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Discussion On FWD Cars As Future Classics

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  • badtoybadtoy Posts: 368
    has little to do with whether or not the car will be a collectible (except in the case of a V12 Ferrari or 427 Cobra). Usually it's a combination of the brand name and styling. Even ugly Ferraris (yes, there are quite a few) don't go for that much money.

    It's sometimes hard to tell what will be a classic when the car is a current model -- familiarity breeds contempt. No one in their right mind would think a Citroen DS would be a classic, back when they were making them -- but they may very well turn out to be just that. The Mini-Cooper, on the other hand, had a racing record and the Cooper name, so even back then it was a safe bet that they would become collectible.

    Also, don't forget the big American FWDs -- the Toronado and Eldorado. The early models are already considered classics, and clean examples will continue to appreciate in value as they become more and more scarce.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 58,856
    I think you are an optimist, BT, on some of those cars you mentioned, because hey, the Citroen DS has had a lot of years to start getting "classic" and there's no sign of it yet. At least you can see Minis going up in value and generating lots of excitement at auctions. But a Citroen at a classic car auction pulls just about the same money year after year after year. And my friend has a mint '76 Eldo he can't sell for $8,500. If anything, FWD Eldo prices are dropping still (but pretty close to bottom, which should be about $7,500 for a nice one).

    But I do agree in principle, it's not the drivetrain that determines classic status

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  • badtoybadtoy Posts: 368
    I thought early Toronados would start bringing in decent prices (high 20s, low thirties) by now, if they were extra clean. All that speculation without a shred of hard evidence! Thanks for the correction, shifty.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 58,856
    Well, you could still be right, but it isn't looking good at this point, and really, if a car doesn't start to show some glamour after say 15 years, it may never.

    As a rule, only cars that really lit people up the day they were new (even non-car people) become true classics.

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  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    I like early Toros too but I sure wouldn't park one in my garage just for its appreciation potential. For one thing it's an Oldsmobile, an off-brand in the collector market. It's going to be extinct soon and that won't add any cachet. They've been surprisingly cheap for years and I don't think an extablished history like that usually changes.
  • badtoybadtoy Posts: 368
    I thought that's why the Toros would be collectible (much more so than the Eldo, although I thought the Eldo was a high-water mark of Mitchell styling, and much prettier than the Toro). I do know that it caused a sensation when it was first introduced -- I was a student in Chicago at the time, and everybody just went nuts. Here was a sleek, big American car with non-nonsense styling and a 130 mph top speed. The FWD just made it that much more exotic.

    speedshift: Intuitively, I don't agree with your contention that the Toro will be less valuable now that Olds has left the market -- in fact, I think it would make it MORE valuable. What do you think, shifty?
  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    I could be wrong but I'm sceptical because I've owned--and sold--four Olds.

    Three of them were really nice semi-collectibles, a '63 Starfire convertible, '65 Starfire hardtop and '68 Toronado. All were in excellent mechanical shape and had been detailed to look good. The buyer indifference to them was remarkable. No one I dealt with was dying to own an Olds. But if they'd been big block Impalas I'd have had to beat off buyers with a stick. Less car but more demand.

    The fourth Olds was a '90 Cutlass International Series coupe, also very nice but with no resale value, which I understand was typical of Olds even before GM pulled the plug.

    None of this bodes well for Olds values down the road.

    I think Olds is going to join the ranks of makes like Hudson, Nash and DeSoto. It wasn't a marketing disaster like the Edsel, or involved in scandal like the Delorean. Olds had some very good years into the late '80s but since then it's been downhill. The Toro will have more appeal than most Olds but there isn't enough magic to either name make Toronado a big collectible.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 58,856
    Yeah, I agree, most Olds will be just another orphan. Oh, it will certainly have those who love them and "collect" them, but as collectibles they will always be 2nd or 3rd tier----"mildly interesting to a select few". But the right year 4-4-2 with the right options might bring some money.

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  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    Right, maybe a '70 W-30 or a '69 Hurst Olds or I suppose one of the ultra-rare 3 deuce '66s.

    BTW there was a W-34 Toronado in 1970 with 455/400, upgraded Turbo-Hydramatic, GT emblems and striping.
  • badtoybadtoy Posts: 368
    Guess, after all the arm-waving, that GM actually did the right thing in killing off the brand.
  • http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=598783605


    Just incase that is already gone its a 93 daytona iroc r/t that just sold for $9,402.00. Acording to other people there were only 8 of these made not 300-400.


    Since I have starting looking around on the net, I am looking for a Shelby Daytona, I have discovered they do have a pretty decent following. They may not be in the same league as Mustangs and Camaros but its not just a few smucks either. You maybe able to pick up Shelby cars rightnow for $2500 all over the place, especially daytonas since they aren't very rare, but they aren't very old yet either. Give them another 10-20 years and if they don't all rust away they will be worth something if nothing else just because they are Shelbys.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 58,856
    I think that's the problem though. They aren't really "Shelbys" in the way people know Shelbys. They are a badge slapped on by Chrysler, so many people do not think these cars are worthy of the name :Shelby" since he didn't build them.

    Personally, I think you are being very optimistic about future value, since these cars have already had plenty of time to get valuable, or to start getting valuable. But they just sit there, behaving like used cars (that is, the older they are, the LESS they are worth--the opposite of most collectible cars).

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  • http://www.xmission.com/~dempsey/shelby/sheldodg.htm


    And there are really nice real dodge shelbys selling for $5k+ now.

  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,054
    ...is the Dodge Spirit R/T. There's info about it in the link DarkWolf posted. 2.2 Turbo III with 224 hp. 0-60 in 5.8 seconds.

    As for collectibility though, are there any FWD Mopars around yet that are old enough to be beyond the "used car" stage and into "collectible" stage? What was the first year for the 2.2 Turbo, anyway? 1984 or so? I know by 1985, it was available in just about every FWD car they made, so yeah, it's way too common. But the high-output versions (more than the Turbo I's 146 hp) didn't even appear until the late 80's.

    As for potential future Mopar collectibles, what about the Intrepid R/T?
  • "are there any FWD Mopars around yet that are old enough to be beyond the "used car" stage and into "collectible" stage?"

    I think the "real" Shelbys are just starting to get into the collectible stage but the regular turbos probably wont be worth anything for a long time if ever.
  • I had an 87 Sundance Turbo with the 2.2, it had great torquey engine. Sister had an 88 Lebaron with the 2.2, but had a Mitsubishi turbo that spooled a little faster.

    None will be collectible, but neither of us ever had any engine troubles.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 58,856
    Thank you wolf for figuring that out. I am constantly confused what with the less than wonderful nomenclature.

    I have to admit I'm pretty skeptical about these cars as collectibles.

    The collector car market differentiates sharply between what was built by Shelby/American and what was built by Shelby Automobiles.

    Scanning all the price guides, the only car I see that has even modest collectible car value seems to be the 1987 Shelby Charger. The rest are price just like used cars from the looks of it, and since these cars are getting on 17 years old with book values of $2,000 I really don't think they are going anywhere. The '87 Shelby Charger can go up to $4-5,000 in one book I looked at, so there might be some hope there. Still, that's a pretty modest price for what would have to be a show car, according to the price guide's standards.

    Lemme see what Manheim Gold Book says here.....okay, a 1986 Shelby Charger shows a show car at $1,800.

    Strange. Is there a substantial difference between 1986 and 1987?

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  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,054
    I can think of 2 things that would make the '87 more valuable. First, it was the last of the Shelby Chargers. Also, there weren't that many built...7,669 in 1986, and only 2,011 in 1987.

    1987 was the first year for the Turbo II engine, but according to my book, that engine was only available in the Daytona Shelby Z, which was K-based, not L-based (Omni/Horizon) like the Charger. The original, Turbo I, put out 146 hp, and was the standard Turbo that Chrysler used in just about everything. The Turbo II put out 174 hp, though. Maybe my book was wrong though...that engine might've been offered in the Charger Shelby.

    For '88, the Turbo II was available in the Shelby Daytona and Shelby Lancer. The Lancer was another car I liked. Even though just about anything based on the K-car was going to have some shortcomings, I thought the Lancer (and sister LeBaron GTS) were about as attractive as they got. That Lancer Shelby must've been a pretty hot little car.
  • Just screwing around on ebay over the last couple months looking for my daytona I have seen several ragged out beat to hell omni glh/glhs go for $1000-$1500 and I have seen people asking up to $6k for perfects ones. I am not sure how much they are actually getting though.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 58,856
    Yeah, that's always the problem, not just with these cars but any collectible. Asking prices are an exercise in First Amendment rights, that's about it.

    But really, if every major guide book in the world says a car isn't worth much, you have to treat that as credible information. And one sale at $6K, should it ever happen, does not constitute the market, just as one sale at $500 wouldn't.

    I'd say after looking around, that it is an erratic and rather small market and that it is going to stay that way. Sort of the Chrysler version of the Citroen Owners Club.

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