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Subaru Baja

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  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Agreed, and more utility too. Most of us have been saying the same thing for some time here.

    Bob
  • yooperyooper Member Posts: 30
    I posted this on one of the Subaru Chat threads but it was quickly buried with discussion on the new Outback. I think based on what has been stated in the last few posts it can be posted again.

     Where is Subaru's advertising? I think they targeted the wrong audience. Subaru needs to compare the Baja to other vehicles and highlight its utility features.

    I have hauled in my Baja: a riding lawnmower, mulch, shrubbery, gas cans, garbage cans (with garbage), recycle materials, lumber and who knows what else. Of course the occassional bike too. I have also taken on 2 foot deep snow drifts and snow banks when I was a volunteer Ambulance driver and was responding to an emergency. However, it is primarily a commuter that also carries my family when necessary. Yet, I still get decent gas mileage.

    My point: Why can't Subaru target young families that need a commuter vehicle that also serves as a utility vehicle?

    Imagine a commerical like this. A Baja at the gas pump next to a full size pick up and a sedan with the owners conversing. Show the vehicles with the exact same cargo (say a lawnmower and a can of gas). The sedan owner complains about messing up the trunk (with a lawnmower hazardously sticking out the back)and stinking up the interior with a gas can also in the trunk. Meanwhile the full sized truck owner is complaining about pumping in $50 of gas, yet is hauling the same load. Next the commercial highlights the Baja owner who has a $20 gas bill, the lawn mower and can of gas in the back, not to mention the kids (or car pool gang) in the back seat.

    Make variations of this type of advertising, just show the utility of the vehicle to the common folk!

    The general public doesn't even know the Baja exists. I have been asked numerous times what type of vehicle I am driving and have had numerous positive interactions concerning this vehicle.

    It is a great vehicle with great capabilities.

    Subaru of America..... I think you need to change your audience! (and advertise it mainstream media)
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I agree, advertising is either lacking or mis-directed, or both. Showing a Baja doing tasks that the average buyer could identify with is sorely lacking. Some of the examples you mentioned (putting a lawn mower in the bed for example) are great.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'll be hauling a lawn mower to our condo in the back of the Forester and I'm not looking forward to it. A Baja would be perfect but it's way too cramped for my wife to even consider one.

    -juice
  • once_for_allonce_for_all Member Posts: 1,640
    not to belabor the point, but the problem is that the Baja does not fit an American crowd that is generally taller.

    Its other attributes are wonderful. IMO, the Honda SUT will offer far more than the current generation Baja--bigger, 5,000 lb towing, more power than the current 2.5 NA, similar gas mileage to the Baja Turbo, etc. That is where sales will shine, because I agree with you, there is a pent up demand for a smaller crossover pickup that rides like a car and gets 5-10 mpg more than the full size pickup. Look at how many Avalanche sales occur, I don't think it is just a fad.

    John
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The SUT won't be that small, though. I'd call it a mid-sizer. And I bet the price is about where the Pilot is, maybe more.

    The Ranger may be the only small pickup left, besides the Baja, pretty soon.

    -juice
  • once_for_allonce_for_all Member Posts: 1,640
    I bet the SUT comes in about at Sportrac dimensions. That is a sweet looking package, but it needs AWD, car like ride, and another 5 mpg to make it ideal.

    John
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'll say it'll be bigger. Sport Trac is based on the previous Explorer. Pilot is closer to the current Explorer's size, I believe. That platform is made to carry 3 rows of passengers.

    -juice
  • once_for_allonce_for_all Member Posts: 1,640
    word on the Subaru 7 passenger? That would be an ideal platform for the next generation Baja.

    John
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    and yes, that would the perfect platform for a next-generation Baja.

    Bob
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Pickups chat welcome at the chats as well. If there's enough interest, at some point perhaps we can have a separate Pickups chat at some point...

    Thursday Chats!

    Thursdays are a double header chat night now. First up from 5-6pm PT/8-9pm ET we have the brand new Saab Enthusiast Chat. Stop in to meet and greet fellow Saab enthusiasts and your fellow Town Hall denizens and take your favorite automotive topics LIVE in our chat room.

    Saab Chat Room

    Then immediately following...

    Welcome to the Subaru Crew's Weekly Chat!

    Join the Subaru Crew every Thursday evening for a chat session from 6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. The chat room opens about 15 minutes before the scheduled start time, so stop on in, even if it's just to say Hello! All things Subaru is the general theme, but anything automotive is fair game too. Come on in and get to know some of your fellow Town Hallies better! See you there...

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  • aarestadaarestad Member Posts: 10
    I have wondered (and recommended to Subaru via email) if the Baja isn't a good platform to put a hybrid (gas/electric) technology on. Being a low profile model (as the advertising shows us), It seems a good place to start. That way they can work out some of the kinks without taking the press abuse that would come from any possible quirks in that system introduced on a higher profile model (Legacy/Outback).

    It also seems that the Baja is already popular with those who like the utility/economy/comfort mix. A hybrid drivetrain could also serve to attract the more "eco friendly" crowd and help to build more attention for the Baja.

    Then you can just imagine the commercial:
    First we see the commercial where the three trucks all have a lawnmower in the bed and are filling up on gas (as was suggested in an earlier post). The next commercial is those three trucks running down a deserted highway in a caravan... first one sputters and dies... out of gas... then another... also out of gas... the Baja continues on to end the commercial with the Baja pulling into "Joe's lawnmower service"
    -or-
    the alternative ending of the Baja pulling into a repair shop rolling down the window and saying "2 more back up the road" and 2 tow trucks pulling out immediately afterwards.

    You can see why I don't work in marketing ;)
  • bat1161bat1161 Member Posts: 1,784
    The only problem I could see with that is if Subaru did come out with a hybrid (which I feel they should) it would be better on the more popular models like the Legacy/Outback. If you notice, both Lexus and Honda offers hybrid models on their more popular models, the Civic and
    RX-400. I think if Subaru wants to join in the hybrid game, it would look better going onto their main sellers, rather than the Baja which is having such a hard time.
       On the other hand I agree that a Baja hybrid would make a nice vehicle, and would help Baja sales.

    Mark
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    The Baja hybrid might make more sense because it's a low-volume vehicle. If Subaru wants to "test the waters" without too much risk, the Baja might make more sense. It would also give the Baja something no other Subie has, so it definitely could help from a marketing standpoint.

    If it proves successful, then by all means, spread that drivetrain around.

    Bob
  • bat1161bat1161 Member Posts: 1,784
    Normally I would agree, but I don't see Subaru offering the hybrid technology without first extensively testing it for reliablity. In which case offering it on all models would be viable.

    Mark
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think the target market it just too small. To amortize the investment they'd have to charge a huge markup.

    Keep in mind it would not be the first hybrid pickup - GM will beat everyone to market with a contractor hybrid pickup. And those folks can afford it, as a work/fleet vehicle.

    Another very important aspect is that Subaru needs CAFE credits on its car side, *not* its truck side, of the business. They easily exceed the truck standard, while the cars are borderline.

    -juice
  • once_for_allonce_for_all Member Posts: 1,640
    I would love to see a Subaru hybrid. And, perhaps a 3.0 model that shuts down 2 or 3 cylinders when in the cruise mode, like Honda is going to do in their Pilot. A 40 mpg AWD vehicle? Imagine the excitment.

    John
  • aarestadaarestad Member Posts: 10
    I agree that the markup necessary to amortize the investment, if passed directly on to the consumer, would be prohibitive. However, it is not unheard of to put out new technology and take a loss on it.

    Take the insight for example. While I don't know for sure, given its price and the technology investment involved, I would imagine that Honda lost money on each one sold but used it to gain the prestige of having a hybrid vehicle and also as a test bed for the future. I am sure Honda tested their hybrid drive extensively as well and were pretty confident of it... but they didn't roll hybrid directly into a Civic or Accord but in their case created an all new vehicle (Insight).

    Granted that part of Honda's goal was to put out a wow factor by creating a vehicle that so far exeeded everything else out there in terms of gas mileage that it would get press time just for that reason alone.

    While it doesn't make strict profit-per-unit business sense to not make people pay for what they get (a hybrid), it can make good business sense from an overall perspective. It is tricky business to do a cost-benefit analysis on projected acceptance of something so intangible.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    has a payload of 900lb. Hardly a "work" truck, even if it is on the full-size platform.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    People will just overload that...

    Not sure Subaru is big enough to be able to absorb a loss on hybrids. In the bigger picture they are hardly a blip on the chart.

    -juice
  • once_for_allonce_for_all Member Posts: 1,640
    player4 "Honda SUT 2006" Jul 26, 2004 7:45pm

    This is what I want from the Baja. Honda is going to score with this vehicle.

    John
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    the Baja needs to be. Not wild about the styling though—and there's no pass-through switchback, like what the Baja has.

    Towing is reported to be 5K, which is good, again, what the Baja needs.

    Bob
  • ozman62ozman62 Member Posts: 229
    Yeah, that's an understatement. What's with that rear window shape? Actually, I like the fact that Honda is making vehicles like the Element, and now this thing. It makes my Forester look downright svelte... Ha, ha.
    Owen
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://www.rigoliracing.com.au/esx_baja-500.html
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Honda SUT is gonna run over $30 grand I bet. We'll see.

    I predict it'll meet sales goals, but it won't match the Explorer Sport Trac in sales, not even close.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I picked one up today, and in it is pictured the new hard cover that comes standard on the turbo with leather package. It's not a Snug Top, or some other unit. It also mentioned this hard cover will become an option for other Bajas sometime after the turbo w/leather arrives. My guess is sometime in the fall.

    From the photo, it's kind of hard to say if this is a good unit or not. I really need to see one in person, and see how it looks, works, and fits the car.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Maybe we can go to a Subaru dealer tomorrow after the X3 drive and check one out, Bob.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Thanks for reminding me! FedEx field at 10:30. right?

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, just e-mailed you.

    -juice
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Thursday Chats!

    You can hang out and chat with your fellow Town Hall enthusiasts for TWO hours on Thursdays now... First up from 5-6pm PT/8-9pm ET we have the brand new Saab Enthusiast Chat. Stop in to meet and greet fellow Saab enthusiasts and your fellow Town Hall denizens and take your favorite automotive topics LIVE in our chat room.

    Saab Chat Room

    Then immediately following...

    Welcome to the Subaru Crew's Weekly Chat!

    Join the Subaru Crew every Thursday evening for a chat session from 6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. The chat room opens about 15 minutes before the scheduled start time, so stop on in, even if it's just to say Hello! All things Subaru is the general theme, but anything automotive is fair game too. Come on in and get to know some of your fellow Town Hallies better! See you there...

    Subaru Crew Chat Room

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    Pickups & News & Views Message Boards
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm not sure if this was mentioned already, but last night I watched part of this show and the support vehicle they were using was a Subaru Baja, monotone silver.

    It looked pretty cool. They had it in the desert, AZ IIRC. They were building sand buggies from junk yard parts.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    or at least part of that show, and did see the Baja you mentioned.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Those purpose-built sand buggies were cool, no?

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    but that's one strange show.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Interesting, though. I guess I liked that episode because it was about cars and off roading. To be honest I've never watched it until yesterday.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    It's fun to watch, especially if you're prone to Rube Goldberg engineering solutions. :)

    Bob
  • once_for_allonce_for_all Member Posts: 1,640
    any Baja upgrades in the wind on the new Outback chassis? I see the Legacy now has 40.5" headroom, and 44.1 leg. A full two inches more than the Baja in the head, and close to an inch in the leg.

    It wouldn't take much IMO to chop off the new Outback wagon "a**" (as some put it) and put in a bed. Pass through isn't that useful and doesn't need to be there. I could see a new Baja with just a minimal amount of sheetwork. Sales should go up, maybe even save the vehicle.

    John
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They are debating that right now, most likely. Current volumes don't justify a redesign, but a bigger/wider model just might be what they need for Baja to survive.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    John

    The last I heard was that the '06 model would continue to remain on the existing platform. Now that was several months ago. Beyond that, who knows? We're just hoping SOA will continue the Baja in some form.

    Bob
  • once_for_allonce_for_all Member Posts: 1,640
    me too, but my head is in the current one's roof... if they would dump the sunroof, that would help.

    If it was on the new OB chassis, it would be a no brainer---I would trade my Forester in tomorrow (well, maybe next week).

    John
  • yooperyooper Member Posts: 30
    I was at a car show today. A small show in a small town. I did not have the Baja in the show, but I did have it in parking lot near the show. On two occasions I went back to the Baja for something and found someone walking around it and admiring it. One guy said this is the perfect vehicle if you only had one car in the family. He also stated he had never seen one, just some advertising.

    My conclusion. Wake up Subaru of America and advertise to the main stream public.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    My conclusion. Wake up Subaru of America and advertise to the main stream public.

    I agree. It seems like SOA has given up on this vehicle. It's really a shame...

    Bob
  • once_for_allonce_for_all Member Posts: 1,640
    I fully agree that the crossover pickup market is huge. We are seeing more models out every year, and decent sales all the way around.

    The Baja's only problem, IMO, is that it is too small in the cab for many buyers.

    Put it on the new Outback chassis, take out the moonroof which robs 1 1/2" of head room, and it is a winner.

    John
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think it needs to be on a longer platform. The Outback's wheelbase is, what, 0.9" longer than before, something like that?

    Stretch it another 2", make the bed 4" longer overall.

    I agree about deleting the moonroof (even though I usually like them), and it should be a 5 seater.

    -juice
  • once_for_allonce_for_all Member Posts: 1,640
    Good points juice, I would like to see it a bit longer too. But I think Subaru should do a "plug and play" here using the new Outback, since economics are definitely an issue.

    Buyers won't fork over $25k for this vehicle and SOA needs a quick solution that won't require expensive retooling.

    John
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Subaru should take a close look at the Element. There is a quirky 4 seater with radical styling and less payload than its donor vehicle.

    Sound familiar?

    Yet it's a huge success. Honda forecast 50k sales and they've exceeded that. Baja was forecast at 20k and might not hit 10k this year.

    Honda priced and equipped it smartly, though. It is cheaper than the CR-V.

    Subaru can steal some extra volume if it is priced right.

    -juice
  • once_for_allonce_for_all Member Posts: 1,640
    yes, Honda did their homework, but they miscalculated a bit. Their target was the first time car buyer 19 year old with toys and outdoors in mind. Oddly enough the mainstream buyer was a 40 year old like myself.

    Honda cheaped down the base Element with plastic everywhere, and not rugged plastic at that. I probably would have bought one had they put in basics such as a radio/cd, AC, tachometer and full instrumentation, remote door locks, etc.

    I much prefer Subaru's approach of value and features combined, not a cheap entry level price.

    John
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I doubt Honda cares much how old the 50,000 plus buyers are. Better still, the CR-V actually had a slight increase in sales, no cannibalization at all. Smashing success. Not perfect, but successful, yes.

    For a niche car, with polarizing styling, the high value/high content strategy just plain failed.

    Scion xB is another example of a hit because it was priced right.

    For the price of a well equipped Baja (early on), you could just about get an Avalanche, a full-size V8 with a full midgate.

    Leather and a moonroof were clearly not enough to offset that.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Did people buy it cause they liked it or cause it was a honda? That's the question sometimes that needs to be asked....

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Fair question - but that's why I brought up CR-V sales.

    If someone walks into a dealer intending to buy a CR-V, but buys the cheaper Element, that's a cannibalized sale, i.e. no good for Honda. They make less profit because it's cheaper, and their costs are higher because they have to sell 2 models.

    However, CR-V sales are up, combined sales are way up, 60,000 more than before the Element. Therefore I don't think that's the case. Element is bringing a different buyer into the show room.

    Baja hasn't really brought anyone new to Subaru dealers.

    I'll reiterate my opinion - build a 2006 Baja on the new Legacy platform, just price is carefully, a bit below a comparable Outback. You really have to do that *and* add some size and utility to it.

    -juice
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