Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

denver5357 · February 2005

"The Honda Ody is a very good van. Up there with the top 3 or 4 on the market.But, fun and exciting to drive? Not by a long shot.To me it was about as exciting to drive as my dads old Dodge Dart."

I'm not one who chooses to race my Ody, either, but I will say that the Ody -- to me, and apparently to many others, based on reviews and posts -- drove "sportier" than any of the other vans I drove (other finalists were Sienna and T&C). Now, "sportier" is relative here. I'm not talking compared to a true sports car. But compared to the floaty and very floaty and leaning-in-corners drive of the other vans, the Ody feels sporty. I understand the point there.

That said, hitting 90 in my Ody will only happen if I am drooped out of the back of a cargo plane.

macakava · February 2005

Craig,

thanks.

Were that guy in the Sedona who was trying to hustle me off the ramp to I-40?

Mac

marine2 · February 2005

Nice post denver5357. I too, have no intention of racing my van. I just wanted to show a certain individual, that with all his high tech Odyssey talk, the Odyssey is not that much faster and doesn't get that much better mileage than my old tech Dodge. He made it sound like all the other vans would be left in his dust. That just isn't so.

While I truly like the Odyssey. I think it's a great looking van inside and has a lot of good features. And even though my new Dodge has a worn body style, it still has some good features of it's own. It rides pretty smooth and is pretty quiet. Has enough get up and go for me.( I mean come on, we're talking about mini vans here, not sport cars.) The front seats fit like a glove and it has a great stereo in it. I can drive for hundreds of miles and not get uncomfortable in it.

Unlike any other mini van, I don't have to worry if I'm out and see something I like to buy, having to go home and take out the middle seats and then drive back to get it. I'm always ready.

It has a nice overhead computer,garage door opener,temp. and compass. Power diver's seat and power window, doors and power tailgate. Everything I could want in a mini van.

As for sporty handling, I am use to driving big cars like the Eagle Vision, Chrysler New Yorker and Ford LTD. I don't want sporty handling.

macakava · February 2005

"As for sporty handling, I am use to driving big cars like the Eagle Vision, Chrysler New Yorker and Ford LTD. I don't want sporty handling."

As I strongly suspected... the Detroit floaty thing! Which strongly influenced your choice.

marine2 · February 2005

"As for sporty handling, I am use to driving big cars like the Eagle Vision, Chrysler New Yorker and Ford LTD. I don't want sporty handling."

As I strongly suspected... the Detroit floaty thing! Which strongly influenced your choice.

Right on. If I wanted a sporty ride I would have bought a new Dodge Charger, not a mini van. I want to be comfortable on long trips. I want to sink into the seats and have a smooth,quiet ride. Sporty handling would be at the bottom of my wants.

denver5357 · February 2005

"Right on. If I wanted a sporty ride I would have bought a new Dodge Charger, not a mini van. I want to be comfortable on long trips. I want to sink into the seats and have a smooth,quiet ride. Sporty handling would be at the bottom of my wants."

Valid view, for sure. My situation is that 98% of my driving in the van is for short or "typical" trips, which I would guess is true for most people. Only have so much vacation time a year, you know. So I really like the sporty handling and ride. And really, I don't know that it will bother me on a long trip. Longest trip so far has been 90 minutes and I haven't noticed any comfort issues.

asafonov · February 2005

After 70 mph, the DGC becomes breathless and kicks up a rattle - like saying "Why are you bothering with me?"

Umm, no. With all due respect.

While I agree that the Ody is "sportier" (in the minivan context), the DGC cruises comfortably for hours at 75-80mph.

masterpaul1 · February 2005

I owned a 1977 LTD and 1986 Lincoln Town Car that had a floaty soft ride. I enjoyed both vechicles. But our DGC has a very stiff and stable ride, even when making turns. Our van has sport like handling as well, even when loaded with six people. I like how the inside floor slops down from the back to the front of the van. (Even though from the outside it is leveled). I'm just curious though, what are the RPM's when you are cursing at 65, 70 & 80 MPH?

macakava · February 2005

"While I agree that the Ody is "sportier" (in the minivan context), the DGC cruises comfortably for hours at 75-80mph."

Not as willingly as the Ody and Sienna! It screams loudly, "Why are you pushing me that hard?" Whereas the Ody and Sienna want/are happy to play there and higher. I know since I have rented over 50 DGC and T & C's in 18 months all over the nation.

macakava · February 2005

On the fifth gear, the Ody gives you 35.2mph/1000rpm.

So at 65, 70, and 80mph, engine revs are

1847, 1988, 2272 RPM respectively, which is way below its willing redline of 6250 RPM

97xpresso · February 2005

But only near the redline is the only place you get any torque.

macakava · February 2005

Max torque is at 4500 RPM, 2000RPM away from redline. So you have a long ways to go.

But remember the Ody is a willing to rev like a refined sewing machine(that melodic sound is a joy to hear), unlike others which play up rackety, cacophonic noises of resistance!

carzzz · February 2005

"the DGC cruises comfortably for hours at 75-80mph"

really? Seat on any seat on the 3rd row! i found that the DC/DGC get a floaty/boaty at about 50+ mph... 75-80mph might be good for the 1st and perhaps 2nd row, definitely not the 3rd row! i would rather have harsh ride than a boaty ride!

chris65amg · February 2005

"But remember the Ody is a willing to rev like a refined sewing machine(that melodic sound is a joy to hear), unlike others which play up rackety, cacophonic noises of resistance!""

My mother's Sienna and my sisters DGC don't make any of those noises, and they are both fine cars. In all seriousness, though, these are minivans. I really think that it's great that you love the Oddyssey, but I would prefer a Sienna because it has a softer suspension and the Oddyssey's seats hurt my.... self after about ten minutes (Sometimes I wish I wasn't the car junky in the family; I get dragged on test drives all of the time)
The Odd is nice in its own respect, but a lot of people want oodles of refinement from their vans. It's the same Camry or Accord choice in my view.

Comfort= go for Camry
Sport= go for Accord

In reality, I believe that the only bad vans out there are the GM and Ford ones. Well, not bad but just not as good.

jipster · February 2005

Mac...are you Ody 1 reincarnated?
You sound more like isellhondas to me!

If you minivan shoppers want a fun ,sporty ride with sporty handling AND is sporty to look at...then you need to check out the hot sporty Mazda MPV. Mazda says it has the soul of a sports car, and I believe them! I took a 90 degree turn on a highway exit ramp the other day at 120mph...my kids barely flew out the window. They thought they were at DisneyWorld. So, if you want a fun sporty minivan mac...you need to TRADE UP and get yourself a nice Mazda MPV.

dulnev · February 2005

It certainly is that. We had a 2002 MPV ES and loved the car-like handling! We now have 2005 Ody Touring and it's noticeably heftier.

craigmri · February 2005

Jip,

You cant possibly be right about that. Mac is right and thats that ;-)

Craig
'04 Sedona EX

hansienna · February 2005

MPV may be sporty but can the 3.0L V6 built by Ford honestly be called "the soul of a sports car" ?
Too bad Mazda doesn't use a real Mazda engine in the MPV.

mot · February 2005

While I think the Stow-N-Go seats are a wonderful idea, they aren't as much of a benefit for many of us with kids who are typically with when we're out shopping. We wouldn't be able to stow the seats whenever they're with so we need to plan in advance when thinking about buying something that requires the additional space. We choose the '05 Odyssey as we felt it fit our needs best. While we found the front seats of the DGC very comfortable, the 2nd and 3rd row comfort was not the same level as the Odyssey. To each their own.

macakava · February 2005

We all have to put the vehicles in their right category and perspective.

And in the minivan category, the Ody is tops in overall performance and handling.

Just look at all the awards for C & D, CR, Money, Kiplingers, to name a few.

If one grew up in Detroit iron, especially from 2 - 3 decades ago, then he/she will likely prefer a floaty/boaty ride.

Following your example,

Floaty/soft ride = Go for Sienna
Sporty Handling = Go for Ody

They are both fine vehicles for quality and reliability - so you cannot go wrong in choosing either. I just prefer the sportier handling like the car magazines prefer so much as well. It makes the drive more enjoyable and engaging if you are that inclined.

hansienna · February 2005

Agree that 2005 Odyssey 2nd and 3rd row seats are more comfortable than the 2005 GC or T&C "Stow-N-Go".
The flat floor for the driver and front passenger plus the comfortable driver's left foot rest of the Odyssey are reasons the Odyssey front seats also more comfortable.
I also like the location of the Odyssey spare tire better than GC/T&C with Stow-N-Go.

macakava · February 2005

The MPV may be good handling vehicle too. ZOOM ZOOM ZOOM as per the ads! But I did not consider it for many reasons:
1.)Too small for my liking. Reminds me of those minivans I see in Japan that appear to come out squished between a vise grip. I prefer a larger size for flexibility purposes.
2.)Underpowered vs the Ody. 200hp vs 255hp(3L vs 3.5L) just would not cut it for me. Yes, I love ponies!
3.) Not much price difference for same equipment
4.) Lower reliability rating compared to Ody or Sienna.
5.) Lower residual value
6.) Somehow I get the feeling that the Ford ownersship influence on Mazda may have a negative quality factor just as I think the French Renault influence would have on Nissan in the long term. Time will tell

macakava · February 2005

Just remember FORD means either,
Fix or repair daily

OR

Found on road dead.

That was indeed the case with my past Windstar and many other Ford car owners.

That Ford influence would eventually work itself into Mazda. In fact the Mazda 6, though a great handling car, has already gone into that lower than average reliability already per CR and is not recommended.

jipster · February 2005

LOL Craig. But I'm going to try anyhow.

Hans, your right about the Mazda's engine. It is built by Ford, but it is tweaked and modified by Mazda.And it is suppose to be one of Fords best engines.But, I do agree that a Mazda engine would have been much nicer.The Ford Duratec 3.0 does have nice midrange torque though.And it has been proven to be durable and reliable.

Mac, you sound like you really like a big van to party in.But, allow me to address your points on the MPV.1)The smaller size of the MPV is just right for my family of 4.It's easier to park and manuver and handles really well.2)I agree it is underpowered compared to the Ody and Sienna.And yeah, what guy wouldn't like 30,40,90 more ponies...But,it has more than enough power to suit our needs. 3)You are off on the price though. While the MSRP may be similar between the Ody and MPV base models, you can get an 2004 MPV for invoice minus $4,000-$5,000 in rebates and incentives. So, a comparably equipped MPV can be had for about $4,500-$5,500 less than an Ody.
4)Reliability,until the problem with the programming on the transmisions, had been the best.My van was not affected.I feel the next reports on reliability will return the MPV back to the top.5)yes, lower residual value. 6)The MPV is built in Hiroshima, Japan.I feel the quality,workmanship and fit and finish of the MPV is second to none. Ford,needs to know when not to mess with a good thing.The Mazda 3 is doing really well and has won many awards. The Mazda 5 crossover is creating a lot of excitement as well.I believe it is due out this fall.

rytrom · February 2005

I'm looking for a Chrysler TC LX 2001-2003 year with up to 40T miles and around 12-14T including taxes and all papers. I ran around all Chrysler stores and they have either too young cars or too old ones. One car suited us fine was LXi and he wanted 15T for altogether. It had leather and elecro doors and DVD that we didn't want to pay for:-) When I check TC at any non Chrysler store they don't give even limited warranty what drove me to a question if it makes sense to buy such a car from a dillerstore. Is it a common practice to buy a car from owners and not diller stores? If yes then where to look for such ad? Any other ideas?

97xpresso · March 2005

"Mazda says it has the soul of a sports car, and I believe them! I took a 90 degree turn on a highway exit ramp the other day at 120mph...my kids barely flew out the window. They thought they were at DisneyWorld."

Great reply to the speed demon in the Honda!!

craigmri · March 2005

I'll give Mac some credit....he sure has gotten this thread hoppin'.

Craig
'04 Sedona EX
Not a sportscar Minivan

nwng · March 2005

And you didn't even mention the roll cage and 5 point harness for everyone

badgerfan · March 2005

Others have disputed your statements about effects of different 0-60 performance, but here are some facts.

One van that can accelerate from 0-60 in 8 seconds travels 352 feet, with an average acceleration rate of 11 ft/sec^2

The second van that can accelerate from 0-60 in 9 seconds, will travel 313 feet in the same 8 seconds as the above van, with an average acceleration rate of 9.78 ft/sec^2.

Thus, side by side, the faster van after 8 seconds is 39 feet ahead of the slower one, or a little more than two car lengths. Significant, but not huge. And in the real world, just how many times do you get a chance to accelerate wide open throttle? Almost never.

Disclaimer: The above assumes the rate of acceleration is constant, which, with varying engine speeds and wind loads, will not be the case in the real world as engine torque is not linear throughout engine speed range, transmission shift points come into importance, and wind load becomes important near the top velocities and is very non linear.

macakava · March 2005

Hey Badger,

I was not going to go that level of detail in the calculations. I remember doing these calculations way back in high school days or first year college engineering! It has been that long!

It was just to illustrate that at 60mph(or 88'/sec), 1 sec would translate to 88 feet.

As the faster vehicle gets to 60 mph, the slower would be at a lower speed at that specific time and not standing still. So the distance would be shorter.

Obviously you are math minded to have commented as such.

macakava · March 2005

Hey Jipster,

It takes people like us who like great handling vehicles to appreciate and drive the Ody and MPV up to and close to their limits.

Those who are not so inclined, have correctly found their ways into "lesserlings" like the Sedona that leans sideways like a beached whale when cornering.

supcrds · March 2005

2.)Underpowered vs the Ody. 200hp vs 255hp(3L vs 3.5L) just would not cut it for me. Yes, I love ponies!

MPV
curb weight:3772 lb
hp :200
torque :200

ODY :4537
hp :255
torque :250

Any one out there know the 0 to 60 on these two. I have a hard time thinking that the ODY is much faster with an extra 765 Lbs. I am guessing about even.

carzzz · March 2005

lol... 120 mph... how often u get this kind of night/day dream?
Odyssey top speed: 117 mph (government limit)
Also, i would think a mazda sport car miata would roll-over at 120 mph on a 90 degree turn(except in Need For Speed Underground)! lol

jipster · March 2005

Like mac said...We have a need...a need for speed!
AND sporty handling! ;-)

marine2 · March 2005

"Like mac said...We have a need...a need for speed!
AND sporty handling! ;-)"

May I suggest you guys buy a sports car then? If I had a need for speed, it sure wouldn't be in a mini van. But to each his own I guess.

macakava · March 2005

The Ody will do 0 - 60 in about 7.3 secs and the Sienna at 7.4 secs per C & D. These numbers are better than many sport sedans out there. I have not seen any numbers on the MPV, but based on the extracted paragraphs below from Edmunds.com, it is probably much slower. I will only know if someone tries to hustle my Ody with an MPV on an off-ramp. LOL.

"Despite the freshened interior and exterior and Mazda's claim that the MPV has the soul of a sports car, we feel there is too much body roll when cornering to merit a sporty label. In our recent minivan comparison test, we said the Honda Odyssey was "the BMW of minivans" and the MPV has not shaken our confidence in that statement. The MPV does offer nicely weighted, quick steering that gives it a sporty feel around town, but our slalom test revealed that the sportiness is only skin-deep. The MPV is smaller overall than most minivans, making it slightly more maneuverable and easy to live with in crowded areas, but it still falls short in overall driving dynamics.

While Mazda's incremental improvements have added to the value and alternative nature of this minivan, it's the mechanical elements that really need Mazda's attention. The 200-hp engine provides barely adequate acceleration when judged on its own merits, but jump into a Honda, Nissan or Toyota minivan and the difference in power alone is obvious. The 3.0-liter V6 also lacks refinement and is quite noisy under heavy acceleration. We know Mazda can do better as the engines in the 3, 6 and the Miata are much smoother and more civilized. Even the old Millenia motor was much better than the current MPV power plant."

macakava · March 2005

The Ody is just one of 5 vehicles in our household. Since I want a minivan for flexibility and practicality and I like an engaging drive, the minivan must be fun to drive, agile, and fast for its class.

The Ody fits those requirements to a T. The Sienna comes close in acceleration but is less fun to drive. Both are great vehicles!

Now, my next project would be to get the Chrysler 300C SRT8 with the 425HP 6.1L Hemi which becomes available in summer. It is a bargain at about $40K. The 5.7L Hemi version handles very well for a large car and is fun to drive - which is likely due to the Benz suspension. Just knowing that you have the confidence to blow the socks off almost anyone at a traffic light to 60mph if you want to is a great feeling.

bluedevils · March 2005

The Kia Sedona will do 122mph before giving up the ghost. If the Odyssey does only 117mph top speed as stated above, one can therefore conclude that the Sedona is the driver's minivan and the Ody isn't.

macakava · March 2005

Oops! Wishful thinking! Very much so!

Very interesting...

SOme folks are fooled that because a vehicle's speedometer has a 160mph range, that the vehicle can do 160mph. Many vehicles are limited(governor) to certain upper speed limits only because of the speed safety ratings of the tires, not because the vehicle cannot go faster.

Like as stated in the recent Edmunds long term report on the 2005 Ody, there are indeed some folks who have been "living under the bassinet for the past 5 years"

lastwraith · March 2005

I don't think anyone with a modicum of intelligence assumes that just because their minivan's speedo goes to 160 that the vehicle will actually DO 160MPH.

And while I have neglected to respond to idiotic statements made here recently: "Many vehicles are limited(governor) to certain upper speed limits only because of the speed safety ratings of the tires, not because the vehicle cannot go faster."

macakava, if they are limited by governor to a certain top end speed then they will in fact, not go above that governed speed, no matter what the reason for the governor is. So unless you are saying we should throw modded chips into the Ody to release it from it's governed top speed, then it doesn't matter why it is governed....it still will not exceed that speed.

Officially, I agree with the past poster....macakava, your van is the best. Now please stop posting stupidity about outrunning people on the offramp doing 90mph in your family vehicle.

deepan · March 2005

from the above numbers the ody is 18.1 lb/hp
whereas the MPV is 18.8lbs/hp

davenow · March 2005

>>Officially, I agree with the past poster....macakava, your van is the best. Now please stop posting stupidity about outrunning people on the offramp doing 90mph in your family vehicle.<<

...with the kids in the back...

lol

this board is way too fun!!!:) Whoo WHOO!!!

macakava · March 2005

If you are so inclined to do so, you can reprogram the EPROM if you want to, FYI. Thinking out of the BOX.

Then, you would be in the forum category of "Where are the high performance minivans"

See ya at the off-ramp...

rorr · March 2005

Um, not to pick nits or anything....but the Ody is at 17.8 lbs/hp (4537lbs/255hp). Perhaps you used the 250 ft-lbs of torque rating instead?

mrblonde49 · March 2005

Was looking at the 2005 Cars issue yesterday.

In the Vehicle profiles, they have the 2005 Odyssey, which came out in October, with a reliability rating of a half red circle. Yet, if you look at other cars such as the new GM minivans and Grand Cherokee, released a month later, as well as other vehicles that came out much earlier, like the Equinox and the 300, that all have a reliability rating of "new". How can CR determine the reliability of a completely redesigned minivan, especially one with VCM, in a few months? If you say it's because the previous one was reliable, then it doesn't account for the ratings of other redesigned cars not being available. Another example is the last section, with the reliability for each year. Under Grand Cherokee, for Predicted reliability, it says "redesigned for 2005". For the Odyssey, it has the half red star

Something smells fishy...

denver5357 · March 2005

Typically if a car is redesigned for a new model year (vs. an entirely new model), CR will say something like "Redesigned for 2005 but based on past reliability ratings for this model we expect reliability to be similar."

For NEW cars -- and all the examples you site seem to be new -- then CR will say "new."

mrblonde49 · March 2005

"For NEW cars -- and all the examples you site seem to be new -- then CR will say "new." "

I thought that may have been it initially, wehen I looked at the Equinox and 300, but the GM minivans and the Grand Cherokees are redesigned models. Yet they say "new". Like I said, something doesn't seem right...

marine2 · March 2005

"Typically if a car is redesigned for a new model year (vs. an entirely new model), CR will say something like "Redesigned for 2005 but based on past reliability ratings for this model we expect reliability to be similar."

But this model Honda is all new. New engine and new transmission, new body.It should also have been rated as Reedesigned for 2005

lastwraith · March 2005

I'm sorry but unless you have been lurking in the civic board too long, adding a modded chip to your minivan does not make it anywhere near high performance. What intense01 did to his bonneville in the bonneville forum, or the 7.0L twin-turbocharged Fairmont that my friend drools over is high performance. These are completely overhauled vehicles that smash acceleration rates, hold on the skidpad like they have a death-grip, and can stop hard enough to throw you from the car. High performance means the total package: ridiculous acceleration, intense stopping, tuned suspension, excellent roadholding, and a capable transmission to distribute all that power. Minivans by their nature would require nearly a complete tear-down to approach high performance. Throwing a chip into an overweight, aerodynamically challenged big metal box does not make it high-performance.

If you want easy high performance, go get a WRX STI and call it a day. And leave the minivan for the trips to see your aunty Mildred.

craigmri · March 2005

Lastwraith,

Mac's Oddyssey is high performance. We all agree'd to that already in addition all our Minivans are garbage. He feels better this way so we just go along with it. Anyone who brags about racing other minivans is obviously a very serious minivan enthusiast.

Craig
'04 Sedona EX
Special racing stripes
dual exhaust
supercharger
nitrous
tinted windows
armor all on the tires

Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles