Mazda RX-8

nyccarguy · October 2003

I wanted to post some info from a screamer ad I clipped out of Friday's NY Post (I'm sure It'll be there next week). The dealer was Manhattan Mazda saying something along the lines that they have over 30 RX8s in stock and are offering some sort of $399/month lease deal. The terms of the lease escape me right now as I lost the ad I clipped.

audia8q · October 2003

we did a $299 lease ad with $2500 down plus lease inception costs recently....remember with a lease a dealer can juggle the numbers to come out to any payment that might look attractive...the key is the "fine print" at the bottom.

We don't really do screamer ad's but regretfully certain types of cars don't sell well in snow season...so part of the year we offer healthy savings to turn the inventory and maintain a strong allocation for the spring and summer months.

bjversani · October 2003

I was recently out of town and the car stalled while idling and wouldn't refire. I had the car towed and rented a car to get home. All this at 10pm on a Saturday night. The local dealership stated that the engine needs to idle for at least 5 minutes before the engine is shut off or the engine will automatically flood. My question is have you had similar experiences? This car has 1500 miles on it. BJ

bjversani · October 2003

I have a mica red manual. Grand Touring Package, Appearance Package, 6 disc changer, rotary accents, rear spoiler. I'm still waiting for the shock sensor upgrade.
When I purchased the car it listed at $33,600 with the options I wanted which had to be put on later. I purchased the vehicle for $28,900 with the options listed above. Purchased 9-29-03

graphicguy · October 2003

From the deal you mentioned, it sounds like you bought your car used or as a demo. Or, they overallowed on your trade-in by a good bit.

There's no way it should stall and your dealer doesn't have a clue what he/she's talking about. No way you should idle your car for 5 minutes...that just adds to poor MPG and to polution (true of any car that idles a lot).

bjversani · October 2003

That is a true story for a price. Maybe that's why the car is in the shop. As far as the car flooding, I too feel it is a bunch of crap that the car has to idle. I'm still waiting for a call back. There is a post by dawurst on the problem and solution section of this town hall thing. He had the same thing happen and advised that he would update us. Maybe the dealership knew there was a problem on this one since I got a good deal. It also helped that I was wearing a suit and told them what I was willing to pay or I was going to the Infiniti Dealership to se what they would do for a G35. bjversani

dtran2149 · October 2003

I ended up purchasing a Velocity Red RX-8 w/ GT package + rotary accents, spoiler, & chrome wheels last week which was a demo. It had 3700 miles. My purchase price before TTL was $27,325. Before transacting, I was trying to decide between getting a new base model + Sport package now or waiting till next year and getting a pre-owned/used GT model. Since I got a price point equivalent to the base model + Sport package (assuming $1k off) now, I decided to take my chances with the demo.

I also traded in my 2003 Jeep Liberty w/ 23 k miles for $14,200 (Terry from Real World Trade-In Values had estimated $13,500). I had originally earmarked $15k for a private party sale so the $14,200 + sales tax savings amounted to roughly $15,100 in equivalent value. My difference payment before TTL was $13,125.

I love the car, and at the pricing level I got, I am OK with the trade-off that it's not a NEW car. I have really enjoyed it so far. I took it this past weekend to Fort Worth to their new Modern Art Museum and it looked like it fit right in with the architecture of the place!

On the stalling comment before, I interpreted the "Short Trip Driving Procedures" in the manual as implying you may flood your engine if you turn off the car before it warms up. Everytime I have turned on the car, I let it idle till the car idles just slightly below 1K RPM, and then before I turn it off, I always wait till the temp gauge is basically in the middle (sometimes revving it slightly). My shortest trip, however, has been a few miles so it hasn't been a problem. If you just wanted to move your car from one spot to the next, you would have this issue and need to force yourself to check the temp gauge. I generally have cold starts twice a day (morning and evening commute).

graphicguy · October 2003

How many miles were on your RX8 when you took delivery?

bjversani · October 2003

My car only had 9 miles on it. As far as the car not starting: The dealership stated that the car needs to reach temperature before it is shut off like you stated however the car stalled on it's own within 15 seconds. Mazda is saying this is an owner problem. The plugs will need to be replaced at $50 each x4 plus the labor which will be huge because they are not easy to get at. Now I am pissed but love the car....kind of like marriage....sex is good.....but you have to deal with the rest! Well enough Drama today! Oh....and the air bag light comes on occasionally....that's just what I need an airbag deploying at 160 mph while I'm jammin to some tunes!

graphicguy · October 2003

Something doesn't sound right. You bought a brand new RX8 well under invoice when the cars a selling for at least $1,000+ over invoice and in most of the country at MSRP. And you are having some sort of stalling problem that is so bad that the plugs need to be replaced and your airbag light is coming on. Your dealer won't cover it under warranty because you turn it off too soon??????

None of this adds up.

There's absolutely nothing in the manual that states you have to idle the car before driving (in fact, it's the exact opposite...they SUGGEST to drive the car mildly immediately after start up until it warms up). The manual states absolutely nothing about idling it before shut down.

Either there's something you aren't telling us or the dealership you bought the car for under cost has pulled some sort of extremely shady deal by selling you something that wasn't represented correctly.

Who's your dealer?

bjversani · October 2003

I know what the manual what the manual is saying.

I'm just telling you what they are saying now because of a problem.
The dealership is in Sioux City, Iowa. This area is very conservative and not too many people have cars like this. It's usually buicks and chevrolet's.

I'm not pulling anyones leg here. By the way your flag is from a different country anyway.
I realize this is a first model year but by being a Japanese car manufacturer I thought the bugs would be out of it.

gee35coupe · October 2003

from the factory with the wrong software in the Engine Management computer. Caused a lot of problems with the first few cars off the boat.

rx8_is_great · October 2003

It actually does state to let the car idle at 3,000 RPMs if you're just moving it. (i.e., you're washing your car and need to pull it out of the garage, etc) Have to find exactly where I read that, but know I did...Almost reminds me of the nuisance of having a turbo for an engine where you to let it idle down after running it.

Also, the deal he received isn't the only one received. I paid $31,300 out the door for my MT, Red Vel, appearance package, spare tire kit, nav system...loaded. MSRP of $34,865 to be exact...(knock on wood, no major problems reported)

However, the car doesn't misfire and turn off as my thread over in problems/solutions seemed to turn into...it actually just sounds like it's missing or rather the sound you'd get with an exhaust leak...

graphicguy · October 2003

Sorry, but I don't know of any dealer willing to sell an RX8 below invoice.....anywhere in the country and that's what bjversani said his dealer did. It just doesn't add up.

Regarding the stalling, he said his dealer wouldn't fix it at no charge under warranty. IF it is under warranty, and his dealer won't replace the computer causing the stalling (if that is indeed the cause), then there's something seriously wrong with the dealer...even if it's in an area where there aren't many RX8s. They have to have qualified techs in order to be a dealer.

There is absolutely no mention in the manual about any warm up or cool down procedures except for the following (taken right out of the manual):

"In exteremely cold weather, below 0 degrees, or after the vehicle has stood idle several days, let the engine warm up without operating the accelerator."

That's it.

I still think there's either some FUD going on or some significant facts missing here. I know you said your dealer's in Siuox City, but what's the name of the dealership?

carliker · October 2003

I believe rx8_is_great that the idle instructions might be in the manual but it sounds crazy to me. I've never had a car that required that for any kind of move. Like what graphic said, it would be the opposite...such as allowing a vehicle to warm up if the engine is cold. That dealership bjversani bought his vehicle from is full of it. I don't know how long it was between the time bj told them there was a problem and they gave him that reason. It sounds suspcious that they knew so quickly. I doubt that kind of flooding happens a lot.

As for the deals or discounts, that one dealer that leaves posts on here (audia8) says that in the Northeast (or places that will see a winter), RX-8s had to be discounted to the amount RX8_is_great is claiming. In states like Florida, audia8 mentioned they are still selling at MSRP (but not above it). He talked of sending vehicles down there since it's more popular around this season.

audia8q · October 2003

Since they are selling below invoice I was thinking about calling them today to find out the "scoop"....I would buy several truckloads for under invoice....for some reason i think I will get a different story.

dtran2149 · October 2003

Once again, isn't the key issue to not turn off the car until the car is properly warmed up as it may cause flooding/stalling? So if unless your trip is 2 seconds, you will likely have the car warmed up to normal operating temperature by the time you turn it off. As to the start-up, my own "babying" approach to the car so far has been to wait 5-10 seconds after turning it on and then not shifting over 3500 rpm till the temp gauge is 1/2 way between cold and mid. I don't rev past 6000 rpm till the normal operating temp (mid level) is reached.

I agree that if bjversani took delivery of the car at 9 miles, the price seems low and the problem sounds questionable.

carliker · October 2003

What is the scoop? Was my post accurate of what you mentioned in an earlier post concerning what the RX-8s were selling for? I thought that's what I read.

graphicguy · October 2003

We could go into business for ourselves....buy RX8s under invoice and resell them for a quick profit.....;-).

carliker...I've been through the manual so much, I've practically got it memorized. The problems mentioned and procedures suggested don't have any factual basis regarding the stalling described. I have never heard of any legitimate dealer turning down warranty service for any car as long as there was no modifications or abuse that would affect the warranty.

audia8q · October 2003

I never said anything about the car selling below invoice...

audia8q · October 2003

yeah, we could make the loses with volume, haha....I seem to remember a zillion dot.com companies that used that brilliant business model...

Like you, I'm not buying the below invoice thing at all....

qbrozen · October 2003

eh, he just forgot to mention the $1k special rust protection, $500 floormats, and $300 wheel locks that were all "already on the car therefore you HAVE to buy them" add-ons.

bjversani · October 2003

If you look under Nada, you can find any true invoice of any car. The price that I stated is with the items stated.
The dealership that is fixing the problem is in DesMoines and I don't think they are real willing to do warranty work for a car that was not purchased there.
Mazda has ok'd the work under warranty to replace the plugs but stated this would be the only time. My problem was that the car stalled on it's own in 15 sec. Then it would not refire at all...causing the flooding immediately.
I was searching for an answer from true RX8 owners on the problem and possible future problems.
I'm guessing that if you stall the car right away after start-up......good luck with trying to get it restarted. The area that I live in has harsh winters, my guess is the dealership is trying to move the cars. They are not selling very well here.
Now that I think about it, the dealer did state that the price was only good on this car only and not the silver one that was exactly like it.

graphicguy · October 2003

I'm not doubting that you are able to find invoice prices for the RX8 posted on the net. There are plenty of internet sites to find that info. What I'm contesting is what you paid. I can't find any Mazda dealer selling any RX8, in any part of the country, anywhere near invoice, let alone below invoice, as you state.

If you tell me your dealer way overallowed $$$ on your trade-in and/or you bought the "dealer add-on extras" as gbrozen pointed out, then that may be understandable.

I still can't see why an authorized Mazda dealer would tell you they will fix it once under warranty, but never again, for what you describe as a "flooding" problem and your airbag light coming on.

I searched for Mazda dealers in Des Moines. Mazda has some listed for Waterloo and Urbandale, but none for Des Moines. What's the dealer's name?

carliker · October 2003

I never said anything about you stating RX-8s going under invoice. I've never heard of a car being sold under invoice unless it's at some barnyard sale for leftover cars. Even the most basic new cars won't go for that. I was referring to the post that you said the RX-8s needed to be discounted in your area around this time. This is what you posted Oct. 24th:

"Here in the northeast the car is slow...The northeast has always been a seasonal sports car market and it happens every year.....but at our mazda store in Florida they are selling everyone they can get at full MSRP. I have a bigger allocation then they do and I actually shipped them some cars last week.....I will discount instock RX-8's, alot, until the spring when the market will be strong. The mazdaspeed's and Miata's are the same way....firesale prices during the fall/winter and much higher prices during the spring and summer."

This is what I meant.

graphicguy · October 2003

In general, I don't think many cars are flying off the lot right now. People are thinking about money for the holidays. I could be wrong, though. audia8q...is it generally slow right now?

Even with the huge rebates that GM is throwing out there, I'm not certain any of their cars are moving. They've evn got rebates on Corvettes. That's the first time I've heard of that.

I recently bought a used Civic to use as a 2nd car (you really didn't think I was going to drive the RX8 in the snow, did you?). The Honda dealer I bought it from said he would sell any new car on their lot for $300 over invoice, including Odys and Pilots (wouldn't do $300 over invoice on S2000s, but would discount them).

I think he much preferred me buying the used Civic, though.

bjversani · October 2003

First of all do you really think that the invoices that dealerships show you is accurate. I have a friend that worked for a car dealer and he said they are not.
I have no explanation why they accepted my offer on the car. The dealership where the car is being fixed is in Urbandale which is a suburb of DesMoines--sorry. I think the flooding issue will be a big problem in the future on these Mazda RX8's. I dare you to shut yours off after 15 seconds!!! It won't restart.
The true invoice on a loaded RX8 is somewhere around $28,500(not including navigation) This my friends is a true story. Right now in the cities there is a demand on these vehicles causing people to pay MSRP.
I'm not trying to make enemies here....just stating my experiences.

tmundar · October 2003

The RX-8 received an honorable mention in the Most Significant Vehicle category for the 2004 Edmunds' Editors Most Wanted.

The vehicle that won was the Nissan Titan. Wow, a Japanese full-sized pickup truck. How incredible (Sarcasm just doesn't translate well to text).

The RX-8 designs a new rotary engine and places it in a four-passenger sports car, but that is less significant than a Japanese full-size pickup truck? I wouldn't mind if the Cadillac XLR had won because at least it is interesting. The Japanese could have entered the full-size pickup market any time they wanted. I guess that Edmunds' editors and I have a different opinion on what is significant.

Note: I harbor an unfair bias against pickup trucks, so feel free to ignore my comments. :P

Tom

qbrozen · October 2003

I couldn't agree more. Especially since the Tundra existed before the Titan (v8, full-size, little known japanese manufacturer by the name of Toyota .... ringing any bells Edmunds?).

graphicguy · October 2003

bjversani...you should make a trip over to the Smart Shopper forum here at Edmunds. You'd get a real education. I've probably bought 20 cars for myself and family over the years. If you only look at the "purchase price" of any car, then you've done yourself a disservice. Trade-in allowances, fees, financing rates, extended warranties (if any), etc go into the total deal.

For example, I don't pretend to know how much it costs the dealership to pay their sales and administration staff. Nor, do I know what the cost of the property or the building they operate from, nor the dealer's payments to the banks to finance their inventory. I don't know how much their electric bill is, nor the cost of all those computers, desks, chairs, etc they use at the dealership.

Don't forget, the dealer has to make money to stay afloat. So, they made money somewhere.

Point being, there are many ways to structure a deal that the dealership can and will make money on, as mentioned above.

The RX8 is a significant new car from Mazda and from what I can ascertain, one that is selling well in the market. The dealer will not sell it below invoice knowing they can get more for it from the next customer. Maybe if you were buying a new purple, stripped Taurus that's been sitting on the lot for 3 months you may be able to get one below invoice. Not the RX8, though. There is just no incentive for the dealer to do that.

If you say you bought an RX8 below invoice, my guess would be the dealer under allowed for your trade, financed you higher than the going rate, made money on dealer installed options, charged you $500 for some "Super Shine" wax, etc to make up for the lack of money they made on the straight sale of the car.

Your purchase dealer and/or your servicing dealer sound "shady" in giving you grief to cover some warranty work. Plus, your selling dealer sounds like they did some "hide the money" in the ways stated above if you indeed bought it below invoice. Either way, they sound real shady. I won't deal with dealers that do business that way.

Personally, I've started my car many times and shut it off immediately when moving it around while washing it, moving it in and out of my garage/driveway, etc. I've never had any issues with stalling or flooding.

carliker · October 2003

tmundar - the Nissan Titan getting the nod baffles me too. I could see possibly the SUV Nissan Pathfinder Armada achieving the recognition. That SUV is full size and can reach 60 in 7.0 seconds according to Edmunds. Possibly, the Titan is quicker than the SUV while providing loading capacity. Otherwise, I have no idea why they picked a truck.

graphic - I turned on my RX-8 several times to move it from one spot to another in a matter of seconds, there was never any problems. Since it's not good leaving a car idle and running, there would be times when I'd go through drive-thrus and just turn the car off. I would turn it right back on within seconds and it ran just as well everytime. Sometimes, people want company when experiencing car mishaps.

serrano · October 2003

Folks - I suspect that Mazda is warning folks not to start and stop the car when cold because gasoline will coat the cold rotor housing and prevent a good seal on the rotor housing by the apex seals of the rotor. Previous versions of the RX-7 had a problem with a similar issue. When the car was turned off (even hot) and had slightly leaky fuel injectors, the leak down would put enough gas in the rotor housings to flood the engine/plugs or prevent good engine compression. With a hot engine, the fuel will quickly evaporate so it's not as much of a problem.

That's my theory anyway.

Tom

graphicguy · October 2003

I think the RENESIS, while a rotary, is a different character than the older rotaries in the RX7.

carliker....I don't mind helping other people with their cars or even commiserating when they have problems. I just believe this stalling, airbag light, lack of dealer support scenario leaves a lot of key details out of the discussion.

Any authorized MAzda dealer is required to do warranty work on in warranty Mazda cars regardless of where it was purchased. For a dealer to give someone grief about warranty work, in addition to there being a problem with some obscure procedure where the cars is stalling coupled with a 'questionable' deal to begin with, makes me highly suspicious.

There's way too much FUD being bantered about regarding the car in many different places.

I'm just trying to help getting to the bottom of the issues....trying to find out the dealer's name (which I've been unsuccessful at so far) since I have a friend that lives in the Sioux City area who could offer more insight to the dealer's practices.

gee35coupe · October 2003

It would flood under certain hot start conditions. Drove me crazy.

carliker · October 2003

My experiences with the RX-8 only took place during warmer summer days. I didn't have the chance to see what it would do being turned on/off quickly during colder weather like we've been having the last few weeks across the country.

carliker · October 2003

The following appeared on the autoweek.com webpage today:

H-powered RX-8

At the Tokyo motor show, Mazda debuted its latest take on a hydrogen future with the Hydrogen Renesis rotary in an RX-8 that can run on either gasoline or hydrogen, making it an ideal transitional vehicle for a future where hydrogen and gasoline both serve our vehicles. Rotary engines work well with hydrogen fuel because the fuel-injection area of the engine is cooler than in a piston engine. Mazda first showed a hydrogen-powered rotary in 1991, the H-RX.

Well, wonderful gas mileage is on its way!

dtran2149 · October 2003

Graphic - See post #46 by audia8q in Mazda RX-8 Problems/Solutions. He appears to agree on the turn off rule if the engine has not properly warmed up. While you have not had any problems related to this, I personally am not taking chances until there is definitive proof that you can turn on and then turn off a cold engine without increasing your chances of stalling/flooding.

graphicguy · October 2003

Maybe there is some stalling issue with this particular car.

I've done the start/brief run/shut down procedure numerous times with no problems. I think there must be a setting that must be wrong for stalling to occur. There's no reason a dealer shouldn't address this under warranty.

rorr · October 2003

Did you happen to catch the power output of the Renesis when running on hydrogen?

Hint: the wonderful gas mileage comes at a fairly substantial cost to the performance....

serrano · October 2003

Had the same hot start problem with my '88 RX-7 Turbo. Once the injectors leaked down a little, the sucker would be hard to start.

r2s2 · October 2003

" . . .obscure procedure where the cars is stalling coupled with a 'questionable' deal to begin with, makes me highly suspicious."

Now you're getting it, graphicguy. There are people (or perhaps one person with more than one screen name) who are here solely to discredit Mazda -- and perhaps don't even own an RX-8. Who knows why. It was (is?) like this over on the Mazda6 board and on a couple of other web sites. The complaints have no consistency or logic or ring of truth to them.

This isn't to say that these remarkable cars -- brand new with barely tested-in-the-real-world technology and engineering -- don't and won't have some problems. Or that there are no problems at all with dealers and service departments. But Methinks one or two natterers here do protest too much about their car/dealer/ownership experience to be believed.

It's as if they have automotive Munchausen's Syndrome, trying to suck the enjoyment of these wonderful cars out of our very souls because they have somehow been, or imagine themselves to have been, wronged by Mazda. If they're miserable, then the rest of us should be too.

habitat1 · October 2003

Several posts ago you mentioned that your Honda dealer will sell a Pilot at $300 over invoice. Please post the dealer name and contact. We are interested in a Pilot but the Honda dealer I bought my S2000 from will only go to $1,000 +/- under MSRP. Most other dealers in this area won't go below $500 under MSRP for either a Pilot or an Odyssey. I could get a better deal on an S2000.

Thanks.

carliker · October 2003

Rorr - the H-powered RX-8 article didn't say anything about the performance the car would have. There are some that care more about wonderful gas mileage than performance. I don't know how much of a drop off the performance of the vehicle would take.

r2s2 - there are going to be people who criticize or say negative things about the RX-8. That's what the forum is here for and you can obviously state your opinion too. This is the proper place for some frustrated/disappointed owners to come and talk of their negative experiences with the car/dealerships. If you feel so strong about how great the RX-8 is, you shouldn't feel offended and take what they say so harshly. Defend your position and state the positives you've had. I had a negative experience with my Mazda dealership (and had some issues with the RX-8) and some poster said that I was bashing Mazda. The RX-8 is a fun car but this would be a boring forum is everyone agreed with each other.

mazdafun · October 2003

That's hydrogen, not the fake Hummer.

Hydrogen, being less energy-dense than gasoline, will yield less power and lower mileage. This goes for ethanol-gasoline mixtures too.

Its advantage is very clean emissions (water), and a theoretically renewable energy source (you can break the water back into hydrogen and oxygen, but you need energy to do that...where it comes from will determine just how clean this energy source is).

graphicguy · October 2003

Although things have settled a bit with the RX8 regarding misinformation, there is still a lot of FUD being thrown out there about the RX8. I've never seen so much about one car before. A lot of it stems from the fact that very few know much about the RENESIS and have legitimate questions.

From what I've seen, others will do their best to spread "untruths" about the cars, how they purchased, how it performs, how it's built, etc because they have something different and would like the RX8 in their driveway. Some have never even driven one and try to draw conclusions based on what they read in forums like Edmunds and elsewhere.

For example, I thought the restatement of the HP issue was minor. Mazda stepped up and made very strong offers to those who initially bought the cars. However, it turned into a firestorm of FUD...even for those who had never driven the car.

I don't mind any healthy debate about any car. Just make sure the facts are straight.

People then get frustrated who are really interested in the RX8, go to their dealer and find out that there are no rebates, no "back of invoice" deals to be had. And then use what someone posted on the net as proof that somehow they're getting screwed by either Mazda or the Mazda dealer. The deal in Iowa where the dealer gave someone grief over warranty work just adds fuel to this fire. Particularly given that the "facts" are so hard to ascertain.

I've personally driven the 6. In my estimation, it's a world class sports sedan and quite handsome. Try telling that to someone who is driving a competing model, though.

habitat....I bought the used Civic several weeks ago. The Honda dealer had some new '03s that they were trying to clear out. I don't know if they are still "making deals" on the Pilot and Ody, but the dealership is the SUPERIOR group (Superior Honda, specifically). Derrek was the guy's first name, but I can't recall his last name. He said he worked for all the Superior dealerships (Acura, Hyundai, Chevy, Honda). I don't really know what he meant by "working for all the dealerships", but I got involved with him after the original sales person had left the dealership. He was sitting in the "big office" so I'll assume he carried some weight.

If interested and you know the area, I was looking for a used/cheap/decent running Toyota, Honda, Mazda. Had very little luck with private owners (most of the private sales thought they should get OVER KBB/Edmunds/NADA used value for their cars. It's amazing to me what kind of money these cars demand on the used market. Went to all the Honda/Toyota dealerships locally. I found the PERFORMANCE GROUP to be a bit shady, so I never came to a deal with them, although they had a good selection of used Hondas and Toyotas. That left the WYLER GRUOP and Superior. Wyler didn't have anything in my price range. I did like the people at Superior, however...straight shooters and no BS.

qbrozen · October 2003

mileage is tough to compare given it wouldn't be rated "per gallon." But, yes, typically you will get less miles per tank, mostly attributed to the volume of H2 that can be stored in a car.

And, also yes, the power is typically lower if you use the same setup for gas as you do the hydrogen. But changing the setup for purely hydrogen by raising compression ratio and/or forcing in more fuel/air can give results more similar to gas.

(i'm giving all this purely based on memory from research I did on the subject over a decade ago, so its open to debate, but I believe this is accurate.)

the_big_h · October 2003

makes 108hp, and 207hp when in gasoline mode

rorr · October 2003

at 108 hp (7200rpm) and 89 ft/lbs torque (at 5000rpm). Yuck.

Which is why I made the observation that the increased mileage/lower emmissions would occur at fairly substantial cost to performance, at least in this application.

mikelg2 · October 2003

108hp and 89lb.-ft. torque? Well, at least you have an excuse to redline at every shift.

What kind of performance numbers would that bring up? 0-60 in 15-20 seconds?

Is performance reduced because it can handle gasoline applications as well? After all, if they could do twice the power output, then essentially you've got the performance output for the Rx-8 Auto, which would be great.

Also, there's a few hydrogen stations in California that just use solarpower to create H2 gas at the pump.

carliker · October 2003

graphic - The "FUD" expression is being used too much (smiles)! The RX-8 is a nice, innovative vehicle. I'm glad to see people stick up for their ride. However, this is a mass produced sports car -- let's keep it in perspective. You make it sound like a Porsche GT3 sometimes. As for the people you find trashing the car (and haven't even driven it), I haven't really observed it in these posts recently. Some have described isolated incidents at dealerships which shouldn't be taken personally. That Iowa situation just seems messed up. I wouldn't put much thought into cases like that.

rorr - Less gas mileage and less performance? Well, the amount of fuel it will need will be a plus at least. I'm sure most people will sacrifice the fun of the regular RX-8 for the clean emissions of the hydrogen one - spreading the sarcasm thick here.

Mazda RX-8

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