Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

tmalik · May 2005

Hi all, need some help. Looking to buy a minivan to hold our growing family (have a 2 yr old and 4 yr old), and I'm trying to work on a budget of Canadian $ 15k. Have looked at what I can get in the Toronto market for this cash and generally the decision has come down to these two:

1 - 2002/03 Caravan with 30-50k miles and maybe 2-3 yrs of powertrain warranty and some protection under the Chrysler 'Certified' used car program.

2 - 1999-2000 Oddysey or Sienna with 80-100k miles and no warranty.

The van will be 100% daily suburban driven by my wife, not more than 10k miles a year, and not many long trips. We likely won't hold on to it for more than 5 years. My estimate is that the Caravan will depreciate about $2k more over the course of 5 years. The big unknown is repair cost. I'm hesitant to purchase a Honda with 80k miles already on it. A low-mileage 2002-2003 Toyota or Honda would cost closer to Canadian $25,000, out of our price range.

Any thoughts? Would you choose Japanese reliability, even with an extra 3 yrs on the minivan? Thanks!

marine2 · May 2005

I hate the way Dodge makes you *pay* for safety features - ABS is extra, side airbags is extra, gimme a break. That's one thing the european car makers are cool about. Even the base model VW has all the safety features and is loaded with airbags & ABS.

Dodge makes a model for most every pocketbook. Sure you can get a lot of those safety features standard on other cars and vans on their base model, but you pay for it in a higher price. Some people do not want to pay that extra amount. There is an old saying, "You don't get something for nothing."

marine2 · May 2005

I think you should be able to get a 2005 Caravan base model for about $17,000 with air and am'fm/cd

tmalik · May 2005

marine2 - yes, a base Caravan can be bought for around US$17,000 (or around 20,000 Canadian dollars), but my budget is around 12,000 US dollars (or 15,000 Canadian dollars), so a new minivan is out of the question. That's why I'm looking at the used market.

str · May 2005

Ok, we are considering a Toyota Sienna or a Montana SV6. Just a few minutes ago I read two articles stating that the 2006 Sienna is going to have front end changes as well as tail light changes and inside gauge changes. I also found out that the Montana will have added features such as more safety features for the back seat riders and small details like color changes and a rear window wiper (lots more too numerous to mention.) So now we are faced with the dilemma of waiting another, I don't know, however long until the 2006's come out or buying a 2005 and accomidating our family immediately (we are really ok in our Envoy but would like the conveniences of a minivan) then possibly being outdated and wishing we had some of the new features. What to do? Has anyone else heard about these changes? When do 2006 models debut?

jipster · May 2005

You must have been looking in the wrong column or something when researching the MPV crash test results. NHTSA gave the MPV a Five-Star safety rating, the highest, in frontal and side impacts.

deepan · May 2005

typically around the Aug time frame. any changes would be minor cosmetic i would imagine.

sistereinstein · May 2005

Hello to everyone!

Right now I'm researching minivan market to replace my aging 92 Caravan.

My main complaint with this minivan is the impossible seat removal and would like to get another minivan that has stowaway seating on either both rows or just third row.

Basically my question is - when was the stowaway seating first introduced? I'm hoping that this will help narrow my search range.

Thanks in advance for your advice

badgerfan · May 2005

Two row "Stow and Go" seating was introduced for the 2005 Model year Dodge and Chrysler long wheel base minivans. It was an early introduction for the 2005 model year, first started shipping about March or April, 2004.

Caution, not all 2005 model year long wheel base Dodege and Chrysler minivans have this feature, however. The lower level base models may not have this feature.

charlotte7 · May 2005

When is the end of the 2005 model year for most manufacturers? I'm looking at getting a minivan at the end of this summer (or a Chevy HHR or Mazda 5, though I suspect both of thse will get disqualified for various things) and am wondering when the best time is to get the end-of-model-year rebates and discounts.

sistereinstein · May 2005

Thank you badgerfan!

Just to clarify, this topic covers all minivans that implemented the stowaway seating, and is not specific to Dodge.

Also the stowaway feature seems to have a lot of different names so my use of this term is because it's the one I remember.

rorr · May 2005

AFAIK, virtually every new model minivan on the market has some form of stowable seating for the 3rd row. Some manufacturer's offer split 3rd row stowable seating; some offer 3rd row seating which can essentially be rotated to face the tailgate (seating for tailgate parties). The ease of use varies somewhat between the manufacturers.

At this time, I think only the DC minivans and Nissan offer any form of stowable 2nd row seating.

Why be concerned with when stowaway seating was first introduced? I know Honda has offered it in their Odyssey since 1999. I know that Mazda has had it for several years in their MPV as well as Nissan in their Quest. For that matter, I'm certain that some form of stowaway seating was available in domestic station wagons as far back as the 50's.

sistereinstein · May 2005

"Why be concerned with when stowaway seating was first introduced? I know Honda has offered it in their Odyssey since 1999. I know that Mazda has had it for several years in their MPV as well as Nissan in their Quest. For that matter, I'm certain that some form of stowaway seating was available in domestic station wagons as far back as the 50's"

Rorr-- I'm aware of the rumble seating you're referring to. I'm speaking specifically on the minivans.

You're on the right track, though. I want a minivan and also want the stowaway seating but cannot afford a brand new vehicle.

I'm also wondering now if getting the stowaway feature would be giving up on comfort for functionality. Any thoughts?

rorr · May 2005

Ah, now your question regarding when the stowaway seating was introduced makes a lot more sense.

Re - seat comfort. As far as the 3rd row goes, I don't think the stowaway feature causes any loss in seat comfort. All the wells which receive the seat seem to be fairly deep so the designers don't really have to make many compromises in comfort to make the seat stowable. The 2nd row is a bit different as the available space to receive the folded seat is a little less. How much it affects 2nd row seat comfort seems to vary from backside to backside. You're best bet would be to try one out and judge the comfort for yourself.

badgerfan · May 2005

Note that the second row in the Nissan Quest does not fold completely flush as it does in the Dodge/Chrysler Stow and Go. Thus on the Nissan, this may not be as nice as having a completely flat load floor when the seats are stowed.

Also, you have to put up with an awful dash with an R2D2 center console which houses all the controls and displays. Not my idea of an ergonomic dash.

jipster · May 2005

..."awful dash..." "Not my idea of an ergonomic dash"
But, it may be the good sisters idea. She's not buying for you badger. Anyhow, she is not looking to buy new. The fairly new 2004 Quest is probably not what she is looking for.
Why so concerned about 3rd row seat comfort? Unless, you're a back seat driver! ha ha But seriously sister...how much you wanting to spend? Could you be a little more specific sister?

sistereinstein · May 2005

I'm probably out of my league, but used I'm looking at probably $13,000-ish. If threre are any that have stowaway seating, my guess is that it would be third row only made by an import, which is why I'm fishing for advice. I have been in the dark ages awhile and am hoping to educate myself.

Thanks to everyone for your input.

rorr · May 2005

Well, for that price range, you've got the last generation Honda Odyssey (with the 'magic' 3rd row stowable seat) and the current generation Mazda MPV with stowable 3rd row seat.

I suppose it's possible to locate a DC van with 2nd/3rd row stow'n'go seating for that price but not likely at all (they've only been out for a year). I'm fairly certain none of the GM offerings had stowable seating until this year so they'll be out of consideration. Previous generation Ford Windstar, Kia Sedona and Toyota Sienna did not have stowable seating.

For your budget, it looks like either an older Odyssey or a somewhat newer MPV would be your choices it stowable seating was a major factor.

karbuff · May 2005

My wife is also wanting a mini van with the stow-away 3rd row seat. I've been looking at the 2004 Ford Freestar, which is a re-styled Windstar. New ones are a bit overpriced, and like a lot of domestic vehicles, they depreciate like a brick. I'm finding a bunch of 04 Freestar SES's hitting the dealers around the northwest area, with 20-30000 miles with an asking range of $14-18K, which is about half of what they sticker for new. To get something less than $14K, you are looking at the Mazda MPV starting in year 2000, and the Honda Odyssey starting in 1999.

The Honda's are highly rated, but $13k is going to get you a 5yr old one with 70-80K miles on it. I like the MPV, but they are a bit smaller and were under powered until 2002 when the engine size was increased. Toyota and Nissan didn't have folding 3rd seat til the 2004 model, and don't depreciate enough to reach your target price range.

rrr1 · May 2005

Just bought a 05 odyssey EX-L with DVD entertainment system (no navigation) for $29,500 + taxes,tags, freight for an out of the door price of 31,080. Wondering if it's a decent deal? I am thinking it's about $650 over invoice...

Claires · May 2005

Congrats on your new car, rr1! You might also want to post in the Honda Odyssey: Prices Paid and Buying Experience Forum to see what other members think of the deal you got.

tamu2002 · May 2005

We're looking to buy a van real soon. we've narrowed down to the Quest and the Grand Caravan. We love the Quest's styling, modern interior and comfortable seats. Funny but the lack of 3rd row split seating has become the biggest sticking point. Having had a GC as a rental for 2 weeks, my wife has grown to really appeciate this feature, particular she plans to carry a double stroller in the van all the time. We have 3 kids, so the 3rd row will always be occupied with one car seat which makes the Quest's fold-into-floor-3rd-row feature practically disappear. If we keep a hugh double stroller in the well, will there be enough room left for groceryies?? Please share your thoughts on this. Thanks!

irg · May 2005

Tamu,
This lack of a split folding back seat was one of the main reasons why I never even considered the Quest, that and the poor quality control with the 2004 vans. But it would seem so simple to me, that once they saw that the Sienna and the Odyssey had a split design, they would do the same. But they didn't, and neither did Ford. Also the turning radius is quite poor for some odd reason.

Of these two vans, I think the GC is a better value. Picked second too by JD Power for Initial quality with the Sienna #1. I ended up with a Sienna XLE and I love it, and my wife who is the main driver of this, loves it too. We are expecting child #3 soon, so my reasoning was similar to yours - 2 kids in the middle row, one in the back, and what do you do if you can't split the third row? In the Sienna and probably the Quest too, the trunk space with the seats up is huge. One reason why I didn't consider the GM vans, was this complete lack of thought and convenience here. Whether you can get a stroller and groceries in the space is debatable. I just bought a new stroller myself, and haven't even opened it yet. I know though, with the Sienna I could do both so it isn't a question, same with the Odyssey. Any reason why you aren't considering the Sienna or Odyssey? For me I liked the Sienna best (really liked the Ody too) and the icing on the cake was the best van to finance for me was the Sienna - bought it at Fitzmall in MD, even though I Iive in NY. If you have to pick between the Quest and the GC, I would go with the GC. Probably cheaper too. We didn't like the interior, but I didn't care for the Quest's futuristic intererior either. IMO it will look dated very quickly.

marine2 · May 2005

Well Consummer's Report might have rated the Honda as the best mini van but the U.S. government just ordered 24,000 Dodge minivans.

tamu2002 · May 2005

Thanks for your comments irg! We're almost in the exactly same situation:two kids, 3rd on the way, a new double stroll that hasn't been opened yet

I posted some of our thoughts in the DGC board (http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef17c61) message #160 if you're interested. Basically the Odyssey and Sienna are out of our price range--a huge mortgage and a one-car payment are hard to deal with already. So we're trying hard to spend as little as possible on this van. Looks like we're gonna have to forgo some of the neat features on the DGC

masterpaul1 · May 2005

How about doing a test drive with your family and the double stroller in all the minivans you are considering to see how everything fits? Going by what you read or hear might not apply to you. At least this way you will know first hand both the pluses and minuses for each since your undecided. :shades:

tamu2002 · May 2005

Just the thought of it makes me tired :P The dealers are all quite far away, and I'd like to keep the stroller nicely packed in the box because we're moving this weekend. Too many things going on for me to test out the stroller in the van. You guys have been very helpful though!

hansienna · May 2005

Was it the US or Canadian Government? If US Govt, we taxpayers hope they are made in Fenton, MO. If Canadian, they should be made in Ontario.

marine2 · May 2005

How about doing a test drive with your family and the double stroller in all the minivans you are considering to see how everything fits?

Well you could put your kids in the third row seat and put your double stroller right inside the side door all set up with stow-n-go. No need to fold it up. I doubt you would have to stow more than one seat either.

marine2 · May 2005

Was it the US or Canadian Government? If US Govt, we taxpayers hope they are made in Fenton, MO. If Canadian, they should be made in Ontario.

It was the US government that ordered the 24,000 Dodge minivans. Don't know where they'll be made. The MO. plant is now also making Stow-n-Go instead of just the shorter vans. But even if many are Canadian, most of the parts are American.

str · May 2005

Are the double strollers really that huge? I am ordering the dreamer design ditto double jogging stroller next week and I have to be able to get more stuff into the back of our Envoy than just a stroller. We are looking at a Sienna XLE and a Montana SV6 and I am hoping that this double stroller will fit into them without having to fold down the seat. Mine will be carried in the back of which ever vehicle we have at all times because I walk and run every evening with my children. I am not about to haul that thing in every time we need to put something else in the back. I have not looked at the Sienna XLE in person yet but just seeing them around you would think they would fit a stroller and groceries or whatever in the back. I know the SV6 doesn't have much space in the back but don't these strollers fold flat? How much space are we talking about here?

1997montez34 · May 2005

I'm sure that all those Canadian-made Crown Victorias and Impalas qualify as "domestic" when thew US government does their purchasing.

tamu2002 · May 2005

Hey why didn't I think of that? Good diea! Although with three kids (one a baby), double stroller, and groceries, my wife will have to do some major thinking every time she puts them in the van

marine2 · May 2005

Hey why didn't I think of that? Good diea! Although with three kids (one a baby), double stroller, and groceries, my wife will have to do some major thinking every time she puts them in the van

Still no problem with the Dodge/Chrysler. They have a well behind the rear seat for groceries and you have space for three kids to sit, plus being able to put in a stroller that is not folded. She wouldn't have to pick it up at all. Just tilt it back and wheel it in the side door. Stow-n-Go is perfect for a family to carry things. That's the beauty of Stow-N-Go, veratility to carry the things you need without breaking your back lifting it, taking out those heavy seats. and still have room under the seats to hide all kinds of stuff you don't want sitting out.

tamu2002 · May 2005

I totally agree, but see here's our problem--we LOVE the versatility of the DGC but hate the interior and dislike the exterior color (except for red); and we LOVE everything about the Quest (almost) but HATE the lack of 3rd row split. We're torn between emotions and reasons

marine2 · May 2005

If you like the Quest that much, you should buy it. But I have found after the newness wears off, you start to realize what you like or dislike about your van. You need to weigh your priorities with what you want and how your going to use it.

hansienna · May 2005

Agree. Buy the Quest if you prefer it. It is also a very good minivan.

tamu2002 · May 2005

for your thoughts. I'll let you know what I end up getting. I'm pretty sure if I can get a base Quest for $20K we'll go for it. We decided it's probably worth saving the $2K forgoing the nice features of the DGC. That's 10% reduction in spending if you think of it that way.

badgerfan · May 2005

For what it is worth, an office coworker of mine bought a "base" Grand Caravan SE with Stow and Go option earlier this spring for a bit less than $20K+TTL. I believe the rebates now are as good or better than they were when he bought.

The center garbage can console that Nissan puts in their Quest will keep me from ever considering it as a good choice, despite whatever other good features it may have.

hansienna · May 2005

In addition to hideous center console, the name Quest sounds just like the telephone company headquartered in Denver Colorado called Qwest. Another reason to buy the Odyssey or Grand Caravan.

marine2 · May 2005

I think she has made her mind up to get the Quest. It's a pretty good looking van. Although I think she won't like getting that stroller in and out of it to much. But you have to get what you think you'll be happy with.

masshoosier · May 2005

.........the Ody(00' LX, 100k) was totalled.....all 5 of us were in it.....little shoulder pain for me..everyone else fine, gotta love the safety on these machines (60 mph hour blow to the passenger front quarter).

Now comes shopping time, I got $11,300 from the insurance....paid 24k after taxes for it....not bad. In those 100k I only had to pay out $114.00 for mechanical repairs(brakes excluded of course). I love the Odyssey...but thinking of maybe picking up an 00' or 01' MPV in the 70k mile range......seems that for $8-9k I can get one. Maybe not an ES.....but...something cloth with a power pkg. on it. Any MPVer's out there....do theses vans chug past the 150k mark pretty easily????

If it were you????? say....11k to spend????? what van...what year, what milege???? ......please share your opinion

jipster · May 2005

Yes masshoosier... I am an MPVer. Sorry, to hear of your accident & glad everyone is o.k. Could you describe in more detail the circumstances of your accident? Were you sitting at a light..traveling on hwy etc.
I have a 2004 MPV...which has the 200 hp Ford Duratec engine in it(beginning with the 2002 model) I believe the 2000 & 2001 models have the 160hp engines.
From what I have read the engines are extremely reliable and easily get over 150k.
Recent reliability scores from Consumer Reports(gag) show excellent reliability ratings for the 2000 and 2001.For 11k you may be able to get a 2002 model.
I like the MPV because it is a true minivan. It is smaller in size, but has enough room to seat 7 comfortably. Rides and handles more like a car...easier to park and manuver.Compare to 1999-2002 Dodge Caravan, 1998-2000 Grand Caravan and 1998-1999 Honda Odyssey or Toyota Sienna.

irg · May 2005

Why wouldn't you buy another Odyssey if you loved it - especially since it saved everyone's life? I would tend to buy the same again if I had paid so little in repairs, and no one was injured after a 60 mph blow. If you are getting $11k from the insurance, take that and apply it to an Odyssey LX, and you would only have to finance about $11k which would be a very low payment. And being new, you would have peace and mind about having a new car warranty. Glad to hear everyone is ok. Whose fault was it?

big_red_nation · May 2005

I would recommend that you lean strongly towards either the Honda or the Toyota. My wife and I still refer to our former Dodge Caravan as the Crap-A-Van. I am still not impressed with Chrysler Products for reliability reasons. We bought our Odyssey a few years ago and is has been very reliable. We've taken trips to California, Colorado, etc. The Toyota Sienna looks very nice also (and is supposedly just as reliable). The seats may be a little more comfortable in the Toyota. Just my 2 cents -

masshoosier · May 2005

Love the input.....nice to hear stuff from others that isn't along the lines of..."My so-and-so has one and they think its wooonnnnderrful"...

irg-ours, better half was driving...me on passanger, one child in the middle(2nd mid seat was out) and 2 kids in 3rd row.

jipster-we were crossing(north) 4 lanes of a stretch of local U.S. highway. We had crossed the 2 east bound lanes(median separated the other two) and was hit by a car in the right lane coming down the westbound side(right hand lane). The road we were on comes at this highway from an angle rather than a standard +...... just lost them between the blind and my head. The other driver admitted that they saw us crossing but didn't slow because they figured we were going to turn into the immediate left lane.
The hit came right around the front right tire, spun us 360 degrees and in the middle of that managed to smack the car with passanger slider area of the van as well. The front part of the frame was shoved over about about a foot and the engine just seemed to be all but hanging by a thread in there. Front air bags didn't go off though........should of they???...

once again...thanks...keep chiming in.........your opinions are important!

str · May 2005

That's a very interesting name you have for your former van. What was it you didn't like about it? On a lot of these forums people write that they really like the Caravan. I don't know anything about the Caravans, just wondering why you disliked it so much.

jipster · May 2005

Thanks for the update. Sounds like the Ody absorbed the impact very well. The front air bags don't go off unless you have substantial impact to the very front of the car.Probably would have caused the side airbags to go off in a vehicle equipped with them.

FYI- The MPV rates 5 stars in side impact and front impact collisions. Most all minivans rate very high in saftey ratings now. A few in late 90's early 2000 weren't that good on side impact collisions(not that you're planning on having any more...but still good to know)

Good luck with your next van purchase.

hansienna · May 2005

After closely comparing one son's 2001 Ody EX and another son's 2002 GC Sport, we bought a used 2002 T&C LX clone of the GC Sport. The DC minivans are quieter with more nice features for less money than the Ody. So far, none of the 3 have had any problems.
The GC Sport and T&C LX get better gas mileage than the Odyssey.
It is quite absurd to compare an old Caravan with a much newer Odyssey but apparently you still need to bad mouth the best selling minivan.

marine2 · May 2005

I guess if you want to go by inside looks, Honda and Toyota are the vans to buy. But if you want a van that is not only people friendly, but can do everything you ever thought a van could do, and in many cases, do it better, the Chrysler/DGC are the best on the market.

They not only are quiet with a smooth ride. Have the best sliding doors on the market. Have a great sound system and A/C. But have the best versatility and storage space of any van on the market, bar none.

Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

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