Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

deepan · January 2003

The two vans (GC and sienna) dont come with seating for 8 atleast not until the redesigned sienna comes out in Mar 03. we own a sienna and its a great van both the ride and handling. I put the driving seat way back and the seat back a bit angled. You cant put a rear facing car seat behind it. since you will be having twins chk this out. We should be out of the rear facing seat in a couple of months!!! other than that great van.

The GC is the longer version of the caravan while the sienna is a bit smaller compared to it. The 04 sienna is as big as the GC. If youre buying new i would chk out the following site

http://www.toyota.com/html/shop/look_ahead/conceptcar.html#fchv

Go to the top right grey area and click on "2004 Sienna".

bluedevils · January 2003

Many minivans that claim 8-person seating capacity don't have enough room for 8 adults. 8-person seating means a 2nd row bench, which will restrict you to the lower trim levels of whatever van(s) you are considering, since most vans step up to 2 captain's chairs in the 2nd row.

What makes you think the DCX minivans carry higher reliability than the GM and Ford offerings? If reliability is important to you, my recommendation would be to remove a used DCX van from your list.

What is your price range?

There are several new minivans hitting the market this year, but they may be out of your price range. IMO, power doors is an option that's not really necessary. You won't find it on many low-priced minivans, so if it's important to you then you'll have to pay up for it.

My advice would be to consider if you really need 8-person capacity or whether you would be fine with a 7-person minivan (2nd row captain's chairs). The 3rd row seat on many minivans really isn't big enough for 3 adults, so several minivans really are 6-adult, not 7-adult, vehicles.

As for specific models, how about a used 1999-2001 Odyssey? I've noticed prices on EX models in the $19-21k range, which is lower than I thought. Ody resale is still outstanding, but it does seem to be suffering a bit in light of reduced demand (my perception), the recent $1,000 rebate on new Odys, and increased competition from the redone MPV, Sedona, upcoming Sienna/Quest/Monterey, etc.

The other van I'd encourage you to try out, and I'm biased on this one since I'm an owner, is the Kia Sedona. No power sliding doors, but other than that a loaded EX model is very well equipped. 2 weeks ago I finally convinced my parents to buy one for themselves. Sedona reliability seems to be pretty good so far in the U.S. and Canada, which is shocking for a Kia but not so shocking when you consider the Sedona's good record overseas. My parents' Sedona has leather, power driver and front passenger seats, moonroof, a very good CD/cassette sound system, etc. A factory rear-seat entertainment system is not yet availabled, but a bulletin from Kia indicates they are working on rolling out a system this model year. It might be dealer installed. My parents paid $21,350 for their Sedona. This is a LOT of van for the money. We have 14k+ miles on ours and are thoroughly impressed.

artgpo · January 2003

Both the Chevy Venture and Pontiac Montana are available in true 8 passenger configuration. GM is still offering 60 months @ zero % or $3,000 rebate in lieu of the financing. Check out the latest Consumer Reports frequency of repair ratings and you'll see they are pretty good. CR has downgraded the DC vans because of recent reliability issues.

bluedevils · January 2003

Have the GM minivans improved lately in the major crash tests? It seems they have had some pretty poor results in recent years.

artgpo, how does one get into the 3rd row on an 8-passenger minivan? I've never paid attention to how this is done since most minivans I've ridden in, such as in-laws' 2002 Montana, have captain's chairs in 2nd row. Does the 2nd row bench slide forward for access to the 3rd row by going behind the 2nd row bench?

kkollwitz · January 2003

Oh how I wish I had gotten 8 seats in my Venture, but nooooo, I was cheap and got 7. Now I'm sorry I didn't get 8. If you suspect that you'll need 8 seats, get them.

Bluedevils, the second row seats tilt forward to allow 3rd row access....for kids.

deepan · January 2003

on the GM vans.

bluedevils · January 2003

Oh, you mean 3 separate seats that sit side-by-side and act as a bench when all are installed? Now that you say that, it sounds familiar. Sorry for all my incorrect GM vans 2nd row bench talk!

dad2bx3 · January 2003

Nebrackman,

I'm in the same situation: One two year old with twins on the way and trying to figure out what vehicle makes the most sense for carting them all around. My biggest issue has been trying to figure out where to put the kids in the vehicle.

I want a second row that can fit three car seats (so they're all in reach from the front seats). I have only seen 2 seater 2nd rows. Am I hearing that there are MVs with 3 seat capacity in the second row?

bluedevils · January 2003

"Am I hearing that there are MVs with 3 seat capacity in the second row?"

Yes - any minivan that indicates 8-passenger seating has a 3-person 2nd row seat-- 2 seats in front plus a 3-person third row = 5.

I don't know which of these 3-person minivan seats, if any, accommodates 3 child seats though.

Have you decided on a minivan, or would you be willing to consider a sedan or SUV that can accommodate 3 child seats in the rear seat? Some can do this - for example, one person on the Isuzu Trooper board says his 1999 Trooper does this. The new Ford Expedition (pricey!) has that cool slide-forward feature of the middle position in the 2nd row. I think the new Volvo XC90 SUV offers the same. So does the 2004 Sienna minivan, although this feature and the 3-person 2nd row appear to be available only in the lower trim levels.

dtownfb · January 2003

Since price is obviously an issue, I would suggest a 2003 Toyota Sienna. it may be smaller then most but will fit your needs for now and the near future. They are offering big discounts to move these things off the lots in preparation for the 2004 model. It has good crash tests, acceleration, reliability and resale. Plus you get the 5 yr/60k mile powertrain warranty. I would pick this over the Kia Sedona esp. given the gas mileage rating of the Sedona.

And to fit the 2 car seats and one child in the van, simply put both car seats inthe 2nd row and the 2 year old in the 3rd row. Te 2 year old can manage to get in and out of the car seat with little help (meaning you don't have to carry he/she to the seat. He/she can walk to the seat and climb in).

If you need more room then you are definitely looking at either a used DCX, Honda or GM. After having driven and ride in the rear of of the Venture (short and extended wheel base) I would have a difficult time recommending it. It was a brutal, loud ride. You can feel every single bump. Although they do have a nice engine and good acceleration. DCX probably have the most thoughtful interior but you have to worry about reliability issues. The HOnda is fine but you will have to pay to get one.

The one issue that has been overlooked is what you really need is something that offers good cargo space behind the 3rd seat and has a split folding 3rd seat. If you do any traveling or visiting with the kids, ou will need as much space as possible behind the 3rd row and next to whomever is sitting in the 3rd row. Not unless you get a cargo case for the roof rack. If you have 3 kids under the age of 3, not only do you need to bring diapers, formula, etc. but you will most likely need to bring a Pack N Play and high chair along with your suitcases.

Good luck

bluedevils · January 2003

You make a good point - cargo room is probably more important than adult people room for someone with 3 small kids. That crossed my mind, but I didn't bother typing it. Good suggestion.

2003 Sienna is surely a very good van and probably a good value considering the blowouts going on before the '04 hits Toyota dealer showrooms.

A couple things to point out re: Sedona:

1) The EPA fuel economy figures seem way too conservative. If Kia is smart, they will do whatever is necessary to get updated ratings on future Sedonas, although the 2003 seems to have the same ratings so maybe they'll have to wait until '04. Many folks, both professional reviewers and consumers, understandably point to this as a competitive disadvantage for Sedona vs. other minivans. All of the Sedona owners I've heard on this board are reporting better than the EPA figures (15 mpg city / 20 highway). We are at 19.5-19.6 overall, with about 50/50 city/highway driving. Straight city appx 17-18. Straight highway appx 22-23 @ 75mph.

2) Sedona doesn't have tons of room behind the 3rd seat, but it's enough for a full-size stroller. Both halves of the 60/40 split-fold 3rd row seat slide fore and aft several inches, which creates more cargo room behind the seat or more legroom as necessary.

Altough the MPV is a pretty small minivan, it may still serve a 3-kid family well for several years. Mazda dealers seem to be offering decent prices and there are good rebates, which makes MPV a good value right now. Yes, it's smaller inside but the cargo area is fairly generous with the 3rd seat up, due to the empty well that houses the 3rd seat when it's down.

artgpo · January 2003

My Silhouette has the captains seats in the second row but we did look at an eight passenger Montana when shopping. If I remember correctly, the left and right outer seats folded forward to permit access to the third row seats. The three second row seats are more narrow than the individual seats in the seven passenger models.

nwng · January 2003

I used carsdirect.com to compare prices in my area and when comparably equipped they are priced very close. I know the 04 sienna is coming, but it will likely be sold at msrp for at least a couple of years. I sat in the 3rd row of both vehicle and the sienna is way better than the mpv. I have a 5yr old and one on the way and my wife likes to sit next to the kids (now especially with the one coming). So I figure even with the sienna I can fold half of the 3rd row and still have room for the stroller and other stuff, whereas in the mpv it's either 3rd row or nothing. Can someone give me advise?

bluedevils · January 2003

You said price is very similar. What level of equipment is on each van? Which trim level of each van?

MPV will have a sportier ride. Some think it's too firm for a minivan; others like it since it's more sporty and less van-like.

A 2003 Sienna will likely have better resale value, though that could change with the new 2004 hitting the market and decreasinag the appeal of the pre-2004 Siennas.

Both are good vans.

Is there a certain dealer closer to your house or do you have a preference?

The MPV carries a longer standard warranty, though you aren't likely to have many problems with the Sienna anyway.

Are you considering any other vans, or is it down to these 2 finalists?

deepan · January 2003

This is the issue. we have a 2.5 yr old and a 0.5 yr old. The wife insists sitting beside the 0.5 yr old. Two options.
1. eldest sits in the 2rd row. wife and youngest ride in the 3rd. even
2. wife and youngest ride in the second row while eldest i the 3rd row. Edge to sienna.

we have a sienna using option 1.
because of the 04 sienna the 03 are priced very well. Financing is very low. 0.9 for 36 months and so on. Do your home work.

nwng · January 2003

same situation here. my 5 yr old will be sitting in the 3rd row
bluedevil: I need rear air and heat and traction control on both vans

mpv lx: 21313
sienna le: 22717

there is a $1400 difference but the sienna also has ebd, vdc, a more comfortable 3rd row and better resale

mpv has car-like handling, alloys and of course fold flat 3rd row

there are toyota and mazda dealers close to where I am

I am sure in a couple of years the two kids can both sit in the second row

deepan: I could not find financing info on edmunds or toyota's website. I think the carsdirect price includes a rebate that is in lieu of the financing. Time to call the bank for a equity line

deepan · January 2003

the financing i was talking about is in canada. there is also a 1.9 48 month option i think. I am sure you can get something similar in the US. I very much doubt a bank matching these terms. Chk your local dealer.

ryles · January 2003

We have a 2001 Pontiac Montana. I'd like clear up some issues that are discussed above.

Car Seats: 3 car seats will fit in the second row, which is indeed 3 individual modular seats that form a bench when all are installed. The two outer seats flip and tumble for access to the third row. Very simple operation. The middle seat can be removed, or folded down to create a mini-table with cup holders.

Third Row: In 2002 GM changed the third row configuration for the Montana. Older (I'm only discussing the extended versions) units had a 50/50 split bench that flips and tumbles. You can use half for seating and flip the other half forward or remove it altogether. Starting in 2002 the extended version has a one piece fold flat 3rd row bench. This is a plus and a minus, depending on how you would use it.

Storage: Good storage witht the third row in place, comparable to most exetended minivans out there. The big bonus with 3 kids is that you don't HAVE to use the 3rd row for seating, as you can get all three of them in the second row and free up tons of storage space. I would challenge any minivan out there to compete with the Montana on storage space w/3 kids. In most minivans you would lose either half or all of the third row space to seating whereas in the Montana you can fold it or remove it and have all that storage space. Plus all 3 kids are in easy reach of Mom (or Dad).

I hope this clears some things up.

Ryles

montanafan · January 2003

The 50/50 split seats are back for 2003, giving you the choice along with the fold-flat.

lshklover · January 2003

Want to share my minivan seating preferences. I have 1992 DC, keep original 2nd row bench in my garage and original 3rd row bench in the second position. So the car can sit 5 and has ton of cargo space.

pluto5 · January 2003

Bad idea unless your rear seat passengers are kids or midgets cause there aren't headrests.

stever · January 2003

Lshbkover, my base '89 Voyager came that way (and no head restraints). We liked it so much we threw away the middle bench and moved the rear bench up in our '99 Quest (no center head restraint).

But Pluto makes a good point, even if he isn't using the politically correct terminology like I am :-)

Steve, Host

pluto5 · January 2003

they add to diversity

stever · January 2003

er, I was refering to the head restraints. They aren't made to rest your head on.

Steve, Host

dtownfb · January 2003

Are you sure you can fit 3 car seats in the one row?? The reason I am asking is some of these carseats are huge. I would think they would bump into each other. But I could be wrong.

BTW, take the Sienna over the MPV. Sienna has better quality interior. Who cars if the MPV is sportier? It's a minivan not a Miata.

dad2bx3 · January 2003

As part of my shopping process, I've taken to carrying a tape measure with me to see if a seat row can accommodate three car seats.

Our front facing car seat for the 2 year old is 17" wide. We will use 2 carrier/seats that clip into a base for the twins. Those are 19" wide. Grand total: 55" of seat width is required.

I may have to start shopping for different models of car seats next....

Another interesting thing, it seems that some vehicles don't have a center position LATCH which can limit your options.

caviller · January 2003

3-across carseats can work in many bench seats. Carseats do vary quite a bit in both width and the routing path of the seatbelt. Both can affect how easy it is to install in cramped quarters. This page has some measurements:

http://www.carseatdata.org/csstats.pdf

Most vehicles do not allow 3 LATCH seats in back. The standard only requires 2 LATCH spots- so cost and width often mean the outside spots are the only ones with LATCH. Some vehicles, especially the larger GM sedans, do have 3 sets of LATCH anchors. Some, including Taurus and Windstar have only 2 sets, but the spacing is correct to use the "inner" anchors for the center though you then can ONLY use the center spot. Some carseats allow you to use the "inner" anchors of the outer LATCH positions in certain circumstances even if the spacing is a bit wider than the standard. Reading the vehicle and carseat owner's manuals is even more critical than before.

Not being able to use the center spot with LATCH except for a confusing array of special circumstances really didn't help to reduce the clutter of conflicting information on carseats:-(

Also see:

http://www.car-safety.org/latch.html

Kudos to Edmunds for a functional search feature!

stever · November 2004

Reopened to compare the newer minivan options out there. Some of y'all must be shopping vans other than the Honda Odyssey vs. Toyota Sienna - 2005+ models.

Steve, Host

craigmri · November 2004

Does anyone have Sales figures for current minivans say for 2003 and 2004??

I'd love to see in what quantity people are buying different models.

Craig
'04 Sedona EX

badgerfan · November 2004

Try Autosite.com and click on market report, then go to vans; you can figure out the rest. Bottom line, T&C+Caravan combined still has better than 2:1 margin over the others. Toyota has come up strongly with 2004 redesign. Honda slipping a bit but may turn around with their 2005 redesign, if high prices don't turn too many off. The rest., Nissan, Ford, GM, Mazda, Kia, are limping along at quite low volumes.

stever · November 2004

Autosite does a monthly market report:

link

Steve, Host

craigmri · November 2004

Wow! I'm suprised about the numbers. In my area of Florida I see tons of Sedona's(possibly because I'm looking for them?) yet the figures show Honda and toyota sell more than twice as many(each). This suprises me a little. Not because I feel the Sedona is better(I know its not) rather because its such a rediculously good value. From 2003 to 2004 the Sedona numbers are up a large percentage even though the van is unchanged so I suspect people are beginning to become a little more comfortable with Kia/Hyundai.

Craig
'04 Sedona EX

bluedevils · November 2004

Do the figures include any model years sold during the months listed? I.e., the figures include both 2004 and 2005 model year vehicles?

Surprising to see Kia Sedona up 25% vs. last year. Right now, they are selling 3- (MY 2004) and 4-model year old (MY 2005) vans that lack some key features in this class. I think Kia has made some inroads in the minivan market. Granted, they aren't doing it without rebates, but most of the minivan players, save Ody and Sienna, are doing rebates - and some makes, notably Ford and GM - are forced to throw HUGE rebates to entice buyers.

Sedona easily outsold Quest year to date, nearly double Pontiac's Montana, and easily doubled MPV.

What seems most interesting is that many minivan models have seen declining sales this year vs. last, including Windstar, Montana, Venture, MPV, and even Odyssey. Sedona and Sienna are among the relatively few models to see increased 2004 sales.

jipster · November 2004

Right... total sales is only one piece of the pie. One must also factor in sales goals and increases in sales from previous months and quarters. From what I understand the Mazda MPV has increased sales this year by double digits over last year....as overall Mazda sales are doing really well. Mazda has just raised their rebates on the o4' MPV's to $4,250. Toyota carried the minivan market last year. Looks like Toyota and Honda will carry it again this year.

stever · November 2004

I can't help but wonder who the two Eurovan buyers were last month.

Steve, Host

badgerfan · November 2004

Those Autosite sales data are calendar year sales, so include some 2004 and some 2005 model year.

hansienna · November 2004

MPV sales down for both October 2004 and YTD. Same with Windstar and Venture.
    ONLY Caravan, T&C, and Sedona have INCREASED for both October 2004 and YTD.
    Sienna and Quest are up for YTD only while Odyssey is up in October only. Odyssey drop for YTD is probably due to loss of production while changing from 2004 to 2005 model.
    The Quest is the BIGGEST winner in sales percentage increase for the year...but DaimlerChrysler still outsells Toyota and Honda combined.

    How can anyone think Toyota and Honda are carrying the minivan market after reading the link Steve provided?

jipster · November 2004

That link was only for sales volume Hans...sales volume. Yes...your wonderful Chrysler Inc. is leading in total sales...everybody knows that as you mention it in just about every one of your posts. But, percentage increase in sales from previous years is stagnant on the Chrysler line.As well as most other lines for most of 2004.(The Edmunds link I read from reported Mazda MPV sales have increased this year) Chrysler sales are up barely a half a percentage point over the previous year. While Toyota Siennas are up around 90% from the previous year. Toyota Sienna sales for 2003 YTD 78,000 and for 2004 138,000. Now...would you rather have a 90% increase in sales OR would you like to have a 1% increase in sales? Honda is likely to see a similar increases with their 2005 Odyssey. That was my point.By the way...how's the 2005 Town & Country with stow and go, going? Also, I would think the Nissan Quest would have the highest in sales percentage increase this year...as there was no 2003 model.The Quest is falling horribly short of Nissans sales goals for 2004.

craigmri · November 2004

Every time I see a new Quest I try to like it but come away disliking it. Its a dynamic departure from the conventional minivan design of today and even though most people who dont like minivans but need a minivan say they want something different, I feel when it comes down to it people want a minivan to look like a minivan if that makes any sense.

I always felt that being different for the sake of being different isnt a good move. Cadillac's new squared off designs do not appeal to me either. I consider Cadillac's to be in this same catagory. Gee, when I could buy a stylish and quality Lexus, Infiniti, BMW or Jaguar I wanna be different and buy this angular squared off cheezy plastic grilled American Car. There was a day(probably 50's and 60's) when Cadillac ruled the world. A shame.

Craig
'04 Sedona EX

bluedevils · November 2004

Sure, Sienna sales are up huge vs. last year. But you should acknowledge that is due in part to Toyota having a long-in-the-tooth former model that, from what I recall, wasn't selling all that well especially in light of the engine sludge fears.

It's not like Toyota did a minor refreshing of Sienna for MY 2004 and STILL saw a 90% increase.

jipster · November 2004

Well, for being long in the tooth...the pre 2004 Sienna's were rated amoung the best...just behind the Odyssey. I do know the resale value was pretty high on all the 2001 and 2002 models we looked at.For what we would have spent on a comparable 2002 Sienna...we got a brand new 2004 Mazda MPV for just a little over a grand more. Sure,first year redesigns generally do much better than its predecessor.But, usually not 90% better.The 2004 Sienna barely nudged out the "long in the tooth" design of the 1999-2004 Odyssey in Consumer Reports top minivan rating of 2004 models. It will be interesting to see what Siennas sales do this year with the new and improved Odyssey out.

hansienna · November 2004

What about the 16.7 % DECREASE in sales for the Mazda MPV?
     Chrysler T&C with Stow-N-Go sales are up 3.3% this year over last...and Chrysler now sells almost 5 times as many T&C as Mazda sells MPV. Caravan sales are almost 10 times as much as MPV.
     Would you prefer to get paid $310,563 a year or $21,834? That is the ratio of DC minivan sales compared to the Mazda MPV so far this year.

     BTW, the Sienna sales are up 73.5 % and not the 90 % stated in posts # 202 and 205 ( 135,728 this year vs 78,231 last year = increase of 57,497...see link Steve provided).

hansienna · November 2004

Sienna sales are DOWN 129 units Oct 2004 vs Oct 2003. (drop from 12,440 to 12,311)
Odyssey sales are UP 1641 units Oct 2004 vs Oct 2003 (increase from 10,962 to 12,603).
The Odyssey is once again outselling the Sienna.

jipster · November 2004

WOW... the Sienna is a whole 129 units down for October. I bet the execs at Toyota are about ready to jump out the window.Considering the 2005 Odyssey is a total redesign and Oct 2003 is when the 2004 Sienna was new to the market...I would think Toyota is pretty happy with their numbers.

jipster · November 2004

The 16.7% decrease in MPV sales are for the United States market. Worldwide(and North American)sales are up.The MPV sells really well in Japan and Canada.The link is in one of these boards somewhere...I couldn't locate it. You didn't have it pulled did ya Hans?? The Chrysler T&C didn't have Stow-N-Go last year.Chrysler is disappointed in the 3.3% considering all they have spent in advertising with the stow-n-going-going-gone.Again, we all know that Chrysler sells more than all other automotive companies combined...that is why they are the best.The recent article I read in the business section of a newpaper I subscribe to noted the Sienna to have sales increase of around 90%.Without this huge increase..overall minivan sales would have fallen.Ate to much Thanksgiving Day turkey...goodnight all.

hansienna · November 2004

Autosite would be more reliable than the business section of a newspaper. Here is the link for your convenience:

http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svvan.asp

Toyota Sienna sales may have been up 90 % for one time period but not for calendar year 2004 nor for the month of October 2004 vs 2003.

dtownfb · November 2004

Great point about the overall minivan sales jipster. I knew the minivan market had dropped over the past 5 years...at a faster rate then car sales. I didn't know it was the Sienna that saved it.

easles · December 2004

Hello -

I am writing to ask about putting 3 child seats across a bench seat in the second row of a minivan. I don't want to stuff them into the aft end of a vehicle (seem too far away, not sure about how "safe" this would be in a crash...outside the safety cell?)

As I understand it, my <new> options are limited to Odyssey or Sienna. What about a non-stow and go Grand Caravan just prior to the recent freshening (2001-2004? Did they offer this as a factory option? Could I swap the position of the 3rd row seat and the captains chairs?

Just looked at a 2001 Montana with 8 passenger seating, but it felt floaty and had terrible brakes (plus was filled with squeaks).

Thanks for any thoughts on the matter

masterpaul1 · December 2004

From what I understand from reading post here at Edmunds, both the Sienna and Ody have second row seating for three. But I'm not so sure that you would be able to fit three car seats in a row. One thing you can do is when you go out shopping, take the three car seats with you and see how they fit. As far as the GC, the stow n go was introduced in the 2005 model year. We have a 2001 GC to which we can remove the two captain chairs from the second row to place the 50/50 split third row beach. Not sure if it will fit three car seats though.

kinko · December 2004

The the volume of sales depends on the production line capacity. My guess as more and more Sienna being rolled out the line at Indianna, we will see huge increase of sales. I wonder if the North American production line also supplies internation market. I know that the international market has more minivans models of the same brand to choose from. The size of the Sienna and Ody make it hard to drive around on the narrower streets outside of USA. They're both mainly built for the N. America market.

Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

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