Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

ateixeira · March 2009

The 4l V6 is quite fast...quicker than the Entourage in a C&D test (8.0 vs. 8.7 to 60mph). Also more fuel efficient - 18 vs 14 mpg as tested.

Spring for the big engine, at least. You sampled one of the weaker base engines.

aaron_t · March 2009

2008+ Chrysler/Dodge minivans have traction and stability control standard. They do offer powertrain options, though. The 4.0L/6-spd is quite quick and responsive. The engine is a little louder than I think it could be.

blueolive · March 2009

Hello. I'd like advice on the purchase of a minivan. My wife will likely drive it while I take her Volvo. We have one toddler and another on the way. We live in Canada, so winter driving is a factor.

She drives far less than I do because she takes the train to work and a year of maternity leave is on the way also. There will be times when we need to transport eight people, so a larger minivan would be nice.

I don't care much for bells and whistles, but I think we've had the Volvo for so long that my wife won't want to settle for less (e.g. leather would be nice). We'll probably buy in a few months, possible toward the end of the year.

What models should I look at? What other requirements would be helpful for me to give? :confuse:

hjc1 · March 2009

The first thing I would suggest is to read the various blogs on the Minivans you have some interest in. Although informative you must remember that these blogs are biased because people seem to complain more then the satisfied owners.
Looks like GM and Dodge minivans won't be in business much longer so that might not be a wise choice at this time. That leaves Honda, Toyota, Ford (Flex) and Hyundai
Price and value needs to be considered. I live in Wisconsin and ended up buying a 2008 Hyundai Entourage. I test drove all the vans and this one offered all the good stuff at a much lower price and a 10 year warranty ........ We have had twice the normal snow this year and had no problems driving through this stuff :=)

kbella3 · March 2009

Don't forget Kia. I have an '08 Kia Sedona and simply LOVE it.

hjc1 · March 2009

OOOPPs forgot about sister company.......Both great cars :=)

ateixeira · April 2009

They don't offer an 8 seater, though ("we need to transport eight people"), so cross the Sedona and Entourage off the list right away.

I don't think the Dodge/VW vans come in an 8 seater, either.

The only two 8-seater options are the Odyssey and the Sienna.

In the Ody I think you have to get the EX or higher, and then you get a little bridge that goes between the two captain's chairs in the middle row, so you can squeeze an 8th passenger between the other two.

To be honest, I wanted an 8 seater also, and for me the Sienna 8 passenger was the best by far, because the middle seat is adult-sized, about 20" wide.

What Toyota did was they set the outboard seats farther apart to make room for a real, adult-sized chair. You do give up the arm rests on the outer chairs, but the middle chair folds so you still have inner arm rests.

The catch is it's only on the CE and LE models, so you can't get a loaded up 8 seater. That should be OK, the LE packages offer plenty of equipment.

We're happy with ours. The engine is the most powerful in the minivan class and still returns very good MPG, and there's room for us, our 2 kids, and up to 4 friends plus cargo. Hard to beat combination.

Here is a big photo of the 2nd row, the middle seat can even be moved forward, for easy access to a toddler when needed:

http://www.toyota.com/img/vehicles/2009/sienna/gallery/full/2009-Sienna-15.jpg

Here is the Ody's 2nd row. As you can see, your back actually rests on the folded arm rests, not ideal but I suppose it works in a pinch for short distances:

http://media.photobucket.com/image/odyssey%202nd%20row/firemomof3_photo/2ndrowod- - - yssey.jpg

thegraduate · April 2009

Of course, you might want to adjust the captain's chairs to line up with the middle seat in the Ody.

Having ridden in that middle row to dinner across town, I can say it isn't bad. Same seat cushion feeling (not a hard hump like some sedans) as the other captains chairs so your rear doesn't get numb!

fmichael · April 2009

What's the quality (size, and comfort) of the outter capt. chairs with the Sienna LE 8 when compared to the Sienna LE 7?

I do know that the Sienna LE 8 is a better option if you're looking for a proper 8-seater when compared to the Odyssey EX; wife, & I are on the fence if we should get a 7, or 8 seat configuration.

thegraduate · April 2009

If you are carrying eight passengers very often, I'd go with the Sienna. If you occasionally need the eighth seat, the Odyssey with the PlusOne seat is definitely the way to go; those armrests make a big different in seat comfort (the 8-pass Sienna doesn't have them in the second row).

ateixeira · April 2009

grad - LOL, not my photo, that's the only one I could find. :shades:

I measured at one point and the outer chairs on the 8 pass. Sienna are 22" wide, while the center chair is 20" wide.

My office chair is less than 20" so I consider all 3 of those adult sized, even for long distances.

What you give up are the arm rests, but the middle chair would not fit between them if an armrest was there, so you can't have your cake and eat it.

All 3 chairs recline and are IMHO very comfortable. We took the van to Florida and drove for hours at a time. One very nice feature is that the front passenger chair folds flat, so you can recline the 2nd row and put your feet up on it. It's almost like a bed. I drove with my brother for 7 hours and we each took a 3.5 hour shift driving, the other half virtually lying down and watching a movie on the 12" DVD screen I had installed.

So 3.5 hours driving, 3.5 hours watching two movies.

Now that's a road trip. :shades:

voiceofstl · April 2009

Lets say I agree that the Honda and the Toyota are the best vans. Don't they cost $10,000 more then the Dodge or even the Kia?
I say for the biggest bang for the buck you can't beat the dodge with the 3.8 or the 4.0 motor and I love those stow & go seats, its the only van that does that.
After the Dodge i'd say the Kia is the best buy for the money?

comments..........

sebring95 · April 2009

I bought back in 2005 and as close as you could outfit them, the T&C was $5,500 less than the Odyssey we bought. The T&C was heavily discounted, employee pricing plus several thousand $$ rebates. Odyssey I negotiated $500 over invoice with no incentives (good deal at the time). We liked the Odyssey a lot better so it really wasn't a money thing, but I wanted to know really how much the difference was. Fast forward four years and 50k miles, KBB says private party value on the exact same vans is $17,000 for the Odyssey (EX-L with NAV and DVD) vs $11,000 for the T&C (Touring with NAV & DVD and extras). Based on how heavily Odyssey's were being discounted last year, I'd be surprised if there's more than $5,000 between them now and no way is there $10,000. But someone else can do that math.

Considering we're already a year longer than we would typically keep a vehicle (still very happy with it) I'd say we've done just fine on the bang-for-buck factor.

ateixeira · April 2009

I paid about $25k for my Sienna LE with power sliding doors on both sides and a trip computer. There's no way you could find a Dodge or Kia for $10 grand less than that at the time, probably not now either.

At the time, a similar Dodge van was $22-23k and did not have the 8th seat I wanted. A 7 passenger Sienna was $24.7k. So it was more like $2 grand price advantage, not $10.

The Ody EX, which is the model with the power sliders and 8th seat, was $26,883 at the time, but came with some extra equipment I didn't necessarily want. It costs a bit more but you get the extras.

I actually looked at the Entourage more than the Sedona, though they are clones, and the Entourage was $23,317, and though it still didn't have the 8th seat and a couple of things my Sienna had, it had a backup sensor and heated front seats. So I'd consider the equipment level roughly similar.

I did see one bargain Entourage for $19,799, but it has no power doors and no 6CD changer, so it was pretty bare-bones. Still, a bargain.

I also saw a left over 2006 Dodge minivan for $20,600, but it was the old model, and already looked so outdated.

But you'd have to compare those to a Sienna CE, which was a little under $22k.

So $2-3 grand price edge for similar equipment, maybe, but not $10, no way no how.

Sure, you can price a Sienna sky high, but only if you get things that other vans simply do not offer at all, and that's not really fair. I'm talking about AWD and laser cruise control, stuff like that. Not comparable to any other van, so why compare?

We should not penalize Toyota for offering more options, especially if you don't have to pay for them. Very few Sienna were over $33k when I was shopping, and the funny thing is those were the ones that sold first, because some customers want everything. So they were actually hard to find. Go figure.

Those were prices in the Spring of 2007, and I bet they are down for ALL vans. I know the new Sienna is a few hundred cheaper at least. The Ody's price has dropped even more.

All the better for the van shopper, it's a buyer's market.

lavrishevo · May 2009

BUT, Chrysler 4.0L has MORE torque which is also at a lower RPM than the Sienna 3.5L.

Chrysler 4.0L: 259 lb-ft 4200 RPM
Sienna 3.5L: 245 lb-ft 4700 RPM

Would be nice to compare the GC SXT with a comparably equipped Sienna XLE and not compare the heavy T&C Limited with a lightweight, spartan Sienna CE.

In comparing the American engine vs the foreign did you ever look at Kia Sedona's 3.8?
3,778 cc 3.8 liters V 6 front engine with 96.0 mm bore, 87.1 mm stroke, 10.4 compression ratio, double overhead cam, variable valve timing/camshaft and four valves per cylinder
-
Unleaded fuel 87
-
Multi-point injection fuel system
-
21.1 gallon main unleaded fuel tank 17.6
-
Power: 186 kW , 250 HP SAE @ 6,000 rpm; 253 ft lb , 343 Nm @ 3,500 rpm

ateixeira · May 2009

Torque is good but in a head-to-head comparo in C&D the Sienna blew all the other vans away in acceleration tests while also managing to be the most fuel efficient, an impressive feat.

Dodge did well, too, coming in 2nd on both.

The Entourage did OK in acceleration tests but gas mileage was dismal.

lavrishevo · May 2009

I think we both know 0-60 times on C&D are pathetic compared what many others are achieving. 7.8 is about the fastest achieved on the Sedona. The point I am making is having 253 lbs of torque at such a low rpm is fantastic. It is all about torque for those who know engines not HP. The Sienna is fast because of its weight, the lack there of, and is a good van. I really don't like Dodge but this is just me. Anyway, back to your point about mileage... Ever thought about the amount of years it takes to make up the difference between let's say the Kia Vs Sienna. If the Sienna averaged 4mpg more then the Sedona at 1 21 gal tank a week it would take 19.5 years to make up the $8,000 price difference. Not to smart of a purchase. For me in PR this was the price difference for comparable models. Not to mention the far supperior warranty

yatesjo · May 2009

Economy is only one factor in many that differentiate models that really should only be significant in comparing otherwise evenly matched vehicles and then only on dollars and cents. Spending more for a small economy increase is almost never worth it.

However I took a look at the Hyundai when we were shopping for minivans, walked away and never looked back. Yes it is considerably cheaper... and felt every bit of it. Fit and finish were no where near the Toyota and Honda levels and much closer to Dodge level. On the sample I looked at, the third row was the least accessible of any minivan and more like a cross over- that may have been because not even the dealer could operate the 2nd row mechanism correctly. The magic third row was heavy and hard to move and that would have been a strict no-go for my 5'4", 105# wife (only the Nissan's single bench third row was heavier and more awkward). The general impression was they looked at the lead vans on the market and made lesser imitations of good features, but had no original thoughtfulness to add. Ride quality and driving dynamics were blah even for a minivan. Also, while Hyundai has made great strides, they still aren't in the same league for reliability and the forum discussions bear that out. All that makes the extra cost of the Sienna worth it with more power and better economy as icing on the cake.

lavrishevo · May 2009

I could not disagree with you more. I found nothing so special about the Ody or the Sienna to justify over 10 grand more for the base model Ody and 8,000+ for the Sienna. I'm not saying that they are bad in any way but I am saying they are not worth the extra money. Your claim of not being in the same league is just silly. If this was not the case then how come a lot of market share is being constantly lost to the Korean market. The quality of the Kia, even before the redesign, could easily be claimed to be better then the Ody with tremendous transmissions failures. Now I am not saying the Koreans have not their sets of problems but their problems have not been powertrain. This says a lot about the quality of the most expensive and important parts of the engine. I think I can correctly claim quality because I actually own a Sedona for the last 3 years and have not had problems. The only van that actually handled more like a car is the Ody. The Sienna's ride is softer and leans in the corners more then the Sedona.

My wife has no problems folding the third row but, she is not 105 lbs. To me they are very easy but again this is subjective to body type.

I never test drove the Entourage as Hyundai does not sell it in Puerto Rico so I can not say if it drove different then the Sedona. I do know that the standard features and price sold me.

bobber1 · May 2009

We've all invested in a brand's van and because of that we're going to naturally defend our purchase.

Hyundai guy, your arguments are interesting, but until Consumer Reports tells me Hyundai long term reliability is as good as Toyota and Honda, I'm not buying your argument.

I did check out Hyundai when I was looking for vans. It was an okay van, but I really recall both the Toyota and Honda's being better equipped with more little detail items. The Hyundai price was better, but I only recall it being a $3,000 or $4,000 difference between comparably equipped vans. The depreciation hit you'll take will easily wipe that savings.

If you're a value guy, yeah buy the Hyundai. I wasn't and love my Honda.

lavrishevo · May 2009

I own a Sedona not a Entourage by the way. So I guess that makes me a Kia guy... Oh and by the way look at the 09 consumer reports and see how they rate the 09 Sedona off of 2006 data. Real accurate there chief considering 06 was the redesign year.

ateixeira · May 2009

I am going to agree and disagree.

it would take 19.5 years to make up the $8,000 price difference

Yes, *if* the prices you were quoted were really that far apart. In my experience it was less than half that price difference, more like $2-3000, easily made up on resale (and then some).

I can find basic Sienna CE vans for $21k all day long without even having to haggle over the price, and you won't find an Entourage or Sedona for $13,000. Sienna LE with 2 power doors for about $24.7k, again no Korean van with power doors on both sides brand new sells for $16.7k. Freight included in all prices, BTW.

And no fair comparing an AWD Sienna with dynamic laser cruise control and HIDs to a Korean van without any of those things.

Apples to apples there's no way the difference is $8000, not in my experience.

You are in Puerto Rico so that may be a different story, but here on the mainland there's just no way it's $8000 less. If it were, to be fair, I'd probably be in a Sedona.

I did think the engine performed fine (I test drove a Sedona). The trim was OK for the price, especially when you stay under $22k, no excuses needed. I felt the cabin was a bit narrow, not sure why, and it wasn't as quiet as the Sienna, but it wasn't bad at all.

Too bad you can't fly up here, buy a van, and drive it back. Only if it's an amphicar, LOL.

lavrishevo · May 2009

In the states the market is very different. Here in PR Sienna's start at 29,500 Ody at 31-32 grand. This is because of the excise tax and lack of competition to name a few factors... And just in general the Japanese dealers are ripping people off because they can.

I agree that there is less options from Kia, but to counter the HID argument my kit from e-bay cost less the $200.00 with lifetime warranty. Not sure why someone would pay often over a grand for this option when you can do it yourself for 1/8th the price. Not to mention my pioneer touchscreen in the front connected to a 10.4 inch in the back for less then a grand. These options from the dealer are always a rip off.

yatesjo · May 2009

If you didn't see a big difference between the quality of Sienna or Odyssey versus the Sedona/Entourage maybe that's just because some of use are more picky than others. If your happy with your purchase good for you; I wasn't comfortable with the quality issues I saw. The power train may have once been the most expensive part of a vehicle, but these days electrical gremlins can severely compromise reliability, be devilishly expensive and hard to find and those are what got my attention on the forums.

Driving dynamics of the Entourage made the Sienna seem positively athletic in comparison. It leaned, it wallowed, it bounced around to an extent that I would have been car sick sitting in the back and it dove heavily on a hard stop. The steering felt dead and after having just driven the Sienna, the engine didn't feel like anything special. Maybe the Kia is tuned more athletically, there wasn't a Kia dealership in the neighborhood and I wasn't going to search one out based on my experience in the Hyundai.

My thought on why the Koreans could be picking up market is two fold: Chrysler has dropped the ball and cheap=value in some peoples minds.

lavrishevo · May 2009

Yeah this conversation has been about the Sedona not the Entourage. And just FYI in the Slalom test Ody did it at 60 mph, Sedonda at 59.5, and Sienna at 56 mph. Pretty easy to tell what van has better handling.

ateixeira · May 2009

I went aftermarket for my DVD player, too. 12" screen for $900 and that was installed.

You only mentioned the slalom time - in lateral grip the Sienna matched the Ody evenly. Not to mention the Sienna in that test was handicapped with the narrow tires from the base model instead of the upsized wheels and tires the others tested had mounted.

So Sienna had #1 0-60, #1 mpg, #1 lateral grip. I can overlook the slalom with all those wins.

lavrishevo · May 2009

Isn't big screens in the back fantastic!

Now let me ask you something... are you quoting your model or the current model? Correct me if I am wrong but don't you have an 06 from the previous design? Maybe I am wrong but I thought I remember you mentioning this.

I hear ya on the lateral grip, and 0 - 60 times. But I can pass on that for saving over 8 grand and getting all the options I wanted. ESC, ABS, TPMS, 8 airbags, and setting the standard for safety for the first van with 5 star in every category. Not to mention 10 / 100,000 mile powertrain warranty standard and 6 / 60,000 bumper - bumper.

and I quote...
. Insurance Institute for Highway Safety
As of Jan. 2009
Top Safety Picks 2009
by Editors of IIHS.gov
4 stars Credibility Rating{?}
Our Assessment

The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety crash-tests cars and trucks, mimicking front, side and rear-end collisions. Cars are rated based on how well they withstand each crash. In order to merit recognition as a top safety pick, a car must earn the highest rating of "good" in all three crash tests, plus offer electronic stability control. The Hyundai Entourage, Kia Sedona and Honda Odyssey are awarded the Top Safety Pick rating for the second straight year.

National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
Not Dated
5-Star Safety Ratings
by Editors of SaferCar.gov
4 stars Credibility Rating{?}
Our Assessment

NHTSA crash-test ratings for most 2009 vans and minivans are included here in a simple chart format. Vehicles are assigned a rating of one to five stars based on performance in front-impact, side-impact and rollover tests. Of the minivans featured in our report, only two -- the Toyota Sienna and Mazda5 -- do not achieve five-star impact and four-star rollover ratings, although their ratings are almost that high.

thegraduate · May 2009

I own a Sedona not a Entourage by the way. So I guess that makes me a Kia guy...

It's a case of 6 of one, a half dozen of the other. The vans are as different as the Town & Country and Grand Caravan (read: not very).

voiceofstl · May 2009

I am still pretty new here. But I am shocked by how few posters here own Dodges/Chryslers, I know that Dodge had their problems with the infamous 4 speed tranny back in the 80's and early 90's but I believe that Hondas had great problems with thier trannys also.
I'm not a super buy American man but I say if its close buy American. Especcially in these times when our fellow Americans can use our help. I still say dollar for dollar the Dodge is the best buy.

lavrishevo · May 2009

In all honesty Dodge was the first van I looked stand if any van felt underpowered, this is in 06, and lacked many of the standard features offered by others it was the Dodge. I think they are decent vans and their engines / tranny's are good but the just are not exciting in any way to drive. Plus their safety is way under par compared to the Koreans. I agree and I wish to support the American economy but not at the expense of my family.

petaka · May 2009

Problems with my ten year old Quest have me going over this tread but it seems that somehow the domestic folks have put themselves out of business.
Take my Quest/Villager (built by Ford and Nissan). It has a decent size and power and it is extremely comfortable. So why couldn't Ford keep building something similar? Both Ford and Nissan replaced it with their own tuna boats and the Ford version was so unappealing that it has been discontinued. Kia, Chrysler, Mazda and Toyota used to have smaller vans but the alluring thing was to build tuna boats.
I would like to help the domestics but so far the only one that comes close to my old Quest is the Sienna.

ateixeira · May 2009

I waited for the 2007 model Sienna, because I REALLY wanted that 3.5l chain-driven V6. Lots more power, no more fuel, no belt to change.

Like I said, if I had seen $8 grand savings I'd be driving a Korean van now.

NHTSA and IIHS have not tested a 2007+ Sienna, and I think they should because it's a totally different engine block from the 2004-2006 3.3l V6, plus there were changes to the firewall and to the front door pillars.

Even so, you can watch videos here:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/safety-recalls/carcrashtest/crashtestvid- eo.htm

Sienna earned a Good score from IIHS in frontal offset and in the side impact tests, and that's the best score possible.

ateixeira · May 2009

FWIW, when I was minivan shopping the latest Dodge van was not out yet. The old one didn't even have 2nd row windows that open, and my kids really wanted that.

I have seen the new one since and I don't feel like I missed out on anything. Features are clever but execution could be a lot better. Maybe Fiat will get it right.

lavrishevo · May 2009

I have really spent all my life in the U.S. and purchased 4 cars from various parts of the country. I became the dealers archenemy... hehe I was ruthless when it came to negotiating a deal.

In the states the price difference would be closer to 4 - 6 thousand as you mentioned but here in PR it is a different story, especially factoring the excise tax. Can you imagine paying 31 - 32 grand minimum for a Ody? what a joke! Life in the Caribbean... But then again PR makes Florida look like the beaches in Jersey...

I also test drover the older version Dodge, hated it. I had a 08 Caravan for a rental, hated it as well and it had nothing to do with it being a rental. It just felt so blah to drive, sight lines are terrible, engine noise, uncomfortable seats, poorly designed interior, and ugly to boot. I am so, so happy I did not wait for the new Dodge back at the end of 06. Again, this is just my personal experience and I am sure there are people who will swear by the new Caravan but I was not impressed in the least. As I wrote in a post while back, while my van was having the bumper painted and replaced in the body shop I was driving the caravan and could not wait to get the Sedona back. Not to mention the Dodge only had I think a little over 8,000 miles on it.

ateixeira · May 2009

No, I can't imagine paying more than $30 grand for a vehicle my family needs, but I really don't "want". A van is something you have to buy, and then when you do, you like it. To spend more than $30 grand I'd hope to feel passionate about it, so no thanks.

I drove my van down to Florida in January, and my brother rented a Dodge van. I drove it from the hotel to a store around the corner, so it was a quick hop, but I wasn't really impressed, the interior materials were awful. To be fair the rental ones are usually mid-level models without anything fancy, but then again so is my Sienna.

My van was also much quicker and I was getting much better mileage than my brother got on the same drives, though he has one more kid and may have had a bit more weight in his van.

yatesjo · October 2010

I'm surprised there have been no comments on this forum about the head-to-head comparison between the new for 2011 Ody and Sienna.
http://www.insideline.com/honda/odyssey/2011/2011-honda-odyssey-touring-elite-vs- -2011-toyota-sienna-xle-comparison-test.html

In an utterly predictable result, the editors gave the nod to the Odyssey because of driving quality and puzzlingly, given the large as-tested price difference, value. I say predictable because Honda still emphasizes the driver experience over the passengers and auto reviewers rarely take time to ride as a passenger. I would be curious about the reviewers' take on a Sienna SE vs a similarly equipped Odyssey.

I think, though, that they maybe right in picking the Honda. If I were in the market for a new van (I'm not. I'm quite happy with our 2008 Sienna, so I hope never shop this generation of vans) I would probably swing over to the Honda. First and foremost is the dreadful step down in quality and content I saw in the new Sienna- dash materials I would go out of my way to not touch, loss of true 8-passenger with a dreadfully uncomfortable substitution, loss of storage areas, poor interior fit and finish, etc. The second is it looks like Honda has improved areas I found weak- the 8th passenger seat looks a little more comfortable (where Toyota took a huge leap backward to worse than previous generation Ody), more LATCH positions (again Toyota took a step backward here), controls look better sorted, reportedly better noise damping and more space inside. The Toyota still has the better engine, but Honda has put enough effort into cutting weight that performance differences have been negated and fuel economy improved. My only complaint is the Ody still appears to be short on ground clearance, probably due to Honda's focus on the driver experience.

All in all, Honda moved the ball forward, Toyota sort of let it roll backwards.

jpf · October 2010

I own a 2006 Dodge Caravan SE. This is the most basic van; 4 cylinder engine and hand crank windows. Besides regular maintenance (oil changes, tune up, new tires, and just replaced the original battery), the only repair has been a belt tensioner in 63k miles. Front brake pads have been done once and original rotors are still on the vehicle. Rear brakes are original. I can get up to 32 mpg on the highway. Paid just under $16,000 (taxes incl.) for it when it was new. I have no complaints with Dodge.

ateixeira · October 2010

That's a great value.

They dropped that model and replaced it with the Dodge Journey. That's not getting the Pentastar V6, too, so it's gone upscale, but don't expect to find one for $16k any more.

ateixeira · October 2010

I'll pre-empt this by saying that for me the 8 seats were a priority, and today's Odyssey offers a bigger/better 8th seat (middle row, center), so that would likely be my choice.

However...

That write-up is severely flawed.

First, if they drove an Ody priced like their Sienna, it would have come with a lesser 5 speed transmission, hurting both acceleration and fuel economy.

Then they missed many, many things the Sienna offers, like the Harmon Kardon stereo upgrade and auto-off headlights (heck, my 07 LE has those). In the features they also overlooked the Sienna's AWD option, a big one, plus the power folding 3rd row seats, and the laser cruise control.

Those are big ticket items - having an AWD option and power 3rd row folding seats is far more important than 45 extra watts (650 vs. 605 - who cares?) on the stereo or a power passenger seat (and to be honest I wonder if they got that part wrong, too).

Edmunds needs to re-write that article, it's very flawed.

Let's see them compare a similarly priced Ody EX to a Sienna SE, which is the model Toyota designed to compete with Honda. You and I agree there.

That plus hire a fact-checker.

All in all, Honda moved the ball forward, Toyota sort of let it roll backwards.

That I agree with.

Tough call, though, because unless you spend more then $40 grand you'll get a lesser powertrain in the Honda.

To be totally honest? I might even shop for a CPO 2010 Sienna if I were in the market today. I really want a comfortable 8th seat, and even Honda's new one, while far better than Toyota's new one, is no match for the excellent adult-sized seat in the 2004-2010 Sienna.

pmcb48 · October 2010

After reading many reports on people's impressions of the 2011 Sienna and Odyssey, some strongly liking one or the other, I am left with the impression that "to each his own" is the best philosophy.

My wife and I both recently tested and compared the 2011 Sienna Limited vs the Oddysey Touring, and I agree with the impression that the Odyssey is more set up as a driver's car, with slightly firmer steering. However, we thought the Odyssey's interior was perceptibly less spacious and the front seats were firmer, narrower, and more uncomfortable. They would bother me on a long trip. My wife also very much liked the Sienna's reclining 2nd row seats with the footrest, and the way the center console slid backwards to make cupholders more accessible to 2nd row passengers.

We also liked the Sienna's styling (never have liked the Odyssey's open rear door channels). So we have a clear preference for the 2011 Sienna, and ordered one last night. For those who like the Odyssey instead, whatever fills your van,

ateixeira · October 2010

I'm not sure why Honda hasn't found a way to hide those large door seams - everyone else has.

I prefer the styling on the Toyota as well, by a wide margin, but for me that would be a very low priority.

thegraduate · October 2010

Because it would cut down on shoulder room by 4 inches, according to Honda.

ateixeira · October 2010

I will let you guess which of these has more shoulder room in the 2nd and 3rd rows....the one that hides the sliding door tracks -> Sienna.

Lame excuse by Honda engineers. "Sorry about the ugly design, it's so that we could offer less room!"

LOL

pmcb48 · October 2010

I don't think styling should ever be a "very low priority." I may need to buy a tank, but given everything else being hopefully relatively equal, I'm going to pick the better-looking tank.

ateixeira · October 2010

I don't ignore it totally, but these things are more important to me:

* interior comfort
* quietness
* ride
* powertrain performance
* fuel economy
* cargo space
* number of cup holders

Just kidding on that last one. Sort of.

thegraduate · October 2010

Just conveying their message.

I don't have time to look it up at the moment, but I'd like to see how wide the rear tracks are, the overall width of the vans, and the interior hip/shoulder room measures.

ateixeira · October 2010

Didn't mean to shoot the messenger. I meant to shoot the Honda engineer who said that. LOL

Width:

Sienna: 78.1"
Odyssey: 79.2"

So with more than inch of extra girth to work with, it's still more narrow inside, and they still could not sort out how to hide the seat tracks.

Epic fail.

yatesjo · October 2010

I agree. A highly flawed review.

It was overly focused on things that are important to car reviewers rather than minivan buyers. We have to read between the lines and study the pictures to find what is relevant to us as minivan users. Most reviews go on and on about about handling (thus my foregone conclusion about picking the Honda), but what most buyers are most interested in are "does it go?" and "does it stop?" (in both acceleration and braking the Toyota actually has the advantage.) and not so much in how fast they can round the curve (the passengers complain about being tossed about).

In addition to ignoring the SE option on the Sienna, they compare top of the range vs upper middle range. A common problem with these reviews is most people buying vans don't buy the top model, they buy the middle range. As you pointed out that the Honda performance and economy is highly related to the transmission only available to this trim level.

A minivan review needs to be more about how comfortable is the passenger space (seats in all positions, noise), safety equipment (brakes, airbags, LATCH positions), how well sorted out the controls (especially entertainment system), availability of storage space... Honda seems to have improved a number of those areas, but they were far from the focus of the author.

We agree again about getting a 2010 or earlier Sienna as possibly being the better option. In the last week I suggested that to a friend at work who wants a new 8 passenger vehicle for long family trips.

thegraduate · October 2010

I wouldn't go so far as to say the review itself is flawed, so much as it reviews the aspects of the vehicle that a smaller portion of minivan shoppers is going to be concerned with. People want to know more about how the interior features work than at what g-force the tires break loose on a skidpad.

That said, however, I know more than one person who use the minivan (an Odyssey and a Sedona owner) as their only vehicle, that must serve several purposes. In that situation, how "fun-to-drive" it is, while a moot point to many, especially in a minivan, suddenly becomes more important, although not priority.

Perhaps a way to sum this up is to say that Edmunds reviewed what drivers want, not what they and their passengers need.

On the subject of matching trim levels for comparisons, I agree it should've been made crystal clear that Toyota offers a sporty model to counter the Odyssey. That they couldn't find an Odyssey EX-L to test (or a Sienna Limited or whatever the top-level is now) is likely the manufacturers' fault, not the writer(s)'.

ateixeira · October 2010

Several good points made....

I would like to see road noise levels compared, did they publish that?

And Honda is plastering 28 MPG everywhere but that's only $40k plus, meaning nearly everyone won't get models that are rated that high.

They used to reserve VCM for the EX-L and above, now they reserve the 6EAT for the Touring and above, so you have to spend even more to get the best mileage. The richest people are the ones who need that the least! It should be the other way around.

The bulk of people will spend low/mid $30s, and that's what Edmunds should have tested. EX vs. SE, or even LX vs. LE.

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