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Lincoln Aviator

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Comments

  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I am contemplating my first SUV, as I now own a 2000 Sable and 2000 Intrepid...I actually changed my mind about SUVs after my friend bought a 2002 Explorer, and it rode so well, compared to the choppy ride of their former 1998 Explorer...the Aviator looks impressive, I am also impressed by many of the ones out there...I also would like to own a Jaguar XJ8L, but may just have to wait for some capital gains in the stock market for that one...:):):)

    Bob
  • porknbeansporknbeans Member Posts: 465
    Not to interrupt schulhof's request but, is the Aviator going to take sales away from the Mountaineer? On paper doesn't the Mountaineer have everything the Aviator has? Is Ford going to stop making the Mountaineer and replace it with the Aviator (only in the Lincoln brand)? Is the Aviator looked at as the next step up the progression ladder from the Mountaineer?

    Sorry, for the number of questions but it seems like a confusing introduction in Ford's product line. It's not my intention to bring the Aviator down, I just have questions regarding the product placement. If you don't want a vehicle as large as the Navi, but like the look, this is a great offering. I thought that the Mountaineer was meant to fill that need. Any input?
    Porknbeans

    Grand High Poobah
    The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
  • schulhof1schulhof1 Member Posts: 8
    I don't think Mountaineer gets the 300 hp V8, does it?

    Hopefully Aviator does not get the silly rear taillight treatment that the Mountaineer gets?

    The Aviator also has a different dash layout.

    IMO, a Lincoln offering of the Explorer is upscale to a Mercury version. Afterall the Lincoln nameplate currently associated with the LS and Navigator is upscale to the Mercury Sable/Cougar/Mountaineer offerings.

    I would imagine the Aviator would cannibalize some of the Mountaineer sales.
  • haironghairong Member Posts: 153
    porknbeans,

    Unique features

    Please see my post #47 in this thread, I listed some features unique to the Aviator that one could not get from the Mountaineer. Are they worth the extra money? IMHO, if it's around $3000, I'd say yes, over $5000? no.


    Aviator is the next step up from Mountaineer, but I don't think Ford will stop making the 'neer. It will grab some of the Explorer Limited and 'neer buyers, but not much. They target different demographic.


    One of the misconception about the Mercury brand is that Mercury is one step up from Ford. It is not. Lincoln is the next step, not Mercury. Mercury is a well optioned (loaded) Ford. Mercury has no stripped down vehicle, compared to Ford brandmates anyway. If you buy a lot of Ford vehicles, like the people here in SE MI do, you will know a Mercury is usually cheaper than a same optioned Ford, you get a (option) group discount of sort for buying a Mercury. Lincoln, on the other hand, is quite different. All Lincolns share platforms with Fords too, i.e. town car/CV/GM, Conti./Taurus/Sable, LS/T-Bird etc. but each has substantial differences. Lincoln SUVs, while more similar to Fords than their cars, also have different exterior/interior and more powerful engines to separate them from Ford offerings.

  • porknbeansporknbeans Member Posts: 465
    Thanks for the refresher. I've been lurking on this post since the start and didn't know if that post still stood. Honestly, I didn't check it against the spec sheet.

    I understand that the sheetmetal and interior layout differs which is why I worded my question like I did. "On paper" they both have a V8 (yes, they are different), seating for 7, AWD and relatively the same size. Based on this they look pretty similar which is why I begged the question regarding cross sales. You bring up a good points about the maintenance agreement, HID, power tailgate and navigation system. I should have probably asked my question more specifically. You have however answered it quite well with your explanation, so thanks.

    I think that the Aviator will be a big seller. I know of a good number of SUV buyers who want what the Navigator has but are afraid of it's size.
    Porknbeans

    Grand High Poobah
    The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
  • haironghairong Member Posts: 153
    I am cross-shopping the Aviator, MDX and Pilot.

    I want the premium brands' exclusivity, but I am also very value conscious. I understand I have to pay good money for those luxury badges, I am ok with it if good value comes with it. Taking the MDX as an example, selling at MSRP is bad enough, some people are/were paying $3000 more for one! What is the value in that! I am waiting for the MDX's price to come down.

    So for me, it doesn't have to be the best in class, it should be the best overall package. The Aviator, IF it has the Honda/Toyata quality, may well be the best in class. But, if it is priced too high, it won't be my #1 choice. It will be wait-and-see for me.

    BTW, I have mixed feelings about the Aviator being based on an Explorer platform. There's nothing wrong with that, especially when the new '02 Explorer is a very very good design. OTOH, I am concerned that it is built on the same line that builds the Explorer, to me this means they will have similar build quality, which is not very good to say the least. If I do buy the Aviator, it will be at year end. I will give Ford half a year to sort things out, fix problems that shouldn't even be there at first place.
  • navyairnavyair Member Posts: 202
    Shulhof-

    Going through the same thing you are RE choices. Haven't made up my mind to spend the $ for an Aviator, but it is a contender...for the name, if nothing else. (Yes, I'm a Navy flier, though approaching manditory retirement age). There IS an Isuzu mid-size...going to be the 03 "Ascender" which is a rebadged GMC Envoy XL which just came out this month. Haven't seen anything but the reviews which are great on the Envoy XL. The Isuzu web site has some info, but not pricing. Curious thing is that with Isuzu rebadge, you get a better warrentee.

    Anyhow, still looking and awaiting the Aviator so I can make a decision.
  • pexplpexpl Member Posts: 18
    I live in van. Canada, all the lincoln dealers here look pretty ugly and old, which doesn't make people feel luxirious at all. I currently drove a MB ML-320, although the car has some minor reliabilty problems, but it is still a very good car. However, the MB couldn't satisfy me, their new MB-320, doesn't have new featers i am looking for, such as multi-functioning steering wheel and the car really need a redesign everywhere to be part of the MB family. While MB, is busy redesigning i will just trade in my 3 years old MB for now; I am considering heavily on aviator, xc-90, X5 and MDX. But, i can't make the decision until all of em have arrive.

    One question does lincoln, provide lincoln courtesy car or ford car, when the car is at repaired?
    One last comment Ford/Lincoln dealers in Van., all of em should consider heavy renovation, as all of them look pretty ugly.
    And one last quesiton, is cadiliac considering building a new suv to face off against----the aviator?!!
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I think I can answer one of your questions, is Caddy building a new SUV to go against the Aviator, and the answer is...sorta yes...I have read that when Oldsmobile is phased out, some of their products will not disappear, but be shifted around to other makes...I believe that the Bravada, which is one of the triplets (Envoy and Trailblazer), will shift over to Caddy so they have a smaller SUV to offset the big Escalade...since Buick has the Rendezvous and Pontiac has the Aztec (lucky them, lol), Caddy gets the Bravada, which will most certainly be renamed and upgraded with additional luxury amenities...

    Bob
  • porknbeansporknbeans Member Posts: 465
    Caddy is coming out with a direct competitor to the Aviator. It is called the SRX and based on the sigma platform. You can see it here.


    http://pc99.detnews.com/autosinsider/sneakpeek/index.hbs?myrec=27


    WRT to a courtesy car, I don't have a definite answer for you. However, when my dad used to take his in for repairs he used to get whatever they had on hand. Keep in mind that it was a Ford/Lincoln/Mercury dealership.


    I assume that what you mean by renovation is the physical dealerships and not the cars that are in them. My feeling is that it will be quite awhile before you see anything change (probably 2-3 years). The reason is that they were just taken out of Ford's PAG and brought back into the direct Ford fold. This after they were put into the PAG a couple years ago and having their design studios moved to California. In other words, it seems that there has got to be some soul searching and paper work clearing to do before you start to see the effects trickle down to the dealers. (Just my opinion) :)

    Porknbeans

    Grand High Poobah
    The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    is that really a competitor for the Explorer/Mountaineer/Aviator? Am I missing something???

    Bob
  • porknbeansporknbeans Member Posts: 465
    They will both have V8's, seating for 7, leather and goodies to the N'th degree. The difference would be that the Caddy is based on a car platform and may not have the towing capacity that the Aviator will have. My gut feeling though is that it will be marketed directly at the Aviator as a competitor.
    Porknbeans

    Grand High Poobah
    The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
  • porknbeansporknbeans Member Posts: 465
    Bob - The Aviator and SVT will also roughly be the same size. If you don't have a boat, camper or trailer (which most people don't) it's pretty easy to cross shop them.


    A little more evidence of the turmoil internally at Ford regarding how to handle Lincoln/Mercury.


    http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=4843

    Porknbeans

    Grand High Poobah
    The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    Alternative transportation is part of the Lincoln new car warranty for 4 yr / 50K
    36mo/36K of sched. maintance.
    Roadside assistance.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    A major daily newspaper is looking for luxury SUV owners to talk about why they bought their vehicles and what they like/dislike about them. We're defining luxury as the traditional luxury brands (Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Cadillac, Lincoln, etc). Cadillac Escalade EXT and Lincoln Blackwood owners especially encouraged to respond. Please respond with your contact information and vehicle description to jfallon@edmunds.com no later than May 10. Thanks!

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  • jerry2281jerry2281 Member Posts: 97
    Having owned 4 Explorers and l Expedition, all XLT's, I am looking forward to the Aviator intro. I have just extended my 99 Explorer lease by 6 months in the hope that I can evaluate an Aviator before making a final decision. Since I was looking at a 2002 Explorer Limited as a replacement, I expect the Aviator to be similarly priced. Of course the exclusive 300 hp DOHC V-8 and other enhancements not available in the Explorer may result in a fully optioned Aviator pushing $42,000. It will then be a hard decision. I hope the competition in SUV's will result in a low introductory price to fast-start sales.

    The 3 year free service and free loaner is a very nice plus that I have enjoyed as a Lincoln LS owner. My dealer does a fine job of customer service and it would be nice to be able to take both of my vehicles to the same dealer who cares about service after the sale.

    I am waiting for the Aviator intro even though Ford is offering a $1,500 rebate + $1,000 owner loyalty now. I am willing to take a chance that the Aviator will be worth the wait and a good value.

    BTW, if I was going to pull any kind of trailer, I would not consider a MDX V-6. A V-8, especially 300 hp, will have sufficient torque and hp to provide reserves for passing and pulling hills where the V-6 is stressed out and out of torque. All my Explorers were V-6, but I am going with a V-8 this time, for above reasons.
  • jondjond Member Posts: 43
    My dealer seem to think he may have an Aviator sometime in June. Anyone else heard some may be about to ship? This would be earlier than previous dates we have heard.
  • haironghairong Member Posts: 153
    Insider info, but not confirmed: Aviator's list price will come out at the low end of speculation, in the 38k~42k range, not the high end (42k~45k and up). This will give Aviator a price advantage against its competitors. Aviator looks to be a big seller.
  • jerry2281jerry2281 Member Posts: 97
    PPG press release: 2003 Lincoln Aviator will have "laminated front door windows" which "offer enhanced security from the outside and a quieter ride inside." These "windows take 20 times longer to penetrate than standard tempered windows, and they can attenuate sound by up to 6 decibels". Laminated windows enhance comfort for occupants in a vehicle by improving thermal insulation against winter cold and summer heat, and block much of the harmful ultraviolet rays from being transmitted into the passenger compartment."
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    I was told by Lincoln today there is a 7 week delay on the Aviator. Unknown reasons at this time.
    I'll post the reason soon as I know why...

    Rich
  • zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    Crappy FLM launch quality? Sounds like they are being extra cautious with the Expedition. Maybe they are doing the same with the Aviator.

    As a side note I have a 95 Explorer that I actually like, so I am not a Ford basher. But you have to admit that their launch quality has been pretty bad lately.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    It sounds like someone is taking the Aviator's name just a little too literally! ;-)

    tidester
    Host
    SUVs
  • zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    Hah. I get it.

    I had to think about it for a second though. :)
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    I agree...the recent Ford launches have been terrible. Not bad products, just bugs that are a PIA...

    I think it's a little more than a quality hold, but I'm not concerned yet. Better to be safe than to screw up this major launch for Lincoln.

    BTW: Rumor has it the price range will start in the low 40K's and fully loaded in the high 40K's.
  • zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    I can actually sympathize with Ford. I am the engineering manager for a medical device manufacturer. It is always the 1% of the details that you don't think of that come back and bite you in the butt. One vendor screw up can derail the timeline on a whole project. I can also relate to the internal struggles of launch schedule vs. letting the engineers work out the bugs.

    I think Ford is a good example of all of the ill will that can be created by getting a product out there too early. I contend that you can test all you want, but until you build the volume of product that is involved in launching a product, there is always a chance that you may have missed something.

    I would much rather see Ford delay something to make sure they get it right.

    Off my soap box.
  • jerry2281jerry2281 Member Posts: 97
    According to Aviator factory employees, JOB 1 is scheduled for July 22. Your should see one at your dealer by early to mid-August. FINALLY!
  • shellymeister2shellymeister2 Member Posts: 115
    I visited the Concours D'Elegance in Greenwich Connecticut this past saturday morning, which is a very high end mostly classic & antique car show. A number of manufacturers apparently think that this is a good crowd to try sell their new products. As a result, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Cadillac, Lincoln, among others all brought their latest & even upcoming products. Lincoln brought the new Navigator, the new show Lincoln Continental (4 door) that has made the auto show rounds, a new Lincoln Mark ? coupe (gorgeous), and an Aviator. Personally, I'm not that enamored by the Aviator since I feel that it's essentially a gussied-up Explorer, with a bigger engine. I did sit in it and was impressed by the interior far more than the exterior. The interior is somewhat similar to the new interior of the Navigator. The dimensions and overall look to the vehicle is too similar to the Explorer/Mountaineer to really come across as a truly different vehicle. One of the PR people there was tying to convince me that the Aviator is unlike the Explorer because it is more closely related to the Mercury Marauder????? I quickly recovered from that experience & went on to examine the the new Navigator, which truly impressed me on the interior, but left me cold on the exterior...........
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    The Aviator has the same engine as the Mercury Marauder...perhaps this was his connection.
  • haironghairong Member Posts: 153

    The dimensions and overall look to the vehicle is too similar to
    the Explorer/Mountaineer to really come across as a truly
    different vehicle.
    That was my original thought as well. However, I have since come to terms that the Aviator has more difference to Exp. than RX300 to Highlander and MDX to Pilot (besides the conservative exterior), let alone the GM triplets. There were/are not any problems for Toyota/Honda/GM to sell those clones, there shouldn't be any problem for Ford. As long as the price is right, and the quality holds up to Lincoln standard, the Aviator will be a winner.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I was invited to a focus group test drive today for the Aviator. We compared it to the Acura MDX and BMW X5 4.4i. Drove each for about 25 minutes and answered tons of questions about what we liked and didn't like.

    The interior, especially the center stack and console, are great. Power is great. Steering and handling are about the best I've experienced for a truck based SUV. The MDX was smoother and more comfortable and the X5 was a better pure handler but the Aviator had the best compromise of power, handling and smoothness. I prefer the walnut over the Zebrano wood. Window switches are on the console and seat adjustments are on the door. I liked the layout once I got used to it. Easier to get in and out of the 3rd row seat than the MDX. And a bit more room once you were there. The electro-luminescent gauges took some getting used to - they look cool but were hard to read at first due to the layout.

    The BMW was too expensive and small with no 3rd row seat. Ride wasn't as comfortable. But man does it handle! Didn't have any more power than the Aviator but I drove a 4.6i yesterday and it has more power - and the price tag to go along with it.

    The Acura was smoother and more comfortable but not nearly as sporty or distinctive.

    I highly recommend taking a test drive once they arrive if you're at all interested. I don't think you'll be disappointed.
  • jerry2281jerry2281 Member Posts: 97
    A fellow member of the Lincoln LS Owner's Club, AKIRBY, was invited to a comparison test of the Aviator, MDX and BMW X5. Following is a summary of his comments: Test date: 6/9/02. Spent 30 minutes driving each around Braselton, GA, Acura was most car-like as expected. Smooth, nice interior, comfortable but difficult entry into 3rd seat. Power was only adequate. Definitely not a sporty type.

    BMW had best handling, but rougher over broken pavement. Did not like interior. Power was good, but not as good as X5 4.6i driven previous day. Less interior space and no 3rd seat. Very sporty but most expensive and smallest of the three.

    Aviator had black exterior with grey wood trim and cream interior. Center dash was brushed nickel and very nice Shifter and console has very luxureous feel. Nice panel covering the DVD Navigation system. Instruments were very high tech and easy to see.

    Power was great. Rode more like a truck compared to other two, but still better than most SUVs. Precise steering and wood steering wheel.

    Wasn't crazy about the wheels, dash, except center stack and would prefer a tighter suspension. MSRP was $43K. I would pick Aviator over other two. BMW is too small and expensive and don't like styling. Acura MDX is too conservative and costs almost as much as the Aviator.

    akirby-THANKS FOR YOUR COMMENTS.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Wow - that sounds just like my post #131!

    Wait - that was my post.

    That's ok - both posts had slightly different info. I should have done one and cut and pasted it anyway.
  • jerry2281jerry2281 Member Posts: 97
    I was interrupted when composing my summary of your post. When I finally posted, you had posted a few minutes before. I didn't know. Honest!

    Anyway, thanks for the post.
  • bennewmanbennewman Member Posts: 12
    To those of you who have now test driven the Aviator, was there any word on gas mileage? Also, is the navigation system DVD based or CD based?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    IIRC the mileage on the AWD version that I drove was listed as 14/18 but I'm not 100% sure. There weren't any window stickers. RWD version should be 15/19 or so.

    The nav is DVD but I don't think it will be available right away.
  • bill_lbill_l Member Posts: 38
    It seems the 3rd row seat is not split. What's
    wrong with the split seating? Anyone has ideas
    if Lincoln will offer the option of a 3rd row
    split seating.
  • jerry2281jerry2281 Member Posts: 97
    I understand that Aviator will have 2+2+2 seating either standard or optional. I assume each of the second and third row seats can each be folded down independently.
  • johnnylincjohnnylinc Member Posts: 308
    The Av has standard bucket seats in the second row that fold flat; optional second-row seating is a 40/20/40 split bench. The third row is a two-passenger bench that folds flat & stows in the floor. There's no mention in the product guide of the 3rd row being split, so it most likely isn't.

    Incidentally, the front buckets are both heated AND cooled, like those available on the Navigator, and they're standard in the Av. Neat feature, IMO.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The 3rd row is NOT split - it's one piece. It's not that wide to begin with so I don't think you would gain very much by folding only one side. The Acura MDX did have a split 3rd row and to me it seemed like more of a hassle to have to fold both independently since 98% of the time you would want both folded anyway.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    BTW - the 2nd row console is CAVERNOUS. The top folds forward effectively doubling the size of the console. Absolutely dwarfed the Acura and BMW in that department.
  • jerry2281jerry2281 Member Posts: 97
    Apparently, the 2003 Aviator was to go into production in July, but production has been delayed to September 22 due to several engineering problems discovered prior to Job 1. Problems with braking system, front suspension "shimmy", and 4.6 V-8 overheating.

    If Lincoln has to delay introduction to get things right, then I applaud them. I believe the Aviator could win the TOYA against the other mid-size luxury SUV's with it's most powerful engine in it's class, but it must have a trouble-free launch. The VW Tourage and Porsche Cayenne will raise the bar in this segment and build quality is extremely important in the MBZ, BMW, VW and Porsche Black Forest.

    Good luck to the Lincoln engineers who are working hard to deliver a great, new marque in the SUV field.

    BTW, when will the 4.6 be available in the Lincon LS (hint, hint)?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Not sure about the 4.6 for the LS but the 5.0 version pumping out 400 hp is due out in 2004 or so the rumour goes. Naturally aspirated, too.

    I agree that Ford is doing the right thing delaying the launch if there are technical problems. But they need to start finding and fixing them before they announce the date. People still associate a production delay or early recall with poor quality (I don't but some do). I call it good quality control and testing.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    The latest on the Aviator arrival is Aug. Our first unit has a build date of week 3 of july.

    I am very pleased to hear the positive comments on the Aviator....When I drove it I was very much impressed and had the thought that this is going to be a big winner for Lincoln...But I am biased.

    If Lincoln gives us a good lease program from the get-go we have a winner.
    Rich
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I agree. The only downside I could see was that although it's one of the best riding truck based SUV's I've driven, you can still feel the truck chassis on rough pavement or terrain. That's a plus for off-roading but let's face it - 98% of these will never see anything but pavement. The Acura and BMW soaked up the bumps a little better (as expected). The extra towing capacity should also help differentiate it. It will probably steal some Explorer Limited or top end Mountaineer sales. I would probably spring for the difference if I were buying one. And folks who want a Navigator but just can't afford it.

    It's a baby navigator with all the bells and whistles but it's quicker and more nimble and a lot less $$$.
  • sirknightdsirknightd Member Posts: 96
    Hi...

    is the build start date of july and the dealer arrival of august still the projection?
    There seems to be conflicting posts

    Also, does anyone think the gps navigation will be available from the beginning of the launch?
    any word on the vivid red color?

    thanks
    mike
  • haironghairong Member Posts: 153
    Yes, Yes and don't know. Both RES DVD and AdvancedTrac were late availability at the initial announcement. But if the September launch is true, I don't know if they can make it.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    We still have an ETA of job 1 towards the end of July with a dealership ETA of Aug.....I will keep everyone updated about any changes I hear about.

    Rich
  • sirknightdsirknightd Member Posts: 96
    Thanks for keeping us posted.
  • jondjond Member Posts: 43
    My local dealer just got two Aviators. No pricing yet, these are probably for display at an upcoming event here. Drove one the other day. Nice SUV, but is an SUV. Better ride than most, but you can still feel that it is a truck frame. Looks like a baby Navigator. Based on the fact that the dealer has a couple, I would think they are not delayed.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    That was my impression exactly - it's still a truck underneath. One of the best riding and handling truck chassis but a truck nonetheless. Of course that's a positive if you actually need to go off-road.

    What did you think about the satin nickel center stack and console?
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