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Mazda RX-8

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Comments

  • pathstar1pathstar1 Member Posts: 1,015
    The rotor spins at 1/3 the eccentric shaft speed. So for every rotation of the eccentric shaft you have two chambers fired for a two rotor engine. It's the same as a four cylinder four stroke piston engine. A three rotor is the same as a six cylinder engine. BTW trispec, that's what you should tell the pollution guys. It's equivalent to a four cylinder four stoke. If they are able to pick off a spark plug signal, they would see the RPM match.

    As far as displacement, each rotor face displaces 654 cc. Times two gives just over 1300 cc. This is really unfair though. The Euopean racing authorities call it a 2600 cc engine, probably based on full displacement of piston engines occuring over two crankshaft rotations - equivalency needed for racing fairness. Again, I differ from the norm., I think it's really half way between the two, or about 1950 cc. The problem is caused by the rotary being a 1/3 ratio whereas a four stroke piston engine is 1/2 ratio. If you count all rotor faces (three eccentric shaft rotations) it is 3900 cc. But that's just getting silly. ;)

    The rotary is not "more efficient" than a piston engine. It's hard to compare the two, but the telling way is fuel efficiency. I challenge you to beat a piston engine. Best vs best, the piston engine will win. Even matching HP and/or weight. The rotary IS smoother. It used to be able to rev. higher, but no longer. Now we have streetable Hondas reving just as high as the renesis. I don't think a racing rotary will be capable of 19,000 RPM like F1 engines for quite a while.
  • trispectrispec Member Posts: 305
    I guess what has captured me is the unique place in history that the Rotory Engine holds. Against colossal odds, a unique design, of amazingly beautiful simplicity, keeps popping back onto the scene in an industry which is so brutally competitive, it's a wonder that human beings can survive the design and production process of any cylinder combustion engine.

    Come on folks, a single person use to be able to build an engine. A NASCAR pit crew guy I use to know, once described to me the process, of tearing down an engine and re-building it for a race. By comparison, a rotory engine is no more complex than a model airplane engine. Well not quite, but the picture is there.

    I high rev it through the streets of Boston on a fairly complex daily commute. I don't worry about over torquing through a turn. I don't worry about over revving the engine. And I do love the jet engine wirrr sound up shifting 1st to 2nd off a 6K RPM rev where a I paddle shift with no shift shock!!!!!! :) No piston eninge at any price, behaves like this. And I could reasonalbly rebuild it myself (well if pathstar helped).
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    So in reality, 654cc times three, times two(dual rotor) = 3924CC. This would be according to 4-stroke standards, where they take the maximum area times every cylinder, despite the fact that each cylinder isn't producing power all at once, either. The ratio isn't considered - just maximum displacement.

    Mazda's numbers are off, IMO - and make no sense, plus they hurt sales. A 3.9L rotary engine that put out 210+HP and got ~20mpg, that's not so unreasonable in people's minds. Even if they figure 2/3 of 3.9L, to be fair(since the rotary has less compression/chance in displacement per face when it cycles), it would be 2616cc. A 2.6L 210Hp engine with 20mpg - again, not too far off.

    That said, rotary engines are more efficient than 4-stroke, but not as efficient as 2-stroke. Hence, why I like to call the three-stroke engines. :) Mazda, though, isn't really pushing the limits on this engine. With a turbo added, it would scream(or better yet a belt-driven supercharger) 300hp and suddenly its smoking a 350Z. :)
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    A 3.9L rotary engine that put out 210+HP and got ~20mpg, that's not so unreasonable in people's minds.

    I don't know about that...350Z has 3.5 liters, 300 hp, and 19/25 mpg.

    Rotary and 2-stroke are not more efficient in terms of fuel usage, they do produce a lot of power from a small engine.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Okay pathstar1, you've officially made my head hurt.

    When I see 9k rpm on the tach in a rotary, is that the eccentric shaft speed or the rotor rpm? (I'm thinking now that is the eccentric shaft speed so 9k rpm would actually be 'only' 3k rpm for the rotor itself).

    Okay, now I can see the relationship between a 2-rotor and a 4-cylinder; yeah, that's the best analogy.

    I think that what's wiggin' me out is the difference in the rotational speed between the rotor and the eccentric shaft; I still can't wrap my mind around it. After your description, now for some reason I'm picturing a 3.9l 4-cylinder making it's peak 238 hp at 3000 rpm. You're right, that's just getting silly. Because THAT analogy would indicate a mountain of torque. And we KNOW we're not getting that out of a Renesis.

    Personally, I think the rotary's biggest advantage is packaging efficiency. It's physical size (dispite just HOW one goes about measuring displacement vs. a piston engine) really frees up the engineer to place the powertrain low and back in the chassis. Personally, I don't give a rip about 'hp/displacement' arguments or whether it drinks fuel like a 2.6l (or 3.9l).

    I've always liked the idea of using the drivetrain out of a wrecked RX-8 for a really quick Lotus 7 knockoff.....
  • pathstar1pathstar1 Member Posts: 1,015
    Correct, indicated RPM is eccentric shaft speed. Rotors are turning at 1/3 that. Just visualize the "sun/planet" gears - the sun gear on the inside of the rotor, and the planet gear on the - housing, actually. It's called a "stationary gear", and it is - it's bolted to the housing. That's where the 1/3 ratio is from.

    The rotary Lotus has been done. I suspect you could even buy one (or a kit anyway). Not sure you could register it though. There is even a very active rotary aircraft group.

    The rotary is best suited for racing. Reason is it's so easy to rebuild and so tolerant of overreving. It's difficult to get one to work "on the street" and meet pollution requirements. Based on Mazda's travails with the RX-8. Just look at all the extra "stuff" jammed into your engine compartment to get the engine to meet the requirements. Part of the reason the 3rd gen RX-7 was pulled from the market (other than Japan) was the pollution requirements.
  • trispectrispec Member Posts: 305
    Most streets and highways in New England are in awful condition. Even when a road is resurfaced or re-built, often paving quality is rough, bumpy, and badly joined to existing surfaces and curb siding. Add to these conditions, lots of cold wet spray from rain and slushy snow, and you got a nightmare commute situation through out the various metro areas across seven states.

    The RX-8's more forgiving suspension and low torque Renesis, is a huge advantage. Adding snow tires or all seasons, round out the package. So, unless there's 4 or more inch's of fresh snow, the RX-8 is going to go just fine.

    Any other sports car or even near sports car, Z's cars, 'Vetts, 'Stang, etc just turn into scary torque bouncers and spinners. Even near exotic cars get in trouble. An M6 paired up with me on a particular bad road construction that involve train tracks running down a street. The torque from his 390HP V8 was loosing it every time he hit a rail.

    I've driven lots of cars in my lifetime. Nothing even comes close to the pure joy of my RX-8 with it's very practical little features and stunning all around balance and performance for a relatively low price.
  • trispectrispec Member Posts: 305
    Wouldn't a Renesis bring the price of this street ready F1 racer down to an even more reasonable level? Especially if the $13K transmission is replaced with the standard Mazda 6 sp auto with paddle shifters. Probably wouldn't go 205MPH, but the package might still provide enough well over 100MPH thrill for any track.

    How about the mind blowing image of the Caparo T1's aerodynamic down force enabling travel upside down in tube tunnels at 150MPH. Ala MIB :shades:
  • surfboy2001surfboy2001 Member Posts: 6
    I read in the Mazda 3 forum that Mazda is releasing a product that will let you connect your ipod to the factory stereo (and keep the use of the steering wheel audio controls).

    Will this product be compatible with 07 RX8's??
  • mundo00354mundo00354 Member Posts: 5
    I'm looking for a car that'll last me at least 5+ years. is the rx8 a car i should be looking at, or should i go towards the mazdaspeed6?
  • cristianfuentecristianfuente Member Posts: 3
    this is an extension to post #3422 does this car last would it get hard losing the 50,000mi. warranty?

    Also i previously own a scion tc 2.0 series 06 bought brand new 0 miles now it has 6k is it worth trading it with a Mazda rx-8 with 37k miles but is in mint condition with Grand Touring Package from 04?
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    No. 1994 had problems, being the first year. Stalling, flooding, and other gremlins.

    By 1996, though, they had fixed most of it and most importantly, the automatic transmission was reworked to actually be decent performance-wise.
    (or just get a 2005/2006 one with stickshift)

    Of course, a new one is $25,871 at Cars Direct - manual transmisson, the bigger wheels, and of course, the performance package(stability and traction control, foglights, and a couple of other goodies). For 2-3K more than a used 2006, it's worth it, IMO. This is definately like a sportbike. You want to break it in and take careful care of it from day one as while it's a fantastic car, it's also very easy to abuse. Kind of like a M3 - you KNOW people are going to hammer it 95% of the time, so new vs used takes on this added factor.

    But that Tc - sell it private party. You'll at least only lose a couple of thousand dollars. The deal will ream you(it's very desireable like a Mini almost)
  • cristianfuentecristianfuente Member Posts: 3
    alright what im gettin out of the message is that its a bad deal to trade my tc for the rx-8 which the rx-8 has the 6speed manual transmission wit GT package thing is if the tc two years from would to be sold it would def not be the 19,000 dollar car i payed for but the rx-8 that i will trade for was 32k dollars when it was first purchased new so any opinion on this
  • trispectrispec Member Posts: 305
    Hi folks

    The recall testing and the latest PCM re flashing were done on my 2005 RX-8 AT.

    Few things to say.

    1) The popcorn/rattle can still be heard, but not nearly as loud nor as often.

    2) Gas millage is better as measured by the gross eye balling of the gas needle and actual miles. Maybe 10% better?

    3) Morning cold starts are much quicker firing and smoother.
  • duke15duke15 Member Posts: 161
    Does anyone have a recommendation about Mazda Dealer service departments in Northern Virginia - either by dealer or even better by service manager? I am currently using the Red Team for Brown's Mazda (where I bought my car) and every time they have had it they 1. Haven't fixed the problem and 2. Took longer than they said it would (my recall work, scheduled almost 2 weeks in advance, took over 4 days for the flash, wash and gas). I've been in there roughly every 800 miles for my CEL, always with the same solution (reflash - "this time it will work" in their best Bullwinkle voice). I need to go back for the CEL again, plus it seems the colder it gets and the more miles I have on it (currently 3200), the more vibration I get - especially idling in drive with my foot on the brake.

    I live an equal distance to Rosenthal, and I am considering going there for service, so any opinions on them or good service managers I can ask for would be appreciated. Or any information from anyone that got their CEL problem fixed or engine mounts replaced in the NoVA area.
  • mdw1000mdw1000 Member Posts: 171
    I'm not from that area, but I know Rosenthal has a good reputation on rx8club.com. They sell parts on there, plus their website lists all the recalls and TSBs for the 8. In fact, here is the link:

    http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/bulletins_index.html
  • rx8_canuckrx8_canuck Member Posts: 5
    Hey,

    I bought an RX-8 in Aug/03, and was offered the buyback program for the wrongly advertised horsepower when it got launch. I decided to keep the car and love it. Do any of you have the letter of offer for the 4 year service program plus the $500 cheque? I have lost the letter and my dealer in Vancouver and telling me that the service program is only 3 years... anyone know where i can get more info or if they still have their letter?

    Much appreciated.

    RX-8 Canuck
  • robbfrobbf Member Posts: 4
    I actually bought my 05 RX8 in Feb 06 at Brown's in Alexandria, VA and they have been fine during my two service visits there to-date, including the recalls.

    Were you going to Brown's in Fairfax or Alexandria? Sounds like you should try Rosenthal - I have ordered parts from them.
  • duke15duke15 Member Posts: 161
    Thanks mdw and robbf. I ended up taking my car to Rosenthal in Arlington. I heard similar tail of woe from their Tyson's Corner location so I drive a little further. They seem to have fixed my CEL problem. They replaced a sensor and the gas cap. They also replaced my motor mounts which fixed the vibration problem. I asked them to look at an intermitant brake squeal, and they tried to fix it by changing out the rear pads. However, now that it is cold outside, my brakes squeal all of the time worse than any car I have ever owned, so I have to out her back in the shop again. Minus that, the Rosenthal experience went very well, so I am willing to try and work with them on that. They treated me well, and only took one morning to do all of the work.
  • mdw1000mdw1000 Member Posts: 171
    Duke,

    Yeah, now that it is cold out I've got the squealing brakes again as well. When I first got it they squealed all the time. After the fix they only seem to squeal when its cold out.
  • duke15duke15 Member Posts: 161
    Isn't there anyway to stop that? It is driving me nuts - they squeal every time when it is cold out
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    High performance brake pads make noise. There is anti-squeal compound that you can apply to the back of the pads, but it's not 100% effective, and it doesn't last.

    Or you could trade in your RX-8 for a Buick... ;)
  • rx8ownerrx8owner Member Posts: 2
    Yesterday, I had an electrical fire in my 2004 Mazda RX8. Needless to say, the car burned to the ground. I was wondering if anyone knew anything about electrical malfunctions in the RX8? Before anyone jumps on my case (as they did in RX8 forum), I am not a smoker, I didn't leave my car running, and I parked on ice (not a combustible object). I simply drove my car home, and 30 minutes later, the car was on fire! The fire dept said it was most likely caused from an electrical fire, but an investigation is pending. No foul play occurred. I was told that the user pathfinder had good advice! Thanks in advance.
  • rx8ownerrx8owner Member Posts: 2
    I meant Pathstar!
  • doctorrdoctorr Member Posts: 1
    I've been fairly closely involved with the RX-8 since 2003, and I have never heard of any kind of electrical fires, in fact the power system seems to be one of the cars strong points.
    Electrical problems would probably be caused by badly installed sound equipment, or poorly repaired wiring.
    .
    .
    doc
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Sorry to hear about that. OTOH, in new engines, it's usually caused by fuel or oil leaks from failing gaskets or hoses. It could have happened while you were driving, so at least everyone is fine.

    Plus, your insurance will throw in a chunk of money and NOT increase your rates as it's covered under comprehensive. Maybe get a used 2006 as a replacement? ;)
  • pathstar1pathstar1 Member Posts: 1,015
    I'm not sure what I can add, other than it may not have been electrical. Did your car have all the recalls done? Some of them were to prevent fires and involved heat shields. I haven't seen any recalls related to electrical fires, but the ones for heat shields were fire related.

    When driving the air rushing by the underside keeps an overheated part cooled enough the part of it that has started burning can't spread. When you stop the smoldering part can build up heat in the surrounding parts, eventually "bursting" into flame. The flame will then spread the fire.
  • powderhoundpowderhound Member Posts: 6
    I'm sorry to hear about your car. I was just researching the RX-8 and happened upon a TSB for cars built prior to 6/2005. It states that after the car is driven at "high rpm" and parked, the engine/ transmission/ exhaust can become hot enough to start a fire. Might want to check it out. Hope no one was hurt.
  • deaundeaun Member Posts: 6
    Amen, brother!

    Deaun
    :)
  • lhesslhess Member Posts: 379
    under the tsb? My car has been really slow to turn over since the weather turned cold and this morning, the battery pooped out - just dismal clicks when you turn the key.

    I've known for a while it was destined for a new battery, but since I don't have to rely on it everyday, thought I would see how long it would last. About 15 degrees here today and I hadn't started it in over a week.

    Anyway, anyone got the new battery? Can you tell a difference?
  • nergal_lvnergal_lv Member Posts: 17
    I have only had one incident with the battery not cranking on the first try, but it was 6 degs outside. Once it fired (second try) it was OK, otherwise no problems.
  • lhesslhess Member Posts: 379
    well, mine has been dying a slow death. Last week it was fairly cold and I decided to start it up and take a spin around the block just to warm him up and all, and it barely turned over. the cold weather paired with my short trips when I do start it, have probably done it in.

    I'm gonna call my dealer to see if they'll replace it. Heaven only knows when I'll get it there - Rex doesn't have snow shoes and we've got lots of snow with more coming down. It's really not crucial other than I don't like not being able to start it once in a while.
  • nergal_lvnergal_lv Member Posts: 17
    hey there,
    try these on REX: Cooper Zeon sports A/S. Just bought a set 2 wks ago and had 2-3" of snow come down tonight. Not a bad ride home after an all day snow, up and down hills in Rural Missouri. Was reluctant to buy Cooper tires, but these were a good deal, about $149 each, balanced and mounted. It was a HUGE difference from the summer tires. I hated to unload those, but wife was upset I kept taking her SUV when the snows hit. Will remount the summers later one (maybe, since these tires have been decent so far).
  • lhesslhess Member Posts: 379
    I've debated about getting some winter tires but my situation is ... I can walk to work (it's next door) and we have a jeep for work that if the weather is bad, just sits. It's dirty and it smells bad, but it's a ride!! Thanks for the info on the tires. Even if I was ready to buy, I would have no idea where to start.

    New problem with Rex. Got him jump started today (wouldn't start the first time), drove him around left him running for a little over an hour, shut it down, dead again. Isn't recharging.

    ALSO, the DSC is not working (or it's off) and I couldn't get it to turn back on?? I guess we're off to the dealer when the weather looks better - snow and ice forecasted for tomorrow!!
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Sound like a possible problem in the alternator or wiring harness if it's dead so soon.
  • bullwinkle fanbullwinkle fan Member Posts: 19
    Driver's side sun visor just broke last night, Is there a way to fix or will Mazda warranty ? Also notice a new vibration and loud engine noise when stoped . Almost sounds like idle too low.( 750 rpm ) at idle. 2004 w/ auto and 25k.
  • mdw1000mdw1000 Member Posts: 171
    I think it is something Mazda will fix under warranty (the sunvisor). From what I understand it is pretty common. I don't have any info on your other problem.
  • trispectrispec Member Posts: 305
    So this winter is a bit different. Boston's normal snow fall average is around 50" by now, but this year we're banging at 4".

    But winter rain and ice are still with us. Boston's horrible cow path road beds, all chipped and broken by the constant freeze/thaw weather, results in invisible ice patches. Constantly watching out for these frozen road hazards use to cause me stress headaches. This winter, I've finally trained myself to trust the built-in intelligence of the RX-8 AT's stability control to handle it. So I can just enjoy the ride.
  • secondcitysecondcity Member Posts: 28
    A Recent car magazine (Car and Driver or Road and Track?) have mentioned there may be a redesign of the Rx8 in the next couple of years, possibly '09 or '10.

    I would consider another one despite the few quirks. Most owners would probably agree the handling is phenomenal and the car is fun to drive, but I would love to see a bit more low end torque + horsepower. Oh well, some guys can't have it all. My 2005 rx8 has ran almost perfect for a year and a half. Despite the annoying brake squeals and a few dashboard rattles, the car remains a pleasure to drive at 24,000 miles. The air conditioner has handled 104 degree heat in the summer and the heater has worked well in -9 degree cold, though it does take a lot longer to warm up in this extremely cold winter. The Blizzak snow tires are a must for me for the recent 8 inches of snow that covered our streets earlier this week. I have not gotten stuck. The Rx8 Stability control is awesome, but I had to shut it off a few times when I needed to accelerate and push through some deep snow drifts. I like the fact that we can turn the rx8's DSTC on and off. Some automakers, like my wife's '06 Lexus IS350, make it nearly impossible to shut the stability system off. It can bog down her car at times when you need full power.
    Bring on the spring.
  • trispectrispec Member Posts: 305
    I sure hope they don't screw with the RX-8's current four doors. The body design is classic as well. Some of the car show concept cars are just wacko super modern stuff that's about as practical as stiletto heels.

    Can't imagine how a rotary engine can get more low end torque without a turbo. But from all of PathStar's experience in turbo enhanced rotary engine disasters, I hope Mazda avoids that temptation.

    I don't mind the low-end torque issue though. It's just as much fun to let engine's wind up till the punch hits. My RX-8 AT tops out at 7000 with just 4 intake ports, but don't the RX-8 MTs have a really fantastic punch at 7000 to 8500 with all 6 intake ports sucking air?

    Besides, here in new england, wet slick roads are normal most of the years so huge low end torque just serves to get me in trouble.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    A possible solution might be to avoid the complicated turbo and just run a small supercharger on it. Turbos are nearly worthless at low RPMs and that's exactly what the engine lacks.

    Maybe a supercharger that cuts out/bypasses at 4000rpm? You'd get more low-end grunt, but once the engine was wound up, it'd throttle it back.
  • pathstar1pathstar1 Member Posts: 1,015
    Re torque the MT doesn't have a lot more than the auto (a little less at low RPMs actually). It just continues above 7500 RPM up to 9000. Thus the HP is higher (HP=torque X RPM). The extra ports are needed to get enough air at the higher RPMs (basically due to time restricted air flow - but of course it's always more complicated than that). In fact if you look at torque curves, the 4 port starts to loose torque around 6000 RPM. The 6 port uses the extra ports to compensate for this - it still looses some torque, but not as much as it would if it was restricted to the 4 port design.

    Now a number of years ago a turbo system was developed that worked well at low RPMs and wouldn't over-boost at higher RPMs (no mechanical control needed, which is the Achilles heal for the 3rd gen RX-7). With ceramic technology steadily advancing, we could end up with a ceramic turbo boosting to get the torque up in the rotary. -IF- the rotary survives expensive fuel/fuel economy wars.

    The problem with supercharges is they suck so much power from the engine. Turbochargers are -almost- "free" to run, recovering some energy from the exhaust to compress the intake air. I say "almost" because, not withstanding the large extra cost they add, they do add some exhaust restriction, which costs HP. This restriction does have some benefits, however. It helps low end torque, and it attenuates exhaust noise, allowing smaller lower restiction mufflers.

    It is possible a 9000 RPM torque converter will be developed, allowing the car to make full use of the 6 port in the auto equipped cars (which now have the 6 port engine).

    Mazda are working with H2 powered rotary engines, and could even go to hybrid units. They've built some wild "concept vehicles" in the last few years.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Of course, with this sort of application, you would only need a few PSI of boost and so you'd go with a belt-briven model with a fan-type clutch.
  • trailwazetrailwaze Member Posts: 1
    am on my 3rd sunvisor in about 2 years of ownership-fairly normal use-the dealer does not even blink an eye, he just replaces it. If you look closely, the wrap around/hollow portion of the hard plastic hits on an obstacle; it is almost designed to crack. My local dealer has been a real stand up guy-new battery (they put in a "bigger" one); also, after a series of strange but not alarming incidents-repeated CEL/check engine lights and concern about my engine mounts-on recent normal visit to change the oil, they came out to the service waiting room, handed us the keys to a free rental and, over a week including phone calls to Mazda USA and Japan, the dealer replaced the engine. This was with no real discussion-I got a very vague "extreme emissions problem"; all I know is, had it back for 3 months now, including sub freezing temps, runs like a race pony with no hesitation. The customer service has been tops, otherwise I'd really be spooked. Got to admit,been looking at Infiniti G35 2 doors, but, man oh man, I want to stay loyal to Mazda; for now I will.
  • tomatnavytomatnavy Member Posts: 27
    Has anybody had this problem [rattling noise on driver side panel] fixed with madza bulletin no:09-023/06, and still have the same problem? If yes, did you ever get it fixed?
  • csconncsconn Member Posts: 3
    I am in the process of determining if I should buy a leftover 06 Rx8. I could get a really good deal and the dealership is anxious to get rid of it.

    I have read through all the forums and most sounds negative which has me concerned. I took it for a test ride and loved it. My kids were thrilled with the ride.

    It concerns me with what I have been reading about flooding problems, engines failing because of 20W oil etc.

    Any opinions on what I should do? Please advise...
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    How many miles/year/price?

    With end of year incentives, you can get a 2007 base model for about $21-22K. IMO, it's like a motorcycle. You need to treat it exactly like, say, a Harley with carbs. Abuse isn't a good thing and it takes maintainence to own one that's simmilar to a bike.(needs to warm up, can't hammer it cold, need to blip the throttle when you shut it off, and check the oil every weekend). It's not an appliance-like Honda. But it's also the most speed and handling for the money - not too bad, really.

    I'd buy new if at all possible unless the price was really low.

    My money, though, has to go to the new Mini just because it will depreciate roughly $1000 a year or less.
  • csconncsconn Member Posts: 3
    The 2006 RX is brand new (40 miles), dealer leftover. It's a MT with touring package. Rebates add up to $4000 and the trade in price on my old car was excellent.

    Just not sure it's worth the risk I have been reading about. Not sure if I am just reading more the negative than the positive.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    If it's new old stock,it's a tough call. But remember - 4K is the rebates. The dealer should be selling it for close to invoice in addition.

    http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91107&acode=USB60MAC161B0&restor- - e=false
    Cars direct says about $23,700 including delivery.

    http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91107&acode=USB70MAC161A0&restor- - e=false
    Roughly $24,400 for the new one.(ignoring the Mazda financing "deal"). Now, true, the 2006 has a sunroof and stability control, but that's about the only difference between the 2006 Touring and the 2007 Sport(and adding in the stability control is a few hundred dollars.

    If you can wait, just get a 2007 in a few months when the 2008s come out and save a years worth of depreciation.
  • csconncsconn Member Posts: 3
    The dealer is letting it go at invoice.

    Thanks for the advice. It really helped.
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