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CR-V vs Escape

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Comments

  • icvciicvci Member Posts: 1,031
    I don't envision the Pilot taking over the Explorer but it will take market share. The pilot wasn't introduced until late summer so I wouldn't think it's sales would have effected Explorer last year. Wait.

    The $.10 dividend is a lot more than they were handing out a year ago. Things are improving slowly, but improving nonetheless.

    Actually, they were handing out .10 in 2001, .30 in 2000, and .50 in 1999. That's not better, that's MUCH worse.

    I don't get why you'd subtract Honda's other products. What would that prove?

    If Ford only sold fleet cars to Hertz and it's 7000 locations that'd be a chunk of sales. Fact is though, they sell to many other rental agencies and many municipalities. Fleet sales do account for a major part of their sales. And, once again, sales don't mean much when you sell them under invoice to your employees, suppliers, and their families.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Sales mean quite a bit if you're in the business of making money. How we interpret them is another matter.

    The issues of sales was first broached back in the early days of this thread. Scape was making a point about American's requiring a V6 in their small SUVs. He stated that, without a V6, the CR-V would never surpass the Escape in sales. Ironically, he was proven wrong the very next day. In this case, sales were used to show that a reasonable amount of the market share does not require a V6. This is a bit tricky though. Many people probably bought the vehicles for reasons other than the engine (styling, reliability, comfort, etc are all still factors). It would be more accurate to say that the lack of a V6 is not a strong deterrent (or that the presence of one is).

    We might also use sales to show how successful a vehicle is. We just have to be careful as sales success does not automatically mean profitability. In this case, there's no doubt the vehicles are generating profits. However it's probably not a stretch to say that Honda makes twice as much per vehicle as does Ford. For that reason, sales might be a better gauge of demand, rather than success.

    Even demand is kinda tricky. Demand is often influenced by availability. While there is no shortage of Honda dealerships, it is likley that there are at least two Ford dealers for every Honda dealer out there. The old analogy comparing McDonald's with a small burger chain is typically used to demonstrate how availability effects sales.

    The short of it is that sales are influenced by many factors. Things like brand loyalty, reputations (deserved and not deserved), incentives, availability, and such prevent us from doing anything specific with them. They're just interesting in the absence of horsepower wars... =)
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "They're just interesting in the absence of horsepower wars..."

    You had to open that can again didn't you?! :)

    "I don't envision the Pilot taking over the Explorer but it will take market share."

    It will take some, I agree. But, the only thing those two have in common is their size so it probably won't be as much as you think. varmint spelled it out pretty well a couple of posts ago too.

    "Actually, they were handing out .10 in 2001, .30 in 2000, and .50 in 1999. That's not better, that's MUCH worse."

    I typed "last year", not "the past three years". They (Ford) were in excellent financial shape and ready to take over the world just a couple of years ago. How did they post a $.10 dividend for 2001 when they lost close to 6 billion dollars? Are you sure that figure is right?

    "I don't get why you'd subtract Honda's other products. What would that prove?"

    Their (Honda) "home" products are very successful too and undoubtedly add to their bottom line which in turn will increase their stock price making the shareholders very happy. Take that stuff away and the stock price isn't as high because the bottom line isn't as high.

    "And, once again, sales don't mean much when you sell them under invoice to your employees, suppliers, and their families"

    Only direct Ford employees can purchase a new vehicle at a couple of percentage points below invoice. All the others you listed pay slightly more than invoice. They've been doing that, and selling to fleets for a long, long time. It's not like they just started doing this last year to make their sales numbers look higher. Back when Honda was a sewing machine manufacturer Ford was still selling millions of vehicles.

    If Honda could produce as many vehicles as Ford or GM, they would do the same exact thing. If you believe that they would not, I know where there is a nice bright white padded room for you to live in. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the people who drive a fleet vehicle for work also buy the same brand for personal use. It works against the brand in some cases too though.
  • icvciicvci Member Posts: 1,031
    Oct 02 $0.10 Cash Dividend
    Jul 02 $0.10 Cash Dividend
    May 02 $0.10 Cash Dividend
    Oct 01 $0.15 Cash Dividend
    Aug 01 $0.30 Cash Dividend
    Apr 01 $0.30 Cash Dividend
    Jan 01 $0.30 Cash Dividend
    Oct 00 $0.30 Cash Dividend
    Jul 00 $0.50 Cash Dividend
    Jun 00 $1.74 Cash Dividend
    Apr 00 $0.50 Cash Dividend
    Jan 00 $0.50 Cash Dividend
    Oct 99 $0.50 Cash Dividend

    Ford is breaking sales records, where is the money going???? Being a Detroit Lions fan, I can tell you one place it isn't going. Two years with a road win...^*%@#$*&!!!

    When did Honda make sewing machines? I get it,you're you being funny. Here's a little history so your retorts can include actual historical info instead of overplayed sewing machine references. http://www.hondacorporate.com/history/timeline.html

    We aren't talking about Honda's stock price, it isn't relative to the discussion. No one is saying Honda makes as much money as Ford. I am saying Ford's wide margin in sales isn't reflected in their stock price.

    Only direct Ford employees can purchase a new vehicle at a couple of percentage points below invoice. All the others you listed pay slightly more than invoice. They've been doing that, and selling to fleets for a long, long time. It's not like they just started doing this last year to make their sales numbers look higher. Back when Honda was a sewing machine manufacturer Ford was still selling millions of vehicles.

    I get an S-Plan discount from Ford. Depending on the vehicle, it can be lower than invoice, most of the time it is at invoice or a little lower. That's S-Plan, not employee. And it is open to ANYONE in my family no matter how far removed. (As long as they live in the USA.)

    I never implied Ford started doing this last year. I am saying they do it, it effects sales in a positive way for them. It steals quite a bit of the thunder from the "people buy Ford products just because they are good" argument. Or that people must approve of Ford because they sell a lot of cars.

    I'm sure Honda would love to produce as many cars as Ford. They're working on it. They haven't been around as long as Ford. Give it time. When was the last Honda US plant closing? When was the last Ford plant closing? Which car manufacturer is selling more and earning more? Which is selling more and earning less?

    Who is selling on reputation and who is selling on incentives? The financial information at the top of this posts answers that question for you. And me.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I don't know where you people live to stoke this "Every CRV on the lot is spoken for" issue??

    I called 4 Honda dealerships in my area and "none of the CRV's that are presently on the lot are pre-sold"... Hype, that is what I call it.. pure Hype. Come on out west there are plenty of CRV's sitting on the lots... along with Pilots and whatever else you want..
    Pilot hurt Explorer sales.. LOL! that is a good one... Even with all the negative publicity the Explorer is still selling quite well.
    There is an article in MotorTrend this month on the new Mustang, I read it and Ford isn't going anywhere.. Also, another interesting article in there about top 10 losing and winning car brands. Funny, Honda doesn't even make the top 10!! for winners in sales volume. And as much as you Honda folks bash Ford, there sales were down only 1percent.. LOL!! Hyundia up 22 percent, Mitsu up 16 percent, KIA up 19 percent.. Honda?? where is HOnda?? And remember, before you say "sales numbers don't mean anything"... You folks constantly bring up CRV sales vs Escape sales numbers.. along with sales make $$$
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I too am thinking about dumping the wifes Accord for a Mazda 6 this summer. After a test drive and reading about this car along with you can get a V6 6 pretty well loaded for the same price as an EX 4cyl Accord! Driving this car was wonderful. The tight suspension, smooth V6, comfort, smooth, and most of all it had a soul.. I know once I get my wife to test drive she will want to exit the Accord.. I hope Ford comes out with the new Taurus modeled after the 6...
  • icvciicvci Member Posts: 1,031
    GREAT CAR! Wait until you see the RX-8. 250 Hp, rear wheel drive, four doors, and a 6 speed for $26000. IT ROCKS!!!

    I know, it belongs on another thread.
  • icvciicvci Member Posts: 1,031
    No one is aying Ford isn't selling vehicles. I am saying they aren't making much money on them.

    As for CR-V's and Pilots on the lot... you may have noticed that little holiday that took place over the last month. This is the slowest time of the year for anything retail. Especially automobiles. I still don't see them offering anything close to 0% on the CR-V or Pilot.
  • icvciicvci Member Posts: 1,031
    http://www.jdpower.com/auto/search/index.asp


    Check out the 2002 segment studies.

  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "When did Honda make sewing machines?"

    I swear to God I read an article that said Mr. Honda sold sewing machines to fund his race team in the early years. I can't find it anywhere else though. They even coined the phrase "smooth as a sewing machine" for his engines because of those sales. Maybe it was a different car company?

    Those financials above don't show us what kind of dividend they posted for December of 2001 which is when (I think) they posted the big loss. That was one year ago.

    "We aren't talking about Honda's stock price, it isn't relative to the discussion."

    You posted Ford's a little while back for some reason. It wasn't relative either.

    "I get an S-Plan discount from Ford. Depending on the vehicle, it can be lower than invoice, most of the time it is at invoice or a little lower."

    We bought our Escape on the X-Plan and were told that the only plan to offer a lower price was the A-Plan which is only for direct Ford employees. The X-Plan allowed us to purchase the vehicle at 3 or 5 percent (I can't remember which) above the dealer invoice. It could go below with incentives. There were none on the Escape a year ago when we bought it though.

    "It steals quite a bit of the thunder from the "people buy Ford products just because they are good" argument."

    But like I said before, take away the fleet sales and they still sell more than Honda. Someone must think they are good. Right?

    "I am saying Ford's wide margin in sales isn't reflected in their stock price."

    And I'm not disagreeing. Give it time though.

    "GREAT CAR! Wait until you see the RX-8. 250 Hp, rear wheel drive, four doors, and a 6 speed for $26000. IT ROCKS!!!"

    I received an e-mail yesterday to place an advanced order for one. It was pretty tempting I must say. Unfortunately, those darn wife thingies always seem to get in the way during those momentary lapses in judgment.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    scape,
    Now that I've seen the new Mustang, I've changed my mind. All I have to do is change the wife's too!

    The Mustang is supposed to come out sometime from mid to late 2004. I THINK I can wait that long.

    It's quite a dilemma!
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    Dividends don't necessarily follow profits.

    Companies that have the cash and want to keep the shareholders happy (and the stock price stable) may declare a dividend despite a loss. And some companies may make money but not declare a dividend, if they think their shareholders won't mind.
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    Re the availability of CR-Vs, I only know what I read in the papers, and here at edmunds.

    You're probably right, it's probably a big conspiracy to keep the demand up.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    you did. I just know what I see and what I have checked on. In the west there is not shortage of CRV's, Pilots or Oddessey vans... Nor are all the CRV's sitting on the dealerships lots I pass by all pre-sold... Where did Edmunds post there is a shortage of CRV's??? Steve?
  • odie6lodie6l Member Posts: 1,173
    I feel your pain with the Lions... I'm still a loyal fan of the Lions (even with a wife who likes the Packers & Giants). I live smack in the middle of the Eagles-Steelers-Ravens-Redskins quadrangle and believe me..it's tough being a Lions fan.

    The only thing that scares me about the Escape is that ford will do some kind of redesign of it and make the thing $40 + thousand like the T-bird and Mustang (and it will probally end up looking like a Bronco ii.)

    But for now I have not had any issues with the escape. I'm a Happy owner (and Lions fan)

    Odie
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    Push your choke in.

    No, you didn't call it a "conspiracy". It was my exaggeration of what you were implying. You understand exaggeration, right?

    I referred to the various posters here who have been told they'd have to go on a waiting list, not to some official edmunds.com statement.

    Maybe CR-V availability is different in your part of the country. That doesn't make the other posters wrong.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Does this mean we don't have to go search the entire editorial side now?

    whew! :-)

    Steve, Host
  • odie6lodie6l Member Posts: 1,173
    I can see these popping up everywhere because of acid rain.


    Http://www.carcoon.com


    this thing is for people who really obcess over their vehicles. I can tell you I DON'T want one.


    Odie

  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Is that like the thing Michael Jackson was sleeping in to stay young? :)

    What ever happened to a garage?

    Oh, and in case this is my last post before the weekend:

    GO STEELERS!!!!!!
  • icvciicvci Member Posts: 1,031
    Honda plans to release a mid-size pickup along the lines of the Dodge Dakota. It will be built off the Pilot/MDX platform on a unibody frame and powered by a 24-valve six-cylinder engine. Honda’s Lincoln, Ala., assembly plant will be expanded for production.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    a car frame??? Oh-come on!@! Let me guess, Honda will get raving reviews, tons of fluff and applause for a "revolutionary" truck.. When anyone knows people here in the U.S. trucks are used to tow, haul, pull and 4x4!! Hard to do all this with a car frame.... No V8?? The Dakota has a V8, and so will the new Chev Colorado.. Honda is already behind.. Torque and HP/Torque curve.. something Honda does not understand...

    Lets get back to CRV vs Escape now.....

    This room has died.. Lets get it going again...
    The Escape plain out powers the CRV, handles better, better SUV all around per Motor Trend!! Escape also is better looking.. I have yet to read a reviewer say anything about the CRV's great looks... LOL@@!
  • rleirlei Member Posts: 26
    Scape, you may not be able to tow a 6000 lb boat around by this new truck (assuming built on frame with relatively lower torque than v8s), but I would guess it will serve well for grand ma coming back from Home Depot with her garden needs, or business needing a truck but really only need to load it lightly. My grand ma doesn't need a v8, nor does a smart business man when he doesn't need the capacity. But a truck is useful to them.

    When Honda Civic / Toyota Corolla were first introduced in 70', most people were skeptical about these small, plain, cheap looking cars. Now they have to fend really hard to people understanding this philosophy.

    I would invest my money in companies exploring this idea/market (it is very successful in a lot countries, actually, before coming to North American, I had never seen a v8 truck, not because poeple don't need to haul stuffs outside of North American) , but not in companies that build $50K truck just to make a statement.
  • hondaman02hondaman02 Member Posts: 250
    Another win for the CRV! Since it is sooooo underpowered and ugly and all I guess all those people must be loseres!

    http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/030113-1.htm
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    rlei,
    You're right, it may not be a bad idea. Time will tell. I for one don't agree though. Toyota has been trying the truck thing for some time now with little to moderate success, and their trucks are closer to "real" trucks.

    A pickup truck based on a car? Let's get back to reality now. It, like the Element, will not sell very well because they only cater to a very small portion of the population. They should just vary the CR-V and Pilot a little more instead. For example, they could modify the Pilot to be like the upcoming GMC Envoy XL which is an SUV with the capability of carrying larger loads due to a convertible rear end. It's almost the best of both worlds.

    Remember, Honda rushed another truck to market to "catch up". It was called the Passport.

    I know, that's a different story.
  • daveghhdaveghh Member Posts: 495
    Honda is a smart company. If they build a truck based on a car frame they will surely reinforce the frame where it will be necessarry to meet a basic truck standard.

    My guess is it will compete between the Ford Ranger and the Ford 150. That is a decent niche to be in.

    Have you heard of the new Nissan Titan Truck coming out soon! The standard v8 is more powerful then the Toyota, Ford, Checy and Dodge. It can tow 9,400 pounds!!!
  • icvciicvci Member Posts: 1,031
    The Escape plain out powers the CRV, handles better, better SUV all around per Motor Trend!! Escape also is better looking.. I have yet to read a reviewer say anything about the CRV's great looks... LOL@@!

    Go to jdpower.com. Click automobile. Enter the 2002 Escape, then enter the 2002 CR-V. The CR-V beats your Escape in every category they polled. Including styling. Sorry, you lose. Again.

    Then go to the left hand side of the homepage. Click on the news and awards section, then scroll down to segment. Click the on compact sport utility and weep. The categories aren't exactly clear but, you'll find the CR-V wins AGAIN.

    And I'm sorry but that Motor Trend article wasn't a resounding win for the Escape. R/T testers seemed to say the Escape was their choice, because they had to pick one. And calling the Escapes exterior stying "vanilla" isn't a compliment.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    Does anyone else see the irony in laughing at the idea of a car-based truck when you own a car-based SUV?
  • beatfarmerbeatfarmer Member Posts: 244
    Car based...truck based...house based...so what? I much prefer the more accurate terms of unibody vs body on frame, Since my first two cars, not trucks, but four door sedans, were body on frame.

    For a daily driver, I prefer the structural rigidity of a unibody vehicle over a BOF. Fewer squeaks and rattles.

    I have more of an issue with a FWD pickup than one based on a unibody chassie.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I missed where it is stated that this "truck" would be FWD. That would be a very bad thing. I hope they plan on offering a real 4X4 system too. Does Honda even make one?

    "Does anyone else see the irony in laughing at the idea of a car-based truck when you own a car-based SUV?"

    Good point! But the Escape, CR-V, and all other SUV's are basically glorified station wagons. This "truck" from Honda would be a glorified El Camino. We all know how that one turned out for GM. :)
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    It'll most likely be FWD - the only offerings from Honda that are RWD are the S2000 and NSX.

    I think the people who buy it don't want a RWD truck because they won't really need a truck, they just want to be seen in one and be able to utilize the cargo bed of a truck. I doubt they'll tow anything. Very similar to the cross-over SUV frenzy.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    But if you put something heavy in the bed of a FWD "truck", the front end will lose some weight over the wheels thus decreasing traction. This could be a problem on dirt, gravel, or any other loose terrain.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I Know I own a car based mini-SUV..
    Fact is in a car based truck you cannot tow, haul, pull or offroad like you can with a truck frame..
  • odie6lodie6l Member Posts: 1,173
    isn't GM getting honda engine's to use in their vehicles and Honda is getting some of GM's drivetrains for use in some of their upcomming vehicles.

    But who knows?

    Odie
  • daveghhdaveghh Member Posts: 495
    When referring to towing...

    I have never understood those people who think that having a front wheel drive truck is wrong. WHY?

    This is why I don't agree with that assessment, or shall we say "common misconception".

    Ok, the tongue weight of the trailer should be 10% of the total weight. This means, if you are towing, lets say....4,500 pounds, the amount of weight on the tongue should be around 450 pounds. 450 pounds is MINUSCULE compared to the weight of the engine in the front of todays vehicles!!!
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    baggs - I don't think the target audience will carry concrete blocks around town. This "truck" will be for the city dwellers who buy plants and decorations from Loewe's. He will occasionally need to transport a couch from Ikea.

    I see plenty of RWD pickup trucks that do those things more than they do the heavy duty stuff. That task is relegated to the full-sizers, which this Honda will not be.
  • hondaman02hondaman02 Member Posts: 250
    Scape.........you finally said something we can all agree to! #3050. However, you do always stress that your Escape is so much superior in this area when in reality, if you put 3500 lbs. on that hitch you would be in for a big surprise in everything but straight line driving.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "I don't think the target audience will carry concrete blocks around town."

    That's a good thing too because they won't be able to.

    I can't believe Honda, since all of you think they're so smart, would go through all the trouble of re-tooling a plant to build a vehicle that won't sell very well at all. There just isn't a market for it when people can buy a real truck for the same amount of money and know that it's skills are there if you ever need them. Even if you won't. Today's pickup trucks are very car-like already anyway. This new Honda "truck" is not really going to set the world afire with great handling and/or performance.

    I wonder how much they plan on charging for this thing. The Pilot bases at what, around $27,000? A Ranger bases at about $12,000 and a Dakota at around $20,000. The two SUV's that have spawned from them base competitively with the Pilot though.

    By the way, where did this news come from? I have not read about it anywhere else.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    OK, I think I found it:

    http://auto123.sympatico.ca/autonews/index.spy?cmd=view&artid=6833&pg=2

    Honda might want to take a long hard look at the sales performance of the Subaru Baja before they get in too deep. It sounds like their "truck" will compete more directly with it than with the real pickups. I can see more of a use for something like that (four seats with a fold down gate to extend the bed; e.g. Baja, Avalanche) than an actual pickup truck based on a car. Those Baja/Avalanche type things are pretty cool if you ask me.

    All we need is for some company to make one that's a little easier on the eyes. :)
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    "I can't believe Honda, since all of you think they're so smart, would go through all the trouble of re-tooling a plant to build a vehicle that won't sell very well at all."

    Honda's plants are set up in a manner in which re-tooling would take only a few months, the fastest in the industry. Basically they can stop, re-tool, build vehicle A, then stop, re-tool, build vehicle B, at a much faster rate than the industry.

    "Honda's initial plans to build a mere 75,000 Pilots hardly sounds threatening. But that's where Honda's wizardry with flexible manufacturing comes in. Together, the company's two plants in Alliston, Ont., and Lincoln, Ala., can churn out any combination of 300,000 Pilot and MDX SUVs and Odyssey minivans. That allows Honda to concentrate on whichever model happens to be in greatest demand.

    Such flexibility eludes old-style mass manufacturers like Ford. The No. 2 auto maker is geared to cranking out hundreds of thousands of Tauruses, Explorers, and F-150 pickups, with as many as three factories dedicated to each vehicle. But in a fragmented market, "it's hard for any manufacturer to sell two plants-full of one product--or even to sell out one plant," says James J. Padilla, head of Ford North America. When demand for any vehicle drops, Ford is stuck with extra capacity that its union contract won't let it shed."

    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/02_04/b3767077.htm

    See...they are smart.
  • icvciicvci Member Posts: 1,031
    just got done reading a review of the 2001 CR-V from cartalk.com (great site)

    One of their paragraphs sums up the CR-V better than any I've ever read.

    "It's still the "minivan of SUVs." It's practical above all. It's the descendant of the old four-wheel-drive Civic wagon. It's a good SUV for someone who really, in his heart, doesn't want an SUV. It's an SUV for someone who can't commit to a full-size, emission-spewing behemoth but still wants a vehicle to go cross-country skiing in."
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    This is what I was looking for:

    "In theory, each of Honda's four major North American assembly plants can produce almost any model sold in this market."

    http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=3622
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "See...they are smart."

    No. Their plants are newer. Some of the big three's plants have been around for over fifty years. Their newer plants in other countries, which we don't know much about unfortunately, are probably more flexible like Honda's U.S. plants.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    baggs - Did you read the second link I posted? Honda faced the same problem that Ford faces today - their plants are "newer" because they took the time and effort to implement that scheme. Before that, if you read the link, the Honda's plants were just as cumbersome as the rest of the industry.

    "Their newer plants in other countries, which we don't know much about unfortunately, are probably more flexible like Honda's U.S. plants."

    That holds very little water. And the fact that Ford isn't bragging about it tells me that it's probably non-existent.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "That holds very little water. And the fact that Ford isn't bragging about it tells me that it's probably non-existent."

    Same goes for the fact that Honda doesn't brag about how great people think their vehicles are in other parts of the world.

    "their plants are "newer" because they took the time and effort to implement that scheme."

    Their plants are also newer in that they were built within the past 10 - 15 years. I would think that it would be harder to modify an older building.

    Ford has had modular plants for a little while now. The Ranger and Explorer were coming off the same line (don't know if they still are) since the Explorer started production. That's about 13 years now I believe.

    You have to remember too that Honda only has a handful of plants in the U.S. whereas the big three each have many each. Which, again, are old. Television wasn't even invented when some of these plants were built and you think that adding robots would be a quick and simple process there?

    My real point is, the big three have flexible plants. They just aren't updating all of them as fast as the Japanese are. That doesn't mean they are "smarter". Just faster in this case.
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    "I can't believe Honda, since all of you think they're so smart, would go through all the trouble of re-tooling a plant to build a vehicle that won't sell very well at all." -baggs

    My money's on Honda.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    You're joking right?

    Do my wife and I own the only Honda that doesn't blow brain washing gas out of the HVAC vents?
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    "Same goes for the fact that Honda doesn't brag about how great people think their vehicles are in other parts of the world."

    Huh? Does Honda brag about how great people think their vehicles are over here as well? You're confusing the issues. I guarantee that if Ford had such an assembly line, the world would know about it it, even if it was in some remote island in the Pacific. But they don't.

    "By mid-decade, half of Ford's North American body shops will be flexible. That puts them years behind the Japanese. Grade: B-"

    That's the grade they received. You say that Honda is faster - to me, that means they're doing something right, which means they're smarter than Ford, considering what a big financial clout Ford is compared to Honda.

    "The flexible conveyors were a costly investment. At its plant in Marysville, Ohio, Honda ripped out a conveyer system last year that had been installed just a few years earlier. The original conveyor handled several different models, but the automaker wanted even more flexibility.

    So Honda spent $300 million overhauling the production lines at Marysville and East Liberty, Ohio. By year end, those two plants will be producing six models."

    $300 million - Ford has that money. They just don't want to spend the money.

    "My real point is, the big three have flexible plants. They just aren't updating all of them as fast as the Japanese are. That doesn't mean they are 'smarter'. Just faster in this case."

    Read the link I posted - it is clearly written that the Big3 have flexible plants (they were even "graded"). If you would just read the links (instead of sitting there making excuses for Ford) you would've read that - I don't see why you're trying to make it a "point." That was never the issue - you initially implied that Honda would regret making a FWD pickup as its assembly plants would suffer when no one buys them, purposely neglecting that it has the fastest and most flexible assembly plants in the industry. And I never said Honda was smart - it was more of a rebuttal against your sarcasm.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "Read the link I posted - it is clearly written that the Big3 have flexible plants (they were even "graded")."

    I did. It's obvious now that we both have a different opinion about what it has to say.

    "If you would just read the links (instead of sitting there making excuses for Ford) you would've read that - I don't see why you're trying to make it a "point"

    If you would open up your mind a little maybe Honda wouldn't seem so great any more. It's time to stop believing everything you read. ;)

    Also, I'm not making excuses for Ford, they do a pretty good job of that on their own. The only similarities between Ford and Honda are that they both produce automobiles. They are two different completely different animals after that.

    "I guarantee that if Ford had such an assembly line, the world would know about it it, even if it was in some remote island in the Pacific. But they don't."

    and...

    "Read the link I posted - it is clearly written that the Big3 have flexible plants (they were even "graded")."

    So they don't have flexible plants, but they do (and they were even "graded")?

    "$300 million - Ford has that money. They just don't want to spend the money."

    So just because the article says it cost Honda that much it automatically means that it will cost Ford or any of the others the same? Older plants cost more to convert. Read the article below. Note that the F-15's NEW Rouge plant is flexible. It also makes mention of Ford's upcoming flexible engine assembly lines.

    http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/010301.html

    Here's another:

    http://www.fordtruckworld.com/news/assemblysystem.asp

    Another:

    http://www.assemblymag.com/execute-vSection-Articles-vSub-Detail-- vSideBar-Active-vrID-C79D3859AD324A49A7683F5F1FF95CDD-vDate-Novem- ber+2002.htm

    Note how that new Rouge plant is actually the old one (85 years old) remodeled and converted to accommodate flexible assembly. How much did it cost? $2 billion.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    "So they don't have flexible plants, but they do (and they were even 'graded')?"

    I said "I guarantee that if Ford had such an assembly line..." i.e., the most flexible assembly plant in the industry, not just any flexible plant.

    From your article:
    "By the end of the decade, the company expects 75% of its vehicle assembly operations to be changed over to the flexible process."

    By the end of the decade...it's 2003...you're going to have to wait 7 more years for Ford to catch up.

     My point is that Honda has the fastest one in the industry because they took the initiative and money to take on this massive overhaul in their plants, which contrary to your opinion, aren't just faster because they're newer. Honda spent $300 million to overhaul their plants - that's a chunk of money for a company the size of Honda.

    $2 billion for Ford to remodel the plant? They can easily recoup the cost of that when they're selling cars that people want and not laying off workers or idling plants by using the antiquated assembly lines.

    "If you would open up your mind a little maybe Honda wouldn't seem so great any more. It's time to stop believing everything you read. ;)"

    But they are. Look:
    "Small by automaker standards, Honda has annual sales of $58 billion, one-third that of industry leader General Motors (nyse: GM - news - people ) and half that of archrival Toyota Motor (nyse: TM - news - people ). For Honda, keeping profitability consistently high, and bending over backward to do so, is a matter of survival.

    In the auto world, there is only one way to make a lot of money: Keep your factories humming and sell everything you make, something at which Honda excels. According to the most recent Harbour Report on automotive manufacturing, Honda's North American plants ran at 100% of capacity last year, the highest in the industry. Toyota was second, at 96%, and Nissan was third, at 89%. Not surprisingly, Honda made more money per car than any other automaker, $1,661. That's nearly $400 more per car than Nissan Motor (nasdaq: NSANY - news - people ) and $500 more than Toyota. GM was the only domestic producer to make money: just $337 per car. Ford Motor (nyse: F - news - people )? It lost $1,913."

    http://www.forbes.com/2002/11/14/cz_jf_1114honda_print.html
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    No, I'm not joking.

    Honda has not gotten to be such a successful car company by doing dumb things. Especially considering they are not really a big company, compared to other manufacturers that have models at or near the top in sales in their category.

    Their track record is very good (and more verifiable than yours). Hence, my money's on them.

    p.s. I don't own a Honda, so I'm not subject to their "brain-washing gas" via HVAC. Maybe you've inhaled too many Ford fumes.
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