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Comments
I don't want to go any harsher w/chemicals than the Goo Gone. I'll try a foam pad w/ glazing compound first, then I'll have to take it to a professional b/c I'm not experienced with a buffer.
Thanks again. I'll let you know how it works out.
Noticed couple of scratch removing products at the store. Any pros/cons for using these products.
Thanks in advance for any tip.
The Sandman :-)
Alternatively, try using a non-whitening toothpaste and the orbital buffer/foam pad. It's a little mesy, but usually does the trick.
I can never get scratches polished out by hand. It usually takes a few minutes with the orbital. But be careful around the edges and don't use terrycloth or synthetic lams wool bonets or pads. The foam ones work the best for polishing.
On top of that, a few weeks later somebody keyed the car.
I went to a body shop and made an appointment to fix all this. They will remove the rear bumper and one of the side panels (where the car was keyed rather badly) and repaint them. By the way, the car color is black.
A couple of questions for the experts here - I asked if I need to order the right paint from Acura, and was told no - they could get the color from the door label, and they carried all possible colors. How is that possible? There must be thousands of different colors. Also what about the quality of the paint? Don't I want the same kind/type as OEM? What are the chances the new paint will match the old one? Also, is the painting process much different than the manufacturer's painting process?
Any input will be greatly appreciated!
The problem is that there are always slight variations and getting paint from another batch will be slightly different.
I had an exact match recently when they used a computerized paint system to establish the color on a front bumper. Perfect.
however, paint makers don't want to get shut out because they label baby-barf orange as GM white. so they try hard. in major cities, the large refinish outfits like PPG and DuPont have factory-packed paint down to pint sizes that are rigorously tested. of course, sunlight and air contact fade paint, so YMMV. black is a little safer in this respect.
most paint resellers to the body shops, and those body shops that mix their own, have bulk colors and base mixes, auto-stirring stands for the bulk colors for consistency, and mix by fractional gram weights. I was the first non-founder employee of a start-up company here in the late 1980s that licensed all the refinish formulations of almost all the paint makers and computerized them, allowing easier conversion for quantity, as opposed to looking up the formula in a book and mixing just quarts and gallons.
I am led to believe that the scan-and-calculate mixers we dreamed about, and that are fairly common in home improvement stores and hardware stores for house paint, have gotten to the auto refinish trade, which will help a bit. you put a sample under the light, hit a button, and the formula is displayed. that can really do a job to overcome the fade issue.
in the end, however, it is possible for a skilled painter to blend blue into green almost imperceptibly without these tricks. you start with as close as you can get, dabbing a bit on the fingernail and checking it in several different colors of light next to the car. then, starting on the damaged side, you lay down small but successively larger thin "flash" coats of color... each time, mixing a little more "blend" color-free paint base in the spraygun cup. I have seen this in a techniques class, and it's amazing. and that was 15 years ago.
moral: good materials in great hands make unbelieveable quality, and it can get better than that. crap anywhere in the work flow yields crap.
In each case we used either the vehicle's door-sticker code or, in some cases where the paint's chemical composition had changed (eg: new EPA rules), a code supplied by either the mfr or the paint supplier (NAPA) to account for new molecular stuff.
Of course, using this process guaranteed a match only to vehicles whose paint was totally unfaded/glazed/otherwise damaged by weather effects. If your vehicle is kept outdoors, the only way to get the perfect match is with one of the spectrum analyzers that schrad mentioned. You stick paint chip in the machine and it shines pure white light on the chip, then measures the wavelength of the reflected light, and determines which paint pigments are needed to create exactly the same reflected wavelengths. Astrophysicists use similar technique to determine the chemical composition of objects in the cosmos.
DjB
I did what painting I have done from Dupli-Color cans over the years, but I learned more about paint in a year of supposedly wrangling computers by discussion, example, and sitting through a few workshops than I could have believed.
I assume all those chemistries are about gone now, due to EPA and other rules and regulations. no ten parts of liver-eating solvent to one part of "wear supplied air respirators when handling this product" paint any more.
or so the dings in soft paint thread would have me believe.
DjB
Another question - is the paint/painting process inferior to the factory paint/paint job? And do I have to wait for a while before waxing?
Thanks again!
Well, I let it sit for a couple of days, and after a rainstorm the remaining marker is gone. Completely. Can't find it at all.
I promptly washed and waxed and thanked the Lord for unexpected blessings (like acid rain?).
Thanks for all of your suggestions.
that said, there are a lot of owners who had peeling paint over the years who think that a roller and a can of Dutch Boy semigloss beats what they got.
a really good tech with a clean painting bay and good materials can meet or beat your average factory job even if they shouldn't have put off hitting the rest room before mixing the paint.
general advice is to NOT muck around with new paint for a week, not leaving it blazing hot sun during this time, etc. to insure all the crosslinking and bonding is complete, and the surface is as hard as it will get. stuff DOES happen, however, and if you can't see the scratches when the squirrels run across the car, don't have a coronary over it.
here is a link I found from google: http://www.seenontvmall.com/automotive/gs27.htm
The Sandman :-(
(Just my personal opinion)
stoddard solvent (tar and bug remover) is also fairly mild, but it will leave white rings when it dries from softening wax. it should be obvious how to deal with that
you need to take the "body color" code to the paint shop of your choice and buy appropriate primer, rust-killer if any is needed, and paint for the job.
assuming you had to ask the question, you won't be an auto paint pro. so for scratches with rust, you will want a 3M rust remover pen, and a brush-in-cap bottle of primer, both of which will be used to fill in scratches and scratches ONLY.
depending on the mess you have back there, you may want to just cover the scratches, in which case you get a brush-in-cap bottle of top color coat with the paint code you pulled... or something like 4 cans of dupli-color lacquer of the same production code (inked on the bottom of the can.) it will take 2 or 3 cans of dupli-color clear top coat to put a "gloss" coat over the color.
you need to also get another can of paint to practice your technique on painting, so you don't end up with a job that looks like it was done by putting a firecracker in a can of latex paint, and running.
- OR - put in a bedliner after killing any rust and primering... OR use a gallon of HercuLiner "brush on bedliner" and screw the color coat. both of these options will take a little more whanging and banging than paint.
you will want to cut and destroy any wax in the bed before any painting... small areas, 99% isopropyl alcohol from the drugstore (ahnydrous isopropyl) and a rag will work. larger areas, you could wash the bed a couple times with Dawn dishwashing detergent, and rinse well with the garden hose.
Please describe the conditions which you are trying to remove and describe the general paint contidion.
My idea is to change to a paint that was popular on Mercedes' in the '60s and '70s, but I don't have any idea how to go about finding someone (even if I keep the original color) who can do a job which you folk described above as "better than OEM."
I've read back over the last 40 or so posts and don't have an idea of how to "shop" for people who will do the job right. I really don't want the car to end up looking like a kit car -- even in five or six years.
Advice will be very welcome.
Thanks and take care.
Joe W.
Most old cars are not worth the money for this kind of paint job though.
Obviously I'm new to this phase of my possible project.
Your suggestions are good, I think. I have a connection to the New England president of the hot rod association so that's a good place to start. And have a wonderful garage about 20 miles away that specializes in Maserati's and Ferrari's.
I'm sure I won't get the same information from everyone, so I'm wondering how I can qualify conflicting reputations -- what are characteristics beyond reputation that a "consumer" can use to improve chances of an excellent job.
As you said, I'm sure this will be a lot of $$ so I want to make it right.
Thanks again.
Joe W.
The clear-coat is like an extra layer of paint without the pigment, only the shine. As bigfur said, it will keep the car shinier longer. Almost all new cars have clear-coats. But if you keep your car washed and waxed regularly it's not that big a deal, and not having a clear-coat makes it easier to polish out any scratches or abrasions or oxidation in the paint after a few years on the road.
If you have the energy (and patience) to go on --
are there particular paints, brands or whatever, to avoid?
How many coats make a good job? I'll bet the answer to that one is based on taste and .... Is one coat the minimum, or more? What would be desirable: I'm thinking of depth of color, longevity, maintenance, and so on.
Several times the expense is mentioned. How expensive do you think you should expect? Or is the question premature? Maybe later, then.
Again, much appreciated.
Joe W.
the durability of paint is dependent on a certain thickness of vehicle, or binder if you prefer, and well-adhering to whatever is below it. it also depends on the chemistry of the paint being stable in temperature extremes, and compatible with the shrink-and-stretch rates of the underlying layers and body of the car.
goop it on too thick, you will have adhesion issues and finish issues from bad drying. too thin, it won't make the minimum requirement and is more likely to be damaged by temp extremes.
this also applies to clear coat, because that is just vehicle and no color.
if you see a lot of good jobs come out of one or two shops in the area, and they stay good over a couple of years or more, the shop is likely to know what they are doing. they will charge accordingly; painting correctly means a lot of labor went into preparing the surface and insuring what is underneath is stable and will work with the paint going on top. labor costs a lot. some of the newer paints are also darned pricey, but it always costs much more to screw up the job and have it redone, including taking the car down to primer or metal if the job was really hosed up.
so a lot of answers sort of follow directly from picking a good shop in the first place. they will not recommend using lawn chair paint, and if you really want a swimmingly-deep floating look on your ride and don't want to see any changes for years, that will narrow it down to their higher lines of paint usually. at some point, you'll have to trust 'em to be as good as they were on all the sample cars.
A couple of years ago, a buddy of mine had an old 912 repainted. If I remember right, he was talking about 4 coats of paint, with the car completely stripped inside and out. I think it cost him about $6K here in San Diego. Which I thought was a pretty good deal given how much work was involved in stripping the body down for painting, and given how much the shops get on the small jobs. I think the shop had the car for 2 weeks.
I'll get back with more questions once I've spoken with a couple of the people who are recommended. This may take awhile...don't think I've wandered off. Back to lurking.
Take care.
Joe W.
it does take a day or two for the chemical cure in the paint chemistry to complete. additional curing and solvent loss is why traditionally customers have been told don't wax or wash the paint until next week, like you're not supposed to drive on "dry" but partially-cured concrete.
EPA has rattled a lot of cages in the past few years, and there may not be such a thing allowed as a 10:1 reduction any more.
who's currently painting? -- are we down to Dutch Boy Eggshell yet, or just what is the current state of trying to stay legal and get paint that stays on.
Terry
it's going to be a slow process getting the scuff off, but anything aggressive on cutting through the rubber is going to be equally aggressive on the paint and plastic that make up what passes for bumpers nowadays. rubber is really petrochemical plastic, and not that different from the bumper vinyl and/or abs... or for that matter, the vehicle in paint.
Well, my own inspection after I had calmed down leads me to believe the bumper won't need replacing, no visible cracking or anything, so I spoke with Dent-Pro about the chips and scratches, and their estimate is $203. That I can live with.
Maybe I'll regret this down the line, but it seems to me like the car really pretty much bounced back into place (5mph safety bumper and all that). . .
Anyone else have a similar situation with the new plastic bumpers? Do you think I'm making a mistake if I only take care of the obvious cosmetic problem if I can't see potential other problems?
Take care, Joe
you get too much paint (or clear) on at the same time, as bigfur mentioned, you get the big round globs known as "orange peel". also shows up if the paint mix is not kept well mixed.
The reason I ask is that the shop we use, which does a huge amount of business with the collector and show car people, insist on having a car for a minimum of 1 week, even for rather minor work. The reason (as best as I remember) was that they insist on 24 hours and polishing between coats, with multiple coats of paint. I've seen some really great restored classics there that have been in process for weeks.
that's how you do it if time and money are no object, all right... and you have plenty of space to store all those vehicles... or in their case, the two or eight that they can do a week, whatever their capacity is.
I strongly suspect they are at the top end of the price scale, even if only because they don't have the volume that the neighborhood fender shop has, and still have to amortize all their expenses across income like the rest of us.
bet if you look at their clearcoat jobs, it's like seeing a perfect (pick_color) image of yourself in a mirror at the bottom of a deep pool of perfect water, with not a ripple on the surface.
..... I once had to wait 6 weeks to get the car in. But it was worth it. In all the times we have used them, and all the years we have had the cars after they did their work, we've never seen any evidence of masking, or differential fading, chipping, or oxidation. You'd never know it wasn't all original paint.
On average, for the occasional fender bender kind of work we have had done, they come in about 50%-100% higher than the other bids we have obtained for insurance. But we have always insisted on them, and they have always found a way to work it out with the insurance companies.