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Honda Civic Si vs. VW GTI

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Comments

  • gsgman69gsgman69 Member Posts: 75
    1.) they often cause extra stress on other components in the engine, suspension, etc.

    2.) they decrease reliability in many cases(like the turbocharging you mentioned as an example for an SI). So the vaulted reliability rankings of your Honda wouldn't be applicable anymore.

    3.) THEY QUITE OFTEN VOID WARRANTIES if it is determined by the dealer that the modified part caused the problem.

    So, yes you can make the last-in-class 160 hp SI engine more potent, but there is a possiblity of a much bigger price on the other end.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Do you call the GTI a real sports car? If you do you need to get out more.

    Do you really need to ramble about so many different cars to make a point?

    The Civic hybrid gets better MPG than that and doesn't have to be filled up at a truck stop.

    You can't harp about the lack of torque since the SI is only half a second slower to 60 than the GTI. Torque curve is just fine.

    Upgrades don't void warranties. Ask Rick.

    I'll post more later but I'm busy right now.
  • gsgman69gsgman69 Member Posts: 75
    1.) they often cause extra stress on other components in the engine, suspension, etc.

    2.) they decrease reliability in many cases(like the turbocharging you mentioned as an example for an SI). So the vaulted reliability rankings of your Honda wouldn't be applicable anymore.

    3.) THEY QUITE OFTEN VOID WARRANTIES if it is determined by the dealer that the modified part caused the problem.

    So, yes you can make the last-in-class 160 hp SI engine more potent, but there is a possiblity of a much bigger price on the other end.
  • gsgman69gsgman69 Member Posts: 75
    This was from the vwvortex site referring to the Magnusson Moss Act:

    "The way our laws are written, your rights to use after market parts and upgrades on your car are protected by the Magnusson Moss act, but it is not a guarantee of warranty coverage. Basically the act states that you have a right to use non-original parts on your car and still retain the factory warranty. However, if there is a failure and the manufacturer (VOLVO in this case) can show that the failure was caused by the non-original part, they can deny coverage."

    No the GTI is not a real sport car. It is a "Hot Hatch" for better or worse. I was just pointing out the Honda 4 cylinder engines are incapable of producing torque levels that are comparable to the competition, including VW. My point was that I wouldn't put a black mark on Honda for it, because they excel in other areas.

    Sorry I can get diesel at my local gas station and if you haven't heard diesels are some of the most advanced and efficient powertrains available. Within a decade almost 50% of the cars sold in Europe will be diesels, with hybrids trailing way behind.

    Sorry the SI is 3/4 of a second slower to 60 mph in Motortrend and .7 second slower in Automobile mag.
  • gsgman69gsgman69 Member Posts: 75
    Actually the Mini has the most comprehensize collection of safety features in its class and:

    The MINI Cooper's crashworthiness received the top rating of 'Good' and earned the car a 'Best Pick' designation in the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety's December frontal offset crash tests.
    The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety's ratings reflect performance in a 40 mph frontal offset crash test into a deformable barrier. Based on the results of this test, the Institute evaluates the crashworthiness of passenger vehicles, assigning each vehicle a rating of good, acceptable, marginal, or poor.

    MINI's strong performance comes just weeks after the MINI Cooper earned a 4 star rating in the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's (NHTSA) crash test results.
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    Jan 03 EuroTuner, page 28

    VDAT e.V. tuning test:

    195/65 r15 with Dunlop SP Sport 200

    225/40r18 with Dunlop SP Sport 9000

    62 mph to 0 mph
    Dry stopping:
    18 inchers stopped shorter by 13.5 feet

    50 mph to 0 mph
    Wet:
    18 inchers stopped shorter by 9.5 feet

    Though...I'm a little skeptical...due to different tires. I'm fine with the tire sizes...
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    But bumpworthy kinda pitiful as I linked. So if you don't total it it will suffer more damage than average.

    http://www.msnbc.com/news/839767.asp

    " And on the front angle test, the car’s frame is actually twisted — just that fix is $1,489.

    “That’s excessive by any definition,” says O’Neill. “We shouldn’t be damaging frames in five mile an hour impacts.”

    The Mini Cooper earns a “marginal” rating."
    Sometime you gotta wonder if we have the same internet.
  • gsgman69gsgman69 Member Posts: 75
    That is too bad about the bumper damage in regards to the Mini. I think the designers probably opted to make passenger saftey the prime concern in this case.

    Reminds me of something though about a European magazine that I have read in the past, "Car" I believe it was. Anyway they had not only depreciation rating for every car, but also insurance ratings too. That way you could easily comparision shop between cars and get a ballpark figure w/o having to bother your insurance company every time. Does anyone publication in the US do this?
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    Too bad the Mini designers couldn't figure out how to make the car safe AND design it well enough not to cause that level of damage in a 5 MPH impact.
  • hamproofhamproof Member Posts: 241
    in the same test than the new Accord. About 50% less in expense repair. Actually, I think it could be closer to 75% since Audi or German car parts generally cost more than the Japanese or American counterparts.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
  • hamproofhamproof Member Posts: 241
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    There are enough sources of bad news on the GTI that I don't have to stray.
  • hamproofhamproof Member Posts: 241
    if it has the nice rims, lowered suspension, tints, exhaust etc.

    Haha.. just having too much time at work on a Friday.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    Try this:

    If they were priced the same, would you take an SI or a GTI?

    If you like the GTI better, how much more would you pay to get a GTI?

    If you like the SI better, how much more would you pay to get an SI?

    I'm not sure, but in the real world it looks like it takes 2-7 more K$ to get a GTI. Were it me spending 337 bucks, I'd get an RSX-S (even though I'd rather have hatch).
  • hamproofhamproof Member Posts: 241
    Assuming both cars will be of equal reliability (Honda and VW),

    At the same price, I'll take the GTi
    At a higher price, <$20k, I'll take the GTi

    Through carsdirect.com, I can get an 03 GTi 1.8T around $19k compared to $18k for the 03 Si.

    RSX-S can be had for $21k now.

    But since I was looking for a beater for my daily commute, I chose the cheapest car I could live with - 02 Si.

    If I plan on changing car every 2-3 years, I'll get the GTi.

    I made the mistake of selling my very reliable 97 Civic EX when I bought my 01 Audi A4. Putting 18k miles just going to work daily cut my warranty short by a year (4y/50k). And with the quirks in the A4, I know even doing oil changes is going to be expensive. So, I sold it at the end of 2 years.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    You're assuming equal Honda and VW reliability -

    because you believe that's the case? -or-
    for the sake of argument?

    FWIW (for what it's worth), I took the GTI (and VW in general) off my want list due to reliability concerns (and smaller dealer network). I can't prove or disprove the reliability assumption; I've just made a different one than you have.

    That's good RSX-S price news!
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    Where can you get a $21,000 RSX-S new? carsdirect price is $23,600 and there are NO ads in the paper for RSX's.

    If the cars are priced the same I would take the SI. If the GTI was less and was loaded then I might consider it. Had a cjance to buy a 01 GTI GLX with 20k or so on it for $15,500. It had nice tint and a dealer-installed Neuspeed suspension. Every day I walked past it I went "oooh" which was subsequently followed by "if I only knew I could keep it running". I've never denied the GTI is a nice car. I like the looks, the drive, and the interior. I just can't deal with unknown reliability. And anyone who says VW reliability is not an unknown is just ignoring all the evidence that shows otherwise.
  • hamproofhamproof Member Posts: 241
    has a big sign on one of the RSX-S model they have on the showroom with a $21,499 price. An 02 model obviously. TMV on edmunds.com actually shows it as $22,300. So, obviously in the whole US, it is conceivable some people are getting it around $21k and some around $23k.

    In anycase, given your car buying history (anony that is), you shouldn't have problem buying the 20k miles GTI since you change cars in less than a year anyway.

    But an 01 GTi I assume w/ 150HP is probably not comparable to the 160HP Si, if it is me. But we all know how you feel about having too much HP in a little hatchback. The 02 GTi 1.8T onwards has 180HP.

    Also, I'm surprised if the cars, say 02 GTi and 02 Si are priced the same, you'll take the Si but if the GTi was loaded and at the same price, you'll consider it. Keep in mind, the 02 GTi as it is has more than what the Si offers. The only package I see worth upgrading are the 17" rims and ESP. Since we also know how you feel about having too big of a rim on your Si, I assume you'll pass on this option. ESP is only a $230 or so option.

    So, you are saying the 02 GTi w/ ESP BUT even lower than the $16k offering price of the Si, you'll only consider it?? I guess that's why you are a saleswoman. Probably a good one at that if you can convince the VW dealership to load up the GTi and sell it for less than the decontented Si, simply because the Si, in your mind, will be more reliable.

    But what do you have to worry about? You change cars practically every 6 months anyway based on the information gee35coupe offered. And if you buy the GTi new, it'll be long gone before you even use 1/4 of the warranty period, no?
  • gsgman69gsgman69 Member Posts: 75
    From the Automotive Lease Guide's ANNUAL RESIDUAL VALUE AWARDS:

    "Heading the list this year is Volkswagen of America with the Volkswagen Brand winning the Industry Brand Residual Value Award. Volkswagen also received the award for the Midsize Car Segment with the Volkswagen Passat."........

    "American Honda Motor Co., Inc. received several segment awards, including: the Acura MDX for the Compact SUV Segment; the CRV for the Sub Compact SUV Segment; and the Odyssey for the Minivan Segment, a repeat winner for the past four years."
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    I wouldn't buy a 0 mile VW .. why would I buy one with 20,000 miles. I did consider it while I was inside the car but once out I came back to my senses. The GTI is a nice car BUT I want a nice car that's reliable. I can't guarantee that I will get a reliable GTI but from my past experience with Honda chances are I will get a reliable SI. And even if I would get rid of it after 6 months to a year I don't want to spend that year in the shop or spend it wishing I had bought the Honda instead.

    I kinda feel this way about it ...
    17" wheels: $1000
    Springs: $240
    Good set of speakers: depends on my e-bay luck
    Knowing your car will start every morning and all of the windows will go up and down: Priceless
  • gsgman69gsgman69 Member Posts: 75
    From the Automotive Lease Guide's ANNUAL RESIDUAL VALUE AWARDS:

    "Heading the list this year is Volkswagen of America with the Volkswagen Brand winning the Industry Brand Residual Value Award. Volkswagen also received the award for the Midsize Car Segment with the Volkswagen Passat."........

    "American Honda Motor Co., Inc. received several segment awards, including: the Acura MDX for the Compact SUV Segment; the CRV for the Sub Compact SUV Segment; and the Odyssey for the Minivan Segment, a repeat winner for the past four years."
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    The ins. adjuster has promised a valuation on my stolen '99 SI Monday. (They lie though, LOL.)

    Anybody wanna guess what value they will set? 42,500 miles and great shape.

    Wouldn't it be nice if they go with TMV?
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    I would say somewhere around $12,000. It's hard to say. But don't take their first offer if it's not fair. Produce pricing reports from Edmunds, KBB, etc to show what a replacement would cost you.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    Both Edmunds And Kelly BB put the retail on a '99 SI with fairly low millage at over 15K, a little higher than 4 banger GTI, same year and same condition.

    I'm pleased, personally and in the context of our discussion.
  • vadpvadp Member Posts: 1,025
    I wonder about the '02 Si.
    It looks like it won't be able to hold its value as much as the previous years models.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    You probably won't get retail. You will get whatever they determine fair market value is for your car or the cost of a replacement vehicle. I don't think it will be retail but if they add sales tax in you might be very close.
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    Interesting to speculate on, given the discounts on MSRP. I figgure it depends a lot on what comes out for '04 and '05.
    If some real fun stuff doesn't hit the floors, it's possible we could drive an '02 and sell at at profit 2 years down the pike, LOL. Not likely, granted; but even the possibility is pretty rare.
  • 204meca204meca Member Posts: 369
    More fuel for the fire -- gotta keep the entertainment coming! I don't recall anyone refering to Edmund's consumer ratings of the GTI & Civic. Owners give the 02 GTI an average rating of 9.4 (01 is similar) vs. 8.6 for 02 Civic (admittedly all civic models, not just Si). Also Epinion owners rate their GTIs very high, more so that Civic Si owners. Are these owners on to something?
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Even I would buy a VW if they had 1 year leases. The VW's I have driven would have all earned a 10. Except for the one with the blown transmission.

    Additionally if you take off the 1 rating of 1 from the person at the end who said they "rejected the car"(how do you do that?) the Civic has a 9.6 which is more than likely more indicative of the car...
    The actual SI only had 16 reviews.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Maybe Honda has only sold 16 Si's in the 10 months they have been available;)
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    I didn't look hard enough to find the consumer ratings 204meca gives. I do see on Edmunds 'all Civics' get a 9.0 while "all GTI's" get an 8.5. I think those ratings are hard to compare since "Civics" includes the range of body styles, engines, target markets.

    Good point, Gee; short term ownership makes the reliability/durability issue almost irrelevant, and a lease gives one absolute foreknowledge of the depreciation.
    LOL, reminds me of my 5.0 Mustang (I loved it). It would have been best to own during miles 2000-45,000 when there were no durability/reliability issues.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    Honda has sold at least 6 here. I know 2 people who own them and see a few on the roads around here so saying they only sold 16 is a bit of an understatement.
  • gsgman69gsgman69 Member Posts: 75
    only joshing. Actually here in Austin, TX I have yet to see an SI except on the dealer's lot, but there is an NSX down the street from me.

    Come to think of it I haven't seen an SVT Foucs either of which I've heard there was almost 5000 produced for model year 2002.

    So were there actually 15,000 SIs prodcued for 2002?

    Anyone know how many will be produced for 2003?

    Just passed the 10k mark this weekend on my 2002 GTI 1.8t. The left rear window makes a squeking noise sometimes now since I got back from my Thanksgiving weekend trip. I went to Big Bend National Park and took some of the unpaved roads(as shortcuts) and got this along with a slight gash in my oil pan from a rather large rock. Luckily no leaks or other problems.

    Car was great though and versatile enough for a two person camping trip. I even put a 12 foot plus inflatable canoe(deflated of course) in the rear of the car so we could go rafting on the Rio Grande. The rental shop said there were no good tie downs in the front of the car for a convential canoe. Still we had a blast and it "only" took me about 2 hours to clean up the car after I got back.
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    The Squeak you hear are the door seals - the thick rubber door seal is dry - Put some type of rubber/ vinyl preservative on them and the squeaking sound will disappear. Almost 14k miles on my 02 1.8t GTI without a single problem. Still makes me smile every time I drive it.
  • sunilbsunilb Member Posts: 407
    when my '99 Si was stolen (10/01), the insurance company did a study of what similar cars (same car, yr, and similar mileage) were selling for in my area (LA at the time) and gave me the average selling price + tax + DMV fees.

    It turned out to be slightly less than what KBB and Edmunds TMV was, but since they had the comps (which are real, whereas KBB and TMV are estimates), I was satisfied.

    The saddest thing, of course, was seeing my car after the cops had found it--- completely stripped, and really only a shell (ie, the body was there, but nothing inside or under the hood!).
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    Yep, I'm bummed, too, that my '99 SI is gone. Dunno if I'll ever see mine again; it's reported a blue Honda was the get-away car from a bank robbery. I figure it's ditched deep.

    I hope to get as good a settlement as yours. My ins. co. is stalling, which is dumb since they're paying for a rental. How long did you wait?
  • sunilbsunilb Member Posts: 407
    I completely empathize with you... it's such an awful feeling having a car stolen.

    My car was missing for ~ 5 days. Once it was found, the insurance company brought it to a body shop to work up an estimate on how much it would cost to get it up and running (they have a rule that if it's more than 80% of the wholesale price, then it's considered totalled). Well, mine had NOTHING under the hood, no seats, no gauges, no wheels.... obviously, it was deemed a total loss.

    After that, they did a market survey (as I mentioned earlier). The whole process took around two months.

    I really miss that car (it wasn't my first car, but first new one... and my first Honda).

    Well, now I know why insurance rates are so high on Hondas (has the new immoblizer lowered rates for the new SIs?).
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    Mine has been gone 2 weeks, now; and I think it is gone for good.

    I sure hope I can get a settlement sooner than 2 months!

    I dunno if the new immoblizer has lowered rates for the new SI's. Makes sense that it would, and I hope it does since I'm planning on a new SI.
  • gsgman69gsgman69 Member Posts: 75
    Thanks for the tip.

    So have you done any mods to your GTI?

    About the only thing I've done to mine is a dieselgeek short shifter which it desperately needed as I hate long throws.

    I think the first thing to address is the suspension. I've heard that there are strut/spring packages that preserve most of the ride qualities while improving the handling enormously.

    Didn't you also say you owned an BMW X5. This leads me to the obvious question - which handles better your GTI or it?
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    Heck yes I've done mods to my 02 1.8t GTI - I've transformed it into a little beast. I went with the Audi TT shifter, it doesn't shorten the throws as much as dieselgeek but it's a nice compromise for $36 at the Audi dealer - A freind of mine has a dieselgeek on his VR6 GTI.

    As far as suspension goes I've done a lot - I like a really tight suspension and live in the sunbelt with nice smooth roads. From Neuspeed I've got - race springs (lowers it 2"), upper front stress bar, lower front tie bar, 25mm adjustable rear sway bar. For struts/shocks I went with yellow Koni sport adjustables. I'm still trying to wear out the original 17" Michelin Pilot Sports so I can put some Falken Azenis on it. I want to get a rear stress bar as well - these stress bars are mainly for the track - not needed at all for every day driving.

    This is a very aggressive suspension I track it on the weekends with SCCA AutoX. Believe it or not it isn't that rough as long as I keep the Koni's on a softer setting for the street.

    To give the GTI a good all around and perfectly comfortable suspension, here is what I'd recommend. I'd start with a sport spring with the factory struts/ shocks, they lower it about an inch, firm the ride up just right and reduce sway. VW has them in their accessory catalog but I'd get them from Tire Rack. They are the Eibach sport springs - exactly what VW sells for about $80 less. The next step would be a rear sway bar - I like the Neuspeed 25mm because it bolts right on, is adjustable (keep it in the lowest setting) and does wonders for the handling. You don't need to do anything with the front sway bar as long as you don't go any bigger than a 25mm rear sway bar. Just these two mods will transform the rather soft factory suspension into a very nicely tightened up suspension that's not rough at all. A good place to get Neuspeed products is www.greedspeed.com or try a local tuner shop if you have one in your area.

    For the 1.8t I had the ECU reprgammed by APR www.goapr.com - amazing. Neuspeed: turbo inlet pipe, downpipe and Eurosport exhaust (perfect mellow tone, not loud at all) a Forge diverter valve (to handle the extra boost) www.forgemotorsport.com and a K&N lifetime air filter in the factory box. OMG - I can easily keep up with a friends 00 BMW MCoupe no problemo 330 3 series are no contest at all, stock S4's, blow the doors off IS300's - a blast.

    About the only other mod is I replaced the factory motor mount bushings (also known as the dog bone) with poly ones from www.suspension.com (the $16 ones) takes all of 15 minutes and is amazing how it improves shifting and motor movement under hard acceleration - the only minor drawback is you feel a very slight vibration at idle.

    The VW drivetrain is close to bulletproof, especially that 1.8t engine, amazingly over-engineered. The 1.8t can handle 300 HP with no internal modifications. I have had no problems with my modified GTI whatsoever in 14 months and 15k miles with a fair amount of them track miles. These mods have been on the car since 2k miles.

    The first question I'm asked about is the warranty - it's still fully intact except for the parts that aren't VW parts obviously. My VW dealer is mod freindly and doesn't void warranty because of mods. Most of the techs and service advisors have hooked up VW's that are as reliable as mine - VW mechanicals are amazingly stout, my GTI feels like a little tank and regularly embarasses "sports" cars that cost twice as much.

    My X5 is completely stock and handles amazingly well for an "SAV". It would be interesting to see how it compares to a stock GTI.
  • 204meca204meca Member Posts: 369
    After 4 months of seemingly endless research, multiple test drives, dealer negotiations, I finally made a decision. It took a 200 mile test drive in the Elantra GT to convince my wife & I we could pass up the 02 VW GTI & 02 Civic Si for the Elantra GT.

    All above cars are nice, all have some flaws & reliablity questions. In terms of my overall overall performance & comfort evaluation, the Elanta GT comes in 3rd, extremely close to the Si. In the end the Elanta GT met & exceeded all my needs, has a better warranty, lower cost to own, and cost over $3000 less than the closest competitor (both 02 models). Truth is, I just did not want to pay more than $7K!

    I purchased the HGT with sunroof for $6,070 cash (including Tax & license!) plus my 97 Del Sol Si. I still have plety of money left over for a strut bar and better bigger tires (on OE rims). Time will tell if this was the best decision. I suspect I will occasionally long for cheap summer thrill of the SOC VTEC running thru the gears with the top down, but right now I am quite happy!

    I appreciate all the help I have gotten on Edmunds! I will miss you, it is time to get on to real life priorities.

    PS Please pray for a peacefull solution to the Iraq situation.
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    How about Venezuela?

    They are a major supplier of oil for the US
  • rivertownrivertown Member Posts: 928
    I saw my first GTI (red, VR6) on the street today. It looked very cute.

    I saw my first Si (from the outside) on the street day before yesterday, a black one. My GF said it looks 'chopped off', unlike my white one. (She likes me, though.)
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    People at my job think my white one looks better than this black one that another co-worker has. I think it looks better too ... but I guess that's obvious.
  • rclab1rclab1 Member Posts: 2
    hello, does anyone know the MSRP
    for this Golf?

     2003 1.8 GTI w/autoStick transmission
       with Leather, sunroof, 17"wheels

    I live in the UpState NewYork area.

    thank you
  • gsgman69gsgman69 Member Posts: 75
    under New Cars|VW|GTI|2003

    You might want to think about getting ESP for a great price of $280. The only other car in this class that has this worthwhile feature is, I believe, the Mini.

    Just curious too on why you want the tiptronic manumatic cause it just adds cost and makes it slower. The 5 speeds in VWs are easy to learn to drive and will probably increase the resale values on GTIs in particular.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    I question whether 5 speed increases or decreases resale value. It is getting difficult to sell a 5 speed since most people do not know how to drive them. I just sold my Si and have sold a 5 speed VW w/in the last two years and the 5 speeds are becoming difficult to market. The Si and GTI are very enjoyable and easy to drive with manual. Sad fact is that even with a higher than average acceptance among Honda and VW buyers for manual transmission there is declining demand for manual and increasing demand for automatic.
  • gsgman69gsgman69 Member Posts: 75
    I say that because it seems Focus SVTs and Civic SIs are closer to each other in price(as well as configuration/intent) now than the SI is to the GTI.

    The $16k battle of the Ford hot hatch vs. the Honda hot hatch.

    Me, I would take the SVT but only if I could get a good warranty of say 5/60000 or above.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    mopar: Did you trade the SI or sell it? Did you buy something else?
This discussion has been closed.