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Ford's new 5-20 oil

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Comments

  • vwracervwracer Member Posts: 90
    Everybody seems to think FORD now requires 5W20 to increase gas milage. My 2002 F250 owners manual says 5w20 at 5000 mile changes. 3/4 ton and larger trucks are not required to meet any CAFE numbers. So if FORDs only reason to use 5w20 is for better gas milage then why would they require 5w20 on a 3/4 ton truck that isn't required to meet CAFE numbers?
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    Possible that they are trying to standardize on a certain wt oil..
    but you have a good point.
    Personally I believe they have a much larger emphasis (requirement) on gas mileage than they do on engine longevity, most consumers these days don't keep vehicles forever and they know it (they push leases pretty heavy every time I've talked to them.) I am probably out on a limb here but I really do like to keep vehicles for a long time, has cost me much less over the last several years all vehicles considered. After a few years of the newer lighter oils I will see how engines have done and will re-evaluate, but for now, I'm siding with my experience. Time will tell I'm sure. This topic is doin good!
    I'm all ears folks
    Rando
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    I've even dumped in a bottle of STP or similar. New oils have to have reduced zinc because of catalytic converters--- so the idea of going to a 10W40 as cars hit the 150K mark or so is not a bad one.
  • vwracervwracer Member Posts: 90
    only had the 3/4 ton 3 weeks now so I don't have many miles. My thought now is to run 5w20 through warranty period and then re-evaluate the situation when more info is available. Your opinions will be considered.

    david
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    I really think the peanut butter and sewing machine oil example is a good one to illustrate a principle to someone who has no idea what we are talking about ... but it goes too far. For example, no one is advocating dumping grease or 95W140 gear oil in their 7,500 RPM 4-cylinder car.

    The new 5W20 oils were designed for mileage and while I'd use them during the warranty period, I'd never let them go past the 4,000 mile mark ... semi-synthetic or not.

    I know that early multi-viscosity oil formulations were prone to forming sludge ... especially 10W40 ... but that was a while ago and the stuff should flow essentially like a 10W30 in the cold. I don't see how you could damage an engine by using it. 20W50 and 30W maybe, but not 10W40 ... which used to be thought of as a rather thin oil.

    Rando, there had to be something wrong with that motor of yours. dino oil, changed every 5,000 miles with the cheapest filter available should see an engine well past the 100,000 mile mark. Even 5W30 should have kept it alive much longer than that. Did it go slowly or all at once? Any signs of trouble? I assume you got one of GM's bad apples ... and that's a shame. I used to be a big Chevy man. <:^(

    --- <b>Bror Jace
  • tboner1965tboner1965 Member Posts: 647
    I believe that with the new Fords, some Mazdas and Hondas that are recommending 5W20 have closer tolerances and may actually be better served by the lighter weight oil until...

    ...they get older. As the parts wear, the gaps would grow.

    Wouldn't this cause lower oil pressure at operating temps?

    If so, you could/should move to a 5W30 at that point.

    Just thinking and wondering out loud.

    TB
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    Mark Salem runs one of the largest independent garages in Phoenix and is a practicing mechanic. I think he's stated that he's seen modern engines injured by running too heavy an oil.


    I live in St. Louis, not Phoenix, so I can't vouch for his shop. I do know he seems quite knowledgeable on his radio show.


    Again, this is not to state that I believe that 5W20 is anything other than an attempt to squeeze .1 mpg at the expense of 50,000 of engine life. There's a big difference between 10W40 and 5W20.


    http://www.salemboysauto.com/default.htm

  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    Bror,
    that motor just started ticking one morning when the wife cranked it up (not a particularly cold one either and we have a garage), she called me from work and told me that she noticed the sound as soon as the engine started, no noise at all the day before. I agree, probably just statistics NOT in my favor this time.
    Tboner,
    Theoretically as the engine wears and all the tight clearances loosen up the pressure indicated at the top of the motor WOULD decrease over time, but it would not show up if the pressure sensor is lower on the block close to the filter, at that point it would stay about the same over the life of motor. I have never been able to figure out if the oil pressure is sensed before or after the filter, and the filter bypass would make it difficult to use a differential to tell when the filter is getting stopped up. Your right though, if we could tell when we have "worn in the motor enough" that would be when to start accomodating that aspect.
    Csandste mentioned the decreased zinc in the newer oil (I also read that somewhere else wish I could remember where) which is decreased to make catalytic converters last longer, that zinc is an engine wear protection componant too.
    I think that manufactures these days are really under the gun as for increasing the CAFE ratings, they really push leases as much as possible, and more and more people only keep the vehicle for a few years and then trade. It is easy for someone to buy an older vehicle after it was leased and then if it dies early they can always blame the previous owners for possible neglect. Fewer people are keeping the vehicle for 10+ years anymore and those people are the ones that really need to read topics like this one.
    Anybody found any NEW oil composition comparisons?
    Good morning everyone
    Rando
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    post Ilsac 2/3 comparisons on his web site? I thought that Ilsac 2 had worse protection than ILSAC 1, but that ILSAC 3 was an improvement in both sludge and wear.
  • tboner1965tboner1965 Member Posts: 647
    My old 79 Fairmont 3.3L I6 had the sensor at the top of the block, FWIW.

    I'm trying to remember if my Contour has a sensor up there. There are fittings in the head for this, as the Vortech supercharger kit uses them 8^)

    TB
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    csandste, I think there are good reasons NOT to use significantly heavier oils like 20W50 and the straight weights (mileage, mostly) but I just can't see any real problems by going one grade heavier ... or maybe even two. I just try to steer kids away from using the straight 40 and 50 weights they come across now and then. What 60s muscle cars used to run decades ago are not good choices for today’s performance engines.

    Rando, I still think you got a bad motor ... not sure the odds of that coming from GM these days. I doubt 10W40, 15W40, 20W50 would have held it together.

    As for lower levels of zinc, this started with the SJ classification. I had first read about this on use.net forums but I've seen it confirmed in a number of articles since then. Oils normally have about 1 to 1.5% ZDDP in them with the high-performance oils having even more (2+%) but Mobil 1 has 0.75% last time I looked at their MSDS.

    --- Bror Jace
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    <<I think that manufactures these days are really under the gun as for increasing the CAFE ratings, they really push leases as much as possible, and more and more people only keep the vehicle for a few years and then trade.>>

    While I don't understand many of the technical aspects dealing with the composition of the motor oil (actually I do but hate getting so technical on these boards), I doubt very much that your above statement is why they switched to the 5W-20 oil. The reason delaerships push leases is simple. they make mor money. They sell someone more car then they can normally afford plus they get the car back in good shape after 3-4 years. And then sell it again to someone else at an inflated price. heck of a concept.

    Doesn't anyone else see the trend that has been developing over the past decade. Oil is being made thinner. many of you pointed out that you used to use 20W-40, then 10W-40 then 10W-30 and now 5W-30. So isn't it natural as engines have improved and now have tighter tolerances, a thinner oil is needed to properly lubricate them. How legitimate would an auto manufacturer be if the engines failed at 100,000 miles? How have Honda and Toyota built there reputation? By building engines that fail after 75,000 miles? I don't think so.

    Change is good guys. Use the 5W-20 if the manual recommends it.
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    I read it in Automotive Engineering in last Feb Issue. I also think its common knowledge-but what is common??
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    I actually think they are almost up against a wall on the issue probably. I am sure that technology has improved lubrication oil over the years and 10w30 is better than it used to be, but it is still 10w30. Metal surfaces still need a strong enough film of oil between them to avoid rubbing. Thin oil is just reducing the fluid resistance to flow, better for gas mileage but worse for protection. I also believe that the mfg recommended oil change interval getting longer over the years is also intended to help with decreasing the amount of used oil that needs to get recycled. I will believe the manufacturer is looking out for engine longevity when they give a factory warranty (for the engine) of 100k and specify 5w20 oil with 7500 mile change interval to get it there. I agree with Dtownfb that leases make more money for the dealerships, but manufacturers know that there is a corresponding decrease in people that own a vehicle long term.
    I keep thinking that some engine design engineer has a "secret" version of the owners manual that says "after warranty flip to page 100.....then says "now, to make your vehicle last longer...
    I probably am not making any converts here, but as for my vehicles, I care more for engine longevity than any incremental gas mileage savings the light oil gives me (I only believe in thickening up during the summer anyway, and after at least 50-75k miles minimum as well)
    You know we could all start up an engine oil consulting group for the major manufacturers,
    we would develop a 5w-20-50wyni oil (wyni "when you need it")
    Hear from y'all soon
    Rando
  • ygriegaygriega Member Posts: 18
    Seems to be making sense. The only driver for a 20 wt. motor oil is CAFE. My 2001 Ford Explorer
    manual "recommends" 5W20, and like a lot of folks I couldn't find it--and didn't want to. The 302 V8 pushrod in my Explorer is the paradigm of the low-tech reiprocating engine. No way am I gonna run
    sewing machine/gun oil in this old warhorse.
    I changed to Mobil One 5W30 at 2000 miles and change every 3000 with a Motorcraft filter. If 5W30 syn isn't thin enough, then what is?
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    For MATURE engines I BARELY think 10w30 does the job and only during winter (mild winter I agree I live in central NC)
    During the heat of summer The 10w30 pours like water at room temp (room is hot during summer folks, go with it)
    That 302 YGRIEGA mentioned has been around a long time, so has the 350 Chevy (4.3 Chevy same basic design), I almost think that the mfg'rs would have increased oil-pressure which would work well with thinner oils but doesn't look like they have gone that way, seems like if they are making tolerances closer supposedly requiring thinner oil, that they would also be sealing seams/seals and gaskets better which would allow a little higher pressure to help the thinner oil out...anyone got any info on that?
    Rando
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    You are wasting good money, but importantly the time needed to change the Mobil 1 every 3K. You could at least compromise and throw on a new filter every 3K and that's overkill. A syn oil can protect to the level of one grade higher viscosity, which means 30 wt protects to the level of a 40 wt. Why not go with 10W-30? It still pours down to (I think) -55F.
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    Why have the auto manufacturers switched to 5W20? Because of CAFE standards and the pressures to reduce their fleet fuel consumption. I see no other reason. As oil thins, it loses its ability to protect metal surfaces. Even synthetics are not immune from this.

    Mechanics who know such things know that the clearances have not tightened up ... in fact some are actually greater now than they were a decade or more ago ... and they certainly didn't tighten up on EVERY model Ford and Honda sell in one model year.

    And the car companies don't really car if people get 'only' 100-150,000 miles out of their motor. Personally, I keep cars a long time and then sell them to people I know so that amount of durability simply isn't enough.

    If it were me, I'd use the stuff in winter, during the warranty period and then switched to something heavier like 5W30 for the summer and once I'm out of warranty.

    Is there anyone out there who thinks this 5W20 stuff was introduced for any other reason other than CAFE and give some REAL information on why they believe this? "Trust the auto companies, they know what's best for you and your car" isn't convincing me one bit.

    --- Bror Jace
  • knapp3knapp3 Member Posts: 112
    I changed the 5W20 Motorcraft oil in my Ford Escape myself today for the 1st time. The oil had run 4,000 miles. I emptied the container of the engine oil before removing the filter. That oil poured like water and the bottom of the pan was relatively clean. Then I took off the filter. I dropped the slippery little devil, luckily into the container and not the garage floor. A lot of the filter's oil spilled out. Boy, what a difference! That oil was noticeably blacker and thicker. It didn't pour as quickly either. Not sure what the significance is, other than the FL-820 filter seemed to be doing a good job.
  • bigcompactbigcompact Member Posts: 33
    I just took my Focus in for a 10,000 mile service, and the receipt shows that they used a 5w-30 motor oil.
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    you are free to use 5W-30 oil. Can you prove they used it???
  • bigcompactbigcompact Member Posts: 33
    ...is the receipt. Should I need more proof?
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    .
  • bigcompactbigcompact Member Posts: 33
    Isn't that what I said?
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    You said you have a receipt. I assumed it was for the oil change and I wasn't certain it actually said 5W-30 on the receipt. That's cool.
  • vwracervwracer Member Posts: 90
    Are you sure they used 5w30 or could there be the possibility of a typing error on the receipt? I would personally ASK the service manager to explain.
  • ygriegaygriega Member Posts: 18
    Good grief! If all else fails, give the service manager a polygraph. Talk about splitting hairs....
    One man's opinion: Change the oil in your vehicle
    YOURSELF. I may be wasting good money with my anal 3000 mile syn changes, but I know exactly what's in my engine. Hey, it makes me happy.
    Okay?
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    Gee, 6 messages questioning whether or not the dealership used 5W-30 instead of 5W-20. Esp. when bigcompact states in his original post that "the receipt shows that they used a 5w-30 motor oil".

    I think this topic can die now.
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    Too bad we have to wait a year now till football starts again,
    We better now?
    Good afternoon
    Rando
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    For anyone who's interested, I saw Valvoline 5W20 All-Climate motor oil at the Walmart in Saratoga Springs, NY over the weekend. I also saw Chevron 5W30 and 10W30 conventional oils (previously unavailable in this area) so they must be making changes to their automotive product line ... at least in some stores. So, you might want to check the stores in your area for the new Valvoline.

    --- Bror Jace
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    Looks like they have what AC filters that are left on markdown..the Supertech filters are changing packaging...the filter for my truck ST3980 now is painted black and new box says it is enhanced with synthetic fiber and has higher efficiency...your right, they may have put new people in charge of AUTO section???
    Maybe they been readin Edmunds?????
  • opera_house_wkopera_house_wk Member Posts: 326
    I buy late model high milage cars (100K) and find that 20W-50 gets me over the 200K mark easily without problems. I also change oil 5 times a year(I drive a lot)with low cost oil. I have been doing a study on used oil filters. To my surprise, I have found that when removed these still have a lot of filtering capacity left and there is no large collection of dirt or gunk. To make the story short, you just don't get that much filtering in a small case. Changing oil often is the only way to get the dirt out. My preference for an older engine would be for a diesel rated oil, to better handle bearing slap, like Rotella 15W-40.

    Hello to Saratoga Springs. I left 20 years ago, but never sold my house near there. Always come for the races in August.
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    I need reliability on long trips, good milage, and oil changes once a year. Your mode wouldn't work for me.
  • vwracervwracer Member Posts: 90
    stoped a Autozone today and they had Motorcraft oil 5w20 senthetic blend for $1.99 a quart.

    Does anyone know who makes this MOTORCRAFT brand oil?
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    I noticed in this week's papers, all the auto stores were advertising 5W-20 at the same price as the other motor oils. It will make it much easier for people to change their own motor oil.

    RE; opera_house_wk: The reason there is no gunk or in the filters is you change the motor oil so frequently. If it works for you, go for it. I use what the manual says and change it evry 5000 miles. I would do 7500 miles but my driving lately ahve been a mixture of highway and city.
  • opera_house_wkopera_house_wk Member Posts: 326
    I opened up a filter from a car that had gone way over a year without an oil change. The oil was thick and black. I changed the oil and filter and only drove it for two weeks. That oil had turned absolutely black. The next oil was only a golden brown at 1500 miles. I believe that this first oil filter to be a good example of an extreme case. Still, that filter when it was opened up had no build up on it that would indicate it was any different than other low mileage filters.
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    I have one car where next month the oil and filter will be one year old. About 5000 miles on this oil and filter so far. Oil on dipstick still amber and analysis will show (I am fairly certain) that the oil is fine for continued use. I will cahnge it next though. Why will it be fine. Two reasons, synthetic and running the engine for 10 miles minimum every time I start it.

    The color, even if jet black, is not necessarily an indicator of poor oil/lubrication.. Probable but not always.
  • opera_house_wkopera_house_wk Member Posts: 326
    immediately, I assume there were a lot of deposits coating the engine. Let's call them oil jell. I would also think that the detergents in the oil might be used up. Just trying to get the car off to a good start. This car was a repo and then was in storage for 4 months. Before that, one would expect that oil changes were the last thing on the persons mind. I have just changed the oil again at 3,000 miles. Only changed 4 out of the 5 quarts and not the filter. I had no reason to believe that my Super Tech filter was at the end of its life. Years back, I worked with diatomatious filters for EDM oil. Overnight this horrible black fluid would would turn sparkling clear. Another poster talked about how he used to buy reclaimed oil at 10 cents a quart and said he thought it was just filtered. Sounds like a good science experiment. Maybe I could join adc100 and run Mobile 1 for 200k except filter it now and then.
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    dtownfb, as for costs, they vary widely. They can even vary from Walmart to Walmart in the same region. I've seen Mobil 1 for $4.49 per quart in one store and $3.79 for the same one-quart container in another Walmart about 30 miles away. One store has a brand of dino oil on sale for $1.20 per quart while another store has it for $1.68. It's just odd but it sure pays to shop around.

    In general, the semi-synthetic 5W20 oils (which I believe is all of them, depending on your definition of the word "synthetic") are now about the same price as the newer SL class of oils ... which are all "semi-synthetic" in that they are formulated with isomerized/hydrocracked crude oil stocks.

    --- Bror Jace
This discussion has been closed.