Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

hansienna · April 2008

Sienna OBVIOUSLY had door weld problems in the 2007 model or why did the Toyota mailing read "2004 THROUGH 2007 TOYOTA SIENNA DOOR CHECK MOUNTING PANEL WARRANTY ENHANCEMENT"? ( All letters capitalized by Toyota).

The warranty enhancement is good ONLY IF the welds break before the Sienna is 5 years old or has gone 100,000 miles. :sick:

The Chrysler 4.0L V6 259 lb-ft @ 4,200 RPM is MORE torque than the Sienna 3.5L. 245 lb-ft @ 4,700 RPM. The maximum torque is also available at a LOWER RPM in the Chrysler engine than in the Toyota engine. :shades:

NOT an error - but worth noting: NONE of the 2nd row seats in the 8 passenger Sienna have armrests. The Odyssey has arm rests on both sides of the regular 2nd row seats which make it MUCH more comfortable than the smaller 2nd row seats with NO armrests in the 8 passenger Sienna 2nd row.

The Sienna has THE most cargo space behind the 3rd row and has the highest EPA fuel economy rating but I am annoyed by the glare from the poorly designed instrument cluster and dash of our 2006 Sienna LE.

yatesjo · April 2008

The door weld issue was mentioned with no judgment as to if the issue has been fixed. Similar to the the Odyssey transmission problems, it will take time to demonstrate if the manufacturer finally resolved the issues. I am more bothered by a transmission that has to be replaced multiple times than a door issue can be fixed and never come back. If I thought the problems were proven to be resolved I wouldn't include them in the cons list.

The biggest engine in the class has to have something going for it. Most torque it is, though you wouldn't know it by how quickly and quietly the Toyota did it's job in comparison. Correction noted.

The Odyssey is a neat design in the way they integrated captains chairs with a three across capability. It is worthy of more recognition than I gave it. The Toyota design is much more like a standard bench seat.

The Sienna has the most cargo space in any configuration.
Neither my wife nor I noticed any glare problems on the dash. You are the only one I've heard it from and that isn't enough for me to put it in my list.

yatesjo · April 2008

Thank you. I credit my wife for pointing out a lot that I would have overlooked.

ateixeira · April 2008

I didn't want the run-flats, either. $800 to replace per set. They say hey last longer if you bump up tires pressures a bit. Still, I'd pass.

I guess the reason I brought up the "4 stars" thing is that it doesn't paint the complete picture. 19/20 stars sounds better than 4/5. Plus, IIHS tests were great, and they're conducted at higher speeds, and at an offset angle. Here's a dramatic video worth watching:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqj2jloxTgc

As you can see, the door, A-pillar, even the windshield remain intact. And this is at 40mph!

Let's see. You own a Miata. Same here. You own a Subaru. Same here. You're shopping for a 8 passenger LE with dual power sliding doors. That's exactly what I own. Wow. What a coincidence.

Any how, go for an LE with EVP #2. You get a full trip computer, too, which the Ody doesn't offer until you step way up to a Touring.

A few surprises that mine came with that I wasn't aware of at first glance:

* trip computer
* a 3rd row that can tail gate (add that to your list, Ody's can't)
* puddle lamps

I can tell from your review that you are hooked on the engine, so was I. Still am. That V6 is wonderful.

Yes, hansienna pointed out the Dodge has more torque, but it weighs a lot more, and in the Car & Driver comparo the Sienna was quicker in every single acceleration test, and got 1mpg better to boot.

Also, he complains about a lack of arm rests, but you can fold the center seat down in the 2nd row and that works like a charm. There aren't outer arm rests, but the front seats don't have those either and you don't hear any complaints about that.

yatesjo · April 2008

I think the trip computer will go down as a con on the Odyssey since those are universally available on other vans at much lower price points. That was a turn off for my FIL when he was looking at the Odyssey (he ended up keeping his old Odyssey and getting a Camry Hybrid).

I will add the tailgate capability to the pros on the Toyota and Dodge- especially since that was one of the few things my wife liked about the Dodge.

I've seen the video before... I look up crash videos on YouTube regularly. I might add the IIHS ratings to the all vans and note the modifier to the Sienna con. It seems that all vehicles made today are better than the "safe" vehicles of ten years ago. Top Gear did some great smash ups you can look up on YouTube.

The Sienna driver's seat has an arm rest on the door with a nice storage compartment underneath too. I'll have to look at the Sienna with the center seat folded to know what I think of it. If that works, one relatively easy change Toyota could do for the Sienna is to add the armrests to the outside edges of the seats.

The Sienna LE with EVP#2 is exactly what I had in mind and the dealer said does not get allocated to this region. Again WTH?!?!? I'm going to check more dealers to make sure he wasn't blowing smoke, but because of the limitations of Toyota dealers' poorly designed inventory listings I can't just go on-line to look up how their vehicles are configured and have to call or go in.

My Miata is old and showing it's age in a lot of ways and with kids the wife and I can't just cruise the mountain roads anymore. But it is getting to the time of year I drive it to work everyday and it puts a big grin on my face. Unless they own a Miata, people just don't seem to understand the appeal; "You should get a Mustang convertible!" "What do you think of the Pontiac Solstice? I hear they're fast." growl grumble grumble.

The Subaru was the only station wagon I could get in my budget with a manual tranny and not FWD. It's not exciting, but it is competently engineered, well made and a pleasure to drive. The good side of getting a minivan is the Subaru gets demoted from the kids' car to the runaround car.

yatesjo · April 2008

I ran across this on the EPA website today where owners can report their own real-world economy results.
On the road fuel economy

Interesting notes:
Reported numbers for the standard Odyssey engine is better (avg 19.0mpg) than the engine with VCM (18.3mpg).

There isn't data for the redesign 2008 models up yet, but on the prior design Chrysler's 3.8L got better economy than the 3.3L, opposite of the EPA's own projections. This validates my hypothesis that the 3.3L engine has less than optimal power and drivers have to dig in deeper to get going, thus use more fuel. I bet that real world on the 4.0L will beat the 3.8 too since the power is better matched to the vehicle size and it also doesn't have the friction losses of push rods.

The 3.3L on the Toyota Sienna of previous years at 20 mpg is a bit better than the Odyssey- consistent with the Odyssey being a heavier van. The 2007 results for the new 3.5L were 1.5mpg better than that, making it the most efficient minivan by a wide margin.

I would point out some limitations to this data: it is a self selecting sample. The people going to the website will trend toward the most economy conscious and their driving habits will be better than most. Poking around I saw a number of vehicles where the average owner reported mileage was at the top end or better than the EPA estimate while the real majority of drivers see the mid or low range of the EPA estimates. Also the sample sizes are still small, so I averaged multiple years whenever possible. I would take the numbers in a relative sense and as they say "your mileage may vary."

artgpo · April 2008

I own a 2006 Odyssey EX-L with about 42,000 miles. I have consistently averaged 20 mpg in mixed city driving and 26 highway.

The VCM deactivates above 80 mph. I found this out on a road trip to New Mexico. Interstate 10's speed limit is 80 west of Kerrville, TX. I cranked up the van's speed to about 82 and noticed the ECO light stayed dark and my MPG dropped off to about 20 at that speed. Holding the cruise control steady at 79 got me back to about 24 MPG.

I recently had the front brake pads replaced under a TSB. Actually the TSB covered replacement only to 36,000 miles but due to a letter to American Honda and a gracious dealer (Fernandez Honda of San Antonio) the repair was covered at no cost to me. This was the only problem so far through 42,000+ miles.

Our son owns a 2008 Sienna XLE. His van's engine seems noisier to me and the ride and handling a just are a tad better in the Honda. When I bought the Honda I was also negotiating a Sienna. I felt ether was an excellent choice.

Past experience with a Grand Caravan (1994 model) taught me to avoid Chrysler products at all costs. The many Chrysler vans I rented in the past ten years (the last was a 2007 model) were crude when compared to either the Honda or Toyota. I expected a lot from the Odyssey and so far it has come to fruition, Look beyond the gadgets.

sebring95 · April 2008

Another thing on the Ody VCM...it doesn't turn on until the engine is completely warmed up. Mine takes about 5 miles of driving before it will come online.

yatesjo · April 2008

It's interesting how 2 people can have opposite opinions of vehicles. You compare your son's Toyota to your Odyssey and find the Odyssey quieter while we thought on our test drives that the Honda was the noisier and found the Toyota motor a quiet and refined marvel of engineering. I'm wondering if the differences are due to the trim levels or the variability of individual vans or just the subjective impressions of us humans.

I might just have to take a few more test drives to find out. O darn...

rahmibub · April 2008

Run-Flats are a hit-or-miss with most people.

The biggest pro is that you can continue driving for up to 50 miles in the event of a flat - albeit at a much more leisurely speed of about 45-40MPH. This safety feature is its single greatest selling point. Some can argue that since the walls are thicker, under-inflation is no longer an issue with run-flats, but I disagree.

The biggest cons against run-flats are:
1) A stiffer / harsher ride
2) Punctures greater than nail usually necessitate a full tire replacement. And if you like driving, that usually means replacing the tires in PAIRS.
3) The cost of the run flats are very high

Despite these drawbacks, Run-Flat manufacturers continue to improve this product - such as adding a self-sealing second layer.

Not all cars / rims can accommodate run-flats, so a swap out to this technology may not even be possible unless it is designed for it.

If I were in the market for a new minivan today, a Run-Flat is a feature I would certainly pay a premium for my family's safety.

artgpo · April 2008

I said the engine was quieter in the Odyssey but overall the Sienna is quieter. Perhaps it is my 2-1/2 years of owning the Odyssey and my limited riding/driving time in the Sienna? I felt the Sienna was more luxurious than the Odyssey.

It comes down to personal preference and a gut feeling. I sure hope I did not confuse you as that was not my intent. I only wanted to express my personal experience and perceptions.

hansienna · April 2008

I have owned a 2002 T&C LX, have driven a 2001 Ody EX on MANY occasions, and now own a 2006 Sienna LE.

The Chrysler T&C LX was THE QUIETEST of the 3 on the road although the Ody and Sienna engines are quieter. The Ody has THE MOST Comfortable seats while the Sienna has THE MOST cargo space behind the 3rd row. The Ody also has the BEST designed dash to prevent glare into the driver's eyes although the Sienna Optitron gauge cluster looks the most elegant at night.

The Taffeta White Odyssey should have the gray interior instead of the light tan. The light tan cloth seats and front door panels of my nephew's 2005 Ody EX looked dirty and UGLY after a few months while the green cloth seats and front door panels of my sister's 2001 Ody EX still look nice at 7 years of age. :shades:

dvsutton · April 2008

After owning a Honda Odyssey let me tell you about its "reliability" or LACK OF... Trans rebuilt twice. LSiding door fell off its track onto my sons foot. Heated seats will not work on a continuous basis. Dash rattles. Stalling problem. Fron rotors need replacing every 6 or 7000 miles. Interior materials are garbage and scratch easily. So I would recommend anyone considering a Honda product to seriously reconsider. As for the Toyota, after owning a Camry with the famous engine sludge coverup, my sons new Tundra has had its camshaft replaced, drive shaft replaced, transmission rebuilt at 13k miles. My neighbors Prius has a constant stalling problem. that about my expeirience with Toyota. So I would not recommend anything with a Toyota nameplate. I bought a 08 Town and Country for my wife after we "gave away the Honda" because nobody wanted it with all of the troubles it had, and We love the Chrysler. It has already crossed the country from San Francisco to Boston with no problems at all. So I guess I can only recommend the Chrysler and the Dodge. I would stay away from the IMPORTS. Nothing but PROBLEMS.

ateixeira · April 2008

I see, so basically every single import you've had experience with was a complete lemon, and every single domestic brand vehicle is beloved.

Okey-dokey.

hause7 · April 2008

Sure,you just happen to have a son and neighbor to have serious problems with their Toyota's and your Chrysler is really better than a Odyssey and Sienna??? lol

Wow, we had a T&C it was garbage and my aunts 99 sits in her driveway collecting dust..lol :lemon:

I just took another look at the new T&C and test drove it and it is still cheap garbage

Oh my local dealer still has 8 2007 Grand caravans and 5 2007 Town&country's.

artgpo · April 2008

I had a Toyota that was junk, a Nissan Van, junk as well. My 1983 VW Vanagon was a serious problem magnet. It would appear that Toyota has consistent quality but Nissan and VW are questionable.

During the past so many years I owned Pontiac, Ford, Dodge and Oldsmobile minivans. All were very reliable except the Grand Caravan. This van has soured me on Chrysler for the next 150 years. I presently drive a 2006 Odyssey which has been almost 100% trouble free. What minor issue there was has been taken care of by Honda.

I read about all the electrical issues with the 2008 Chrysler minivans and it reminds me of my 1994 model. Junk then more and higher priced junk today.

siennami · April 2008

That's because you don't live in South Carolina..... my vehicle came with one (Limited lifetime warranty, that is!). :P

ateixeira · April 2008

That only covers the powertrain, right?

artgpo brought up electrical issues that would most likely not be covered.

Hopefully Chrysler can resolve it.

yatesjo · April 2008

I've been digging deeper into the data on the EPA website and with some of the statistical tools I use as an engineer, I've backed out some estimates of fuel economy for recent years of Toyota and Honda.

I didn't not dig more into the Dodge/Chrysler because there isn't any data since the redesign and because I've pretty well scratched them off of my list.

I modeled the data by % city driving, model year and the estimated age of the vehicle as of the last report (using Jan 1 of the model year.) I'm not sure how the EPA calculates their combined number; my city/highway mix is straight 50/50.

My conclusions:
Vans 3 years old get 2mpg (>10%) better mileage than vans less than a year old.
Honda vans equipped with VCM do not get much better economy than non-VCM in the city, and actually do worse on the highway. Honda's VCM is also the only engine that does worse than the EPA estimates in this data.
Toyota's vans are more efficient than Honda's. The Toyota 3.3L does 1mpg better than the Honda and early data on the 3.5L promises to be even better.

Vans less than 1 year:--------------City---|---Mix---|---Highway
Toyota 3.5L (2007*)------------------18.6---|---21.4--|--- 24.3
Toyota 3.3L (2004-2006)-----------15.4---|---19.5--|--- 23.6
Honda 3.5L (2005-2008)------------14.8---|---18.7--|--- 22.5
Honda 3.5L VCM (2006-2008)----15.1---|---18.5--|--- 21.2
* Toyota 3.5L is for all vans regardless of data age.

Vans more than 2.5 years:--------City---|---Mix---|---Highway
Toyota 3.5L (2007)--------------------N/A
Toyota 3.3L (2004-2006)-----------17.8---|---21.9--|--- 26.0
Honda 3.5L (2005-2008)------------17.1---|---20.9--|--- 24.8
Honda 3.5L VCM (2006-2008)----17.2---|---20.5--|--- 23.3

EPA estimates:------------------------City---|---Mix---|---Highway
Toyota 3.5L (2007)---------------------17----|----19----|--- 24
Toyota 3.3L (2004-2006)-------------17----|----19----|--- 24
Honda 3.5L (2005-2007) -------------16----|----18----|--- 23
Honda 3.5L VCM (2006-2007)-----17----|-----20----|--- 25

siennami · April 2008

Yes. I figured that it was probably better than the 10 yr/100k mile warranty that my Kia had. That was one of the main reasons why I was willing to trade...well, and the fact that it was a Sienna was the prevailing factor, to be perfectly honest. The lifetime warranty was just "gravy". So when Chrysler keeps pulling out their commercials about that, I'm like eh, who cares? So does Toyota. Although in my hometown, the Chrysler dealership also offers free tires for the life of the car and stuff like that. It's attractive, I suppose. But not enough to make that T&C attractive, that's for darned sure! :P
While the lifetime warranty doesn't cover the electrical issues, I deliberately didn't get an LE or XLE for those same reasons. I'd already heard from a friend that a sliding door repair could cost upwards of $800, so I knew that would be out for me. And, I had to be really honest with myself. I could not afford either one of those vehicles unless I really talked some "magic" with a dealer, and at that point in my life, I was in no emotional shape to be dealing with someone like that. The week I got the Sienna was probably one of the worst of my life, so I probably didn't take care of things like I should've and that dealership got away with far more than they should have. The best I can say is I am driving the vehicle that I want. Long story, eh?? :shades:

ateixeira · April 2008

Sweet results, thanks for taking the time to do that.

That really reinforces my decision to wait for the 3.5l 2GR engine in the 07 Siennas.

Thanks! :shades:

mfletou1 · April 2008

Vate--
I think its already fair to say that Honda addressed the transmission issue in the Odyssey--the 2007+ Ody has a completely different transmission than the pre-07 versions. Its literally a completely different part.

The 07+ transmission is the same as the one that's been on the Ridgeline since its inception, and no problems have been reported.

mfletou1 · April 2008

Also..are you SURE the Sienna is cheaper?

Honda's been discounting the Ody far more aggressively than Toyota did the Sienna. Graned, I bought about 6 months ago, but at that time, the Odyssey was $2600 cheaper...the trim levels I compared were Ody EX-L vs. Sienna XLE.

Obviously, its a personal preference, but---we felt that the handling/steering difference was far greater than you apparently did. Car and Driver noted it too, and in their 5 Best article, even mentioned it in terms of safety and what they felt was the Ody's superior accident avoidance. We felt that way too--the Ody just felt easier to control, turn, manuever, etc than the Sienna.

Certainly, if you're looking for a Buick, than the Sienna's the way to go, though.

They are both good vans, of course. Really can't go wrong with either of them. But I think you migiht find than when you really get down to negotiating, the Ody will be cheaper than you think.

ateixeira · April 2008

Right now, the Ody is cheaper. An EX compares with a Sienna LE EVP#2, basically. The Ody will cost less today.

The opposite was true about a year ago.

Timing is everything.

You say "looking for a Buick" like it's an insult. As if more road noise was a good thing.

I was looking for a family car that was comfortable and quiet. The Sienna was simply better at carrying passengers and cargo, 108 cubic feet worth.

The Ody is more of a driver's car, but with 8 seats, 1 person will be happier in the Ody, the other 7 will be happier in the Sienna. That is how I saw it.

Call me unselfish, but I chose the vehicle that made the majority of passengers happy, rather than the driver's car to please me alone.

sebring95 · April 2008

While the Ody tranny was changed in 07, I dont believe there were any known problems causing the change. Ive been around these forums and other ody specific ones since this new generation came out and the only transmission issues Ive seen have been some random leaks caused by bad case machining. They obviously replaced the transmissions because of this, but there were no real internal problems not caused by contamination. Ive yet to hear of a massive internal failure on the 05+ transmissions, which was quite common on the earlier (pre-05) models. If I had to guess, Id say going to the 4-shaft design was more of a production move than anything.

hansienna · April 2008

Right on altho the Sienna engine has slightly more power now than the Ody.

#1. An Ody LX has better content than the Sienna CE

#2. An Ody EX has better content than the Sienna LE

#3. An Ody EX-L is comparable to the Sienna XLE

#4. An Ody Touring is comparable to the Sienna Limited

Sienna CE has NO deep tinted windows. NO Sienna LE has separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger that is standard on the Ody EX. Power sliding doors are standard on the Odyssey EX but are expensive options on a Sienna LE. Cast wheels are standard on the Ody EX but an expensive option on the Sienna LE. 8 passenger seating standard on the Ody EX but cost more than 7 passenger on a Sienna LE. However, the Sienna LE can have an expensive optional trip computer NOT available on the Ody EX.

You can buy an Ody EX-L without costly options but Toyota does not build Sienna XLE's without expensive extra options.

yatesjo · April 2008

I mainly did it for my own satisfaction and education and figured I would share with everyone else. I think the Honda is a good van but it is heavier and that is a factor in Toyota's advantage in this comparison.

I didn't intend to knock the Honda so hard, but I had to go where the data lead me. I was particularly surprised by how impotent the VCM seems to be. I don't think those upper trim levels are carrying around that much in extra weight and drag to explain why VCM was not effective- especially at highway speeds.

yatesjo · April 2008

I heard that they made some significant changes in the tranny in the past few years and am glad they swapped it out with an entirely different one with a good history. There is a very good chance I will be buying the Honda just because their dealers have have the vehicles with what I need sitting on their lots while Toyota does not.

In my comment I said that configured with the minimum options for what I need, the Toyota cost less. I'm comparing a Sienna LE 8-passenger with EV#2 (MSRP=$27125 invoice=$24481 incentives=$1000) to a Odyssey EX (MSRP=$29595 invoice=$26864 incentives=$2000. At those prices the Honda has more options, but the extra options are not what we need or even want and even with the recent increase in Honda dealer incentive the Honda is still a $1400 premium over the Toyota.

As to the Buick comment... I'm looking for a minivan and my expectations are suitably reduced. The drivers feel in the Honda is better, but it's still a minivan and it's not that much better. This is also a compromise between my wife and me and while I see good and bad in both and would probably be equally happy with either, she has a very clear preference for the Toyota. Ultimately the purpose of a minivan is not to be a drivers car, it is a family car where everyone needs to be comfortable and enjoy the ride- and if it puts the kids to sleep all the better. When I want a driver's experience, I have an old Mazda Miata that virtually no Honda with 4 wheels can match for feel and handling.

ateixeira · April 2008

Toyota's option system is more a-la-carte.

It's not as simple as CE=LX, LE=EX, XLE=EX-L, and LTD=Touring. We only wish.

It's not like that at all, though. It's hard for the consumer to compare.

Yes, the CE windows are not tinted, but what if someone wants windows that are not tinted? Maybe they have poor night vision. Toyota gives you the choice, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

I found that an Ody EX was roughly the same as an LE pkg 3 back in 2007. For 2008 the EX is roughly the same as an LE with EVP #2.

You trade-off small things. The Ody has dual climate control and a lazy susan, but the Sienna has a trip computer, puddle lights, power 3rd row vent windows, and a 3rd row that can tailgate..

For 2007, I also found:

Ody EX-L = Sienna XLE pkg 6
EX-L RES = Sienna XLE pkg 7
EX-L RES/NAV = Sienna XLE pkg 8

Roughly equal, not exactly equal. I'm sure anyone could find 2-3 things at least on each that the other would lack. Options packages for the Sienna have probably changed for 2008, but take a few minutes and you'll find similar matches.

You wrote "Power sliding doors ...expensive options on a Sienna LE"

Not true at all, the EVP #2 only costs just $383 at invoice, and you get that wonderful trip computer you mentioned. No way you can call that "expensive". It's a bargain, actually.

I love that trip computer. In fact I'm going to make sure the next car we buy has that feature, it's a must-have.

Plus, I got that on a pretty basic LE, on the Ody you basically have to be rich and pay the premium for a Touring. Basically most Odys don't have that at all.

Another mistake you made: "Cast wheels are ... expensive option on the Sienna LE".

False. They are now standard on the base LE, not optional.

mfletou1 · April 2008

Ok, but its not uncommon to be able to purchase Odys below invoice PLUS incentives...I realize mine was an '07, but I paid over $1000 under invoice and got $2500 in incentives. I couldn't get any Toyota dealer to go below invoice on the Sienna, even now it happens on the Honda.

Well, I would respectfullly say that I don't really couch this in terms of driving enjoyment, but rather safe and secure handling responses. The Sienna, of course, is certainly not unsafe in any way, but if I have to execute an emergency maneuver, I'm glad I'm in an Odyssey. I also didn't think the Ody was much noiser than the Sienna--it has more ride noise, but less engine noise, at least to my ears.

Now, you have one additional piece of information there which trumps all the others: you say you wife clearly prefers the Sienna.

In that case, its an easy decision. Get the Toyota.

sebring95 · April 2008

Having bought probably ten new Toyotas in the last 15 years (both business/personal) I can say putting the word wish and their a-la-carte system in the same sentence would be most correct. Ive yet to get a Toyota exactly the way I wanted, even though the option combination was allegedly possible. My wife waited 5 months on her GX470 before they finally conceded it wasnt going to happen the way she wanted. Its a lot less a-la-carte than theyd have you believe because if they dont feel like building that combination of features, they just wont do itsales literature be darned.

Is the Honda system better? No, but if nothing else you know your choices right from the start..take it or leave it. The domestics always get positive marks on option availability when shopping and Ive generally always walked away with very close to what I was looking for.

yatesjo · April 2008

When my wife worked for the MO conservation department she had to drive state vehicles and to do so took classes in defensive driving. As part of her test drives she takes each vehicle through emergency maneuvers she was taught in that class. She felt as confident or more in the Toyota than she felt in the Honda. I've never had a driving class in my life, so all I have is the seat of my pants.

Combine that with the objective results like slalom and skid pad and I don't think there is any strong ground to say that the Honda is a safer handling vehicle. In DOT crash test ratings the Honda has an advantage though.

The buying decision isn't as straightforward as you think. It starts with a go/no-go on if the van meets our minimum needs. After that it is a weighted decision based on price, utility, comfort, economy, driving preference.... etc. If the Honda dealers are willing to close the $1400 price gap or the Toyota dealers don't carry the van optioned to meet our minimum requirements, then it will be the Honda.

ateixeira · April 2008

Honda is definitely dealing more right now.

Like I said before, in May of 2007, the opposite was true. I'm not sure why that changed. Toyota's prices have been fairly consistent, actually. A new 2008 with the equipment I have costs about the same amount today.

It's Honda that has brought prices down. Dramatically. About $2 grand on the EX I was shopping back then.

That's good if you are shopping for an EX today. Terrible for resale values on 2007 EXs, for people who paid $27k, which is about what it was selling for a year ago.

I guess I just got lucky. I wanted VSC, rear disc brakes, and power sliding doors on both sides. Alloys wheels and a CD changer, too. That meant LE pkg 3 for Sienna, or Ody EX for Honda. Both had what I wanted. I was able to find both in plentiful supply.

Toyota has made it easier, as mentioned above VSC comes on all models, the alloys are standard on the LE, and there are fewer packages now. I do know what you mean about certain packages not being available in certain regions, that just didn't affect me here in the mid-Atlantic.

mfletou1 · April 2008

There hasn't been any depreciation hit on Ody discounts whatsoever. Depreciation isn't as simple as vehicle A sold for x new, and therefore will sell for y now. Depreciation has a lot to do with reputation, not just transaction price. I can't believe what low mileage Odys go for...I have no idea why people by them. For a very small amount more, you can have a new one. But people still are buying them used.

sebring95 · April 2008

There hasn't been any depreciation hit on Ody discounts whatsoever....... I can't believe what low mileage Odys go for...I have no idea why people by them. For a very small amount more, you can have a new one. But people still are buying them used.

Are they actually buying them for these high prices or is that just what you see people/dealers asking? I ask that because some real-world trade-in numbers I've seen for Ody's are significantly lower than what I would expect at this point. On the real-world trade-in value forum here at Edmunds, an '05 Ody Touring with 44k miles just was quoted at $18,000-$19,000. That's lower than what I would have expected. Edmunds trade-in value on it is $2,000-$3,000 above that. Edmunds lists my '05 EX-L with NAV/DVD and 34k miles at $21,000 trade, $23,000 on a private sale and $26,500 for a certified used. If anyone seriously would pay $23,000 for our Ody....as much as we love it I would have to say "FOR SALE"! and I'll go buy a new one.

mfletou1 · April 2008

Well, judging from a few in the neighborhood, I'd say people are still paying pretty good money. CarMax of course is a different beast, but my local one had an 07 EX-L with 20k that sold in 2 days for a 2 thousand more than I paid for my new one! (Some people are just...stupid).

$19k's not bad for a 3 year old 44k vehicle...that's probably 58% or so...

mfletou1 · April 2008

I mean to respond...on my Buick comment, you sort of saw as perjorative, not me. I stand by the comparison, it does ride like a Buick. Some people (like you) may want that, some others may not.

But I would say that the Odyssey is hardly nosiy or rough riding...just more so than the Sienna, which is indeed quiet, but also rather floaty and, in my mind, a little overly isolated. But if you want isolated, that's your car. But trust me...my kid sleeps fine in the Ody. And my parents drive an '06 DGC, so everytime they ride in my Ody, they can't believe how quiet it is!

hansienna · April 2008

NO way.

My wife always commented on how noisy my sister's 2001 Ody EX is after riding in our 02 T&C LX from the time the Ody was 2 years old (T&C 1 year old) to the time we got our 06 Sienna which is not quite as quiet as the 02 T&C.

My nephew's 2005 Ody EX is also NOT as quiet as either the 02 T&C or 06 Sienna LE.

mfletou1 · April 2008

Well, all I can tell you is that its pretty obvious if you go right from the 06 DGC to the Ody, which they do all the time when they come to our house. I still drive theirs on occassion and its very noticeable. Its a different kind of noise--the DGC noise is up by the pillars, not as much "tire/road" noise. But it definitely is noisy.

hansienna · April 2008

WHICH model GC do they own? I had read that the GC with "Stow'N Go" are not as quiet as the earlier ones without "Stow 'n Go" ...another reason we got our Sienna instead of a 2006 GC SXT.

The Odyssey's biggest defect is that it is too noisy on the road while Chrysler minivans have been praised for being quiet on the highway.

sebring95 · April 2008

There's a lot of "what ifs" to the noise issue. Road type, weather, etc. will make a big difference. My mother has owned several T&C's, latest is an '04 and I've been in more rental Caravans than I can count. IMHO, the Ody (in stock form) is more noisy in certain situations. The difference is that Ody has a lot of road/tire noise and the Chrysler vans have more wind/engine noise. This is not comparing the newest Chrysler vans as I've yet to have cockpit time in them. Tire noise is the killer on the Ody and those OEM Michelins are horrible, especially if you drive a lot of concrete roads. On Asphault they're not nearly as bad. I ditched the OEM Michelin's awhile back for a better touring tire and the road noise was drastically reduced on concrete highways. Still more noisy than other vehicles, particularly going over bumps. But for me, the Ody was still the best choice even with a little more noise. Never had anyone really complain, grandkids sleep fine, I can talk to folks in the 3rd row.

mfletou1 · April 2008

Yeah they have an 06 SXT with Stow n Go.

Of course, their application is different--they rarely carry people, just things (besides our toddler). My dad does use the stow n go frequently and hauls stuff around. He calls the DGC his work truck, and he says that if he was buying a passenger vehicle, he'd get what I have, but for his application, the DGC works great. I think that makes sense.

Yeah, the Ody noise is tire related, the DGC is wind and engine.

bobber1 · April 2008

That's good to know that when you switched out of the OEM Michelins that helped. I agree with your assessment. Cement roads are the worst for the Honda. Don't notice much over bumps however. Love the van other then that one issue. Will research tires closely when I wear the current ones out.

ateixeira · April 2008

I've seen close-to-new pricing for both the Ody and Sienna, also.

To be fair, you would only expect the drop in resale values to happen once these new 2008s hit the used car market, so it's perhaps too soon to tell.

mfletou1 · April 2008

I suppose, but for Honda 2007s were heavily discounted, too.

I would also note that I have not seen abnormal depreciation on the previous-gen Accord, either, which starting in early 2006 started to get big discounts on new models.

ateixeira · April 2008

My timing was bad, I suppose. 2007s were not being discounted much in May of 07. Toyota had much better pricing at the time.

bobbylena · April 2008

We are looking for any advice on what we should purchase. We have looked at a 2004 Nissan Quest V6, with 38,000 miles for $14,999, and a 2006 Dodge Caravan 4 cylinder with 21,000 miles for $10,998 we are a family of six with four kids ages 3 weeks, 3, 6, 7 years old. Please help us!!!

bobber1 · April 2008

I'm no expert on the Chrysler 4 cylinder, but if you feel it has adequate power why not buy the Chrysler? Nearly 1/2 the miles of the Nissan and 26% less in price. Mileage will probably be about the same between the two. You can check Consumer Reports, but I don't think the Nissans score any better in reliability.

hansienna · April 2008

The 2006 Caravan 4 cylinder engine would NOT have satisfactory power.

thegraduate · April 2008

If you're trying to go 0-75mph on a short uphill ramp, then it may be inadequate, but for an in-town driver with a light foot, it may be perfectly fine.

I'd suggest driving it on your daily commute (merging, passing, etc) to get an idea of how it will perform. Load it with people on your test drive, if that is a typical setup for you.

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