CR-V vs Escape

scape2 · April 2002

This is what I have been saying all along.. Do you think Ford would have continued to make Escapes/Tribs without fixing them or improving them? NO WAY, NO HOW. This is the reason I bought a late 2001 model Escape.. not one problem..
I did however make my own problem. while trying to fold the rearseat down I accidently broke a plastic piece... My fault though I was tugging too hard and didn't pull the little strap far enough out I guess.. Hope this will be fixed under warranty..
carguy.. wouldn't you think this is a bit misleading?

varmint · April 2002

Thanks for the link, Steve. Only time will tell if Ford can pull it off.

Baggs - I can't speak for everyone on this thread, but when I'm talking about reliability, I'm not saying "the Escape is junk" without a reason. I have a reason. The Escape scored 40% below the industry average for the 2001 model year. Both the Escape and Tribute are the worst small SUVs when it comes to reliability. Well maybe the Kia is lower. They didn't have enough data for it.

This has nothing to do with the early recalls. I think that Ford did the right thing by fixing them as soon as possible. And I generally do not count all the problems I read in these forums, unless they become overwhelming. The PCM issues with Escapes stalling has become overwhelming. The lower than expected mpg also cannot be ignored.

There are other issues that seem to be reported by a few, but not shared by all. This is true with all vehicles (including Hondas) and I take them with a grain of salt until they become very common.

But when you have posters reporting hundreds of consistent issues, a half dozen recalls, and the vehicle is ranked at the bottom of the reliability pile... How can you ignore it?

baggs32 · April 2002

But you still don't own one, and have never personally experienced any of it's ups or downs. Reading what other people on these boards say is not a good reason. God only knows who these people really are. For all we know there is one person out there with ten user-names posting the same problems over and over again. Personally, I don't believe that either, but it could happen. If you had purchased an Escape there is a very good chance that you would not have any problems with it, if you did have problems, I'd listen.

I can ignore it because I liked it the best out of all the others. Apparently a lot of other people, magazine writers, and edmunds.com editors do too.

Hey Steve, why is it that when I tell people about edmunds.com they look at me like I have three heads? Why don't you guys start a little advertising campaign so we can get more people in here. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the company whilst I sit here at work, I just think we all could benefit from some more viewpoints. The Masters Championship is coming up soon. Lots of people there you know. Superbowl ads are always good too.

varmint · April 2002

Baggs - That argument doesn't hold much water. I could turn it around and say the same thing. You don't own a CR-V. So how can you say that the CR-V won't last 100 years and 1,000,000 miles without a tune up? It doesn't make sense.

Are you also trying to tell me that there is an anti-Escape conspiracy out there trying to sully the name of a flawless vehicle?

I cannot prove that the posters here on Edmunds are not all the same person. Nor can I prove the same for the reports in AutoWeek, Consumer Reports, and other magazines who published the results of their surveys. But when every source in the automotive industry (including Ford itself) is telling us that the vehicle has a quality problem...

stever · April 2002

People will disagree with me, but Microsoft comes to mind as a company that disseminates their problems widely (as least when they have a bug fix).

Of the big 3, I always preferred Ford myself. My family had a Galaxie 500 and a Falcon. My brother got rid of his CR-V and drives an F150. My Quest was assembled by Ford with some Ford parts. No unusual fit & finish issues, and just one switch that was flaky that I blame on Ford.

Seems like Ford is saying all the right things now, and I like the honcho's (Jr.) comments about hybrids and such.

Heh, maybe we need an online store so you guys can buy Edmunds T-Shirts and license plate brackets. Be a little cheaper than a SuperBowl spot.

Occasionly we have to kill an id because it's a duplicate, but the registration scheme prevents most of that.

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

bess · April 2002

'lower than expected mileage can not be ignored'

Why is it that owners of other vehicles make up problem areas that don't exist..

On this and other forums, the wide majority of escape owners who've posted MPG's well within what is found on the sticker..

An example is a poll taken on escape-central.com on Escape MPG's. Only 21% of the poll responders indicate that they were getting mpg's of 17 or lower..
17.65% between 14 and 17mpgs
3.84% less than 13 mpgs..

Driving style and choice of fuel brands could easily account for the 17% getting 14 to 17mpg.
------------
In a seperate poll, they asked, what is your Escape V6 mpg:
Only 11.53% report mpg's of 17 or lower.
12 votes of 104.

-----------------------------
Also, every source you quoted on stating that the Escape 'has' a quality problem made such statements about Escape's that are almost 2 years old.. That, Ford and the industry did acknowledge, but those models are behind, and the problems that did exist affected fewer vehicles than the recalls for Honda's in the past.

The quote from Edmunds on the 2002 Escape:
"a rash of well-publicized first-year recalls sullies the image of this otherwise fine SUV"

What doesn't Edmunds acknowledge that all of those issues have been addressed and no longer exist in the 2002 model Escapes?

No vehicle is flawless, but I have seen time and time again that many publications focus on any problem experienced domestic manufactures, but overlook those problems found in Japanese manufactured products.

Check out Edmunds long term review of the Honda Odessey which experience several recalls and problems.

varmint · April 2002

Bess - How many times do I have to say this... The recalls are not, I repeat NOT, no wait... one more time, NOT an issue with reliability. Recalls are typically engineering errors or quality issues with specific parts. I've never written that they were anything else.

I think that Ford did the right thing by admitting their mistakes and trying to fix them as soon as possible. The only problems with this are the inconvenience to the owners, and the bad press that Ford gets for having so many.

Am I clear on that? Now with that out of the way... I don't even need to mention the recalls (which were mostly stop sales, actually) to prove that the Escape has issues with reliability. In fact, I'm willing to ignore lots of the writing on the wall.

As per the link above, Ford has admitted that they have reliability and quality issues. Ford also ranked low (as a manufacturer) in surveys conducted by Consumer Reports. That's a fact, go look it up if you want to validate it. Ford averaged 26 problems per 100 vehicles. For comparison, Honda averaged 14 problems per vehicle. That's roughly half the number of problems across their entire product lines. As Scape2 likes to point out, Hondas do indeed have problems. But for every one of them, Ford has two.

But none of that has much to do with the Escape, does it? For all we know, the Escape could be a perfect vehicle, and it's the Explorer Sport that is dragging the entire company's average into the pits. Right? So I'm willing to ignore the manufacturer's history. Strike it from the record.

The next most common thing we hear are the consistent horror stories from the Mazda Tribute/Ford Escape Problems board. These are, of course, annecdotal evidence. Just a bunch of stories from people we don't know. They could simply be a minority who keep reposting the same issues as part of a huge anti-Ford conspiracy. Maybe the CIA conducted tests on them in an underground lab back in the 60s. Since these reports are not gathered in a controlled environment, I'm willing to toss them out as well.

Then we have reports from publications like AutoWeek who write vehicle summaries based on reader feedback. Their readers report the good and the bad, and AW sums it up. In a nutshell, the summaries praise the vehicles. The owners would love them if they would just stop breaking all the time. (This, BTW, is one of the many places were I've read reports of low fuel efficiency.) But we don't know how large the sample was. So I'll ignore this data as well. Despite the fact that the information is gathered and published directly from the owners and in a controlled manner. We require better evidence here in this court.

Let us recap for a second. This is what we've seen so far.

1. More recalls than normal (or possibly ever?).
2. A reputation for poor quality and reliability from the manufacturer.
3. Hundreds of anecdotal reports of consistent issues from owners and reported on the internet.
4. Surveys from consumer and enthusiast publications stating that owners are having problems.

Despite all the circumstantial evidence, the annecdotal evidence, the history, the casual observations, and owner experiences we shall ignore the writing on the wall until we find hard factual evidence.

Now, don't dispair. We can still figure this out. If someone would just tally up a boat-load of data based how many problems are actually happening. Some data that is collected in a controlled manner, not some internet forum. Data that is based on a large sample of owners. Say more than 500,00 vehicles. Data that compares the vehice against some reasonable standard, like the industry average...

Data like Consumer Reports rating the Escape and Tribute more than 40% below the industry average. Yeah, that should do it.

Hold on... I may know what you're thinking. That data includes the recalled vehicles and therefore should have nothing to do with the reliability of the vehicle. Those problems have been fixed, after all. But aren't you same folks telling me that those recalls affected only a few select VINs? Yep, I'm sure that was you. Wouldn't that mean they wouldn't have much effect on the statistical rankings? Yeah, that's true, too. So all this happened despite the fact that Ford has supposedly fixed the first year issues.

Let me tell you another story about a vehicle that got lousy reviews for reliability. The ML320. When it hit the streets, people raved about it. They loved it. It started showing quality and reliability issues and the fans of the vehicle shrugged it off. They said it was just a few people making a stink over nothing. We were told that most owners were happy with them. Then the first year of reliablity rankings came out. 80-90% below the industry average. The fans said that the vehicle did have some first year bugs. Every vehicle does. MB came out and admitted that the vehicle had problems. They vowed to fix them. Fans of the ML320 found out that MB had changed well over 200 parts with new and improved replacements. The new ML320 was as solid as a rock. It was like a brand new vehicle. Sound familiar? The ML320 is currently ranked about 50% below the industry average.

The moral of the story... I'll believe it when I see it.

goldencouple1 · April 2002

I must agree with Varmint's well reasoned post.

Ford is having problems. New problems with vehicles have been appearing weekly. Lots of little bits all add up to a trend. Ford has problem with engineering and execution, which is evidenced by the recalls and the reliability statistics. Pull any vehicle out of the Ford "car-box" and the probabilities are it will have more problems than a vehicle pulled out of the Honda "car-box". An individual vehicle may buck the odds. And if the fail rate is 85% versus 95%, your odds of getting a "trouble free" vehicle are good with either line of vehicles. But your risk is significantly higher with the 85% fail rate line of vehicles. And the 85% fail rate line has a "smell" to it: it's not as well engineered or executed -- little things go wrong that maybe don't make it into the "fail" category: loose fasteners, bad plastic, less durable bits and pieces.

My entirely unscientific experience with Ford has been one of nagging disappointment and a broken heart. So shiny and nice on the outside, but one little heartbreak after another: broken bits, bad welds, electrical glitches, small failures, shoddy materials, poor fit and finish, leaky seals. In my unscientific experience a four year old Ford w/ 50K miles on it is like a ten year old Honda with 150K on it.

thorn · April 2002

The superior CR-V has devastated Escape sales so much that Ford is discounting more than ever:

http://www.detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0204/06/autos-458536.htm

The CR-V is outselling the Escape by more than a third - but that's the good news - things should get worse for Ford when more CR-V's become available. Ford's KMART-style tactics may help short term, they will not enhance the Escape's allure or LT prospects.

scape2 · April 2002

the Escape done yet thorn..
This is the first model year of the CRV and I would be willing to bet many of the sales are people trading their old CRV's for new ones.
The Escape ranked in the lower reliability BECAUSE of the initial recalls for 2001. This is stated by Consumer reports. For 2002 the Escape looks good, NOT ONE recall.
I would still like to know what HOnda is hiding at www.alldata.com and why they don't like to spread the knowledge about TSB's??
CRV was less expensive at initial offering. Ford is coming out with more options, more styles, more choices than the CRV will offer for less $$. I paid 22.8K for my 2001 Escape V6 XLT AWD. I see them in the paper now for 21.5!! I see XLS V6 Escapes for 19K.. And its not just 1 or 2 its upwards of 5-7. XLS is like optioned as the LX CRV.. Also I hear over and over from others, sales numbers always don't mean you have the best vehicle. Because Mcdonalds sells more burgers than Jack in the Box does that make thier hamburger better?? Nope..

varmint · April 2002

"I would be willing to bet many of the sales are people trading their old CRV's for new ones."

I doubt that this is true, but so what if it is?

"The Escape ranked in the lower reliability BECAUSE of the initial recalls for 2001."

You keep telling us that the Escape recalls only affected a few vehicles. Doesn't that mean that the recalls would only affect a few surveys? Yes, it does. So the recalls should not have a large statistical impact.

"For 2002 the Escape looks good, NOT ONE recall"

You think that maybe it's because Ford learned a lesson from their first experience with issuing stop sales? Ford voluntarily recalled all those vehicles and unfortunately they got blasted in the press. I'd bet that they are doing everything possible not to issue another recall. Imagine how bad it would look for them. Of course they haven't issued another! They're probably sending bottles of scotch to the NHTSA and asking them not to force a recall for the stalling issue.

"Because Mcdonalds sells more burgers than Jack in the Box does that make their hamburger better?? Nope"

Well, I do agree with you there. Sales are not everything. However, they are a good gauge of market trends. When a company as small as Honda is besting a company as big as Ford, you have to admit they must be doing something right. This is a situation where Jack in the Box is selling more burgers than MacDonalds.

Scape2 - In terms of this debate, your best bet would be to admit that the Escape will have, on average, a larger number of problems than the CR-V and get it over with. All the evidence supports the notion that the Escape is troublesome. You would be better off shifting the discussion to a subject where the Escape does in fact have some strong points. Otherwise you will be fighting a constant uphill battle. This subject has been beaten to death.

daveghh · April 2002

Is it true that there are not any map lights in the escape? You know above and between the driver and the front passenger...

If that is true than the CRV is far superior! Hehehe

bess · April 2002

varmit:
Although the number of Escapes affected by recalls was limited, the publications such as CR and Edmunds who give their opinions, still site this as the reason they question the Escape reliability. You confirmed this yourself with your acknowledgement that the press beat up on the Escape because of its recalls.

Your exaggeration of the Escape problems is almost to the absurd level: Quotes to the affect of:
- The Escape has had more recalls than possibly ever. (what does 'ever' mean anyway?)
- The Escape as a consistant MPG problem. (again, this is made up by you).
- Ford has a reputation of poor reliability, (again, incorrect)
- Honda is a tiny company battling the huge Ford. (I don't think Honda classifies as a 'small company')

According to the various statistics, Honda does have a slight advantage to the Escape. But to claim that Ford is junk when its quality is in the same league as Honda, (both are above average in long term relability according to JDPowers studies).

- Now your claiming the Ford is 'hiding' reliability issues and fighting to not issue recalls. This is not a practice that Ford is known to do in the past or present (withold recalls), but does seem to be a past pattern for Toyota and Honda.

I don't dispute that the CRV is a good vehicle. Honda deserves alot of credit as I believe the CRV was the first widely accepted vehicle in this segment. Ford came into this segment late, but did raise the bar with comfort, performance, styling, and value. It's nice to see Honda respond with the re-designed CRV as this type of back and forth development will make the vehicles on both sides better overall.

Daveggh:
The Escape has map lights.

tomsr · April 2002

My son works as a technician for a major Ford
dealer.He tells about trucks coming from the
factory with things like beds not level.He stays very busy fixing various new Fords problems.Four
years ago I ordered a 98 Explorer from the factory
and it had various problems which he had to fix before it was delivered to me and he is a detail
oriented person.The rear defroster did not work because of a bad switch among other things.I looked at the Escapes and he took me to a backlot
where there was a bunch of them which I could have had at invoice price. I had to ask myself if
they are so great why is there a lot full of them?
I chose the CRV.I felt the better quality and
resell is worth the 40HP I gave up.

scape2 · April 2002

I have a manager friend of a Honda dealership. The repair bays are always full, you have to wait sometimes 3 days to get in for an appointment, his lots are full of Accords, Civics you name it..
So, whats the point?
My wifes 2000 Accord has been back to the dealership 3x.. Does this make all Accords junk??
go visit www.alldata.com and try, I say again try to look at the TSB information.. Honda won't give it out!! Hmmm....
The Escape took a huge hit on initial introduction. The press made a huge, blown out of porportion mahem out of this issue. If people would visit the NHSTA site they can read the data for themselves. There were only certain lots and built dates of Escapes/Tributes affected. When will this recall garbage go away and quit being blown way out of proportion?? There is much debate to consumer reports and even Edmunds reporting. They gave the Odessey rave reviews and outstanding reliability even though it also had multiple recalls and a whole bunch of quality/fit/finish issues.. Hmmm...
CRV may have a slight edge in its HISTORY for reliabity, I say again HISTORY of reliability. The Honda crowd will try and try again to brush off the V6 issues, fact is the V6 is superior.
Edmunds, and Motor Trend rank the Escape very well in road manners, performance and value.
I know I made the right choice in buying an Escape. And love the extra power when I need it with its extra 40HP and 40ft/lbs of torque. Its 16" tires/wheels vs the puny 15" on the CRV, its ability to tow 3,500lbs, its split rear hatch that allows easy loading unloading vs the swing out hatch with a combersum spare tires in your way.
Yes, there are map lights in the Escape.

varmint · April 2002

Bess - I'm quoting statistical facts, not opinions. The fact that the Escape ranked 40% below the industry average is not the "opinion" of CR, it is a statistical fact based on data collected from owner surveys.

I listed the other data (recalls, internet posts, magazine publications, etc.) because I was describing all of the things that I do not need to prove the point.

varmint · April 2002

Well, you have a point. I do sometimes get sarcastic with my portrayal of Ford's problems. Mostly, I'm doing that here because I'm tired of reposting the same debate over and over again. As noted above, it's a fact.

However, you might also want to go back and count the number of times I've said that Ford did the right thing (for the owners) by initiating the recalls.

- The Escape has had more recalls than possibly ever. (what does 'ever' mean anyway?)

"Ever" refers to the fact that I am unaware of any other model having the same number of recalls in recent automotive history. Sure, there are other vehicles that have had numerous recalls over the course of their entire production run, but 5-6 within the first few months? That's gotta be a record. Is this the largest number of recalls ever, or are you aware of another vehicle with more?

The Escape as a consistent MPG problem. (again, this is made up by you).

Typically, the EPA estimates for any given vehicle are accurate on the average mpg. There are always some who get lower mpg than expected and some who get better than expected. Based on my experience, and the surveys provided to the magazine editors, this is not the case with the Escape.

When you take a poll of CR-Vers, you get some who have low averages (20-22 mpg), some who land in the middle (23-24 mpg) and then you have those that average higher (25-27 mpg). It seems that many Escape owners report low averages (15-18 mpg), and many report what should be expected (20-22 mpg). However, we almost never see people reporting higher than average numbers.

Ford has a reputation of poor reliability, (again, incorrect)

Fix Or Repair Daily.
Found On Road Dead.

C'mon. Even Ford has admitted that they have a quality problem. Why can't you see it? Statistically speaking, Ford's fleet has roughly twice as many problems per 100 vehicles as Toyota, Honda, Subaru, and Nissan. It scores lowest of the big 3.

Honda is a tiny company battling the huge Ford. (I don't think Honda classifies as a 'small company')

Well, it is true that Honda isn't as small as they used to be. However, there is still a huge difference between Ford and Honda. Ford and GM produce roughly 3 times as many cars as Honda. If that's not enough, that figure does not include the vehicles produced by Ford affiliates like Volvo and Mazda. Then take into account the many more dealerships Ford has here in North America.

I honestly don't know why you are questioning this. It has nothing to so with the CR-V vs Escape debate. It relates to sales and was only mentioned in that context. A company with many more dealerships has a market advantage. (The Macdonalds vs local burger joint analogy.) In this case, the CR-V is outselling the Escape despite the fact that the Ford is the one with that advantage. I thought that was pretty clear.

odds009 · April 2002

I chose CR-V....Yesssssssss. I placed an order for 2001 Escape when it first came out but after a week I cancelled it. You know why? I heard the 2002 CR-V will be coming out. What a good decision, I love my new CR-V. V6? I don't need V6 for my new V...160HP is more than enough and I can accelerate and change lanes with ease like having a V6. Reliability? My 1999 Honda Accord is flawless. Only been to the dealer for oil change that's all.

Have fun guys!!!

odds009 · April 2002

In my company i have 3 or 4 colleagues with Ford Plan A . They buy Ford products because they only pay 3% below invoice.

rfruth · April 2002

Yep FORD backwards is driver returns on foot (the things I learn here on TH !) & there are well documentated Escape problems (early Escapes from what I can tell) but the Escape seems like a darn good vehicle and choosing between a 40 MPG (HEV) Escape and a 25 MPG CR-V won't be tough now if/when the CR-V delivers 40 MPG it'll be time to reevaluate (MPG isn't everything but its something)

scape2 · April 2002

why don't you comment on the Odessey problems? and their initial problems? I Know this is a CRV room but your claim that Honda is perfect is a joke.
Get out on the net more often, there are plenty of Honda owners that are peeved and upset whom bough Hondas expecting perfection..
I can't believe you think its ok for Honda to withold information about TSB's on www.alldata.com to the public.. why? aren't you the least bit interested to know why?
I agree and admitted Ford has had some quality/relibility issues in the PAST. But your just like a pitbull and won't let go of the PAST. There are thousands upon thousand of satisfied Escape/Tribute owners that own reliable and quality built vehicles. You come across as every Escape/Tribute is just plain garbage.. This is totally untrue..

tidester · April 2002

Actually, you do not have to read all the posts - you can skip over the ones you don't want to read. Nor do you have to respond to them.

tidester
Host
SUVs

subzero206 · April 2002

theyre not all in the past, in the past week or two there was a major recall on Focus's.

varmint · April 2002

Scape2 - Yep. The Ody did have it's share of problems. So did the MDX which comes from the same plant in Canada. Yet, both are statistically better than average in terms of reliability. Now if you want a Honda to pick on, try the new Civic. This is the only Honda I know of that was ranked below the industry average.

Any questions, or can we get back to the CR-V and Escape?

I do not know the reason for stopping the TSB postings on Alldata. I've already covered my speculations on the issue in earlier posts. Reread them if you like. TSBs for Honda used to be included until about a year ago. The information found there was just like the information you find for other manufacturers.

If you think that this is some dastardly corrupt plan by Honda, take a look at how many times Ford tried to shut down BlueOval. Ford simply hasn't succeeded where Honda has.

diploid · April 2002

I tried hard to stay away from posting in here, but I just have to comment on the Odyssey comments.

The very same source (Consumer Reports) that warned customers to stay away from the 1999 model Odysseys also lists the Odyssey (and virtually all of Honda's other products) in the "Good Bets" side of used cars to buy. The Civic is on there as well. The only Fords listed were the F-150 (2wd) and the Escort.

bess · April 2002

It was mentioned Ford 'reputation' for poor quality. According to a JDpowers vehicle dependability study done in 2000 and 2001, Ford ranks above average. Although admitedly not as high as Honda, this still disputes the statement that Ford has a long history of poor reliablity. Also, Ford was ranked highest of the big3 the only one of the big3 that ranked better than average.

Also, between 2000 and 2001, Ford showed more improvement in reliability than Honda, which also contradicts that Fords quality is getting worse over time.

Problems per 100 vehicles:

For 2000: Honda:318 vs Ford:443

http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=486&CatID=1

For 2001: Honda:268 vs Ford:361

http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/01102a.gif

varmint · April 2002

You forgot to mention the decline in dependability from 1999 to 2000. Ford dropped from 365 to 443 problems per 100 vehicles before getting back to where they were at 361 in 2001.

Meanwhile Honda has a more consistent improvement rate going from 326 to 318 to 268.

Aside from Ford's interesting decline during the year that the Escape was introduced, what does this have to do with the CR-V and Escape?

scape2 · April 2002

for posting this data. However its just not good enough for some to believe Ford is improving and isn't the garbage some just have to believe.
I don't want to "pick on Honda" The whole point I am trying to get across is Honda is not perfect. There are plenty of upset, unhappy Honda owners out and about on the net and at other chat sites.
I promised I would post any problems with my Escape. Well, today I had my first real problem. I will never buy another Ford again, they are unreliable, and have shoddy quality. In fact I'm going down and trading it in this weekend.
My back flip-up window has a slight rattle at times.. Thats it, I'm done with my piece of garbage Escape!!
And if you believe this I have a pretty Red bridge in San Fran to sell ya!

carguy62 · April 2002

I thought that bridge was Orange. Don't they have a special color named for it? One of my proudest moments (I need to get out more) was when I drove across the GG bridge. Bridges are a phobia of mine, along with heights, a great combination. Not many bridges where I come from....but I'm getting better. Also have driven Mackinac in Mi and Francis Scott Key in Baltimore and the Bay Bridge and a few others in CA. I remember one (San Mateo??) right on the water, that one was freaky. A few weeks ago it was one acroos the Mississippi from Illinois to Iowa. Now ask me if I want to try doing it with a top heavy SUV (no choice now!).

varmint · April 2002

Scape2 - Where has anyone posted that Hondas are perfect? I mean, other than you. Who has said this? I do not know where you get the idea that they somehow defy physics and refuse to break.

Of course Hondas have their share of problems. I can list a few of them if that will make you happy. The point of this discussion has been that they break less often than Fords. I think that has been proven a dozen ways.

Now can we drop the Honda vs Ford stuff and get back to CR-V vs Escape?

bess · April 2002

I was simply responding to your dribble that
". A reputation for poor quality and reliability from the manufacturer."

So the rules are, you can take the conversation where you want to, but you discourage others disputing your overblown statements?

You also change your tone from post to post. One time your claiming Fords and the Escape are junk, and in the next post you simply claim that Honda's break 'less often' than Fords.

No one really disputes the claim that the previous model year Honda CRV's have a quality advantage over the first year model Escapes.

What I do dispute are the overstatements you make about 'Fords being junk' and 'reputation for poor quality', 'worst of the big3' etc, which I have shown are false.

scape2 · April 2002

is the public getting all the news and real data about Honda products since they withold information on TSBs?? How do we know or even the press know?
I would not argue that in the 80's Toyota/Honda/Nissan had reliability in the bag. Its 2002 now and I find it hard to believe that Ford would not improve its quality or reliability.
Back to CRV vs Escape..
While at the Gym I walked out to find a brown 2002 CRV parked right next to my Escape.. It was obvious what the person was trying to do beings there were 10-20 or more other spots in the parking lot. This just confirms my feelings on the looks of the CRV, tall, frumpy, awkward looking. The 15" tires/wheel combo just doesn't cut it with such a tall vehicle. I still wonder what the rollover rating is going to be on this vehicle. It stand a good 2" taller than the Escape and with the smaller wheels and tires.. if you have had physics it tells me tip over time!

varmint · April 2002

"An Escape will plain out accelerate, out tow, out pull, out haul, out and out manhandle a CRV"

"No way will the CRV catch or even surpass the Escape in sales."

"Why drive a four banger when a six can be had?"

"I would hate to try to pass a car on a two lane road with 3 passengers and the AC on!"

If my posts are starting to sound sarcastic, mean-spirited, or "overblown" it's because that has been the tone of this forum from the beginning. I see that you're not above the same behavior.

"I was simply responding to your dribble..."

Lately, my frustration is showing because here we are beating the same dead horse and reposting the same data over and over again.

As for your last statements... I don't think that you've proven anything false yet. You did provide alternative data, but I don't see how it changes what I've posted.

Consumer Reports, April 2002 (the car issue), page 76... The title of the page is, "Which Vehicles Hold up Best?".

"Among Janpanese manufacturers, the best were Toyota and Subaru, with 12 problems per 100 vehicles, followed by Honda and Nissan, with 14."

"Among domestic brands, Chysler was best for 2001 models, with 22 problems per 100, followed by GM (23) and Ford (26)."

Unlike the JD Powers studies that you posted, CR surveys only include "serious" defects or issues and have other criteria despite being based on the same problems per 100 vehicles scale. Also the CR data is compiled from over 512,000 surveys while the JD Powers results are based on only 28,000 surveys. Another difference is the fact that CR data is based on the vehicles over the past three years. The JD Powers studies focus on one year at a time (the 2000 study is based on used 96 models).

I'm not saying that one is more valid than the other, I'm just pointing out that they are different studies. As such, I cannot see how the link you provided somehow makes my information "false".

varmint · April 2002

Escape height = 69.1 width = 70.1
CR-V height = 66.2 width = 70.2

tidester · April 2002

...Thanks!

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bess · April 2002

Ok, I'll give, your statements from a certain point of view are not false. However,
as I'm able to provide equally valid alternative data for your stated opinions that:
'Fords are junk', 'Fords have a reputation for poor reliability', and 'worst of the big3'.
Your statements do not reflect all of the data available.
In my opinion, even though the Honda does have the advantage, this does not imply that Fords are 'junk'.

Your fustration is understandable to a point. Several of the statements about the Escapes power, acceleration and handling ability are generally seen by most publications as advantages for the Escape. Remember, having the 'best' acceleration or handling may not be as an important factor for some folks as it is for others. My daily driver vehicle is an F250 SuperDuty. No doubt that both the CRV and Escape can do circles around my truck in manuverability. (what was important in my truck purchase was hauling ability and size). However, when buying a mini-suv for our family, handling and performance were more important for me.

One of your points for the Honda was it's relability data. But you don't just indicate that Honda has an advantage there, but instead you try to imply that Fords are 'junk', which is disputable and just your opinion.
I guess your opinion can't be wrong, because really opinions are neither right or wrong, they're just opinions.

However, as you try to give data of why others should share your opinion, it is best for everyone to be accurately informed so someone who chooses to base their opinions mainly on facts can do so.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I believe both the CRV and the Escape are good solid vehicles that will have many happy owners and a few that are disappointed.

bess · April 2002

To be honest, I think mine, varmits, and scapes posts were all very toned down comparted to many of the threads here on Edmunds. No personal attacks etc.. Its just a spirited discussion among adults, (for a change).. relax..

daveghh · April 2002

I own the 2002 Crv and I will admit the tires are small having 15 inch rims! In fact it is rather annoying and I would like larger tires at least.

As for your physics intuition... a small tire height has nothing to do with making the crv more tippy, in fact if anything it would make it less tippy then the same vehicle with taller tires.

That said, I think think the width of the tire would play a minor role in the tippiness of the vehicle but there are other factors that are weighted far greater than the tires size. Noone can look at two suv's side by side and can say with confidence which one has a higher center of gravity. Density and type of metal is a huge factor for example. Also the type of suspension is far more of a significant factor then the tire size.

I was thinking about it... as long as a car wouldn't tip around any kind of corner at reasonably obsessive speeds (oxymoron???) and you were safe in this regard. The CRV and Escape certainly are, look at the slolam data for these two. If I got smashed from the side from somebody in a truck running a red light I would want the car to tip on its side! Rather than take all of the truck into your side you take some of the impact from the truck and some from the road on the opposite side of the vheicle. Much safer!

baggs32 · April 2002

varmint,

I posted a link to an article that appeared in USAToday a few weeks ago about CR's lopsided data, and I think it's time to show it again. After reading it, what little credibility their data had with me was totally thrown out the window. I'll stick to my own surveys (test drives) from now on. Besides, it's more fun that way. Here's the link again in case you missed it the first time. Note how the Pontiac Grand Am data (or actually the lack of data) is based on less than 100 surveys, as was the data for many top sellers. I think their ratings system could use a little re-tooling too.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002-03-12-crcars.htm

carguy62 · April 2002

Really Scape2 you sound like you are the guy from the movie JFK. Do you really believe there is some vast conspiracy on Honda's part to keep the public from knowing how bad their vehicles are? I told you that I was able to get a TSB# for my Honda. Anyone who takes the time can do it.

I really think you are stretching by constantly bringing up this TSB thing. My feeling is if Ford had kept their TSBs to themselves (again I say that is perfectly acceptable, what other industry let's the public know their internal problems?) you would spin it as a positive. Discuss the merits of each vehicle but to keep referring to this TSB conspiracy of yours is a joke.

And unless the CR-V parked next to your Escape was on steroids how do you explain it being taller than your Escape when it has been pointed out that the Escape is almost 3" taller? You seem to make things up based on some of your comments I've read and I think it is becoming more evident with each post.

And really folks, if the statistics are there can you really call it "dribble". Every source sited shows Honda to be more reliable than Ford, or do you still dispute that? Someone probably still thinks the Escape is outselling the CR-V (referring to the quote above). Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

baggs32 · April 2002

I read what was posted on the CR-V board (post numbers 6731, 6737, and 6738), and you'd think that Honda just won the Super Bowl. However, varmint does enlighten everyone in post 6769. The CR-V is a brand new model that was popular before, that always equals strong sales. You're comparing it to a model that is almost two years old now, and that has to compete with three other SUV's on the same dealer lots. One of which is a brand new model that has been selling very well itself (Explorer). Anyway, what does this have to do with anything? I would never choose what I drive according to it's sales figures. There was a guy who posted somewhere that he bought his CR-V for it's exclusivity. Exclusivity? What about liking the way it looks, drives, or fits your needs? Maybe "Ford people" just don't care about sales any more because they're used to seeing their brand at or near the top of the charts for like a million years now. It's just not exciting any more I guess. Do sales figures really weigh in on your decisions?

You guys keep discounting everyone's views by saying that they would be arguing the other way if the issues were reversed. So in other words, they would be saying the same things that all of you are saying? All of this spinning is starting to make me dizzy.

goldencouple1 · April 2002

Baggs32 -

I read the USA article. It is hardly startling. The professor that is supposed to be revealing the shame behind CR's ratings says that CR's data is "some of the best data available". There is a comparison of JD Powers Initial Quality data and CR's longer term data -- apples and oranges; apples and golf balls maybe.

The article is not an indictment of CR data. It is no reason to doubt CR's integrity or applicability. If there is not enough data, CR says so. And there is plenty of data gathered.

And the article reiterates the general principle that Japanese cars are, as a group, consistantly better made and more reliable than American cars.

carguy62 · April 2002

Except when someone makes an incorrect statement related to them. I don't buy my vehicles because everyone else does, but there usually is a reason people buy something (I've gone through this before) over something else. It's up to the individual to decide how to interpret the data.

If someone bought the CR-V for "exclusivity" I think they will be disappointed. With ~150K sold in the US annualy I don't think it qualifies as exclusive. Now the Vue with ~50K sales, that IMO is exclusive ;-).

tidester · April 2002

...scapes posts were all very toned down comparted to many of the threads here on Edmunds.

Thank goodness!

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baggs32 · April 2002

It's some of the best data around because no one else puts the amount of effort that CR does into their research. Their efforts just aren't enough all the time. If you can't come up with data for all models, you didn't do enough work. Also, CR is basing it's reliability ratings on initial quality, so the comparison with JD is allowed. The Escape and CR-V are prime examples of how they can/might be wrong. They give the Escape a low reliability rating because it had some pretty big problems when it first came out. I'm assuming that the last gen CR-V had an excellent reliability rating when it came out, but it did experience problems later in life (a couple of recalls). The truth is, CR shouldn't be rating a vehicles reliability based on the first few months of it's existence. They would be better off waiting until it is five years old or so to make those assumptions.

The article does indict CR's data because they apparently don't gather enough data often enough. I haven't looked at their ratings in a couple of months, but do they tell you how many surveys they received for each model? If they don't, how do you know you are reading a fair comparison of two models? Model A may have only received 101 surveys from people who have had a bad experience and want to voice their opinions. Model B may have received 5000 surveys giving it a good balance between good and bad experiences/opinions. The number of responses does matter when it comes to research of any kind.

The article only reiterates that, according to CR's ratings, Japanese cars are consistently better made and more reliable.

Is it really that hard to believe that CR might not be 100% accurate 100% of the time?

varmint · April 2002

Bess - This business of Honda vs Ford has little to do with the CR-V and Escape. However, that was the subject that the forum kept harping on, so I provided the data that I have. I'm willing to leave it at this: Fords (in general) are of average overall reliability. Hondas are of above-average reliability. Can we agree on that?

If I ever posted that all Fords are junk, I'm pretty sure it was in response to someone else's inflammatory or ridiculous posting. My position on these two specific vehicles is another story.

The Escape has a reputation for poor reliability and statistical evidence that supports that reputation. The '02 CR-V has a strong reputation, but, at this time, the vehicle is still too new to have statistical support. The 97-01 CR-V has a reputation for excellent reliability and several years of statistical evidence to support it. Since the new vehicle is built in the same plant, to the same standards, by the same people, etc. I see no reason to doubt that it will be at least average or better.

varmint · April 2002

Baggs32 - Sales were brought into the picture as the result of debates earlier in this forum. The idea was that the American public wanted a V6 and the majority would not settle for a four cylinder. Unfortunately, that issue led to the quote I posted above:

"No way will the CRV catch or even surpass the Escape in sales."

Amusingly enough, to me anyway, was that the very next day the CR-V topped the Escape in units sold per month. The CR-V also outsold the Liberty which was actually the sales king at the time. It was then pointed out that the Escape and Tribute are very similar vehicles and shouldn't the Tribute be included in the Escape's totals. That's a reasonable point. The next month, the CR-V outsold both the Tribute and Escape combined.

So, the subject of sales has a colorful history in this thread.

Why should the average buyer care? You are correct. They should not. However, to a certain extent, sales may be used to gauge what the public wants in a particular class of vehicles. In this case, they are useful in demonstrating that a four cylinder vehicle can, in fact, be very competitive in this class. That's pretty much all it has to do with this topic.

scape2 · April 2002

seeing things. I swear that 2002 CRV looked taller and was taller than my Escape! Are those Height numbers on Edmunds correct?? I even remember when my friend manager took and compared these two side by side the CRV was noticably taller..???
I know I get heated on some posts, but I try to keep it civil and polite. I just get sick and tired of the same old story.. Escapes are junk, Escapes are all going to fall apart...
If people would get out onto the net and visit other sites (www.escapecentral.com) and see how many happy, reliabile, quality built Escapes are on the road I feel things would swing around as far as reputation goes.
I stand by my 4cyl vs 6cyl stand. Ford has made a V6 available for the same cost as Honda's 4cyl. XLS Escapes can now be had for about 19K with a V6, aluminum wheels, air, pw/dl, am/fm cd and more in my region.
As far as sales numbers. Anyone knows when a new model is introduced it sells like gangbusters its first year. Look what happended with the Focus, Tundra, Beetle, Jetta.. sales through the roof. The new Corolla is selling like crazy now too.
TSB's are information the public should have access too. All other car makers let TSB information flow freely. The fact that Honda has chosen to withold information in regards to their "legendary" reliability makes me ask questions....

diploid · April 2002

The rails for a roof rack on the CR-V when measuring height. It's the same reason why the CR-V is listed as having a longer length than the Escape - the extra length of the mounted spare is included.

varmint · April 2002

I got the numbers from Honda and Ford. I learned not to trust Edmunds on this sort of stuff. In this case, Edmunds has it posted correctly. They did have the manual and automatic GVRs backwards last time I checked.

The height does include the roof rails. The length does not include the spare tire, but does include the bracket which the tire hangs from (so I'm told).

CR-V vs Escape

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