Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

rockmobile · December 2010

You just described my dream minivan. I certainly do not need all the bells and whistles that come with the new models. What I like is the comfort and utility of the added space. That makes my old Quest almost irreplaceable.

ateixeira · December 2010

I think most minivan shoppers have kids, and those parents want a nice/clean interior, not a contractor's special.

However - I agree the dual-purpose is a huge appeal, in fact I've carried sheets of plywood inside, plus 16' long trex decking (hatch open), other lumber, mulch bags, etc. I just lay a tarp or sheet underneath it all.

I saw one guy who removed the 3rd row and built a trap door from plywood, so he had a flat floor AND the huge cargo well. Not sure where I'd store the seats, but I figure he's got nearly 200 cubic feet to play with.

You can always buy a Ford E-350 van for stuff like that.

marine2 · December 2010

My Dodge mini van will be 5 years old the 30th of this month. It still looks like new and I have helped three people in my family move with it. Carrying dressers, chest, end tables, even a new washer. Saved $35.00 delivery charge there. My Mom and Sister both have a hard time walking any distance and when we go to places like Park and Swap, I can load both their electric scooters in the back or side door, with a steel ramp I bought and still have room to seat one of them in the back. Stow and go has been a life saver for me and my family. Not forgetting the huge storage it gives me to hide things. I usually keep one middle passenger seat stowed so when I take my dog, he has a nice place to lay. It also comes in handy loading some things in the side door, like the bassenette I bought for my Daughter at Park and Swap.

I know my Dodge hasn't got the nicest looking interior, doesn't handle quite as nice as the Honda or Toyota minivans, but so far, it's been trouble free and a real workhorse. I have made two long trips with it, with my family the last two years to Ohio, from Arizona and have no complaints with them with the back seats being too hard. It really came in handy there too. As having the last row of seats stowed and one middle seat stowed, I was able to put luggage on one side and a air mattress on the other, so one person could lay down and sleep comfortably all the way there and back.

I think if your only going to use your mini van to haul people, both the Honda and Toyota is the better choice. But if you use it for a lot of other things like I do, you can't beat the Chrysler mini vans. The new ones have a lot nicer stuff on it than mine does. Thank God, they kept stow & go. I'm sold on it.

ateixeira · December 2010

When the new one comes out, can you check one out and compare/contrast the interior?

We rented one a while back and the space was certainly impressive, but I wasn't a fan of the inside.

Honda and Toyota left an open door for someone else to take the lead in this segment. Honda by reserving the best powertrain for the $40k plus crowd, and Toyota by cutting costs on the interior.

tifighter · December 2010

Stow and go really is a killer feature; there are people who have picked the Chryslers based on this alone. If they really have addressed the known issues with the update, they could make a leap for sure.

Here's the first drive review from C&D for the 2011 Dodge. Another positive review...

marine2 · December 2010

Before my Dodge mini van, I had a truck. When helping my sister move, I noticed my brother was able to get more stuff in his mini van than I could in the truck.(He could go up a lot higher.) Trouble was, his Dodge mini van didn't have stow n go and taking his seats out and putting them back was a bear. When having mine in for an oil change and looking around at all the new vehicles, the salesman took me over to show me the new stow n go mini vans. I was sold right there. It is just a great feature for anyone that uses his mini van for more than people hauling. Being able to load up my Mom's and Sis's electric carts was a real plus. It helped them get out of the house more. After five years, I'm in love with it still.

mfletou1 · December 2010

I agree with what people are saying about the multi-use van. We have 2 kids with a third on the way, and we carry my parents around a fair amount. We have a 2011 Odyssey, and just traded our '07.

My dad has a 2009 Town and Country Touring. He uses his as a work van first, and then sometimes has my kids in it for trips out to their house. But he hauls shrubs, cargo, you name in in that thing and gets a lot of use out of Stow and Go.

Both vans are perfect for their applications. He's the first one to tell you that his seats are uncomfortable (they're brutal), the overall build quality of his van is abysmal, the handling is nothing short of awful and its slow. He's driven our '07 a few times and calls it light years better than his--wait till he drives my '11. BUT...for him...he needs that versatility and he actually uses Stow N Go.

For me..even if we had Stow N Go, I can't think of a single instance where i'd use it. We do sometimes have the third row folded down, and now that the Odyssey can take three carseats in the 2nd row--and is the only van that can do so--that will remain an option. So its a not a useful feature for me, especially since you have to give up build quality and seat comfort to get it. But I DO understand why it makes sense for some people.

I will say that my dad's van has had a couple of problems--sliding door stopped working (fixed under warranty) and he had some kind of steering issue which was resolved. In fairness, I had an issue with my torque converter on the Odyssey too. But the bigger thing was that his brakes wore out at less than 20k miles...and believe me, my dad barely uses him. He's 74 and he drives like it (SLOW.) He had to pay for new brakes. I traded my Ody at 44k and it still had original brakes and tires and was having no braking issues.

As my mom says...buy cheap, get cheap! (And his van was cheap.) I do hope that Chrysler steps up the quality of components in the new van.

uplanderguy · December 2010

Have you looked at the comments on Edmunds about Odysseys? Trans and other serious issues all over the place. Issues too with the Chryslers; however, for some bizarre reason everybody buys into that, and thinks the Odysseys are perfect. Perception vs. reality.

uplanderguy · December 2010

I think having a torque converter issue is a much larger issue than needing brake pads prematurely. I feel certain if it were the 2007 Chrysler with torque converter issues and the Honda needing front brake pads, the comments on this board would slaughter the Chrysler foremost.

ateixeira · December 2010

even if we had Stow N Go, I can't think of a single instance where i'd use it

OK, let me see...I've removed the seats from my van twice in the 3.5 years we've had it, and both times I knew in advance.

So for me it's very seldom, but it would still be a nice bonus.

Nissan has a clever seat but it doesn't quite fold flat, though it would probably still work.

mfletou1 · December 2010

Ahhh...no.
Honda's come out with several software updates for the transmission. I had my transmission reprogrammed and never had the problem again. Simple, easy, and done in a few hours. And cost me nothing.

I actually believe the opposite is true. The vast majority of Odyssey's have no problems, or very minor ones. Because of that, the complaints that people do have stand out on boards like this. But the evidence does not lie. There are years and years of Consumer Reports reliabilty data to back it up, as well as several automobile magazine long term tests on both vehicles. Given that the most reliable vehicle according to Consumer Reports on sale in the US is the Ford Fusion, I don't want to hear about "bias," which is what people who don't want to believe the data like to say.

marine2 · December 2010

" He's the first one to tell you that his seats are uncomfortable (they're brutal), the overall build quality of his van is abysmal, the handling is nothing short of awful and its slow"

I sure don't think your Father is talking about the front seats on his mini van. They are as comfortable as any other. Now the back seats are firmer, but not brutal. I have two 4,000 mile trips on mine with passengers back there that can confirm that.

The handling of the Chrysler mini vans is light, a little too lite for my liking. I like a little more road feel, but I am use to it after 5 years of driving one.

Now I have the 3.8 V-6 in mine and while it's not quite as fast as the Honda, it's anything but slow. It can peel rubber from the take off. I doubt the Honda will beat me to 60 mph by more than a couple of sec. That might make it a little slower, but it's far from being slow. The new Chrysler engines are even faster.

Now one complaint I have heard about the Chrysler mini vans that seem legitimate, is that the breaks don't last as long. I don't know if that is because they are using a softer pad or not.

While true the Honda is nicer and handles better. Chrysler vans have the versatility to them that no other van can match. So if you mostly use your van just to haul people, you picked the right van. It doesn't fit my needs at all. Obviously it doesn't it fit your Dad's. either.

ateixeira · December 2010

The Pentastar engine is now standard, even on base Caravans, and now outpowers Honda's engine.

thegraduate · December 2010

FE ratings?

ateixeira · December 2010

I haven't seen them yet, but let's see. Hopefully they at least match the Sienna's, if not Honda's. I think a 6EAT comes standard so it has a shot...

tifighter · December 2010

They are expecting 17/25, or, one mpg less than the Sienna city, 1 more mpg highway. Probably about the same mixed; not too bad for an extra roughly 20 hp.

ateixeira · December 2010

271hp, right? Top of the class.

Let's see if Kia's new mill can produce good FE numbers. It's also getting a 6 speed.

mfletou1 · December 2010

Yes, I was referring to the rear seats-not the front two. I should insert here that I drive his van all the time, so it isn't like I don't have my own frame of reference. I think the front seats are comfortable enough, actually it was a bit taller than the '07 Odyssey's which was nice for me. The '11 Odyssey remedied that problem and is the most comfortable of the four vans I've driven (the '09 Chrysler, a '11 Sienna I rented for 10 days and my two Odysseys.)

The passenger seats on the Chrysler vans are uncomfortable. I suppose brutal is a matter of taste and semantics, but in comparsion to their competitors they are significantly less comfortable.

I hate the driving dynamics of the Chrysler van. The steering wheel is comically oversized, the steering is light to the extreme, feels artificial and imprecise, the brakes don't feel very confident. The new engine will help, he also has the 3.8 and I would argue with you on that point--its slow. Its around 10 seconds to 60--in this day and age, that's slow. There's some torque steer under hard acceleration to top it off.

The dual screen entertainment system is the best in the business, hands down. I give Chrysler full credit on that. But the quality of plastic otherwise is lousy, his van is very creaky and he's had a whole bunch of little parts come loose.

As I said, if you don't regularly carry passengers but want a minivan to haul stuff and also have the ability to carry people, than that's your van. Truth be told, that's a fairly small piece of the market, but it does exist. If you usually travel with people AND cargo, then I would wouldn't bother stopping at the Chrysler, Dodge or VW dealers and go straight to Toyota and Honda. You're going to get better quality all the way around.

voiceofstl · December 2010

I have heard that when dodge introduced the ne van in 2008 that the early ones had premature front brake wear.. people had to replace the pads sometimes as low as 10,000 miles.
Is this true and has Dodge fixed the problem and what was the problem to begin with?

tifighter · December 2010

271hp, right? Top of the class.

283hp, 260lb-ft torque.

ateixeira · December 2010

I stand corrected, 271hp must be the output for the new Kia...yep, just looked it up:

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/11/11/2011-kia-sedona-gets-corporate-face-new-engin- - e/

My mix-up.

tifighter · December 2010

I have to say that the pricing of the Dodge seems pretty aggressive given the feature content, the $26k base model has things like steering wheel audio controls and tri-zone temperature that Honda doesn't make available until you get to the $31k EX. You have to move up for power doors, however.

mfletou1 · December 2010

My dad's 2009 was shot in the teens. His rear's last until about 30k. The problem, quite simply: cheap brakes.

Had the same thing in my wife's 2004 Chevy Malibu Maxx. Rotors were either resurfaced or replaced 7 times in less than 25k miles. Service advisor had a simple explanation: cheap materials, poor quality, not meant to hold up to the type of traffic she was driving it in. GM made them put the OEM grade stuff on as replacements which simple resulted in the same problem 2-3k later.

In my 2002 Oldsmobile Intrigue, I went through like 4 steering shafts. Same thing. Part wasn't designed right from the get go, but GM never fixed it. Dealer had to keep putting the same busted part on--they knew it was a joke and apologized every time. Funny thing is, when I traded it for my 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid, early on I noticed the same kind of steering shaft problem. This was a very early build on the new (current) body style. When I brought it into the dealer, they said oh yes, Toyota just sent out a TSB on this, the steering shaft has a flaw in it. They've redesigned the part. The new part installed a day or so later, and 70k miles later its been flawless (and that's been the only unscheduled trip to the dealer.)

And you wonder why I switched to Honda and Toyota...

marine2 · December 2010

According to Edmonds, Honda speed,

This performance is considerably quicker than that of the Odyssey, which requires 8.8 seconds to reach 60 mph (8.5 seconds with 1 foot of rollout like on a drag strip) and goes through the quarter-mile in 16.6 seconds at 84.8 mph.

http://www.insideline.com/toyota/sienna/2011/2011-toyota-sienna-vs-2010-honda-od- - yssey-minivan-comparison.html

Automotive - Eric's Autos: Reviewing the 2010 Dodge Caravan ...Jun 10, 2010 ... It also comes with the six-speed automatic. This engine delivers very good acceleration (0-60 in about 8.8 seconds) for a minivan. ...
www.arcamax.com/automotive/s-744030-123987 - Cached

marine2 · December 2010

You may also want to look up the 2011 Dodge mini van on the internet, it will have major changes. One will be the biggest new engine, thicker, solfter middle seats, better handling, along with a new dash, upgrade material and face lift front and back.

mfletou1 · December 2010

Wrong model. That test is a 2010. 2011 is lighter, geared differently and thus quicker. The Sienna is still quicker, no doubt, but Car and Driver has the 6-speed at 7.4 seconds which isn't shabby. The EX-L should come in at around 7.9.

marine2 · December 2010

That wasn't with Chrysler's new engine either. I wouldn't call this slow either. Besides we're talking about mini vans not racing cars. Most people are looking for a mini van with enough power to pull out into trafic, or safely pass. Not race. I'd say anything under 8 sec. is darn fast enough for anyone.

2011 Chrysler Town & Country
Base Engine 3.6L/280-hp DOHC V-6*
Optional Engine None
Drivetrain Front engine, FWD, 6A
0-60 MPH 7.6 sec*
Seats/Foldway 7/2nd, 3rd rows
EPA city/hwy fuel econ 18/26 mpg*
Basic warranty 3 yrs/36,000 miles
Safety ABS: S; Stab: S; Trac: S; Airbags: 4
*Estimated

ateixeira · December 2010

While I agree, having reserve power is nice for those heavy loads.

Those tests are an empty van with just a driver. It would be nice to see them measured with 1200 lbs of payload.

marine2 · December 2010

Well one thing is for sure. Chrysler mini vans have a bigger and better engine. The new ones have been upgraded inside and out. They can do anything any other mini van can do except haul 8 passengers, which I never needed to do. They will still do two things no other mini van will do. They will haul just about anything that will fit inside and do it in a minutes notice, with no pre-planning. That's important to people like me who some times carry electric scooters, haul furniture for my kids, or I see something I like at a store, but had no intention of buying when I went there. A Chrysler mini van is ready to carry anything you want, from people to building supplies. It can hide all kinds of things in their big storage bins and keep their vans looking neat alll the time. That is such a huge plus for me. It's two giant pluses no other mini van has.

ateixeira · December 2010

I'm looking forward to checking out the new vans, probably at the DC Auto Show in early January.

For me the 3 seats in the middle row was crucial - we had a nanny, and that's also where the dog goes, more recently.

My Sienna's 2nd row seat tumble forward, so it comes close. I'm not sure if the new ones still do that, though. Toyota actually removed some of the versatility - I'm not sure if the front passenger seat folds flat any more (mine does), and the 3rd row no longer tail gates (mine does).

If I'm right, that's 3 strikes. Toyota is moving in the wrong direction.

marine2 · December 2010

For me, those middle seats folding into the floor is a must. About twice a month, I carry either my Mom's or Sister's electric cart. Some times I have both and I couldn't get them in if they only partially folded. About 90% of the time I keep the one middle, passenger side seat stowed and that is where my dog sets. Plus if I have to load something not to big, loading it from the side is much easier. The only reason I sold my truck and bought this mini van was because of stow n go. My brother has had them for years, but taking those seats out was a pain. This gives me lots of room, comfort, hiding places and versatility I never had with my truck or cars. I can get more in than I could with my truck, as I can stack higher, without worrying something will fall out. I have the best of both worlds.

tsu670 · December 2010

Just opened Dec '10 issue of Smart Money magazine. Inside front cover is 2-page spread of new Odyssey minivan.

I've noticed this in other print ads, as well. They try to hide or otherwise disguise the "lightening bolt" on the rear sides. In this example, they had the page break occur right at that point on the van. Pic looks as if magazine folks made error trying to line up left page with right. In another print ad, the marketing types pictured the van with the sliding door open so the "lightening bolt" was covered.

It is as if when given the project to advertise the car the marketing firm was saying, "Ok, but it would sure be a lot easier if you changed the design of those side panels!"

ateixeira · December 2010

Just opened Dec '10 issue of Smart Money magazine

Can you do me a small favor?

Check if there is an article in there named "Car Tech on the Cheap"?

I'm quoted in the on-line version, but I'll pick up a print version if the story also appears there.

tsu670 · December 2010

A. J., your article is in the January '11 print issue. - Ken

ateixeira · December 2010

Thanks! I'll grab one.

ateixeira · December 2010

Autoblog First Drive:

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/12/16/2011-nissan-quest-first-drive-review-road-tes- t/

PDF Press Kit for more details:

http://www.nissannews.com/newsrelease.do?id=2084&mid=

My impressions:

Good

Boxy = space efficient
Nice interior
Clever folding 2nd/3rd row seats
Piping on the seats is pimpin'

Bad

last decade power/torque levels with no mpg edge
6" shorter wheelbase?
Cargo length is just 86.5"

That means it's a good 10 inches (!) shorter than the vans that can carry a sheet of plywood inside. I've done that in a Sienna, so I know it's 96" plus. I think Dodge and Honda can also do that.

So it's a smaller van, with middling power. I'm a bit disappointed, to be honest.

Could be just the ticket for people looking for something a bit smaller/nicer.

tifighter · December 2010

Could be just the ticket for people looking for something a bit smaller/nicer.

That's the problem...it isn't smaller at all. Its actually longer than the Sienna by about 1/2 an inch, and only a 1/2 inch narrower. Plus it is 2.5 inches taller.

When I first heard this was based on the Elgrand, I hoped that the JDM platform might give us a slightly more compact and easier to park van. Didn't happen.

ateixeira · December 2010

Where'd the 10 inches go?

Bad packaging by Nissan. Fail.

ateixeira · December 2010

Well, see for yourself.

gs451 · December 2010

Hi everyone,
I am selling my Nissan Armada to Carmax pretty soon. For now, I need a small minivan/SUV that is not too old/not too high on mileage to be a daily driver and to be used occasionally for long trips. I know that I can't be too rough with it and have very high expectations, but I was wondering what will be the best option for me in terms of overall use on the long term (reliability, fuel efficiency, safety, problems etc.). It seems all the Japanese vans (Sienna, Odyssey, MPV, Quest) all have some type of trnasmission issues. Are american vans just as bad or if not worse? How is the pilot or any other SUV from Suzuki/Mitsubishi. Space isn't a big concern for me as I just need it to haul my 2 kids. I'm a pretty good driver and just want something that is safe to use (ratings, etc.) and won't leave me stranded.

Considering my price point, it would probably have to be something with horrible depreciaiton. I feel at this price point though, everything has lost all the value it was going to use.

Your responses are appreciated.

Thaks and Happy Holidays!

sebring95 · December 2010

You'll get far more bang for your buck with a minivan over an SUV. Of course the next question is...do you really need a minivan for two kids? You've already said space isnt' an issue...and these "mini" vans are about the same size as a full-size SUV. Our Odyssey is within inches of the Tahoe it replaced but has far more space on the inside though.

An Odyssey in your price range is too old and high miles. I would look for a nice Caravan (maybe even the shorty version if you don't need a lot of features) or a Chevy Uplander. You can likely get something in the 2005-2006 range if you shop carefully or work the private market.

ateixeira · December 2010

It seems all the Japanese vans (Sienna, Odyssey, MPV, Quest) all have some type of trnasmission issues

That's a myth.

Odys trannys have been fine since about 2004 or so. I doubt you're shopping for something 2003 or older.

Siennas never had trans problems. In fact Toyota waited to put the 6EAT in the Sienna only after early issues were resolved, so used ones go with the proven 5 speed automatic.

I think either of those, used, would be fine for you. May be overkill with 2 kids, though. Consider a Mazda5 or Kia Rondo, which are a tad smaller. Ford will bring the C-Max soon, also.

tifighter · December 2010

I would keep an eye out for a Kia Rondo; they depreciate quickly and have very good reliability ratings. However, even one of those will be a stretch at this price point....I've seen ex-rentals down to $8500 so that's still high. Maybe a 04-06 Mazda MPV if you can find one?

ateixeira · December 2010

Yup - steep depreciation means the first owner paid it off, you get it dirt cheap.

gs451 · December 2010

Thanks for the responses guys. I had thought that the First Generation Sienna had some type of issue with sludging and tranny issues. My dad had the 2002 Odyssey and Honda was gracious enough to fix his issues for free as they extended the warranty for him. But I should not look at anything earlier than 2003?

With regards to two kids, I should have specified, I have two kids but we occasionally go out as a family on long trips (6-7 hours) and need the space then...but that is honestly 10% of the time. Most of the time a sedan does the job for us. How are the Suzuki and Mitsubishi SUV's?

Anything to watch out for on the Rondo or Mazda MPV? How is the Sedona as well (2005/2006 models)? Any reliability/engine issues?

I know every car will age, but I just want something reliable for day to day inner city driving. I am in the Orange County, California area and I will look at Public Motor Auctions..would you guys advise not to? Any reputable used car places to go besides CarMax?

Thanks again for all the help! Merry Christmas!

ateixeira · December 2010

For both Sienna and Ody, a good rule of thumb is 2004 or newer. No sludge (2% were affected per Automotive News, but why risk it?), no trans issues.

tsu670 · December 2010

Got around to reading Dec. 6, 2010 issue of newsweek. Inside the back cover is a Honda ad. Three vehicles pictured: CR-V, Pilot and Odyssey. Get this. Lots of room to display each vehicle in it's entirety, but the marketing types chose to position the Pilot such that it's front covered the rear quarter panel (lightening bolt area) of the Odyssey. Hillarious!

marine2 · December 2010

Well if your not just looking for a passenger hauler, you can't beat the versatility of the Chrysler mini vans

ateixeira · January 2011

I'm not sure whether this is cool, or total overkill:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/01/11/zf-developed-nine-speed-transmission-is-comin- g/

Wow!

ateixeira · January 2011

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/12/23/kia-bringing-kv7-gull-wing-concept-to-detroit- /

I hope that's the vision for their next van.

They got the powertrain upgraded, but let's face it, their van is sad looking. I test drove one anyway, but this concept looks a thousand times better.

Note the rear window echoes the grille design, a neat styling cue.

Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

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