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Paint and Body Maintenance & Repair

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Comments

  • sddlwsddlw Member Posts: 361
    Thats'good advice from swschrad. I'd only use acetone as a last resort. It is a very harsh solvent for a car paint surface. If the solvents don't work, you might try buffing the marks out with a glazing compound and an orbital buffer.
  • twistinmelontwistinmelon Member Posts: 90
    Thanks for the recommendations. I used some Goo Gone at the recommendation of the guy at the local auto paint shop. It got the marker down 75 percent or so, but it's still there (though it looks purplish rather than black now).

    I don't want to go any harsher w/chemicals than the Goo Gone. I'll try a foam pad w/ glazing compound first, then I'll have to take it to a professional b/c I'm not experienced with a buffer.

    Thanks again. I'll let you know how it works out.
  • ripujeetripujeet Member Posts: 2
    Wonder if someone could suggest on how to remove light scratch on my late model light green ford.

    Noticed couple of scratch removing products at the store. Any pros/cons for using these products.

    Thanks in advance for any tip.
  • britton2britton2 Member Posts: 305
    I would try Meguiar's Scratch X - it comes in a black tube and I got mine at Wal-mart -
  • sandman46sandman46 Member Posts: 1,798
    I tried that other brand, can't recall its name now, and it did absolutely nothing with my scratch. Totally bogus product! Does anyone else know of a product that truly does work???

    The Sandman :-)
  • sddlwsddlw Member Posts: 361
    I would try Mequires "Swirl Remover" followed by "Show Car Glaze" using a good orbital buffer and a foam pad.

    Alternatively, try using a non-whitening toothpaste and the orbital buffer/foam pad. It's a little mesy, but usually does the trick.

    I can never get scratches polished out by hand. It usually takes a few minutes with the orbital. But be careful around the edges and don't use terrycloth or synthetic lams wool bonets or pads. The foam ones work the best for polishing.
  • sgrd0qsgrd0q Member Posts: 398
    Somebody scraped the rear bumper of our new car. (What a great way so save $30 when parking in Manhattan - don't go to a parking garage, instead look for a spot to park on the street - that usually takes 30 to 45 minutes - park the car but make sure to leave it long enough in order to get a big scrape on one of the bumpers, then spend hundreds of dollars to repaint the bumper!)

    On top of that, a few weeks later somebody keyed the car.

    I went to a body shop and made an appointment to fix all this. They will remove the rear bumper and one of the side panels (where the car was keyed rather badly) and repaint them. By the way, the car color is black.

    A couple of questions for the experts here - I asked if I need to order the right paint from Acura, and was told no - they could get the color from the door label, and they carried all possible colors. How is that possible? There must be thousands of different colors. Also what about the quality of the paint? Don't I want the same kind/type as OEM? What are the chances the new paint will match the old one? Also, is the painting process much different than the manufacturer's painting process?

    Any input will be greatly appreciated!
  • mrdetailermrdetailer Member Posts: 1,118
    That frankly is a tough issue. I've had bad paint matching from both factory paint, and 3rd party ones, and also excellent matching from both sources.

    The problem is that there are always slight variations and getting paint from another batch will be slightly different.

    I had an exact match recently when they used a computerized paint system to establish the color on a front bumper. Perfect.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    OEM may mean several paint suppliers deliver tubs of paint to the factory (I think they are around 40 gallons, but may be mildly off in the quantity. it is definitely a big gob of paint.) no telling whose paint is on your vehicle to a certainty without interrogating the factory's records.

    however, paint makers don't want to get shut out because they label baby-barf orange as GM white. so they try hard. in major cities, the large refinish outfits like PPG and DuPont have factory-packed paint down to pint sizes that are rigorously tested. of course, sunlight and air contact fade paint, so YMMV. black is a little safer in this respect.

    most paint resellers to the body shops, and those body shops that mix their own, have bulk colors and base mixes, auto-stirring stands for the bulk colors for consistency, and mix by fractional gram weights. I was the first non-founder employee of a start-up company here in the late 1980s that licensed all the refinish formulations of almost all the paint makers and computerized them, allowing easier conversion for quantity, as opposed to looking up the formula in a book and mixing just quarts and gallons.

    I am led to believe that the scan-and-calculate mixers we dreamed about, and that are fairly common in home improvement stores and hardware stores for house paint, have gotten to the auto refinish trade, which will help a bit. you put a sample under the light, hit a button, and the formula is displayed. that can really do a job to overcome the fade issue.

    in the end, however, it is possible for a skilled painter to blend blue into green almost imperceptibly without these tricks. you start with as close as you can get, dabbing a bit on the fingernail and checking it in several different colors of light next to the car. then, starting on the damaged side, you lay down small but successively larger thin "flash" coats of color... each time, mixing a little more "blend" color-free paint base in the spraygun cup. I have seen this in a techniques class, and it's amazing. and that was 15 years ago.

    moral: good materials in great hands make unbelieveable quality, and it can get better than that. crap anywhere in the work flow yields crap.
  • bruticusbruticus Member Posts: 229
    I worked for my father's shop in the mid-90s. Part of my job list was mixing paint, using the formula book, balance beam, and mixer that swschrad mentioned.

    In each case we used either the vehicle's door-sticker code or, in some cases where the paint's chemical composition had changed (eg: new EPA rules), a code supplied by either the mfr or the paint supplier (NAPA) to account for new molecular stuff.

    Of course, using this process guaranteed a match only to vehicles whose paint was totally unfaded/glazed/otherwise damaged by weather effects. If your vehicle is kept outdoors, the only way to get the perfect match is with one of the spectrum analyzers that schrad mentioned. You stick paint chip in the machine and it shines pure white light on the chip, then measures the wavelength of the reflected light, and determines which paint pigments are needed to create exactly the same reflected wavelengths. Astrophysicists use similar technique to determine the chemical composition of objects in the cosmos.

    DjB
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    even "white" has some grey, purple, etc. in it to cut the blinding glare from pure white, and all pigments except lampblack and titanium-dioxide white will fade in the sun. at different rates, just to make it more interesting. that's why matching the color is so much darn fun.

    I did what painting I have done from Dupli-Color cans over the years, but I learned more about paint in a year of supposedly wrangling computers by discussion, example, and sitting through a few workshops than I could have believed.

    I assume all those chemistries are about gone now, due to EPA and other rules and regulations. no ten parts of liver-eating solvent to one part of "wear supplied air respirators when handling this product" paint any more.

    or so the dings in soft paint thread would have me believe.
  • bruticusbruticus Member Posts: 229
    One of the guys who worked for my dad was forced to change professions because of long-term exposure to fumes. Even with masks/filters etc it's rough.

    DjB
  • sgrd0qsgrd0q Member Posts: 398
    Thank you guys - all this info is much appreciated!

    Another question - is the paint/painting process inferior to the factory paint/paint job? And do I have to wait for a while before waxing?

    Thanks again!
  • twistinmelontwistinmelon Member Posts: 90
    I used Goo Gone on some black permanent marker on the hood of my white 2002 Accord, but I could still see a dark shadow of the graffitti.

    Well, I let it sit for a couple of days, and after a rainstorm the remaining marker is gone. Completely. Can't find it at all.

    I promptly washed and waxed and thanked the Lord for unexpected blessings (like acid rain?).

    Thanks for all of your suggestions.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    factory painting can be the best... depending on whether they care... and whether they stick with a chemical system or buy whatever bids the best this week. it is hard to duplicate a first-rate factory paint job because you will never have the car frame and body panels attached with no trim, glass, accessories, tires, or geegaws again.

    that said, there are a lot of owners who had peeling paint over the years who think that a roller and a can of Dutch Boy semigloss beats what they got.

    a really good tech with a clean painting bay and good materials can meet or beat your average factory job even if they shouldn't have put off hitting the rest room before mixing the paint.

    general advice is to NOT muck around with new paint for a week, not leaving it blazing hot sun during this time, etc. to insure all the crosslinking and bonding is complete, and the surface is as hard as it will get. stuff DOES happen, however, and if you can't see the scratches when the squirrels run across the car, don't have a coronary over it.
  • sgrd0qsgrd0q Member Posts: 398
    thanks swschrad - comments much appreciated!
  • atuzaiatuzai Member Posts: 47
    Saw a TV commercial yesterday about GS 27 scratch remover. Seems very easy to use and great results. Anyone has experience with it? Do you think it will work with new car paint with no damage on the car?


    here is a link I found from google: http://www.seenontvmall.com/automotive/gs27.htm

  • sandman46sandman46 Member Posts: 1,798
    Garbage, garbage, garbage!!! I got some of this stuff and it did nothing on my car or a customers of mine. What a bunch of crap! Save your money and don't buy this crap!

    The Sandman :-(
    (Just my personal opinion)
  • jturejture Member Posts: 1
    If I ever find the kid who threw a huge gob of pink bubble gum on my car's hood ... anyway, my dealer's detail guy was able to remove the gum from the hood without damaging the finish, but can anyone suggest a product I can use rather than having to go to the dealer every time something nasty gets on the paint?
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    and I had what appeared to be crayoning on the back of Dad's suburban once and called it in.. the cop who came out offered a screen wipe for his laptop that also took that off. but most of those have a neutral-ionic cleaner as well as isopropyl alcohol. the alcohol is a little harsher on paint than the mineral spirits, but I have used it as a wax strip many a time.

    stoddard solvent (tar and bug remover) is also fairly mild, but it will leave white rings when it dries from softening wax. it should be obvious how to deal with that ;)
  • ranger96ranger96 Member Posts: 16
    I just a used 1996 Ford Ranger and the bed is all scrached and faded. What can i use to paint it.THANX
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    on the drivers' door jamb will be one or two paint codes, about on the bottom third of the label. these two or three letter + number codes specify the paint color.

    you need to take the "body color" code to the paint shop of your choice and buy appropriate primer, rust-killer if any is needed, and paint for the job.

    assuming you had to ask the question, you won't be an auto paint pro. so for scratches with rust, you will want a 3M rust remover pen, and a brush-in-cap bottle of primer, both of which will be used to fill in scratches and scratches ONLY.

    depending on the mess you have back there, you may want to just cover the scratches, in which case you get a brush-in-cap bottle of top color coat with the paint code you pulled... or something like 4 cans of dupli-color lacquer of the same production code (inked on the bottom of the can.) it will take 2 or 3 cans of dupli-color clear top coat to put a "gloss" coat over the color.

    you need to also get another can of paint to practice your technique on painting, so you don't end up with a job that looks like it was done by putting a firecracker in a can of latex paint, and running.

    - OR - put in a bedliner after killing any rust and primering... OR use a gallon of HercuLiner "brush on bedliner" and screw the color coat. both of these options will take a little more whanging and banging than paint.

    you will want to cut and destroy any wax in the bed before any painting... small areas, 99% isopropyl alcohol from the drugstore (ahnydrous isopropyl) and a rag will work. larger areas, you could wash the bed a couple times with Dawn dishwashing detergent, and rinse well with the garden hose.
  • fear_hopefear_hope Member Posts: 90
    Found a "rubbing compound" by 3M that is safe for clear coats on the shelf with other do-it-yourself body work products at Wal-Mart. It is a liquid in a black bottle. Says that it removes medium scratches on the label. I tried it by hand on a soft 100% cotton cloth, changing spots often and buffing by hand when dry. It did an amazing job and left the paint with a deep shine. I just did it a little at a time until the scratches were gone.
  • mrdetailermrdetailer Member Posts: 1,118
    To me generally rubbing compounds are serious stuff. Generally start with something milder then go harsher.

    Please describe the conditions which you are trying to remove and describe the general paint contidion.
  • ltsengltseng Member Posts: 9
    I found a raw egg white dry out on my car this summer in Texas after returning from my vacation. I washed it, buff it, and curve it, but couldn't get it off. Is there anyway to remove it. Thanks.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    the frescoes on ancient European churches done from 1200 on... frescoes being painting with egg white being the paint base... last to this day. good luck on that one, it is almost certain in my humble opinion to involve professionals, serious abrasive dusts, and an artists' touch with a powered buffer.
  • jwilson1jwilson1 Member Posts: 956
    I'm looking at a "project" that looks like it would be fun. It seems to be mechanically sound, except it needs new paint. Badly.

    My idea is to change to a paint that was popular on Mercedes' in the '60s and '70s, but I don't have any idea how to go about finding someone (even if I keep the original color) who can do a job which you folk described above as "better than OEM."

    I've read back over the last 40 or so posts and don't have an idea of how to "shop" for people who will do the job right. I really don't want the car to end up looking like a kit car -- even in five or six years.

    Advice will be very welcome.

    Thanks and take care.
    Joe W.
  • bigfurbigfur Member Posts: 649
    Take a look around at custom car shows and things, ask the people there who does the paint on their cars, alot of times just a paint shop not a bodyshop will do it. i know here in Minneapolis, MN there is a place called House of Color. They have the best painters in the state from what ive seen. ask around to people and they will usually tell you the best place to go.
  • sddlwsddlw Member Posts: 361
    Are you near a large metro area? That would help. As bigfur said, places where custom cars are found are a great source of info like Hot Rod clubs and places where all the rods gather on a Friday night. Talk to the guys with the realy great looking paint jobs. Or car dealers that specialize in classic cars and used high end cars like Bentley and Rolls. Ask them where they have their body and paint work done.

    Most old cars are not worth the money for this kind of paint job though.
  • jwilson1jwilson1 Member Posts: 956
    Can yo9u take me to the next phase -- assuming I get 2 or 3 names?

    Obviously I'm new to this phase of my possible project.

    Your suggestions are good, I think. I have a connection to the New England president of the hot rod association so that's a good place to start. And have a wonderful garage about 20 miles away that specializes in Maserati's and Ferrari's.

    I'm sure I won't get the same information from everyone, so I'm wondering how I can qualify conflicting reputations -- what are characteristics beyond reputation that a "consumer" can use to improve chances of an excellent job.

    As you said, I'm sure this will be a lot of $$ so I want to make it right.

    Thanks again.
    Joe W.
  • bigfurbigfur Member Posts: 649
    i know how people are about restoring cars and the paint they used at the time, but tell them when they do your car to do two stage paint (base coat/clear coat) it will keep the shine alot longer than single stage or anything else
  • sddlwsddlw Member Posts: 361
    Spend some time with the shop people, talking to them and ask to look at some of the jobs they have in process. Get down close, with some really good light and look for imperfections and "fish-eyes" in the paint. Ask the guy to explain exactly what they are proposing to do. How many coats, how long between coats, wet sanding and/or polishing between coats. Dissasembly of the trim. What about the door jams, trunk lid, underside of the hood, etc. Go to more than one shop if you can. After the second or third visit, you'll be suprised at how much you will know about paint.

    The clear-coat is like an extra layer of paint without the pigment, only the shine. As bigfur said, it will keep the car shinier longer. Almost all new cars have clear-coats. But if you keep your car washed and waxed regularly it's not that big a deal, and not having a clear-coat makes it easier to polish out any scratches or abrasions or oxidation in the paint after a few years on the road.
  • jwilson1jwilson1 Member Posts: 956
    Thanks. Your clarity is helpful.

    If you have the energy (and patience) to go on --

    are there particular paints, brands or whatever, to avoid?

    How many coats make a good job? I'll bet the answer to that one is based on taste and .... Is one coat the minimum, or more? What would be desirable: I'm thinking of depth of color, longevity, maintenance, and so on.

    Several times the expense is mentioned. How expensive do you think you should expect? Or is the question premature? Maybe later, then.

    Again, much appreciated.
    Joe W.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    in practice, especially if you are covering a different color, a "good coat" will be several "flash coats" thick. a "flash coat" has a considerable amount indeed of solvent in it, so the solvent evaporates and the paint is floated more evenly over any irregularities. you can see the last of the solvent evaporate on a flash coat, there is a sudden noticeable change in the paint, and at that point more is sprayed on, so you build up to one REAL layer of paint in little baby steps.

    the durability of paint is dependent on a certain thickness of vehicle, or binder if you prefer, and well-adhering to whatever is below it. it also depends on the chemistry of the paint being stable in temperature extremes, and compatible with the shrink-and-stretch rates of the underlying layers and body of the car.

    goop it on too thick, you will have adhesion issues and finish issues from bad drying. too thin, it won't make the minimum requirement and is more likely to be damaged by temp extremes.

    this also applies to clear coat, because that is just vehicle and no color.

    if you see a lot of good jobs come out of one or two shops in the area, and they stay good over a couple of years or more, the shop is likely to know what they are doing. they will charge accordingly; painting correctly means a lot of labor went into preparing the surface and insuring what is underneath is stable and will work with the paint going on top. labor costs a lot. some of the newer paints are also darned pricey, but it always costs much more to screw up the job and have it redone, including taking the car down to primer or metal if the job was really hosed up.

    so a lot of answers sort of follow directly from picking a good shop in the first place. they will not recommend using lawn chair paint, and if you really want a swimmingly-deep floating look on your ride and don't want to see any changes for years, that will narrow it down to their higher lines of paint usually. at some point, you'll have to trust 'em to be as good as they were on all the sample cars.
  • sddlwsddlw Member Posts: 361
    I'm a little confused. I was under the impression that several coats of color, spaced about a day apart, with some polishing between each coat would result in the most durable paint with the highest gloss. I was also under the impression that clearcoats tended to be either single coats or rather thin.

    A couple of years ago, a buddy of mine had an old 912 repainted. If I remember right, he was talking about 4 coats of paint, with the car completely stripped inside and out. I think it cost him about $6K here in San Diego. Which I thought was a pretty good deal given how much work was involved in stripping the body down for painting, and given how much the shops get on the small jobs. I think the shop had the car for 2 weeks.
  • jwilson1jwilson1 Member Posts: 956
    You guys are great with the information.

    I'll get back with more questions once I've spoken with a couple of the people who are recommended. This may take awhile...don't think I've wandered off. Back to lurking.

    Take care.
    Joe W.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    and current practice may vary. what I know and saw in demos was that the color was put down in flash coats that built up to a solid coat, this was about a 10:1 dilution in solvent. the end result if the flash coats were immediately followed up would have been one solid coat of color that should have been well-levelled out.

    it does take a day or two for the chemical cure in the paint chemistry to complete. additional curing and solvent loss is why traditionally customers have been told don't wax or wash the paint until next week, like you're not supposed to drive on "dry" but partially-cured concrete.

    EPA has rattled a lot of cages in the past few years, and there may not be such a thing allowed as a 10:1 reduction any more.

    who's currently painting? -- are we down to Dutch Boy Eggshell yet, or just what is the current state of trying to stay legal and get paint that stays on.
  • kominskykominsky Member Posts: 850
    Driving home from work today, a semi either blew a tire or kicked up a chunk of blown tire that hit my car. There is no dent and, as near as I can tell, no scratches. There is, however, a big black scuff mark on my front fender. I wiped over it with a quick detailer which seemed to remove some of the dusty stuff from the edges, but the bulk of it remained in place. Any suggestions on removing it? Thanks in advance.

    Terry
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    and maybe bug 'n' tar remover. rotate some goo gone and use that real lightly... test an inconspicuous area first, etc etc, because that contains some stronger solvents like acetone in small amounts.

    it's going to be a slow process getting the scuff off, but anything aggressive on cutting through the rubber is going to be equally aggressive on the paint and plastic that make up what passes for bumpers nowadays. rubber is really petrochemical plastic, and not that different from the bumper vinyl and/or abs... or for that matter, the vehicle in paint.
  • kominskykominsky Member Posts: 850
    thanks!
  • bigfurbigfur Member Posts: 649
    with two stage paints...base coat clear coat. usually how it works is this. do your body work if neccecery. then prime it, block sand it and prime it again. after the second prime you sand it. apply your first coat of base to the car, wait 10-15 minutes for it to "flash" (look dull not wet) then add another coat of base. two coats of base color is usually all you need, sometimes three. after that flashes off wait about 20minutes and appply the first coat of clear coat. same thing, wait 10-15 for it to flash off and apply another coat. Two coats will usually do it for clear coat for if it is put on too heavy it will start to peel and come off. Granted this is the basic idea of painting newer cars with two stage paints. and unless its changed in three years(which i doubt) this is how they still do it.
  • bigfurbigfur Member Posts: 649
    Then you bake it at about 180degree for half an hour for it to dry. pull it outta the paint booth make sure it looks ok, then you start the wet sanding adn buffing to make it look perfect.
  • mrdetailermrdetailer Member Posts: 1,118
    Happened recently on my father's car. I went to an auto paint supply store and got 3M General Adhesive Remover. Kleen Strip Surface Prep, and 3M Tar, Sap and Wax Remover would also probably work as well. I got about most of it off with a lot of hand rubbing. Then I used Meguiars' Dual Action Cleaner polish to finish the job. Meguiars Swirl Remover is less abrasive, but should do almost as well. Then I re waxed. Looked absolutely clean.
  • caramocaramo Member Posts: 93
    After an intense emotional discussion regarding a close friends problems, I backed up my car right into a post, smack in the middle of the bumper. Her husband said he'd pay for damage, since I was there trying to help with a difficult situation. Took my car to our body shop, and they recommended replacing bumper, possible hidden damage, multiple areas needing repainting, etc. etc. ad nauseum. Total estimate over $1,400.

    Well, my own inspection after I had calmed down leads me to believe the bumper won't need replacing, no visible cracking or anything, so I spoke with Dent-Pro about the chips and scratches, and their estimate is $203. That I can live with.

    Maybe I'll regret this down the line, but it seems to me like the car really pretty much bounced back into place (5mph safety bumper and all that). . .

    Anyone else have a similar situation with the new plastic bumpers? Do you think I'm making a mistake if I only take care of the obvious cosmetic problem if I can't see potential other problems?
  • jwilson1jwilson1 Member Posts: 956
    That process explanation was the piece I was missing. I'm going to try to get to East Coast Sports Car this weekend to start getting some names.

    Take care, Joe
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    process is still about the same as I saw it.

    you get too much paint (or clear) on at the same time, as bigfur mentioned, you get the big round globs known as "orange peel". also shows up if the paint mix is not kept well mixed.
  • bigfurbigfur Member Posts: 649
    ACTUALLY...(god i sound like a know it all) orange peel is when you put the clear on too dry. when you put it on too thick and it starts to sag we just called them a "run". you get orange peel...count on a few hours of wet sanding and buffing, lots and lots and lots of buffing. ok enough of that bringing back bad memories...im gonna have nightmares tonight. later all
  • sddlwsddlw Member Posts: 361
    swschrad, bigfur, thanks for the clarifications. I just got back from Baja and am catching up with things. One question: the flash coat process sounds like a good process for high throughput body shops, but isn't there an advantage to let each coat cure and then polish it smooth before the next? What about painting custom and show cars, the exotics and restored classics?

    The reason I ask is that the shop we use, which does a huge amount of business with the collector and show car people, insist on having a car for a minimum of 1 week, even for rather minor work. The reason (as best as I remember) was that they insist on 24 hours and polishing between coats, with multiple coats of paint. I've seen some really great restored classics there that have been in process for weeks.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    these guys want each coat to chemically cure almost completely before moving on. maximum strength. bet their work doesn't come off in a driving rain ;)

    that's how you do it if time and money are no object, all right... and you have plenty of space to store all those vehicles... or in their case, the two or eight that they can do a week, whatever their capacity is.

    I strongly suspect they are at the top end of the price scale, even if only because they don't have the volume that the neighborhood fender shop has, and still have to amortize all their expenses across income like the rest of us.

    bet if you look at their clearcoat jobs, it's like seeing a perfect (pick_color) image of yourself in a mirror at the bottom of a deep pool of perfect water, with not a ripple on the surface.
  • sddlwsddlw Member Posts: 361
    Yeh, their work is pretty nice ;-)

    ..... I once had to wait 6 weeks to get the car in. But it was worth it. In all the times we have used them, and all the years we have had the cars after they did their work, we've never seen any evidence of masking, or differential fading, chipping, or oxidation. You'd never know it wasn't all original paint.

    On average, for the occasional fender bender kind of work we have had done, they come in about 50%-100% higher than the other bids we have obtained for insurance. But we have always insisted on them, and they have always found a way to work it out with the insurance companies.
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