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The GC is the longer version of the caravan while the sienna is a bit smaller compared to it. The 04 sienna is as big as the GC. If youre buying new i would chk out the following site
http://www.toyota.com/html/shop/look_ahead/conceptcar.html#fchv
Go to the top right grey area and click on "2004 Sienna".
What makes you think the DCX minivans carry higher reliability than the GM and Ford offerings? If reliability is important to you, my recommendation would be to remove a used DCX van from your list.
What is your price range?
There are several new minivans hitting the market this year, but they may be out of your price range. IMO, power doors is an option that's not really necessary. You won't find it on many low-priced minivans, so if it's important to you then you'll have to pay up for it.
My advice would be to consider if you really need 8-person capacity or whether you would be fine with a 7-person minivan (2nd row captain's chairs). The 3rd row seat on many minivans really isn't big enough for 3 adults, so several minivans really are 6-adult, not 7-adult, vehicles.
As for specific models, how about a used 1999-2001 Odyssey? I've noticed prices on EX models in the $19-21k range, which is lower than I thought. Ody resale is still outstanding, but it does seem to be suffering a bit in light of reduced demand (my perception), the recent $1,000 rebate on new Odys, and increased competition from the redone MPV, Sedona, upcoming Sienna/Quest/Monterey, etc.
The other van I'd encourage you to try out, and I'm biased on this one since I'm an owner, is the Kia Sedona. No power sliding doors, but other than that a loaded EX model is very well equipped. 2 weeks ago I finally convinced my parents to buy one for themselves. Sedona reliability seems to be pretty good so far in the U.S. and Canada, which is shocking for a Kia but not so shocking when you consider the Sedona's good record overseas. My parents' Sedona has leather, power driver and front passenger seats, moonroof, a very good CD/cassette sound system, etc. A factory rear-seat entertainment system is not yet availabled, but a bulletin from Kia indicates they are working on rolling out a system this model year. It might be dealer installed. My parents paid $21,350 for their Sedona. This is a LOT of van for the money. We have 14k+ miles on ours and are thoroughly impressed.
artgpo, how does one get into the 3rd row on an 8-passenger minivan? I've never paid attention to how this is done since most minivans I've ridden in, such as in-laws' 2002 Montana, have captain's chairs in 2nd row. Does the 2nd row bench slide forward for access to the 3rd row by going behind the 2nd row bench?
Bluedevils, the second row seats tilt forward to allow 3rd row access....for kids.
I'm in the same situation: One two year old with twins on the way and trying to figure out what vehicle makes the most sense for carting them all around. My biggest issue has been trying to figure out where to put the kids in the vehicle.
I want a second row that can fit three car seats (so they're all in reach from the front seats). I have only seen 2 seater 2nd rows. Am I hearing that there are MVs with 3 seat capacity in the second row?
Yes - any minivan that indicates 8-passenger seating has a 3-person 2nd row seat-- 2 seats in front plus a 3-person third row = 5.
I don't know which of these 3-person minivan seats, if any, accommodates 3 child seats though.
Have you decided on a minivan, or would you be willing to consider a sedan or SUV that can accommodate 3 child seats in the rear seat? Some can do this - for example, one person on the Isuzu Trooper board says his 1999 Trooper does this. The new Ford Expedition (pricey!) has that cool slide-forward feature of the middle position in the 2nd row. I think the new Volvo XC90 SUV offers the same. So does the 2004 Sienna minivan, although this feature and the 3-person 2nd row appear to be available only in the lower trim levels.
And to fit the 2 car seats and one child in the van, simply put both car seats inthe 2nd row and the 2 year old in the 3rd row. Te 2 year old can manage to get in and out of the car seat with little help (meaning you don't have to carry he/she to the seat. He/she can walk to the seat and climb in).
If you need more room then you are definitely looking at either a used DCX, Honda or GM. After having driven and ride in the rear of of the Venture (short and extended wheel base) I would have a difficult time recommending it. It was a brutal, loud ride. You can feel every single bump. Although they do have a nice engine and good acceleration. DCX probably have the most thoughtful interior but you have to worry about reliability issues. The HOnda is fine but you will have to pay to get one.
The one issue that has been overlooked is what you really need is something that offers good cargo space behind the 3rd seat and has a split folding 3rd seat. If you do any traveling or visiting with the kids, ou will need as much space as possible behind the 3rd row and next to whomever is sitting in the 3rd row. Not unless you get a cargo case for the roof rack. If you have 3 kids under the age of 3, not only do you need to bring diapers, formula, etc. but you will most likely need to bring a Pack N Play and high chair along with your suitcases.
Good luck
2003 Sienna is surely a very good van and probably a good value considering the blowouts going on before the '04 hits Toyota dealer showrooms.
A couple things to point out re: Sedona:
1) The EPA fuel economy figures seem way too conservative. If Kia is smart, they will do whatever is necessary to get updated ratings on future Sedonas, although the 2003 seems to have the same ratings so maybe they'll have to wait until '04. Many folks, both professional reviewers and consumers, understandably point to this as a competitive disadvantage for Sedona vs. other minivans. All of the Sedona owners I've heard on this board are reporting better than the EPA figures (15 mpg city / 20 highway). We are at 19.5-19.6 overall, with about 50/50 city/highway driving. Straight city appx 17-18. Straight highway appx 22-23 @ 75mph.
2) Sedona doesn't have tons of room behind the 3rd seat, but it's enough for a full-size stroller. Both halves of the 60/40 split-fold 3rd row seat slide fore and aft several inches, which creates more cargo room behind the seat or more legroom as necessary.
Altough the MPV is a pretty small minivan, it may still serve a 3-kid family well for several years. Mazda dealers seem to be offering decent prices and there are good rebates, which makes MPV a good value right now. Yes, it's smaller inside but the cargo area is fairly generous with the 3rd seat up, due to the empty well that houses the 3rd seat when it's down.
MPV will have a sportier ride. Some think it's too firm for a minivan; others like it since it's more sporty and less van-like.
A 2003 Sienna will likely have better resale value, though that could change with the new 2004 hitting the market and decreasinag the appeal of the pre-2004 Siennas.
Both are good vans.
Is there a certain dealer closer to your house or do you have a preference?
The MPV carries a longer standard warranty, though you aren't likely to have many problems with the Sienna anyway.
Are you considering any other vans, or is it down to these 2 finalists?
1. eldest sits in the 2rd row. wife and youngest ride in the 3rd. even
2. wife and youngest ride in the second row while eldest i the 3rd row. Edge to sienna.
we have a sienna using option 1.
because of the 04 sienna the 03 are priced very well. Financing is very low. 0.9 for 36 months and so on. Do your home work.
bluedevil: I need rear air and heat and traction control on both vans
mpv lx: 21313
sienna le: 22717
there is a $1400 difference but the sienna also has ebd, vdc, a more comfortable 3rd row and better resale
mpv has car-like handling, alloys and of course fold flat 3rd row
there are toyota and mazda dealers close to where I am
I am sure in a couple of years the two kids can both sit in the second row
deepan: I could not find financing info on edmunds or toyota's website. I think the carsdirect price includes a rebate that is in lieu of the financing. Time to call the bank for a equity line
Car Seats: 3 car seats will fit in the second row, which is indeed 3 individual modular seats that form a bench when all are installed. The two outer seats flip and tumble for access to the third row. Very simple operation. The middle seat can be removed, or folded down to create a mini-table with cup holders.
Third Row: In 2002 GM changed the third row configuration for the Montana. Older (I'm only discussing the extended versions) units had a 50/50 split bench that flips and tumbles. You can use half for seating and flip the other half forward or remove it altogether. Starting in 2002 the extended version has a one piece fold flat 3rd row bench. This is a plus and a minus, depending on how you would use it.
Storage: Good storage witht the third row in place, comparable to most exetended minivans out there. The big bonus with 3 kids is that you don't HAVE to use the 3rd row for seating, as you can get all three of them in the second row and free up tons of storage space. I would challenge any minivan out there to compete with the Montana on storage space w/3 kids. In most minivans you would lose either half or all of the third row space to seating whereas in the Montana you can fold it or remove it and have all that storage space. Plus all 3 kids are in easy reach of Mom (or Dad).
I hope this clears some things up.
Ryles
But Pluto makes a good point, even if he isn't using the politically correct terminology like I am :-)
Steve, Host
Steve, Host
BTW, take the Sienna over the MPV. Sienna has better quality interior. Who cars if the MPV is sportier? It's a minivan not a Miata.
Our front facing car seat for the 2 year old is 17" wide. We will use 2 carrier/seats that clip into a base for the twins. Those are 19" wide. Grand total: 55" of seat width is required.
I may have to start shopping for different models of car seats next....
Another interesting thing, it seems that some vehicles don't have a center position LATCH which can limit your options.
http://www.carseatdata.org/csstats.pdf
Most vehicles do not allow 3 LATCH seats in back. The standard only requires 2 LATCH spots- so cost and width often mean the outside spots are the only ones with LATCH. Some vehicles, especially the larger GM sedans, do have 3 sets of LATCH anchors. Some, including Taurus and Windstar have only 2 sets, but the spacing is correct to use the "inner" anchors for the center though you then can ONLY use the center spot. Some carseats allow you to use the "inner" anchors of the outer LATCH positions in certain circumstances even if the spacing is a bit wider than the standard. Reading the vehicle and carseat owner's manuals is even more critical than before.
Not being able to use the center spot with LATCH except for a confusing array of special circumstances really didn't help to reduce the clutter of conflicting information on carseats:-(
Also see:
http://www.car-safety.org/latch.html
Kudos to Edmunds for a functional search feature!
Steve, Host
I'd love to see in what quantity people are buying different models.
Craig
'04 Sedona EX
link
Steve, Host
Craig
'04 Sedona EX
Surprising to see Kia Sedona up 25% vs. last year. Right now, they are selling 3- (MY 2004) and 4-model year old (MY 2005) vans that lack some key features in this class. I think Kia has made some inroads in the minivan market. Granted, they aren't doing it without rebates, but most of the minivan players, save Ody and Sienna, are doing rebates - and some makes, notably Ford and GM - are forced to throw HUGE rebates to entice buyers.
Sedona easily outsold Quest year to date, nearly double Pontiac's Montana, and easily doubled MPV.
What seems most interesting is that many minivan models have seen declining sales this year vs. last, including Windstar, Montana, Venture, MPV, and even Odyssey. Sedona and Sienna are among the relatively few models to see increased 2004 sales.
Steve, Host
ONLY Caravan, T&C, and Sedona have INCREASED for both October 2004 and YTD.
Sienna and Quest are up for YTD only while Odyssey is up in October only. Odyssey drop for YTD is probably due to loss of production while changing from 2004 to 2005 model.
The Quest is the BIGGEST winner in sales percentage increase for the year...but DaimlerChrysler still outsells Toyota and Honda combined.
How can anyone think Toyota and Honda are carrying the minivan market after reading the link Steve provided?
I always felt that being different for the sake of being different isnt a good move. Cadillac's new squared off designs do not appeal to me either. I consider Cadillac's to be in this same catagory. Gee, when I could buy a stylish and quality Lexus, Infiniti, BMW or Jaguar I wanna be different and buy this angular squared off cheezy plastic grilled American Car. There was a day(probably 50's and 60's) when Cadillac ruled the world. A shame.
Craig
'04 Sedona EX
It's not like Toyota did a minor refreshing of Sienna for MY 2004 and STILL saw a 90% increase.
Chrysler T&C with Stow-N-Go sales are up 3.3% this year over last...and Chrysler now sells almost 5 times as many T&C as Mazda sells MPV. Caravan sales are almost 10 times as much as MPV.
Would you prefer to get paid $310,563 a year or $21,834? That is the ratio of DC minivan sales compared to the Mazda MPV so far this year.
BTW, the Sienna sales are up 73.5 % and not the 90 % stated in posts # 202 and 205 ( 135,728 this year vs 78,231 last year = increase of 57,497...see link Steve provided).
Odyssey sales are UP 1641 units Oct 2004 vs Oct 2003 (increase from 10,962 to 12,603).
The Odyssey is once again outselling the Sienna.
http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svvan.asp
Toyota Sienna sales may have been up 90 % for one time period but not for calendar year 2004 nor for the month of October 2004 vs 2003.
I am writing to ask about putting 3 child seats across a bench seat in the second row of a minivan. I don't want to stuff them into the aft end of a vehicle (seem too far away, not sure about how "safe" this would be in a crash...outside the safety cell?)
As I understand it, my <new> options are limited to Odyssey or Sienna. What about a non-stow and go Grand Caravan just prior to the recent freshening (2001-2004? Did they offer this as a factory option? Could I swap the position of the 3rd row seat and the captains chairs?
Just looked at a 2001 Montana with 8 passenger seating, but it felt floaty and had terrible brakes (plus was filled with squeaks).
Thanks for any thoughts on the matter