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Comments
I think the company will take exception at someone constantly badmouthing them.
http://www.crv.com/
Having said that... If they manage to get it into 20% of their cars by 2010, they'll be where Toyota, Nissan, and Honda were a few years ago. But I suppose they beat GM to the punch. That's gotta be worth something to somebody.
Back to the Escape...
As I understand it, the upcoming Edge is supposed to be a replacement for the Freestyle. The Freestyle is a nice vehicle, but it's not selling well. Why not? Because it's a quality vehicle. Ford needs to charge a higher price to cover the costs of building it. They can't use huge incentives to convince people to buy it.
Baggs is right. The Edge is not a replacement for the Escape. It's more like competition for the Highlander and Murano. It looks like Mazda is doing their own thing and has no interest in reviving the Tribute. And I've heard no word about Ford developing a replacement without Mazda.
So, I expect the Escape will soldier on for a few more years. It will get a few tweaks, be sold with huge incentives, and become the darling of the rental car world. In short, it will become the next Taurus in Ford's line-up.
Toyota? Their V6 was weaker than Ford's until they introduced the 3.3L currently being used in a few models. Ford will be on track with them but still lag behind Nissan and Honda regarding engines.
As I understand it, the upcoming Edge is supposed to be a replacement for the Freestyle. The Freestyle is a nice vehicle, but it's not selling well. Why not? Because it's a quality vehicle.
That's what I've heard too. However the Freestyle will be renamed and wear a Mercury badge only when the Edge debuts. So it'll still be around only it will cost a little more and probably have better NVH levels as well as interior materials. It might look better with a Mercury grille too.
And I've heard no word about Ford developing a replacement without Mazda.
I believe development for the Escape the rest of the world gets has moved to Taiwan or somewhere else over there. That hints that the Escape, or Maverick if you will, will carry on overseas but not here.
contour svt 2.5 duratec - 200 hp. it was a v6. how long since they made those?
back it off a bit, make it a bit larger for more torque, 3.0 duratec.
1996 sho 2 cylinders added to the 2.5 for 3.4 liters, 235 hp.
ford does know how to make good engines, sometimes the engineers get overruled by the bean counters to maximize profits.
the escape has a good basic design. it is passing the test of time. i look at it this way, if it came out as an '06, would it look out of date? i say no.
I believe 1998 was the first year for the SVT.
My dad's '96 Sable has a 200 HP Duratec30 in it as well courtesy of a true dual exhaust system. You'll notice that most 200HP Duratec30s now only have one exhaust outlet. What were Honda and Toyota's V6' making back then?
Ever since Jaques the ripper screwed things up Ford has been losing money. The Duratec35 is a big deal for them because they haven't been able to put something competitive on the market due to said cash flow problems. Sure other makes have passed them in recent years but at least they're trying to fight back. They seem to have made the 35 with consideration for the future as it can handle direct fuel injection, turbocharging, and probably a displacement bump. Folks on a Mustang site are salivating to get it in a Mustang so they can add nitrous. Apparently, keep in mind I'm no nitrous expert, the 35 can handle a good dose of that too.
Then why does certain someone keeps harping on and, on, and on about the 40 ft. lbs advantage if it can't be used in real life?
contour svt 2.5 duratec - 200 hp. it was a v6. how long since they made those?
back it off a bit, make it a bit larger for more torque, 3.0 duratec.
1996 sho 2 cylinders added to the 2.5 for 3.4 liters, 235 hp.
ford does know how to make good engines, sometimes the engineers get overruled by the bean counters to maximize profits.
the escape has a good basic design. it is passing the test of time. i look at it this way, if it came out as an '06, would it look out of date? i say no.
If you want to venture off the topic of Escape and CR-V. Honda made the F20 (S2000 engine) that produces 240 hp out of 2 liter, 4 cylinder engine. Then bored it out to 2.2 liter to boost torque.
Honda broke the 100 hp per liter way back in the early 90's.
I think, implying that Ford knows engine development is like saying Big mac diet is good for you.
Besides, wasn't SVT engine developed by Coswoth, a division of Ford racing, not really a Dearborn design.
The Edge is coming out next year, along with the Aviator and Mazda CX-7, and will be a tad larger than the Escape but a tad smaller than the Explorer. It too is a crossover but, unlike the Escape, is based on a much more solid platform (Mazda6) and will compete with the likes of the Pilot, Highlander, Murano, etc. The Lincoln version (Aviator) will compete with the R330, MDX, etc. A smaller SUV is supposed to bow sometime in '08 or '09 that will be smaller than the Escape and that may be when the Escape fades off into the sunset. All of the new crossovers mentioned above will get the Duratec35 in some form. Probably standard on the Lincoln but the other two might have a turbo Duratec23 as the standard mill.
These are just rumors now so time will tell.
Problem with Ford and other domestics, they don't want the bad publicity of the previous model follow the new model, so they change names.
Where is the Pinto? Where is the Escort? Where is Celebrity? Where is Cavalier?
Honda still has Civic and Accord and Toyota still has Corolla and Camry, after 30-some years.
If Ford products were so good, they would not change names every 4-5 years. If the Edge is the successor for the Escape, why not call it ummm, ESCAPE? If Focus is the successor for Escort, why not call it ESCORT? Because Ford thinks its buyers are brainless drones, and would not realize that the new car is the same old car with the same problems. Instead of changing names, they should spend more time in the R&D designing quality products, so they would not have to change names so often. But that would be too obvious, or not so obvious to some.
How will the Edge be able to compete with the Pilot? It is larger in every interior dimension than the Explorer (exception of Explorer front legroom edging out Pilot by an inch), and the Edge is going to be smaller? Should prove to be an interesting thing to see. Seems like it might compete better with the Chevrolet Equinox/Pontiac Torrent. They are just slightly smaller than their Trailblazer sibling, and are crossovers. I havent seen an Edge concept or anything, I'm just wondering how a smaller vehicle expects to be more competitve than the larger one, which still happens to be smaller. Thanks for any info on the Edge, and I apologize for maintaining this sidetracked discussion.
thegrad
Simply put, both are crossovers whereas the Explorer isn't. I'm not sure whether the Edge/CX-7/Aviator will have a third row or not so that might keep it from competing well with the Pilot.
I was just making a general assumption in saying it would compete with the Pilot due to the nature of the two. The Pilot is after all an Accord at heart whereas the Edge will be a Mazda6/Fusion at heart.
If you want to get technical, the Duratec30 block was actually designed by Porsche and Cosworth and the Taurus SHO motor mentioned previously was designed and built by Yamaha.
hondas first suv was a... um... er... isuzu.
i think it was a good idea. got people used to a honda suv. then they designed their own. honda pickups... oops.
the escape is a good practical design and that does not go out of style every couple of years.
The V6 in the Honda Accord is not strictly for the super high output model. It's the ordinary, garden-variety V6. Period. Same with the Altima. Ford's everyday V6s (until now) have been lacking.
To bring this back on topic, the simple fact that Ford (and others) needed to use a V6 to match Honda's I4-powered CR-V is somewhat telling.
Yeap, I think this sums it all up. Just the fact that we re comparing the V6 power Escape to I4 powered CR-V says something about the CR-V.
I have to disagree. Ford, and others, didn't use a V6 to match Honda's I4 power. They used the V6, and I'll add rebates too for your sake varm , to gain points with buyers so they could steal sales from Honda. It worked.
The Escape's V6 is more than adequate for the application, it was readily available, and it was cost effective during hard times. Do you think Ford, or the other domestics, gave one crap about spending boat loads of money developing an I4 to compete with Honda? Keep dreaming if you did.
Yes, the V6 was a cheap and easy solution. And I'd say that it worked. But cheap and easy does not always make the best long-term solution. Just look at how much Ford has used incentives to prop up sales of the Duratec cars. And since we're talking about how well the cars were engineered, cheap and easy just doesn't sound very sexy, now does it?
I mean, there's will be a new CR-V in 2007. We probably won't see a new Escape. He who laughs longest...
I give props to Ford/Mazda for developing the 2.3L used in several cars. It's a good engine for small cars. But it just doesn't have what it takes to motivate the Escape/Tribute. Their 4 cyl option has always been a lackluster afterthought.
Once it becomes a Merc, they will add content to help justify the price. But that strategy hasn't worked, yet. I see no reason to expect it will again. Like the Mariner, they're just getting rid of excess capacity.
the escape v6 is not a cheap solution. it is one that works and continues to work for the buyers. it took years for honda to catch up. the I-4 maxed out, so they had to put in a 5 speed transmission. good, they keep trying.
the escape and the mariner are still selling well, and don't forget about the maverick.
PS - As always, I think it is important to actually research what one says before commenting.
PPS - Five speed automatics aren't all that uncommon. In fact, Ford is heavily marketing its new six speed, as I type this.
:surprise:
J/K
:P
try this: the frosting is acura, but the cake is honda.
OK, seriously, the comment was that the I-4 was "maxed out" and requires a 5 speed automatic to be competitive. However, if one were to check the Acura line, one would find that the 2.4 puts out 200 hp. Hmmmm....the logical conclusion, therefore, would be the I-4 is NOT "maxed out".
Furthermore, Ford offers a six-speed automatic with the 3.0 Duratec in its Ford Fusion. If the reasoning that offering more gears is an indication that an engine has been "maxed out", then the 3.0 Duratec is in fact, "maxed out". That's the wrong conclusion, though. That's my point. The original statement was wrong, and the reasoning was even "wronger". I don't know any other way to say it.
Lastly, the 2.4 puts out an addition 50 horsepower in the Acura application, so the statement the I-4 was "maxed out" was drastically wrong. There comes a time when it is okay to admit one was wrong...
what i meant about the 2.4 being maxed out is in an suv, not a much lighter coupe. heavier vehicles need more torque. the 5 speed allows the cr-v to get into the power band more often.
PS - The best selling V6 Camry is the 3.0.
Typically a Mercury is only $500-$1000 more expensive than the comparable Ford model. For that money you get higher quality interiors and more standard features, usually safety related. Making it look fresher should be their main focus right now if you ask me.
It would if they'd use Mazda's version from the 6 and 3 and Fusion/Milan as well as the 5-speed ATX from the Fusion/Milan.
But cheap and easy does not always make the best long-term solution. Just look at how much Ford has used incentives to prop up sales of the Duratec cars. And since we're talking about how well the cars were engineered, cheap and easy just doesn't sound very sexy, now does it?
Sexy? Depends on how many beers you've had.
No it's not a good long term solution but deperate times call for desperate measures. I would like to think that Ford realized it's cheaper and a much better long term solution to come up with an all new vehicle, named Escape or not, than to deal with the old/current one. I'd rather see a more viable option in the future than another warmed over, decade old platform tweak. They finally got it with the Mustang, Explorer, and Fusion. Let's see what the future of the entry crossover slot holds at FMC.
Resale value! Ha! Ha! Ha!Ha! Ha! Ha!Ha! Ha! Ha!
And I thought this thread was funny before... Maaaan, you open the wrong door, resale value
Okay, you've got me, there.
"No it's not a good long term solution but deperate times call for desperate measures. I would like to think that Ford realized it's cheaper and a much better long term solution to come up with an all new vehicle, named Escape or not, than to deal with the old/current one."
Well, changing the name presents a marketing problem. If Ford does change the name to Equator, then two factors come into play.
1. Ford will have to pay $ to market this new name. The NA buyer will need to get acquainted with this new vehicle.
2. Changing it suggests the name "Escape" is damaged goods.
Whattzamatta? Now you're upset about getting bested by a 156 hp CR-V instead of a 160hp version?
By the way, wasn't all this discussed during "The Great Cover-Up of 2004" when the Escape's hp and torque dropped several digits?
"right.... The Ford/Mazda 2.3 does just fine in moving the Escape/Tribute right along."
We're talking 12+ seconds from 0-60, Scape. If that's your idea of "just fine", the CR-Vs I4 must be blazingly fast.
The number actually has nothing to do with how the cars compare, it is how usable the horsepower they have is. I've never driven an Escape, have driven a CR-V, and can say that while its not a hot-rod, I don't know a mini-SUV that is. I would be willing to believe that the Escape has an overall advantage with a V-6, but the CR-V makes a more efficient use of its engine, and wins the compromise of fuel-efficiency/power/and interior room.
Hope this clears things up (on the testing procedures) for anyone wondering why the numbers changed!
However we do know that the new, slightly larger crossover will the the Edge while the smaller one is still a mystery. Maybe we'll see the Equator name there but as you said, it makes more sense to use Escape.
It would seem like you are always of the opinion that more torque and HP always mean better. Why then doesn't Ford put in a V8 or even a V10 in the Escape? It would have to be better wouldn't it?
As far as the Escape moving around with more confidence than a CR-V that's very subjective. I think people would have more confidence driving around in an Escape if it had VSC like the CR-V. Lets face it if someone doesn't tow most people find the I4 in the CR-V fine.
an suv usually has different engine tuning than a sports car. maybe honda decided to try the 5 speed with the current engine to get some experience, before they hook up something more powerful to it.
Huh? The CR-V came out several years before the Escape. The 2nd generation CR-V came out after the Escape debuted. How exactly is Honda playing catch up?
look at it this way, what changes to they make to the civic, since last introduced? they didn't have to because it sold well the way it was. the cr-v has had several upgrades(powertrain and features). this was to try to reach the escape 'line in the sand'.
Actually, I'm being sarcastic. I think it's asinine to contend nothing has happened in the automotive world in the past five or six years which would necessitate upgrades. Safety is leaps and bounds ahead of what it was. I can't understand why anyone wouldn't want to have side airbags, and I can't understand why a manufacturer wouldn't make them standard.
I also know the current CR-V is rated as an ULEV, meaning it's better for our environment. In fact, it takes 10 current model CR-Vs to make as much pollution as one of the old model CR-Vs, which, incidentally, was cleaner than the Escape.
Furthermore, the current CR-V has more power AND better fuel economy than the older generation. With Ford, you have to pick one or the other. Better fuel economy means Ford owners can suck up more of our earth's resources, thereby taking them from the hands of our children and their children.
Dang, safety, the environment, preserving resources (and relying less on foreign oil), Honda hasn't made ANY advances. Too bad they can't be more like Ford. Wait a minute, there I go being sarcastic again.
:confuse:
And here I thought Honda was just out to make a profit like all other corporations. Thanks for the enlightenment! :P
long term solution? the escape is still basically the same vehicle since it was introduced. it still works, for what it is, an entry level suv. after several years of changes, maybe the crv can outperform the escape 0-60, or whatever.
the escape v6 is not a cheap solution. it is one that works and continues to work for the buyers. it took years for honda to catch up. the I-4 maxed out, so they had to put in a 5 speed transmission. good, they keep trying.
the escape and the mariner are still selling well, and don't forget about the maverick.
I would like to get what you are smoking, it obviously alters your reality.
K24 maxed out??? Let's see, K24 in the CR-V is the lowest efficiency engine in the K-series. Acura TSX has the same engine with 200 hp, and who knows, if Honda squeeses 200 hp out of 2.0 liter and 240 hp out of 2.2 liter, maybe the 2.4 liter in the CR-V is not so maxed out??
The Duratec V6 is the band aid that Ford uses to get by. None of the car with Duratec V6 approach 30 mpg economy (Not even small Contour) that Honda is getting with K24, K20, and the 3.5 Liter V6. Any company that thinks that people will be willing to continue dumping their hard earned money into filling up their cars, is SHORT SIGHTED!!!
5 speed transmission in the Cr-V was just the icing on the cake. It gave Auto CR-V same fuel economy as the manual, and is a much better approach to incentives than REBATES. Because it does not hurt the current owners' resale values.
I think you got it backwards as far who catching up to who. Honda had the CR-V in 1996 in Japan, 1997 in the US, it took Ford 5 years to bring out the 2001 Escape. So, who is catching up to who? If Ford is so great at developing vehicles, why didn't they have Escape in 1995?
Me driving the same way, I get 30 mpg in the CR-V, 19 in the Escape. So, what is the big hype about the Escape? It is slower, and uses more gas, sounsd like a winner, NOT
How did I miss this? Please, dear Scape2, allow me a rebuttal...
Here we go again. Trying and trying to make the [Duratec Fusion] be as powerful as the [VTEC V6] in the [Accord]. Keep on dreaming. When anyone enters these vehicles they will feel the difference, its there. Plus, anyone who knows and usese the torque will feel the differnce. To say [Honda] had to use a [VTEC V6] to compete with the [Duratec] in the [Fusion] just makes me laugh at how ignorant a statement this is. FAct is the [Accord] rides with more confidence, fact is the [Accord] can move its weight around with more confidence.
And don't get me started on the 33 hp difference...
When you originally posted that little gem, I wanted to ask if your source for that information is the guy who run the NHTSA rollover tests. You know, the test where the Escape instills tremendous confidence by tipping up on two wheels trying to make a J-turn. Did you ask them?
I think what he means is that the K24 is maxxed out so long as no changes are made to the design or hardware. If Honda were to make improvements to the engine (like when Ford improved the Escape's engine by decreasing its output), that wouldn't count.
Ya know, technically, he's right.