetle
Used cars to Avoid:Jetta 4 cylinder 99-00
New Beetle 98-00
Passatt 98
Notice Honda's dealerships near the top.
Honda's dependability near the top of any survey.
Especially JD Power long term survy.
Even if the equipment were worth it. The peace of mind you get with Hondas outweighs heated mirrors. Available in Canadian SiR's.
How about explaining what CR or JD Power reliability ratings mean real world. For example if the Si was rated at 100 problems per 100 vehicles and GTI at 200 then one more problem would be experienced. The rating would be twice as bad for one problem. Big deal!
GTI does offer more content than Si. It is more expensive though.
The only thing you want to discuss is reliability. The fact is that Honda is better. Instead of discusing content or perhaps the views of automotive press the only other thing you want to harp on is sales numbers. Who cares? If I am driving a Si or GTI I care I about enjoyment of the car not if 10 other people bought the same model.
First year Odysseys had issues. VW {insert model here} has issues even though the car is several years old. The Beetle is a nightmare.
In the real world a car that has very few complaints and a history of steller performance shows that the cars with several complaints and a trail on online horror stories should be avoided. With VW products you don't have only one source that says not to buy one, there are several.
Let's say one of the Golf "features" was a gold dispenser, it would do you no good if it didn't work when you needed it.
I owned a 2001 Golf for two years. During the time I had to make two unscheduled trips to dealer for problems. The problem was broken window regulators. The window regulators were redesigned for 2003 and are being replaced free of charge by VW on all affected models that are prior to 2003. So two times in two years.
For my 2002 Si I have 2,000 miles on it. As of next week it will have required two visits to the dealer for problems. Twice in two months.
My personal experience so far is nothing to impress with Honda.
The VW dealer is a real pain in the butt though. Honda dealer is very pleasant.
But check the VW complaint boards. Those are problems. When you factor in that they sell far fewer VW's than Hondas you have to worry about your chances of getting a good one.
Anony is my fiance. We have had 2 2000 Si's and 2 2002 Si's. My 2000 runs great at 36K. And her first one was totalled. No return trips to the dealer for neither.
To clarify: It's okay to criticize a vehicle or an idea, but we draw the line when it comes to bashing people/participants that don't share the same opinion... or drive the same make as you. Let's start over now on a friendlier note. Thanks!
Revka
Hatchbacks & Wagons Host
Revka did you delete an anony post from last night?
GTI is a very nice car and the Si is a very nice car. I like both of them. Unfortunately there are too many people that have "I will never by brand X" or "I will never buy a car that is German or Japanese" attitudes that only try attack the vehicles on this basis rather than compare the models based on their features and capabilities.
GTI is turbo and Si is naturally aspirated. Why not discuss this instead of JD Power and CR?
I sold cars for a few years and the customers were more interested in the color and payment than anything else.
At least we are objective when it comes even to the cars that we own ourself. We do see the good and the bad in all cars. No matter what you say, you'll never convince the two of them that their beloved Honda is not prefect. At least we have owned the Germans and the Japaneses. And I don't think either of them have ever owned a German marquee. They might have heard or read about the problems.
I say just save your breath and let them both worship Honda. At least they are not against us
Pro: The H in front of the car - that should mean impeccable realibity and safety
Cons:
- Crappy tires in the wet/snowy conditions
- Defective AC system
- Lousy gas mileage (around 22mpg - all highway driving 60mph roundtrip) that hopefully will get better as this is my second tank of gas (note: same gas station, Mobil, that I use to fill up for my previous 01 A4. Averaging 28mpg in the A4)
- Seat belts to far behind to reach in my driving position
- Interior of the car starting to creak in the cold over bumpy roads (not noticable if the radio is on)
- Whinny transmission when in reverse. Went out w/ colleague and freak the living daylights out of her when she heard it. Had to explain that it is a FEATURE of Honda. It is really loud when radio if off and no other traffic around. But it is a Honda feature, like the defective AC System
- Dash lighting is poor. Orange color makes it hard to read around dusk time
- More to come
A/C was designed that way. If you don't like it you should have bought something else. A problem is a malfunction. You A/C performs as designed. You just don't like the way Honda designed it.
Michelin tires are known as some of the best quality tires on the market. I'm sure the "average" comsumer will disagree with you. Do you think the 17" tires on the VW will perform better in the snow? I doubt it.
Gas mileage gets better after the break in. You car is still new. Not quite in the position to judge it.
Seat belts? Shoulda bought a different car. that's the way they designed em. Not a problem.
Cold creaks are normal. Check other forums all cars do it. It's cold ya know.
All Honda trannies whine in reverse. They designed it that way. Not a problem. It's the design. Honda is the gold standard of FWD manual tranmissions.
Dash lighting is the same as it was when you bought the car. The way they designed it.
It really sounds like you bought the wrong car if you think all these are problems. Not a single one is out of line with any other 2002-2003 SI that you would be able to purchase. In fact the only "problem" that isn't shared with other Hondas is possibly the dash lighting since it varies from model to model.
It really sounds like you bought the wrong car since you really have no "problem" that any other SI owner has. Except other owners recognise them as the "features" that they were designed to be..
I've known people with VW products too. Let's just say that's why I would never own one. But they do drive great.
I saw a Yugo last week. It was clean and ran well from where I saw it. If that one guy has never had a problem with his Yugo would you take his word for it? Or would you find other sources of information? ALL information sources regarding VW's say DON'T BUY A VW!!!!! If they have any info at all since the sample is so small.
No point having features if you can't use them. The Daewoo had features galore but look what happened there. Slammed on the reliability front and no one cared.
Features do you no good when you are in a loaner car because yours is in the shop.
The GTI doesn't sell..Period. They don't give em away because they know better than to send them here. If the GTI sells on it's merits I guess so does the regular Civic. The Golf has NO merits without the GTI is what you are saying huh? A total of 30,000 unit a year pales in comparison to the Civic. And since the Civic is such a "tin can" it's a wonder why they can sell over 10 TIMES as many of them as they do Golfs. Even with all the standard features.
Still stuck on the residual huh. I don't lease so it doesn't matter to me. And few people buy VW's so I guess it wouldn't matter much to anyone else.
But the Accord and Civic sell 800,000 units a year and still have stellar resale. That speaks louder than a car few people want new.
But as usual a bunch of personal anecdotes with no credible backing.
Here's a couple links.
http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=4042
Survey scores
1. Lexus 169
2. Toyota 146
3. Saturn 144
4. BMW 138
5. Honda 132
6. Hyundai 132
7. Acura 129
8. Volvo 126
9. Mitsubishi 122
10. Kia 121
11. Nissan 120
12. Porsche 118
13. Mercedes-Benz 117
14. Subaru 116
15. Audi 115
16. Suzuki 115
17. Mazda 113
18. GMC 112
19. Infiniti 112
20. Cadillac 110
21. Chevrolet 110
22. Saab 108
Industry average 108
Below average (in alphabetical order)
Buick
Chrysler
Dodge
Ford
Isuzu
Jeep
Lincoln
Mercury
Oldsmobile
Pontiac
Volkswagen
Daewoo, Hummer, Jaguar, Land Rover and Mini were not ranked due to small sample sizes.
Wheres's VW? Oh yeah at the bottom.
http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=4024
Where does VW rank??? Oh yeah near the bottom.
If I were a VW owner I would leave this one alone. Proven sub-par reliability, proven sub-par resale (compared to Honda), and proven sub-par dealer network.
204 Meca you want to know why there are so many supposedly superior GTI's for sale? Maybe this link'll give a hint.
http://www.thecomplaintstation.com/cgi-bin/frames.cgi?0832
or
http://www.planetfeedback.com/sharedLettersList/0,2941,104963-16-0-0-20-60-fb_date-desc,00.html
It is disappointing that you will not move beyond the sales number and reliability statistics to compare the drivability, performance and features of the GTI and Si.
There are several relibility surveys that agree with the complaint boards. They say VW's are problematic. That is not an opinion. I've shown it to be fact.
Daewoo had many features but is no longer in business. It takes more than a lot of features to be a success in the U.S. Fact.
The post was deleted so I removed the offending portion and reposted it.
Another fact there is that the VW has a very poor dealership network. Honda doesn't. Fact. Advantage Honda again.
Just quit.
Opinions are somebody saying "my GTI drives better" or "my SI looks better". Facts are defined as this "a piece of information presented as having objective reality
- in fact : in truth" Objective reality is what surveys like JD Powers and Consumer Reports provide to us. The info is there for us to look at and make our own decision. Some people are swayed by the way the VW or Honda may drive, some people might be swayed by the number of buttons, but the data that these sources provide isn't dependent on any of those factors. Owner's respond with their problems and that's where the rankings come from. So if you don't like your car's place on the totem pole complain about your fellow owners and don't shoot the messenger.
http://www.parkers.co.uk/choosing/car_reviews/main_review.asp?model_id=749
But it normally is viewed as conservative, not so fun to drive, for example, compared with Ford.
That's one of the reasons why they have such a diverse range of choices in their automotive marketplace.
I'm glad you Honda people like your cars - I simply don't and no amount of data you spout about VW's is going to change my mind. I like my GTI and all my previous VW's a lot.
The only two vehicles I own are VW's and BMW's (currently 01 X5, 02 GTI). I actually test drove an MDX when I bought the X5 - I knew I would never be an MDX owner just sitting behind the wheel - Honda's just don't have that European feel - cheap and low rent comes to mind. But hey I did compare the X5 to something when I was "shopping". The only other marque I'm a fan of is Land Rover - I put 160k miles on a Range Rover (what the X5 replaced) that Rangie had it's quirks but it was one of the best vehicles I've ever owned - I'd have traded it for another one if I hadn't been transferred to the sunbelt and had no earthly need for one.
You Honda guys will never own a VW, Land Rover or BMW - that would be way too close to living on the edge for you - we are not the same type of car people. I say let's agree to disagree.
Here is a glimpse of what I'm talking about - I'm already looking at the replacement of my 02 GTI - by the middle of next year I will be driving one of these - when I see and hear this VW it get me excited, gives me that "something" that no Honda will ever, ever do. I put my $1k deposit down on an R32 yesterday - can't wait.
R32 Sounds:
Anfahrt
Motor
Vorbeifahrt
Commercial-Clip:
Video
All wheel drive, 3.2 liter 241 HP VR6, 6 speed, Konig leather sport seats, climatronic, Xenon headlights with washers, DVD based Nav, rain sensing wipers, 18" wheels to name a few features. All for $32K the price of 2 heavily discounted 02 SI's (saw Honda dealer add in yesterday's paper - 02 SI's are STILL available for $16k). I think the R32 is a screaming deal for this level of performance - I can not wait!!!!
I just bought another Honda yesterday. A 03 EX-L 5 speed coupe Accord. 36 mo. lease 15k year for 325 mo. I'll be happy with that until I get my V6 6 speed after they start making them in decent numbers.
The X5, you are right I would not buy. "Used car to avoid", new car I don't need. I would own a BMW. If the 3-series had more value for the dollar. The 5 series is THE car to own in it's class. I would buy one if I had the need for a new larger sedan.
I'm not trying to change YOUR mind. Just show you that your decision is all built on emotion and not fact. I know the Civic is not selling as well as Honda thought they would. They planned on selling 15,000 SI's in a market that as rule does not buy many hatchbacks. And I also know the VW will do just fine in the numbers that they want to sell them. It sounds like a very capable car. I would want one too. But as with most VW's they are limiting production to keep prices up. 5000 worldwide.
"Of the 5000 models that will be built before the arrival of the next-generation Golf in a year, some could come to the U.S."
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/carnews/0211_upfront_golf.xml
Better order yours now. But better watch out for the EVO, STI, and lowly NEON SRT out to kill ya. Nearly 3600 pounds is a lot to stretch only 237hp with inefficient 4 wheel drive. But hey it has those rain sensing wipers.
I will agree with you on one thing. Every time i have driven a VW I did like the drive. As I have said many times before VW's DRIVE. They have a feel that is hard to describe. Locked down solid driving lil cars they are. So I know how you feel about them. Look at each of our "garage's" you can tell we will never agree on much else though.
An X5 makes no real sense to me. One of the smallest interiored SUV's on the road. I'm sure it drives very Bimmerish but shoulda just bought a 5 series. GTI...Been there. Land Rover???? Quirks??? I'll bet.
Yes, VW may not have the same reliability as Honda. But if you do opt for a GTI you get a 4-50000mi/5-60000 year warranty bumper to bumper and powertrain. With the SI you only get 3-36000/3-36000 and you don't get 4 year roadside assistance like the VW
Secondly the Golf is the 2nd bestselling car of all time. Corolla is 1st. Civics(and other Japanese cars) have never sold well in Europe because they never had the driving dynamics that Europeans have desired. This is changing, but slowly now that there are more design studios from Japanese companies located in Europe.
I also hate to say it but I don't think Honda has made many stride in quality in the last few years. C&D had a comparo and I think the Civic finished in 5th place. C&D said:
"Lows: Way too many rattles, way too many shades of metallic in the paint, harsh ride, numb path control on the interstate.
The Verdict: Something new from Honda — a loser."
Bottom line is that VW aspires to be budget versions of Audis and BMWs while Hondas aspire to be the same in regards to Acura. In other words its a question of taste.
Hey gee35coupe the R32 does not weight 3600, more like 3250. big difference.
World-wide sales don't really mean much. What's considered good somewhere else might not make it here and vice versa. GM/Ford sell more cars than anybody but that doesn't mean I am going to rush out and buy one.
The Civic LX did not do well in C&D's test but they still recommended the car. There have been a few not-so-favorable reviews of the Jetta/Golf as well so it's a draw.
Of course one possibly off production Civic should deem Hondas quality slipping when nearly every other review of the Civic is glowing.
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/new/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/20836.htm
or maybe in Ireland
http://www.motornet.ie/news/templates/mntemplate_reviews.asp?articleid=2122&zoneid=2
Everyone else loves the little Civic.
Who cares about a warranty...I don't want to use it in the first place. Warranty does you no good if you have 30 minutes to get to work and your car won't start. We are on our 5th new Honda product and have only required warranty service once. We returned a Civic 4 months after purchasing it because we found metal shavings in the exterior paint. Honda gave us $1000 and an 1999 EX Accord at cost. They also were very generous on the trade of the Civic. Won us over. They didn't have to do anything for us.
You were wrong too, the R32 weighs 3350 according to the link above. Turn dypos.
If you want you can email him at:
jamie@vwvortex.com
Regarding the warranty the each 2003 Civic SI will, according to edmunds.com, need an average of $507 in repairs for years 4 and 5. It's not realistic to base it off the few examples you have had personally since there is no statistical sampling there.
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/honda/civic/si2drhatchback20l4cyl5m/tco.html?id=lin0648
Using Edmunds no less.
Notice those repairs were the total after 5 entire years. Over the course of three years. Commendable I think.
VW's repairs you ask? $663 in two years. And $11,000 in depreciation. I would have left that one off if I were you.
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/volkswagen/gti/18t2drhatchback18l4cylturbo5m/tco.html?id=lin0648
Not everyone likes the R32 either hmm.
http://www.carkeys.co.uk/roadtest/RT000255.htm
He called it a little nose heavy. 3.2L may be a little too much in the nose of such a small car.
Maybe in the modification to meet crash standards they had to make it a little heavier.
http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=vw&cat_code=v_home&loc_code=index&content_code=04234578
That's why Car and Driver says it weighs 3350lbs. Could be that way in U.S. trim since the lighter weight is what the Euro one weighs.
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/carnews/0211_upfront_golf.xml