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Comments
Actually, Honda and Isuzu did a little swap. Honda got to rebadge their Rodeo as a Passport, and Isuzu rebadged the Odyssey (1995-1998 Wagon Style van) as the Isuzu Oasis van.
I don't know about owning part of a company. I think it's kind of like they are doing with GM and the Honda 3.5L going into the Vue. What is Honda getting in return? What does Honda WANT from GM? My guess is cash, and not much else.
The Euro Focus/Volvo S40/Mazda3 and Escape/Tribute are the best examples of them working together as of late. They can put out really good products when they work together. Looks like adding Volvo to the mix makes exceptional products though and they should really capitalize on that going forward IMO.
Yeah, I'd agree that Honda is in the VUE deal strictly for the cash. They (Honda) could use a full-size pickup though.
it makes the escape moonroof seem small.
Ok, lets get back to the HP/Torque debate.. The question is where does the Escape sit in its torque range at 3600 rpms when the CRv has maxed out and has nothing more to give? Also, notice the HP max rpms? 100rpms difference here folks. These two go hand in hand.
I don't know who said the CRV weighs more than the Escape, but your wrong. Look right here at Edmunds the CRV weighs about 150lbs more! Also notice how Edmunds con is no V6 for the CRV. Gee, wonder why Toyota put a rocket V6 in its new RAV4? Why does Honda put a V6 in the Accord if the 4cyl is so much more powerful than all these v6's out there?..
Also, why would my engine in my Escape blow up? :confuse: Or is this another Ford inferior remark.. Getting old.. Escpecially since I have over 65,000 trouble free miles on my Escape.. Those who claim Escapes to be unreliable should really get out on the net more and visit other chat rooms/car sites ect..
Everyone should look at Edmunds' www.carspace.com
I saw the C70 at the Pittsburgh auto show, roped off though, and it's a pretty sweet ride. The salesman guarding it popped the trunk for me so I could see how much room the roof took up in there. Well, it takes up the whole trunk save for a decent sized well underneath. The cool thing is that it has a button that pops the folded roof up so you can access that well rendering the roof-filled trunk somewhat useful dare I say.
Damn, I want my convertible out of storage so bad right now
That's the weight for a 4 cyl Escape. You were talking about the V6 when you made the claim earlier.
The base weight for a V6-powered AWD Escape is 3,464 lbs.
The base weight for a 5AT AWD CR-V is 3,428 lbs.
Now when you add equipment to the CR-V, the weight goes up. A loaded SE model will tip the scales at 3,494.
I can assure you, the same is true for the Escape. Add a sunroof, better stereo, air bags, seat heaters, and all that stuff to an Escape and it will gain 70lbs or so. Except that Ford never publishes that information. So everywhere you go, no matter which trim you select, the only weight information available reads 3,464 lbs. Magic beans, perhaps?
But when you do things like look up the hard data from safety tests, you'll find that they weigh each vehicle before they crash it. For example, the 2005 XLT the IIHS used for testing weighed in at 3,580 lbs.
:P
Couple of examples for you. I think the Fusion was originally listed as having 210 HP from it's Duratec30 but when re-tested right before it went on sale it came out as 220 HP. Don't try to tell me the Mustang GT is only making 300 HP either. Dyno testing has shown it's more like 320 but Ford hasn't re-tested it officially.
The Escape's loss of HP a year or two ago was due to the engine being retuned for what I can't remember. It was done before the whole SAE test thing came about, early 2004 for MY05, and Ford openly discussed the slight loss of power. Plus the CD4E transmission in the Escape is a dinosaur and most likely sucks the life out of the engine which, if IIRC from the dyno numbers, leaves you with roughly 160 HP going to the wheels.
However, it IS an issue of marketing, and I can't fathom ANY reason why the Big Three wouldn't exploit this, unless, of course, they have something to lose. As we all know, a LOT of Americans buy cars based upon mileage (thus the ridiculously low real world MPG ratings of domestic gas hogs), and anytime a company ceases to go for the competitive advantage, it makes me certain they don't have one. They leveraged it as much as they could already, which was to point out gains by a very SMALL sample of vehicles.
on the other hand, nobody appreciates being sold horsepower that isn't there.
I appologize baggs if I misread your posts.
We know at least of one who keeps touting that HIS Escape has 40 more HP and 40 more Ft. lbs. and blah blah, blah, but still can't cath up to Honda in 0-60 tests :-)
I appologize baggs if I misread your posts.
No problem. We all do it. You made me work for it though!
However, it IS an issue of marketing, and I can't fathom ANY reason why the Big Three wouldn't exploit this, unless, of course, they have something to lose.
I don't know about that. Ford doesn't really play the HP game right now as it is so I think they're just willing to save a few bucks and leave well enough alone. It's not like you're going to see increases of 50 HP. We're talking like 0-10 max in most cases. Probably not worth the extra cost given current finaces at the big 2.
Would you give the Five Hundred or Escape a second look if they told you they just gained 5 HP for MY06? Didn't think so.
Yes, it would help Isuzu, but there's really be nothing in it for Honda, now that Honda has a much larger line of automobiles than it did in 1995. Too bad it lost the Prelude though.
if anyone does, it's like saying "i'm the best hitter in single A baseball" or "division 3 ncaa basketball".
:confuse: :confuse: :confuse:
I took a look at Edmunds and compared a V6 Escape to a CRV for weight.
And once again, the old I have over 158,000 miles and blah, blah, blah... The fact of the matter is.. I now own two of these vehicls. According to the Honda clan, the Escape/Tribute, anything Ford is supposed to be unreliable right? Heck! my Escape should have only made it about 25,000 miles right? Its old, very old news about Honda's legendary reliability. Get out on the net, visit other rooms. All car brands are now making it to 100,000 miles with very few issues. When consumer find out they don't need to pay the premium Honda price for a quality vehicle.. Honda is going to be in trouble.
Here we go again. What PREMIUM? CR-V is cheaper than Escape in any of the combinations.
The low end trim CR-V LX is cheaper than Escape XL (??).
Mid-trim CR-V EX (with more standard equipment, some of which is not avaialble ont he Escape) is cheaper than Escape XLT.
The upper trim CR-V SE is cheaper than Escape Limited.
So, what PREMIUM are you talking about? Show me the money!! I bolded the key words in each of the statements in case someone missed them, the theme is CR-V is cheaper than Escape
As far as reliability, you have what 60,000 miles on your Escape and you have been heard of thinking of trading it in for another Escape. Why would you do that if it still runs fine, according to you.
Honda engine is half way to being broken in at 60,000 miles.
I took a look at Edmunds and compared a V6 Escape to a CRV for weight.
And once again, the old I have over 158,000 miles and blah, blah, blah... The fact of the matter is.. I now own two of these vehicls. According to the Honda clan, the Escape/Tribute, anything Ford is supposed to be unreliable right? Heck! my Escape should have only made it about 25,000 miles right? Its old, very old news about Honda's legendary reliability. Get out on the net, visit other rooms. All car brands are now making it to 100,000 miles with very few issues. When consumer find out they don't need to pay the premium Honda price for a quality vehicle.. Honda is going to be in trouble.
Who are these people claiming only 25,000 miles for a Ford?
yes, I'm the one who spouted off about 158,000 miles on my car blah blah blah. My point was, like you say, any car maintained properly could make it to 100,000 miles, and that spouting off about 65,000 trouble free miles doesn't do much for your case.
I'm HONESTLY not trying to knock you, but put yourself in my shoes. If I say "my Honda has 60,000 miles on it and hasn't had a problem!", does that speak of a high-quality automobile? No, any car from Acura to Volvo can do this. Many cars nowadays go to 150,000+ miles without many (sometimes any) repairs.
And, let's move past the gearing. I debated with ya about these two cars back in August, and STILL don't remember anything about gearing. YOU'VE been the only one talking about it since the forum opened back up.
But, I digress, and will check on the forum tomorrow. Nice night, all!
Nah, that was me. When Scape opened this thread, he couldn't understand how Honda got the 5MT CR-V to sprint to 60 mph as fast as his Escape (with 40 more horsepower and 40 more ft-lbs of torque, dontcha know). The short answer to this thing he could not (cannot) comprehend is gearing.
Now he treats the subject like it's magic pixie dust rather than a common engineering reality.
Numbers have been posted numerous times to show how a CR-V will cost less than a comparitavely equipped Escape (when you can equip them the same).
It doesn't matter. An ostrich doesn't change it's feathers.
But you can pluck the feathers :-)
But you can pluck the feathers
Or buy a flamingo (RAV4, which is better than these two in most respects) instead.
1) The CR-V is lighter. A basic internet search can tell you that. Or, better yet, get a pamphlet from the dealership. At the very least, Honda lists the weights of all the different CR-Vs. The 3494 lb weight being bantied about, as varmint has pointed out, is for the SE, which is the heaviest CR-V.
2) The CR-V is as fast or faster to 60 mph. Various publications have listed the 0-60 times, and a simple internet search would enough to suffice.
3) The CR-V is as cheap or cheaper when comparably equipped. Again, the internet is our friend, if you get out there and look around.
4) The CR-V is safer. Go to the government safety site.
5) The CR-V is more reliable and has higher resale value. See Edmunds very own TCO, as well as the various awards the CR-V has won. Also, go do a search and compare comparably equipped CR-V and Escape models, and you will see the CR-V has higher resale, even when having many thousands more miles.
6) Anecdotal evidence is worthless. I could really care less what one's co-workers or friends "think". That's not evidence.
Basically, the information is out there and has been given in this very thread literally dozens of times. It doesn't stop people from having the ability to bring them up over and over, if for no other reason then to keep the discussion off point.
At this point, I'm more interested in talking about the upcoming CR-V, and why Ford has chosen to sit through two iterations of the CR-V (and the RAV4) and do nothing. Obviously, other people have other points of interest, but if nothing else, I'd like the discussion to move forward rather than to have the forum spammed, as it is very informative at times.
I could really care less what one's co-workers or friends "think". That's not evidence.
Ordinarily, mention of what one's coworkers and friends have to say on an issue is a matter of friendly conversation. This isn't a court of law or a scientific journal so friendly conversation relevant to the topic is neither precluded nor discouraged. Again, one may scroll past banter one doesn't care to participate in.
It would suffice for one simply to raise relevant issues that one wants to discuss and if others share one's interest they will join in. That's how message boards work.
Now, let's get back to the topic and not make an issue of what one doesn't like about other people's particpation or style in the forum.
tidester, host
Actually, in the car market, what people "think" about a car is priceless. Many people buy vehicles based on the comments of others who have owned the brand or car model. In my own case, I research a lot, but then take my personal preferrence among the vehicles I have selected as possibilities. The final decision is a "gut level" decision.
Also, I should point out that people who lease don't really care about reliability (within reason); a 3 year lease will cover all breakdowns.
I understand that. However, facts are facts. It would be grossly misleading for me to say the CR-V can tow more than the Escape, when, in fact, it can't. That's a fact. What's even worse is to keep repeating it, knowing it isn't fact. It's those very newbies and lurkers that I'm worried about here. People are entitled to the truth. And I agree. It's easy to scroll. That's why it isn't necessary to repeat one 's self over and over again.
I could really care less what one's co-workers or friends "think". That's not evidence.
Ordinarily, mention of what one's coworkers and friends have to say on an issue is a matter of friendly conversation. This isn't a court of law or a scientific journal so friendly conversation relevant to the topic is neither precluded nor discouraged. Again, one may scroll past banter one doesn't care to participate in.
It would suffice for one simply to raise relevant issues that one wants to discuss and if others share one's interest they will join in. That's how message boards work.
Perhaps I should clarify. When I say anecdotal evidence, I mean comments like "my friend thinks the Escape is safer/faster/whatever than the CR-V because they rolled one/raced one/whatever".
I'd also caution people that there are far better places to find information on vehicles, when it comes down to hard numbers and facts, including Edmund's New and Used car portions of the site. Yes, personal testimony certainly has weight, but you have to realize you are dealing with faceless people here (including myself), and sometimes those people have agendas. I guess I see a forum as a way to gather information which isn't easily obtained from a specific source.
Overall, I think you may have misinterpreted my post a bit. Regardless, like you say, it is a form, and I had something to say and I said it, as is my write (pun intended).
2006 ytd sales through february: Escape 26,583, Liberty 22205, Cr-v 19646.
a lot of people are finding reasons to buy a small suv other than the cr-v. the old escape and the liberty are outselling it by a 5-2 margin! :surprise:
Steve, Host
Kind of makes you wonder.. If the CRV is the God almighty superior small CRV then why do they sell almost 8,000 less units?
All those 26,000 people can't be wrong..
Excuses already heard from CRV/Honda followers.
1. Rental fleets - for some reason Honda owners think Ford can only sell to rental fleets and that 75 percent of all Ford sales are to rental fleets.
2. More Ford dealerships.. Not going to work in my city. There are plenty of Honda dealerships to choose from. Heck! I went through a small coastal town and there was a new Honda dealership for maybe a town of 10,000! 15,000 if you include other small cities around the area..Face it there are Honda dealerships in every metro area in the U.S. I would bet anyone in the U.S. that was interested in test driving a Honda product could with no problems..
By the way..Ford is not sitting idle with the Escape. The new 07 is getting a refreshed look, more standard options, more safety features. Still up in the air about a new v6, 3.5.. I don't think this will happen until 08 if at all..
1) The number of Honda dealerships to Ford dealerships. The closest Honda dealership to me is over 100 miles away. The closest Ford dealership is about 2 miles. There are at least 10 or 12 Ford dealerships that are closer than the Honda dealership I went with. When you are going to service your vehicle, most people don't want to have to drive 100 miles to do that.
2) Fleet sales. Honda won't stoop to selling fleet vehicles because it lowers the resale of Honda vehicles and there isn't much money in it. Ford has used it for decades to artificially inflate their numbers, a la the Taurus. It's easy to tout your numbers when you convienently don't include the fact you are practically giving your vehicles away (and having to post profit-killing "Employee Discount" sales...).
3) Patriotism/Racism. Some people feel they are being patriotic by buying a domestic, while others just won't buy an Asian car. It's a free country, so there really is no response to these reasons.
Current 2006 Escape customer rebate = $2000
26583 - 19646 = 6937
6937 x $2000 = $13,874,000
Sure Ford sold more units but look at what it cost them to do so, and as pointed out the fleet sales make things even worse.
Honda is pretty good at keeping new models a secret until a week or so before the release. But the details keep seeping out, like possibility of a 60 HP boost for the current 4 cylinder engine, and even a diesel for 2008. What would Scape do then? Right now Honda's i-cTDI makes about 250 ft. lbs of torque from a 2.2 liter 4 cylinder diesel.
Like others said, still no rebate on the CR-V. Total Honda sales are up by 9% compare to last year. Can Ford say the same?
"In Pipas's view, the relative growth of fleet sales isn't the important part. Rather, Detroit's conventional retail sales to individuals have shrunk, leaving fleet sales as a bigger proportion of Ford's total than in the past. On average, fleet sales have been running at about 25 percent of total sales; in January they surged closer to 40 percent for Ford and GM.
Not only do fleet sales generate less gross profit than retail sales to individuals -- and Detroit automakers won't say how much less -- they may damage the image of models favored by the fleets, as well as their resale value."
Pretty much says it all.
When the CR-V was released in 2002, it outsold the Escape by a narrow margin. The following year, Ford began using rebates to sell the Escape. For a while it was only $500. But it soon rose to $1,500 and has been at $2,000 or more ever since. Only after they started these incentives did Ford regain the sales lead.
As for dealerships, Ford has well over 4,000 retailers. Honda has something like 1,200 now. If you have a Honda dealer near you, you probably have 3 Ford shops fighting for your business. If you think that's not an advantage look at how well the Mariner and Tribute have been selling. They are the same basic truck, with the same incentives, they just don't have the same number of dealers (or fleet sales).
If you have any doubts, why is Ford's Chairman in their commercials all the time, doing a Lee Iacocca? They're in trouble, and fleet sales and rebates aren't going to cover for an inferior product. Buyers are just too smart for that as a whole, thanks to the internet.
honda sells say 300k accords. as far as i can tell, people buy them at the same place as a Cr-v.
BTW, it's good to agree sometimes!
Also, Ford always likes to tout it has the #1 selling truck, which is true, unless you combine the sales of the Chevy and GMC full-size trucks. On the otherhand, some posters have tried to combine Mariner, Tribute and Escape sales. Can't have it both ways.
I tend to agree with Ford; you go with one brand. I can't think of any industry which combines product lines to tout overall sales. Furthermore, if you try to combine brands, you aren't taking into account the extra advertising, marketing, sales, accounting, design, etc., that it takes to push a vehicle out under another name. That means simply adding sales isn't even close to accurate.