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Toyota Tacoma vs. Ford Ranger, Part XII
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Comments
Just like the Toyota owner on edmunds who's transmission blew up.
Bad casting, robot arms that can't torque correctly. Defects all the same. Here's my advice scorpio, just don't buy an FX4. Because you will also get goodies like Air Conditioning, standard ABS, Tilt Steering Wheel w/Speed Control, power everything, fog lights and a clock. I'm glad you found something to harp on the FX4 about, but you must realize it is temporary.
eagle, btw, good post. it obviously went to the jugular. no arguing about what you said. scorpio chooses to believe a defect from ford is worse than a defect from toyota. he still won't comment on his precious company's camry, which already has two recalls. not to mention its getting spanked by the new altima in award winning and performance. oh, the altima doesn't have any recalls either. who builds quality over there? oh yeah, they think they're american made.
And you seem to be under impression that I care about Camry vs. Altima. I don't. If Nissan can built a good Altima, good for them. I still look at the whole picture, and think they don't have everything figured out yet, Frontier is the prime example of it.
I'm not arguying that Toyota doesnt have defects. The tranny is a perfectly good example. HOWEVER, and I can't stress it enough (either you don't understand the difference, or choose to ignore it), the tranny defect is NOT the same as axle defect in question. Tranny problem is a manufacturing defect, aka: part was not built according to the specifications.
FX4s problem with lockers seems to be a design defect: part was built according to specifications, but specs were wrong in the first place.
Manufacturing defects happen all the time with everybody. Heck, my Tacoma had one: the plastic rail by the drivers door that covers up the end of carpet was somehow loose at one point. I took it out, and turns out that the "rabbit ears" plug that they use didnt set in properly. THats a manufacturing defect. So I put it in properly, and now everything is solid.
Design defects are much more dangerous because they affect a much bigger number of vehicles.
FX4 stopped sales and demo of 804 Rangers, out of which 200+ were already sold. And why? We can blame Torsen for maybe supplying defective parts (all 800 of them?). We can blame Ford engineers for not designing the rear axle properly. Just a question of who's to blame. But Ford gets to pick up the bill for this. THats what design defects can do to you: recalling the whole production.
For the most part, all the engine recalls are design problems.
Scorpio, no it is not just you. I see it too. The others are totally ignoring this amazingly significant and relevant point that you are making. No one will refute it. What else is new? I am not harping on the issue I said I would leave alone, but - I mean - come on. Until 800 trannies blow up cuz Toyota didn't design them to stand up to enough power, I see only one side to this argument that makes decent sense.
As for the Altima, I think they are great. One funny thing happened the other day, though. My dad is looking for a new car for my mom. He loved the Altimas, I was really pushing the Maximas, and he was also looking at the Camrys, too. After driving around to the different lots and finding that you could have a loaded Maxima for the same price as a basic v6 Camry, I was like - man, I guess you should really go with the Nissan, huh, dad. He said, "Actually so many people tell me that the Camry is such a better made car - I'll prolly get one of those." I was totally blown away. This is a man who used to not turn his head at a foreign car, now hes paying signigicantly more for a Toyota than he would for a much more endowed Nissan -- and all b/c Toyotas are so much better made. And he knew that Nissan is no slouch with quality either. Not to say that my dad's opinion means anything at all, but I was totally surprised. The news is spreading guys. LOL.
By the way, I told him I had heard about 2 recalls on the new Camrys (tbunder's statement). I would like to hear some elaboration on it so that I can help him some more. Thanx!
sad- please send this info. on to your dad. it seems that he is very mis-informed on his camry information. unless you're superman driving one of these "BOMBS", you may just need plastic surgery.
http://www.nhtsa.com/ - do a search on 2002 camry recalls. there are two. here's a site that talks about the first one.
http://www.classactionamerica.com/recalls/displayRecall.asp?recallId=2250
and this should entice him as well:
http://www.autonews.com/files/ctofyear2002.htm
looks like the only news spreading around here is the facts. and this time they're not in toyota's favor.
Lets hope FX4 doesnt develop anymore problems. Then we'll see.
scorpio- i doubt the FX4 develops any more problems. after all, its really just an off-road ranger, 'cept for that torsen. and imo, the ranger is the best ford vehicle built.
Total number of recalls
ford=61
toyota=6
Here are the recalls for ford
model = #number of recalls
E150=1
E350=1
ECONOLINE=1
ESCAPE=5
EXCURSION=3
EXPEDITION=4
EXPLORER=1
EXPLORER SPORT=1
EXPLORER SPORT TRAC=1
F SUPER DUTY=1
F150=6
F250=3
F350=4
F450=4
F550=3
F650=2
RANGER=2
WINDSTAR=6
CROWN VICTORIA=3
FOCUS=2
MUSTANG=1
TAURUS=6
Now for toyota
model = #number of recalls AVALON=1
CAMRY=2
PRIUS=1
HIGHLANDER=1
SIENNA=1
this was from http://www.nhtsa.com/
I didn't think this would take me that long to count the recalls but when I started I had to finish.
Now not to give Toyota all the credit if you want to compare for 2002. Ford is killing Toyota with Ford having less recalls than Toyota. For the drum roll
FORD has one recall so far, and Toyota has two.
If I was a betting man I would bet that Ford will have more recalls than Toyota at the end of 2002.
I don't know if thats a joke about Camrys being hand-built, but Isuzu VehiCROSS (I've had my eye on it since it came out last year, but didnt want it with auto tranny, the only one they had) is hand-built, and seems to be running without any recalls in the first year. Not bad for a totally new SUV, just from the drawing board.
Just got back from from a business trip and had to do a few presentations. YECH!!! Good to see tbundy's still around!
Scorpio's words: "I guess the mass production results in lower standards and lower quality control."
Just depends on who's doing the mass production. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but the Corolla is the most mass-produced vehicle in the world, and the Camry has been America's #1 selling car for 4 or 5 years now, and they're not recall-ridden.
I find it amusing Ford has so many problems, yet Lincoln (a subsidary of Ford) is squeaky clean in comparison. Just goes to show Ford is capable but not always willing to build quality. And why should they be? There will always be the gullible tbunders of the world ready to surrender their money to Ford and their "Quality is job #1" slogan.
With so many people buying Ford, why should they spend extra money on doing things "more right" which would jack the price up? Remember the flaming ball of fire Pinto?
I just got back from the Den again today (yes, tbunder, I did go out wheeling. I'll post you a damn picture since you don't believe me), had major body damage to one of the trucks. One of the members' SAS'ed flatbed 1999 Taco rolled over completely in a big hole. Took 2 Tacos and a Unimog to winch it out.
One of these days I'm going to have to go to the "Den" and see what it's all about. But I don't think I'm going to be as hard on my truck as some of those guys appear to be.
Keep me posted when you guys plan to have your next get together. With a little notice, I might be able to get up there.
kip
BTW compare quality to a report card.95%,99% it's an "A" alright?
But to each his own. I personally think vehicles are a waste of money, expecially trading them in every year or so and having perpetual car payments on something that is never owned.
Somehow I get a feeling to me that not many people want used Fords, GMs or Chevys, 4-5 year old ones. I have hard time finding a used Tacoma at the dealer lot, but there's always plenty of Fords sitting there, or somewhere on the side of a road with a "4 Sale" sign. Whats the resale value of a 1996 Ford Ranger these days (given the price for it today)?
Personally, it would be worth the trouble for me. Think about it. Last thing I want happening is having to take my brand new truck in for axle replacement (FX4) after 1 week of owning it.
From www.autosite.com market report sales volume.
Truck December 2001 YTD
F-150 84,278 911567
Tundra 9,244 100445
tacoma 12,388 161983
ranger 15972 272460
So ford sells almost as many F Series trucks as toyota sells in a year in one month. Rangers sell 110,000 more per year, increase of 68%.
Not denying they make a great truck, my 92 xcab with 167,000 miles runs better than any s-10 with 75,000 I've seen and better than a jeep with 40,000, but stop being so freaking cocky on pricing. Sick of all these local dealers telling me to piss off because they know they can sell to someone else for just what they want. Anyone else had similar experiences? Almost making me want to buy Ford because they will work for my business.
kip
I said that Ranger and Toyota are generally made for lower end of middle class. Whereas Lincoln and Lexus are made for upper end.
And overall.....you know, Ranger just got the new engine that finally gave it an edge over Tacoma. So now Ranger owners are celebrating....they have a reason todo so, for 5 years Tacoma beat them with the same engine.
It's not just 100K+ stories. With the publicity and track record that Ford has, they would have to try real hard to sell one to me. And I'm saying that because I havent owned one yet. (On the other hand, I've owned a Chevy, and will not buy from them again). Somehow having a Toyota gives more peace of mind. Imagine if I bought an FX4. It would have had to be a 207hp with manual tranny (because thats what I drive now), and I would either have snapped the axle at the light somewhere (the way I drive), or would have had to take it in for a recall within 1 week of purchase. How's that for a confidence builder?
kip
BTW can't wait till there's aftermarket pistons for my GMC 8.1
I'm not leaving my Taco in stock form for long. I have some small mods, like magnaflow muffler, amsoil air/oil filter with synth. oil, deckplate (although I don't usually use it), hella lights. Small things. I still have a list of things to get like line-x/rhino or herculiner, some form of hard top, rocksliders, and ultimately, suspension lift with body lift. The only thing is that my Taco is also my daily driver, so I don't want to raise it up too much. I still like to ride down the freeway at 85-90mph without having handling problems. Oh yeah, and I'm thinking about getting one of those old caddy air compressors (electrical ones).
Here's
the site. So Toyota will also take care of its customers (heh, yeah, right. With a lot of pressure from the government). This was a problem in the making for the last 6 years, we'll see what happens.
So you see, tbunder, we can also admit faults in our vehicles.
This isn't the first story like this I've heard.
So scorpio, would you classify that as a design defect, or a manufacturing one?
But I guess it really boils down to the dealership wanting to deal with it or not.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html
/direct/view/.eea225d
Sorry the Liberty can't even start to compare with any of the CJ series Jeeps.!
No V8, No gear driven transfercase.................way to long of a wheelbase.
My 73 CJ5 was purchased new by my father in 73 and was given to me some years back.
When your Liberty is 30 years old come then you can start making claims!
Any of the 4x4's made today will work for Moderate fourwheeling. You could say make it to the Dusy/Eirshim Trailhead, but with out major mods you'd never get past the gaurdian let alone up chicken rock and through the entire route. The Wrangler Rubicon is the closest box stock, but you'd need a 4.5" lift and 33" tires.
I don't believe Toyota or Nissan are God's gifts to automobiles, I just feel, along with the majority of others that they are a notch above any Ford, Dodge, Chevy, etc, etc.... Does it matter what I think, absolutely not, only to me.
So, tbunder you can preach your dogma all you want, it is falling on deaf ears. By the way my father-in law just bought a 2002 4x4 double cab (non-TRD). Why? Because he drove mine! All his life he drove nothing but domestic compacts. I think he thought it was time for some security with his purchase:)
However, my friend owns a 67 F-100 Ranger. Yeah, it's basically a early F-150, and has some rust in the floor board. However when you pull into the dragstrip with your 1967 Mustang being trailered by a 1967 Ranger, there's just a special glow you feel as all the eyes turn.
Heck I could keep my 1993, and run it to 200,000+ miles if I want. And when the engine or transmission pukes, I can drop in a 302 fairly easily. You could say parts are cheap when you vehicle is the best seller for the past 15 years. The options are open with the Ranger.
However I do have plans on retiring my ole reliable for something new in 2003. Just have to see what's new and available then, but the Ranger will always be my first pick. The new Edges look so nice, but I'm gonna have to wait for the possible v8.
I know 3 people with 80's rangers with more than 150k.My 95 Taco is the highest milage one I know of at 105,521 mi.
kip