Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

mentoro · December 2005

Hi. I am soliciting some feedback about 8 passenger minivans. Right now I am looking at the Odyssey and Sienna. The option I am looking for is an All Wheel Drive 8 passenger minivan which I can't seem to find (Sienna has an AWD but it only comes in 7 passenger version). Anyone has any ideas or suggestions; be kind and share your research/experience? Thanks. :confuse:

jchan2 · December 2005

AWD 8 Passenger minivan? none. Sorry.

FWD should be fine in most conditions though. It depends on how bad your roads are. If they're really bad, just get the AWD.

sebring95 · December 2005

It's called a Tahoe or Suburban. I needed 8 passenger seating as well and really could have used the AWD. I decided to give up the AWD/4x4 and go with an Ody FWD. I do have other vehicles though when the weather gets really bad, so I'm not compromising much.

So far we've been alright but we plan accordingly. We have a couple very nasty roads that don't get cleared often. Plus our driveway is nearly a mile long and the first part is extremely steep. If you're not careful, you can hang a 4x4 on it. If I lived in town where the roads were generally cleared, I'd have no problems with a FWD Ody. In fact, I'd say a good set of snow tires with the stability and traction control would make this van go quite well. You'll run out of ground clearance on either Sienna or Ody before the deep stuff will stop you on normal roads.

So if you don't want to give up a little gas mileage (not much really, we had a Tahoe before the Ody) go for the van. Once the grandkids are out of carseats, we'll probably go back to a full-size SUV. Those sliding doors are great for getting kids in/out.

jchan2 · December 2005

True.
I wouldn't call the Tahoe a van though even though people use it like one.

mentoro · December 2005

Thanks to all who have responded. I just want the peace of mind with the AWD otherwise I am sure the FWD can handle Pittsburgh weather (some exceptions). One other option is the 8 seat Pilot although I have to go and take a look / test drive it to get a feel for the space it has. I really don't want to go with the full size SUV's (Expedition, Tahoe, Armada) as the wife doesn't want to drive something that big.
It is really a tough choice. With small kids its really difficult to replace the convenience of automatic sliding doors.
Please continue the discussion if any useful points can be made.

Thanks.

sebring95 · December 2005

Well the funny thing is....the Tahoe is smaller than the Ody. The Ody has a little tighter turning radius, but is overall a bit longer and within an inch or so on width. My wife actually preferred driving the Tahoe. I prefer the better handling of the Ody, but I like sporty vehicles. She's a bit more passive when it comes to driving.

Unless you're living/driving in rural pitt, either the Ody or Sienna with a set of snow tires would do terrific. Snow tires make a tremendous difference. I have Nokians on my Jetta and on ice I think I prefer it over my 4x4's.

hansienna · December 2005

Do you want just seating for 8 with seat/shoulder belts for all 8?
If so, either the Sienna or Odyssey.

But if you want a legitimate seat for each of the 8 people, the Sienna is the choice because the middle seat of the Odyssey is just a padded armrest between the 2nd row bucket seats.

An advantage of the Odyssey is that for only 7 people, the Odyssey 2nd row seats are more comfortable with the padded armrest that serves as a seat taken out than are any of the 2 seats of the 3 seat middle row of the Sienna since the Odyssey will have fold down armrests for both middle row passengers. None of the 3 genuine seats of the 2nd row of the Sienna has an armrest.

With the Sienna, you purchase the van with either 7 seats or 8 seats...but every seat is a legitimate seat and one is not a padded armrest. Each configuration has advantages.

jchan2 · December 2005

isn't a bad idea, but that third row isn't terribly big.

hansienna · December 2005

The Pilot feels cramped inside when compared to the Odyssey (or Sienna, Grand Caravan, Town & Country).

In addition to deficient 3rd row seating, the cargo space behind the 3rd row seating is TOO small. A minivan is the best configuration for interior space with reasonable fuel economy.

However, if a person MUST have AWD and seating for 8...while not needing cargo space, the Pilot would be the best choice.

My niece recently traded her Honda Passport (built by Isuzu) for a loaded Pilot. The Passport replaced a Mazda MPV that was an SUV...and it also had very tiny cargo space behind 3rd row seat while the Passport had seating for only 5. She and her husband have only 3 children ages 6, 10, and 12.

chisfu1 · December 2005

The Toyota Sienna also has AWD on their LE, XLE or Limited Edition lineup, so it will be much better than the Honda Pilot plus it has 20 percent better gas mileage. For eight persons vehicles, Sienna is still the best choice since its refinement and reliability records are better than the others.

jchan2 · December 2005

True but you cannot get AWD and 8 passenger seating together.

aaron_t · December 2005

What do you drive now that makes you think you need AWD? Around here, 5+ inches of snow generally cancels school depending on how the roads are affected and timing relative to rush hours. No school? Don't bundle up 6 kids and venture outside for a day. Really, AWD is overrated for 90% of AWD owners.

hansienna · December 2005

My niece has an 8 passenger 1996 Astro AWD and loves it...except for poor gas mileage on the road where her father-in-law's Suburban got better gas mileage. :confuse: The AWD is most appreciated October to April when it snows.
Her sister-in-law has a 2005 Odd EX with 8 passenger seating but it is much more difficult to access the 3rd row seat in either the Odd EX or Suburban. The Astro has more cargo space behind the 3rd row than the Odd EX but less than the Suburban.

macakava · December 2005

If Astro/Safari were be continued to be built, GM would be much closer to bankruptcy! GM realized that these 30+ year designs were no match for the modern minivans(i.e. better alternatives) and made a good business ddecision. These drive like buses/unwieldy big boats, devoid of any steering/road feel.

Having been left with no choice but an Astro for 2 past rentals at Enterprise, I can see why GM let them die peacefully!

st_moyer · December 2005

Call me strange, but I have a hard time justifying buying a new van or even one that is just a few years old. I have two Toyota Previas; bought both for around 4k each. Original owners, all paperwork. The cost of owning these (factoring in occasional repair) is significantly lower than a new van. I have no payment, and how much can a 10 year old van depreciate in one year? Even if I have to put in $1k a year in repairs (which is unlikely), it is much less than 12 payments at $250 each. The key is to avoid one that someone is trying to get rid off because of problems. The only problem is that older vans lack the new gadgets that are a necessity for some. This is a different approach, but can be smart.

hansienna · December 2005

And my niece prefers the 8 passenger Astro AWD over the 8 passenger Odd EX where the 8th seat is a padded armrest. Much easier to access 3rd row seat in the Astro and there is MUCH more cargo space in the Astro than her sister-in-law's Odd EX.

She has closely compared the 2 vehicles.
She has no interest in drag racing up the on ramps BUT the AWD was very nice for her teen age daughter to drive out of the school parking lot when the snow and ice was stopping all other vehicles.

BTW, my niece has owned a Honda Civic for many years and likes it as a fuel efficient run-around-town car. Her husband prefers the same age Olds Cutlass with Quad 4 engine over the Honda Civic for his 100 mile daily commute.

soderholmd · December 2005

Ladies and Gents,

Went perusing three days ago for a minivan replacement for our 99 Windstar (which has been very bulletproof BTW). On our van we wanted heated leather, DVD, Good stereo, power sliders, 4 wheel discs with ABS and Stability control at a minimum. Started at the Honda dealer;

Honda-

Pompous dealers - acted like I was doing them a favor for checking out their van and asking for a testdrive. The powertrain of the van was excellent with some nice interior details and tricks. Really liked the fold down split 3rd seat. We took out an EXL and I liked driving it. It seemed to handle well. I asked about DVD and was told its available as a 1700.00 option. Total price would be around least 33K and they sell close to retail, hhhhmmmmmmmmm.

Toyota-

Dealer experience similar to Honda - whats with these guys? The Toyota we drove was an XLE to get all the options we wanted. Around 34K. Powertrain was nice, not as snappy as the Honda. Van rode very smooth and quiet, but handling was very soft and soggy - didn't feel as buttoned down as the Honda. Tight turning circle, nice seats, and good stereo system. Still no DVD at this price?

Saturn-

Dealer treated me like a guest. He couldn't do enough for me! I Asked for a test drive and he gave me the van for the day........WOW. I took out a loaded Relay 3. Every option on the list except all wheel drive. Including Onstar, DVD, Heated leather, 17 inch wheels, Power sliders, Awesome stereo, 4 wheel disc, ABS and stability, cool reverse sensing system, rail storage system, trailer package Driver info center, beautiful gauge package and more. Van drove great, more firm than the Toyota and less than the Honda. Driving position was excellent. Seats in all positions were large and comfy (as were all 3 vans). Powertrain was competent and smooth, although with noticibly less oomph than the other 2. It was far from lacking in power though. Kids loved the DVD! Only "downside " is the rear seats - they dont fold back and flat as the others, but can form a flat load floor none the less. Went back to the dealer and he said the MSRP was 30,700.

I wasn't sure if the difference in price was worth it. He then said BTW they now have 8k off the price. WOW!! Loaded for 22K - Youre kidding me!? Wife signed the papers and it's in the garage now. We're very happy!

All the vans were nice, but value wise between the 3 - no contest - and I found I prefer the SUV look vs. the Rocket boy styling of the other 2. Great experience - I'll keep you updated. Thoughts?

jipster · December 2005

I'm not going to call you stange st-moyer. I use to be the same way(no...not strange) , frugal with my purchases.It is a smart approach though.

I had a 1979 Olds Cutlass Supreme I bought used(was in excellent condition)in 1990(roughly) for $1,500. Sold it 7 years later for $800. Had almost no problems. Replaced a few wear items, starter, tires, battery, brakes, exhaust...was extremely reliable.

On our new minivan purchase, we were going to buy a 3 or 4 year old vehilce. But, for 5k more than the used minivans we were looking at, we were able to buy a new 04 Mazda MPV.
If it starts when you turn the key, and brings you home safely...well...everything else is just icing on the cake.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to ALL members and hosts of Edmunds.

artgpo · December 2005

I had a 2003 Olds Silhouette, a step-sister to your Relay. The Olds rode nice and was reliable but was a poorly constructed rattle trap. Consumer Reports said about the same for the 2005 model it tested in March (I thought it was a Relay). I don't care what you pay for a van. These days a vehicle should be well constructed with good fit and finish. If Kia can do it with their 2006 Rio why can't GM on a $23,000 van. One other thing: I hope you are planning on keeping this Relay for a long time otherwise you are going to find out how worthless it is as a trade. My '03 Silhouette cost $29,000 new but current trade in is around $9,000. You really do get what you pay for.

In October I purchased an '06 Odyssey EX-L. I cannot say my shopping experience was like the one you describe. The Honda and Toyota dealers were both friendly and helpful. The Honda salesmen (I dealt with three over three months) all knew the product inside and out. They were grateful for my business. Sure, I paid $28,750 for my new van but I got ABS, brake assist and electronic brake force distribution. Also, stability control and head curtain airbags plus a sunroof. In three years my Odyssey will still be worth $17,000+

Good luck and enjoy the relay. It should prove reliable.

jipster · December 2005

"Thoughts?"

Hey, you're happy...so why care what we think?

But, since you asked, it sounds like you got a very good vehicle at a great price. Don't think you can ask for more than that. Congratulations!

I too like the SUV look in the GM vans over the traditional minivan look. My brother has the Pontiac Montana with Onstar and he loves it. The Onstar system is pretty cool...and is a nice saftey feature as well. Rear seats that fold flat is not really a big deal.

jchan2 · December 2005

You have got to be kidding me.

$22,000 for a loaded Relay, despite all its bugs, is still a good value.

And in my case it would leave a good chunk of change for other purposes...

I would be happy with a Relay too if it came into my garage for $22,000.... Not so sure about a Sienna coming in at $38,000 though, or an Odyssey coming in at $33,000.

I wonder how much extra Buick wants for the Terraza after all applicable rebates.

Was your Relay a 2005 or 2006 model?

hansienna · December 2005

CONGRATULATIONS on your new minivan. Agree with jipster that you're happy, why care about what others think.

Your experience with arrogant Honda and Toyota dealers was less satisfying than mine when I have looked at the Odyssey and Sienna.
FORGET about depreciation. Unless you want to trade in a year or two, you will incur less depreciation than had you purchased the $ 33K Odd or $ 34K Sienna.
Lastly, your experience is a vivid reminder of why people purchase a minivan other than a Sienna or an Odyssey.

just4fun2 · December 2005

It sounds like you got a great deal! You also have the best safety feature offered by any company, Onstar. My niece was involved in a head-on crash, air bags went off, but she wasn't hurt. Onstar ask if she was ok or needed an ambulance, she said that she was ok, but the driver of the other car needed medical assistance right away, so Onstar might have saved the day for that person.

Enjoy your Relay, you are one smart person.

soderholmd · December 2005

The Relay is an 05'model with everything on it. It seems very solid, the driveline very smooth and the seats are very comfortable. I'm impressed with the overall package and am ecstatic about the onstar! It really brings peace of mind knowing my wife has it with the kids in the vehicle. Why other companys don't offer anything similar is beyond me..........If this van were an import it would list for 35K! We're very happy!

artgpo · December 2005

Excuse me but I had a $33,000 GM van (MSRP) and it depreciated to $9,000 in three years. The $28,000 Honda is still worth $15,000+ in trade after three years. Most people do not keep cars more than five years. That is an easy statistic to verify.

As I had previously posted, I did an opinion survey (for which I was paid)in October, 2004 for minivans. At the time I still owned my GM van with no intention of trading. I drove a fully loaded model of each of the following , all with less than 500 miles: Freestar, Relay, Town and Country and Odyssey. There was simply no comparison between the Odyssey and the other three. It was just superior in every way. The test drive was the catalyst in my buying an '06 Odyssey. The Relay had the next best ride but is squeaked and rattled just as did my two year old van. I too had Onstar and kept paying for the service after the one free year was up.

When I decided to buy a new van and started shopping every dealer told me that the GM rebates would come up and bite me and it did. A $22,000 van is going to depreciate the same percentage as the same model without the rebate. So, if the rate is 40% the first year you would lose $8,800 when you drove it off the dealer's lot. The depreciation is based on the selling or market price not the MSRP.

I did not come on here to demean someone's purchase but we WERE asked for our opinion.

macakava · December 2005

"There was simply no comparison between the Odyssey and the other three. It was just superior in every way. The test drive was the catalyst in my buying an '06 Odyssey."

AGREE 100%!

My almost 100 minivan rentals have included a few Terrazas, Uplanders, and Montanas, from which the Relay is a derivative. These are absolutely not in the same performance(handling, road feel, energetic feeling, etc) class as the Ody.

The appearance of these vehicles are "spooky" to me. It appears to look like a mixed breed (SUV and minivan) that has gone wrong - it turned out to be bad/wierd looking(i.e. like a ware wolf). It does not know what it is exactly. Maybe the Astec designer had some influence in the design??

Since then I have been choosing the DGC/T & C over these GM vehicles in the rental car lots, when Siennas are not available. The DGC/T & C is a better perfoming vehicle than these GM minivans.

GM and Ford are trailing the minivan segment in a very embarassing way. Besides car rentals, GM is probably moving these mostly to GM employees or retirees at employee discounts. GM should give up the minivan segment - it may help keep them away from bankruptcy longer. Kervokian's recent sale of a few million GM shares is a good sign. Stay tuned!

hansienna · December 2005

The Sienna had better performance than the Odyssey...which surprised me after reading the glowing reports about the Odyssey. I have NOT driven any minivan but the Astro, Grand Caravan, Odyssey, Town & Country, and Sienna.
The Sienna LE (cloth) interior looks and feels superior to the Odyssey EX (cloth) and GC SXT (cloth) and is also the quietest of all.

Being a Toyota, it also has the best reliability.
The Astro has THE most cargo space and has the easiest access to the 3rd row of the 8 passenger vans and the 4.3L V6 had the MOST torque of any minivan. It is a real TRUCK with truck durability but also has the truck feeling. People who prefer trucks prefer the Astro.

soderholmd · December 2005

No doubt you two have valid opinions. But to say that the Toyota and Honda are "Clearly Superior in every way" is a misnomer to the highest degree. :confuse:

My Relay is very tight and rattle free. I live in Minnesota and the Roads are very rough. If it had rattles, I would know! Also the 2 Japanese vans have eclectic dashboards, like someone was trying to be too artistic with them. The Relay has a simple and elegant dash - very pleasing to look at and use. The Relay's interior is also equal to the others in ride quietness - It's hard to even hear tire noise, and seat comfort with the 4 captains chairs is best of all.

Does the Odyssey have a better drive train - Yes, but only because it has 40 HP more. It is not smoother and it's transmission is not superior. The Toyota handles very slushy and I would not feel very good in abrupt avoidance maneuvers in it.

Spec to Spec, my van took a 12-14 K less chunk of change out of my pocketbook than the Toyota and Honda- thats not chump change for most people! We're talking real dollars! And what is the Toy or Honda doing 12-14K better than the Relay? I really can't think of anything for that cash outlay? I couldn't give a rip about depreciation, I keep my vehicles 7-10 years and replace them.

Given that, I still think the Honda and Toyota are great vehicles, but not for the extra cash that dealers demand for them. :confuse:

artgpo · December 2005

Well, we each are entitled to buy what our purse and taste permits. My Silhouette was quiet for the first couple of thousand miles then the rattles and squeaks began. There is no way the four speed tranny with that engine is as smooth or refined as the Odyssey. My wife, as far from a car expert as Pluto is from Earth, noticed it on the test drive and continues to say how different the two were. In my opinion panel back-to-back test drives last year it was immediately evident. The Relay is much smaller than the other vans as well. Basically it is an eight year old design with a new nose.

BTW: GM announced that the Doraville, GA assembly line where the Relay, Outlander, Montana SV6 and Terraza are made is closing. GM will assemble its next generation of minivans elsewhere.

jchan2 · December 2005

could be good for bargain minded shoppers like me as when they stop production, deals will be all over the place.

just4fun2 · December 2005

You, sir, have realized that there comes a point where people just pay too much in the name of better quality. The 12-14K you saved over the vans will more than off-set any resale issues later on. The so called refined 5 speed transmission offered elsewhere means nothing if it doesn't hold up. Check the other boards and see the problems that these owners are having with that refined transmission. Some of those owners are on their 4-5? transmission replacement and want to dump their vans before 100K because they are concerned that they will be stuck paying 5k to replace the transmission out of their own pocket.

You saved more than 12-14k when you add the cost of financing and extra tax. Use your new Relay to haul all of that money you saved to the bank.

jchan2 · December 2005

Plus you can take that $12-$14K and park it in a CD earning 4% interest. SO really you came out REALLY ahead.

macakava · December 2005

We had a new 1996 top of the line Windstar that we purchased with a $8K rebate then. This gave us some many problems(not catastrophic until the final one; CEL came on on day 1) that it was at the dealer for warranty repairs at least every 2 months. I do maintain my family vehicles religiously (every 3K for oil/filter changes and 25K tranny oil changes). Then 2 years ago at 54.5K miles, it developed an engine knock that put the final nail in the coffin for it. Before there was also some tranny repairs as well.

Two years ago, I got our Ody and it has never been back to the dealer for any repair. At that time Ford was offerring $10K rebate on the Freestar and I would not touch it with a 10' pole. My wife, who is not a car person, instantly remarked how light and fun to drive the Ody was for its size compared to the Windstar and other minivans she had test driven.

The Ody performs superior mechanically to the domestics in everyway - acceleration, handling, road feel/connectedness, energetic, etc. Its VTEC engine, as it loves to rev, sounds so melodic as it delivers its high power and allows its competitors to smell its hot air while leading the pack in the straight and especially around corners and twisties. Try the same with the others(domestics), the engines sound thrashy, cacophony as if to say, "Don't push me, I am retired". Around corners and twisties, they lean like old foggies.

The Ody is a driver's vehicle for those who enjoy great driving dynamics. If you are not so inclined, then any other vehicle will suffice. No $10K rebate can replace its superior mechanical/driving performance for me.

artgpo · December 2005

"You get what you pay for" is really true for most products. The breakfast cereal sold in big bags for a lot less than the brand name box cereals just does not taste quite as good. Sure the DCX, GM and Ford vans may look nice and have some noteworthy features but they just don't have the same performance or overall fit and finish of most "imported" minivans. There is really no reason why our domestic brands can't get their act totally together. I don't want or like a lowest common denominator van. I prefer something with some build quality and a solid "thunk" when I gently close the doors. I have to give it to DCX for coming close because the rentals I have had were rattle and squeak free. They did not have good fit and finish nor are the powertrains as sophisticated.

I learned my rebate lesson on my Silhouette and that is save up front, lose at trade. I paid a little less for my '06 Odyssey EX-L with no rebates and it will be worth a whole lot more should I ever decide to trade it in.

just4fun2 · December 2005

I have heard it all before... I love my xxxx, it has better this and better that. Come back in 3-4 years and tell us all how it worked out. Back in 2002, people were singing the same praises about the Ody, then the other shoe dropped. Poor transmission design causing fluid circulation problems, sliding doors that didn't slide. They got what they paid for, an overpriced hyped van. Come back with 100K miles and tell us how wise it was to pay more.

soderholmd · December 2005

Sorry to hear about your Windstar, but any comparison to my 05' Relay is ridiculous and moot. They are worlds apart from each other. It's absolutely incredible to me that this stereotype of quality continues to haunt the american automotive industry in 05'-06' . The fact of the matter is that the americans (Chevy, Ford and Chrysler) are designing and building cars and trucks that are of equal quality to anything out there - including Toyota . Was this the case 5, 10 15 or 20 years ago? Absolutely not. Now days, you have a glut of excellent cars and trucks to pick from including all american brands. Ford has a showroom of excellent new vehicles, GM has made amazing strides in feel, driving experience and interior quality across their entire line and Chrysler has brought back retro cool in a big way, all while putting excellent quality into their vehicles .
The new set of GM minivans is a case in point. The look, feel, quality, driving experience and value is outstanding. Why pay 12-14k more for a comparably equipped import? I can tell you the reason - it's the same one why lemmings jump off cliffs - it's cool and chic to be in a Toyota or Honda these days, It's the thing to do. People perceive it as "cooler". It's cooler than a Ford, Saturn or Chevy. Yeah OK. It makes no sense to me.

It sounds to me like you guys needed to buy a nice quick comfortable midsize sedan for your "VTEC engine equipped, it loves to rev, sounds so melodic as it delivers its high power and allows its competitors to smell its hot air while leading the pack in the straight and especially around corners and twisties".If I want to drive like that, I'm not going to with the family in the minivan!

If I'm looking for "a driver's vehicle for those who enjoy great driving dynamics", I'm going to take out my 05' Focus ST or my CBR1000RR. If I want a safe, competent, comfortable, quiet DVD and Onstar equipped vehicle that does a great job hauling the kids dogs, wife and cargo, I'll take out my Relay! If you think the Odyssey or Toyota work 12-14K better and more efficiently than these vans than more power 2 ya! I still wonder what they do to make people think they are worth that much more, but to each their own! I've gotta go in my Relay to pick up my 14k and talk to my stockbroker. I think on the way back I'll stop at Target and buy 500.00 worth of Christmas stuff with my Target Gift card I received from Saturn when I bought my Van............

Bottom line is that all the companies MAKE GOOD CARS THESE DAYS. Pull off your brand blinders for a while and you might be able to see that too. I would not hesitate to buy from any car showroom these days - including american cars that I can get, in comparison to the imports, for a steal upfront............

macakava · December 2005

Besides my own driving impressions based on my Ody and the almost 100 minivan rentals I have done, you can look up any minivan comparo on any testing sources like C & D, R & T, etc and you would see the domestics at the bottom of the pile for performance. Ford and GM minivans fight for last place.

The GM minivans are practically the same as before. Nothing major has changed - not even the 3rd seat row can fold into the floor. GM had rebadged the previous minivans to look like a "mixed breed" of a SUV and a minivan to try to "fool" the buying public that it is a new design. Instead this mixed breed has gone wrong - it looks funny; it does not know what it is really. There is nothing mechanically new (engine, etc) to speak about.

GM - Bankruptcy is on your radar screen! Kevorkian just sold 12 million shares. Even though GM share has an attractive 10+% yield based on a dismally low $18+ current price, I will not buy because it is cheap, just like their minivans with rebates!

artgpo · December 2005

First, let me say that I think you are mistaken to believe that American vehicles have reached the Japanese level of quality. Sure, lots of American iron looks a whole lot more attractive than the bland Asian stuff but quality the same? I too have rented a bunch of DCX vans that are rattle free. Their fit and finish is no where close to the Odyssey or Sienna. The GM minis are at the bottom of the heap. An eight or nine year old design that was not too good when first introduced in 1997, it continues that way. The automotive press often cites the GM vans as what is wrong with the company. If Ford and DCX could get the van better and keep it updated why not GM? My '03 Silhouette had rotten fit and finish and sounded like it was assembled on a Monday after and a Friday before a holiday.

Have you ever attended a "GM Autoshow in Motion"? Every so often GM comes to town and sends out invitations to test drive every model in their line up. In addition, GM usually has a copy of all the competition to drive as well. I have attended three ASIM here in Dallas. Usually no one goes near the GM minivans...fact. Once you drive a GM and then the competition you go for the competition. Case in point: My daughter and I went last year and drove the small GM, Ford and Toyota pickup trucks. I have no need for a pickup by GM offered a "prize" to those who drove all three. Let me tell you, the Ford and GMs were about ten light years behind the Toyota in every way - ride, quality and fit and finish almost to the point of being crude in comparison.

I love this country and am a retired military member but I want the best for my dollar. Paying $21,000 for a van with an MSRP of $35,000 that happens to be not even close to the competition is a waste of $21,000. Better you should have spent $29,000 for a better van.

I think we sometimes do an injustice to newbies on these boards by being too negative (as I have just been) toward the brand you DON'T OWN instead of being factual about what you do own. First person experience is important.

jchan2 · December 2005

Let's establish something here:

Yes, the Odyssey and Sienna are the best minivans.

Yes, they (Ody and Sienna) cost more than a GM, Ford or DCX van.

Everyone is free to choose which van is their favorite. That's why this is America. Some people like the GM vans, while others prefer the Odyssey and Sienna. Everyone just has different tastes.

soderholmd · December 2005

You still haven't explained why I should have payed 12-14K more for a comparably equiped Honda or Toyota. What do they do that is 12-14K better than my van?

I also drove an 06' Uplander LT today with the new 3.9 engine. With 240 hp and 242lb ft of torque with a huge torque curve it is superior in just about all aspects to anything from Honda or Toyota.

BTW Toyota has downgraded it's 3.3 to 215 Hp for 06'. Not sure why, but thats kinda sad?!

sebring95 · December 2005

You still haven't explained why I should have payed 12-14K more for a comparably equiped Honda or Toyota. What do they do that is 12-14K better than my van?

You shouldn't have paid more. You're obviously happy saving the coin. I felt the Ody drove better than the competition enough to justify the cost difference. Granted, your cost savings are not typical at all simply because you bought a very late leftover model that had huge incentives. If there was a Honda sitting around for months on end, they might have to discount them heavily as well. But that's not the case so you got a good deal on a Saturn.

I'm about as UNbrand loyal as they come. I've owned about one of every model over the years. This Ody is actually my first Honda product. I'd buy another one tomorrow unless someone comes out with something that drives better. I put powertrain/driving above value. If I was buying value, I'd buy a 2-yo T&C.

macakava · December 2005

Agreed!

For used minivan, a domestic one is very compelling due to its dreadful resale value.

Regarding the referred 3.9L engine in the GM minivans and the similar ones in the Ford Freestars, they may have more power than their older ones the replaced, but they do not like to rev. I have driven them. When pushed(reved up), they still sound thrashy with cacophonic noises - there is no melodic sound like the VTEC engine of the Ody as it accelerates with gusto!

jchan2 · December 2005

You're right. You're obviously quite happy with what you drive, and you have many reasons to be happy.

I believe somewhere on the Toyota Sienna Owners Club website (not Edmunds, I can't post a link because its a message board) they have hinted that the Sienna's 3.3L will be swapped with the 3.5L for 2007.

macakava · December 2005

"they have hinted that the Sienna's 3.3L will be swapped with the 3.5L for 2007."

If they did that change and improve the driving dynamics(handling, road feel/connectedness, etc)to be as good or better than the Ody, it would be tough choice for me between the two.

Case in point: The new 2006 RAV4 with the 269hp 3.5L is very fast and has great driving dynamics for a SUV. But I prefer a minivan to be the cornerstone for my family practical uses (carrying people, load, etc) while being fun to drive as well.

soderholmd · December 2005

The GM 3.9 has nothing in common with Fords 3.8-4.2. I owned a 99 windstar for 7 years and it had nice torque, but was thrashy at higher rpm. That new 3.9 sounded nice (not as melodic as the odyssey - you're right)was very smooth and willing to rev. Totally unlike the 3.8 from Ford. I was impressed by it.

One thing that did strike me while looking at window stickers of these vans was this;

Honda Odyssey - 80% US parts content
Toyota Sienna - 85% US parts content

Saturn Relay - 70% US parts content

Now thats strange..............

Merry Christmas all...............

sebring95 · December 2005

I wonder which 3.5L GM is putting in the Relay? The Saturn Vue 3.5L is actually built by Honda (i believe in china and to GM specs) but they're still starting with a terrific powerplant. The Vue 3.5L is substantially more powerful than the Relay 3.5L so I have a feeling they're different engines.

jchan2 · December 2005

Yes they are.

The Vue 3.5 is the Honda Odyssey's engine and the Relay 3.5 is a GM High Feature engine used in the Malibu.

soderholmd · December 2005

Vue motor is based on the Odyssey's 3.5. The 3.5 is GM's evolution of the 3.1 2 valve. Going to a 3.4 and finally a refined 3.5 in the Malibu, then transplanted into these vans. It's a good bulletproof spunky motor. The new 3.9 is really good. 240 hp and very smooth and rich of torque.

fljoslin · December 2005

You still haven't explained why I should have payed 12-14K more for a comparably equiped Honda or Toyota. What do they do that is 12-14K better than my van?

I also drove an 06' Uplander LT today with the new 3.9 engine. With 240 hp and 242lb ft of torque with a huge torque curve it is superior in just about all aspects to anything from Honda or Toyota.

BTW Toyota has downgraded it's 3.3 to 215 Hp for 06'. Not sure why, but thats kinda sad?!

How is 240 Hp and 242 ft lbs torque superior in all aspects to the Honda Odyssey at 244 HP and 240 ft lbs torque? Toyota maybe.
As to the $12-14K more for the Honda or Toyota, ask that question again in a couple of years. I have seen 1 year old Chrysler and GM minivans selling at about 40% of MSRP. You certainly had better get a good deal when you buy a new one, because they will be worthless in a couple of years.

just4fun2 · December 2005

40% of MSRP! So, what does that mean? Honda people might pay MSRP, but not the buyers of Chrysler and GM. Come back with some real facts please! Soderholmd saved 12-14k almost enough to buy a second Relay! This guy got a great deal on a very nice van!

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