Honda Element

s852 · January 2003

Even that Car & Driver article says the drivers seat is too low in the Element.
Honda needs to get a height adjuster for the drivers seat by 2004.

ssender1 · January 2003

The height of the driver's seat of my EX 4WD is adjustable. There is a round knob on the left side of the seat which when rotated adjusts the seat height an inch or two. At 6'1" I find the seat height adequate.

s852 · January 2003

Apparently that knob only changes the angle of the seat bottom so you can point it upwards or downwards, but does not actually raise the seat higher (not that raising the seat just one inch would make much difference anyway).

diploid · January 2003

Was waiting for an oil change and I checked out a DX Element in the show room. Was very disappointed by the exterior build quality - the plastic bumper did not align well with the plastic body cladding - there was approximately 1.5cm of space in the joints where the plastics connect. The headlights had roughly 1cm of space between them and the plastic housing. The same discrepancies were found wherever there was plastic connecting to another plastic panel (e.g. the plastic running the top of the vehicle).

The CR-V parked next to it, however, was flawless - everything was assembled tightly.

Oddly enough, the wheel covers of the DX had the black center with silver surround, which I liked a lot better than the alloy covers. Didn't read what was added to it, but this DX had a retail value of 20K.

Sat inside and the front seats do feel low. This DX didn't have a CD player, so that area was covered up by a flimsy looking rectangular piece of plastic. The chunky surrounds for the gauges reminded me of my RAV4, which is to say I didn't like them. Sitting position aside, the ergonomics were great - everything felt "natural." Don't know how to really explain it, but everything just seemed to be placed where you would intuitively expect them to be, especially the shifter. I felt out of place when I dropped back into my Civic after the oil change.

ssender1 · January 2003

I swear the knob adjusts the seat height and not just the angle of the seat bottom.

As to diploid's post, sounds like the DX model you saw was a victim of dealer gouging (probably a lot of over priced dealer installed accessories). We paid $20,700 + delivery (which I think came to a total of $21,3xx) for a "fully loaded" EX 4WD automatic and then added about $800 worth of accessories purchased on line for a fraction of the dealer cost and installed them myself.

The panel fit on our E is very good with little discrepancy in gaps (and I must note that we have an '01 Volvo S80 and if you want to see poor panel fit....) I have been hesitant to say this, but since there have been so many recent posts re: low grade/soft plastic, my response is what can one expect from a car in the $16 to $21k range - Honda obviously could not put highest grade/most durable materials or the E would cost thousands more.

bowke28 · January 2003

the seat heaight adjustment DOES adjust the seat. i'm only 5'4", and its a god-send in the E. as far as the $20k tag on the dx, if its a 4wd auto, its already $18760, so if you just add air, thats another $1500-$2000. math works out fine.

gee35coupe · January 2003

Just for the quirkyness of the thing. It just look neat. I hope it's a raging success so there'll be a lot of used ones around in a few years.

ateixeira · January 2003

Jackson Racing had a supercharger kit for the 2.0l CR-V, but it ran $3500 or so, not $2 grand. That's not including installation, so figure on at least $4 grand for a quality install.

If they do one for the 2.4l, it'll likely be for the Accord, since that's where the volume is. It might then be adapted to the CR-V and Element.

But remember, the pistons aren't forged, i.e. the engine internals are not engineered for forced induction and it might not be reliable. Plus, a Jackson Racing S/C on a Focus tested by one car mag took almost nothing off its 0-60 time, maybe a couple of tenths IIRC.

-juice

inmyelement · January 2003

Don't know what you other guys are smoking but its got a seat height adjuster. Lovin' it!

vadp · January 2003

Plus, a Jackson Racing S/C on a Focus tested by one car mag took almost nothing off its 0-60 time, maybe a couple of tenths IIRC.
That's true, but I think that fenomenon has been solved a long time ago.
And yes, you can't take advantage of the supercharger full potential unless you make changes to the fuel management and internals. It's not easy and far from being cheap.
And it will also require a switch to a high octane fuel grade.

ateixeira · January 2003

If you want a cheap S/C installation, get a Miata. Jackson makes those kits for less and they go on sale every once in a while, so you can get one for a lot less. They're also easy to work on, so you might even be able to handle doing it yourself.

I don't think a new Element, still under warranty, is as good a candidate for a supercharger mod. YMMV.

-juice

s852 · January 2003

"Lows: Some chintzy materials (shower-stall plastic flooring, tinny doors), other drivers smirk at you, commercial-van feeling eliminates it as prom-night vehicle, driver seat too low, cartoonish styling."

This is referring to the EX model, so it must mean that the seat remained low even after raising it to the highest possible level.
It could not be possible that a professional writer didn't notice the height adjustment knob.
I have seen other magazine articles where the writer made a point to mention the low seat height.

bowke28 · January 2003

is also a little weird, with the extremely high headliner, and the window so far out in front of you. at 5'4" i see out at the same angle as every other car ive ever driven. it just FEELS lower.

anonymousposts · January 2003

Considering the E didn't debut until mid-December, it's first month sales of 9xx aren't too shabby. However, it will have to pick up for Honda to meet their 50,000 unit goal.

mrb95 · January 2003

Hi, I have been looking for a car for some time now, and the Honda Element recently intrigued me. I took it for a test drive and loved it more than I had before, and decided that it would be the perfect car for me. I am looking into purchasing a Sunset Orange 2WD EX, and am wondering when you think this vehicle will become mainstream, in other words when will I be able to negotiate a price lower than the MSRP? Also, is there no option for the sunroof on the 2WD, if so thats pretty messed up, I'm not going to pay 2 grand more just for the sunroof(thats the only reason I would get the 4WD)

vmaturo · January 2003

I'm only 5'8" and while driving the EX, I definately did want to be able to raise the seat higher. Especially since there was so much room above my head.

The "concept" and "utility" are awsome. And of course it's nice to drive something " unique ".

This really is the perfect vehicle for me. Especially since I'm a cycling fanatic. I keep thinking about taking a trip with it. Flip the seats up, my bike on one side and me sleeping on the other side.

As badly as I want one, I'm going to try to hold off to give Honda time to address some issues.

If my car gave me any reason to get rid of it now, then I would be driving the Element. ( of course if I didn't get gouged by the dealer. I'm not paying over sticker for ANY car. In fact I'm not sure I would even pay sticker).

So I'll continue to look at the brochure and ponder all the things I might do with the Element.

s852 · January 2003

On May 19th, they officially go mainstream.

No. Whenever you can go to to multiple Honda dealers within a reasonable driving distance and see at least one unsold Element at more than one dealership equipped in a way you would be willing to accept.
How long that will take will depend on how popular it is in your area.

mrb95 · January 2003

Where did you get the date May 19th, and what does officially mainstream mean?

diploid · January 2003

The Element I saw was the only one in the dealership. The same appears to be true for the other Honda dealerships I pass by - I only see one parked in the showroom and none on the lots.

There is a lot I like about the Element - but the height of the front seats has got to be remedied. I especially noticed how low they were because I entered through the rear doors, where I tried the rear seats first and then climbed my way to the front seat (and I barely had to duck - this would be one cool "dressing room" for the beach).

ropedart · January 2003

according to Jackson Racing. I suppose its just easier to buy the TSX engine and put it in or even the Accord V6.

Hey guys do the math! The front seat is low to make an even level bed with the rear seats. Any higher and it gets lumpy. The same with the rear legroom. It comes from the necessity for the front seatback to fill in the space to rear seat cushion to make a bed. A seatback is quite long.

bowke28 · January 2003

the seat is put where it is for another reason as well...center of gravity. the higher you sit, the worse it corners. this is a totally different approach toward a vehicle, and that space above (or inside) your head is just something you'll have to get used to. if you cant, then its probably not the car for you.

p.s. just kidding about the 'inside' thing

ateixeira · January 2003

9xx sales? That's less than I expected. Maybe they didn't have enough supply at dealerships. Baja had a really slow first month, too, but sales only picked up about 50% in the 2nd month. Honda needs to do better.

-juice

s852 · January 2003

It is fine to have extra space above your head, but that's not the problem. The problem is that you do not have the choice to sit high enough to have as good a view of the road and the front of the vehicle as you would if the seats were adjustable so the highest position was a couple inches higher than the max height position is now.
Not everyone wants to sit high, so that's why the seats should be more adjustable. You should be able to set the seat as high or low as is comfortable for you.
Having a driver's seat that has another few inches of travel in the height adjustment will not change the handling of the vehicle.
If the seat is more adjustable it does not prevent you from sitting low if you have that desire and does not prevent you from adjusting it to make a semi-flat bed.

tpat3 · January 2003

How many is that? 900? Sorry. If so, that ain't too many.

nuttyprof · January 2003

no option for 3 rd row seats (or even seating for more than 4!) in such a "unique and versatile vehicle"? i think Honda have made a major blunder here with its 'versatile' marketing claim. I was considering the element until I found it only had 4 seats.
Come on Honda - think!!!

s852 · January 2003

I think someone posted that they made it a four seater because it was much easier to design the fold away seats that way, plus the engine will have enough trouble with a load of 4 passengers and cargo, much less 5 or 6.

s852 · January 2003

They didn't really review it on the show, but they used it as a prop to carry a large plasma display to a tailgate party.
They commented that it drove like a minivan.
The driver also said something like:

"I have no idea how fast I'm driving because the steering wheel is blocking the speedometer."

The show may repeat this week on Tech TV.

gee35coupe · January 2003

Is the problem that has been mentioned before. I have never seen a dealership with more than one Element. They must really be ramping production slowly. They are very rare.

Anakin · January 2003

This vehicle is marketed toward 20-something outdoors types, not "I need a third row seat" family types.

You want more seating, buy a CR-V or a Pilot.

Where would you put a 3rd row seat in an element, anyway. Have you seen the cargo area?

ateixeira · January 2003

With the low payload limit, there is no way it could handle 3 rows of seats and/or 6/7 people. Not without beefing up the payload substantially first.

-juice

diploid · January 2003

"Hey guys do the math! The front seat is low to make an even level bed with the rear seats. Any higher and it gets lumpy."

We know - that's why we're requesting a seat height adjuster...so you can adjust the seat to sit comfortably and re-adjust it to fold flat.

bowke- And just how much will the center of gravity change by adjusting the seat up a couple of inches?
(tidester - don't answer it for him).

tidester · January 2003

My lips are sealed!

tidester, host

ssender1 · January 2003

Putting a pillow on the seat may add several inches of height for those who will refrain from purchasing the Element because they think the seat height (adjusted to its highest position) is too low.

Also, I question the stat that only 900 have been sold (and the implication that this is some indication that the Element will become another Aztec). While it may be "technically" true that only 900 have been sold, I believe this is because dealers were allotted only one or two to serve as demos to take orders from (and, as was the case with us, some dealers may be willing to sell one of those and some dealers might have a couple extra due to incentives from Honda), I think you have to adjust that figure substantially upward by taking into account the number of orders placed. We were told that, as of late December, 2002, the build date for orders was, at the earliest, late Jan '03. So is the "sale" date the date the car was delivered or the date the order was placed? A friend who owns a Honda dealership has confirmed that he has taken deposits/orders on ALL of his first allotment to (he hopes) be delivered in early Feb. '03.

Honda/Acura marketing personnel are - in my non-marketing background opinion - very savvy when it comes to knowing the law of supply & demand. I cannot recall ever seeing Honda/Acura offer anything resembling the rebates and fire sale offers other manufacturers are/have promoted (i. e., buy a Mitsubishi with NO PAYMENT for the first year - except of course, on our latest, most popular model(s)...)

Finally, the Superbowl half-time show (with Saturday Night Live actors as hosts) is being sponsored by, you guessed it, the HONDA ELEMENT - should be some good commercials.

gee35coupe · January 2003

"I cannot recall ever seeing Honda/Acura offer anything resembling the rebates and fire sale offers"

Maybe not as severe as Mitsubishi's but the 02 Civic Si ain't sellin' worth a flip.

anonymousposts · January 2003

900 isn't too bad considering the E didn't hit the dealer lots til mid-December. Then you gotta figure that the dealer wouldn't have the exact color/tranny/trim level that people were looking for and some dealers still want MSRP, and in some rare cases they want over MSRP.

thorsett · January 2003

According to a news story on carpages.co.uk, Tom Elliot (Exec VP for American Honda Moter) announced at the Detroit show that 1000 Elements were sold in the first week of sales, right on pace for 50000 per year. I think the poster that started the "first month" rumor forgot that sales did not begin until late in December, and gave the December numbers as a full month of sales.

tomguiness · January 2003

Can anyone tell me where the Section on Dealer invoice prices went on this site, I used it a couple of years ago. I'm looking into buying an element and would like some ammo before I sit down with some smart-a*sed sales guy.
(it had the price the dealer paid & then it had the consumer price too.)
Tankyoo.

stever · January 2003

For some reason we still don't have invoice pricing for the Element posted yet. Our TMV is a bit over MSRP so that tells me that demand is high and your out the door price isn't going to be that close to invoice anyway.

Our pricing info is under the New Cars link - just drill down to the Element.

Steve, Host

s852 · January 2003

If the seat is too low, people who don't like it are just not going to buy it. A pillow is a ridiculous idea. Honda could correct this problem pretty easily. It is not like it is something that will take years of development, add hundreds of dollars in cost to each vehicle or is not physically possible to do. This is not going to be fixed for 2003, maybe 2004 models or later might have a different seat.
There is a height adjuster there already, just give it a little more useful adjustment.
If there was no problem, it wouldn't be mentioned in more than one magazine review and by multiple posters in multiple forums.

ropedart · January 2003

We talked about this about 1000 posts back. The seat hardware comes from the CRV parts bin. I think its almost the same seat with same mechanisms. Different upholstery of course. The Element was stuck with it. If it gets a new seat lets make it so it can also turn around and face the rear seats for some dorm room conversation.
I think the field of view is impacted by the square hood that goes out but not down. Even tall people report they cannot see the front end either. The seats are not low dude the dash is high:)

rlei · January 2003

Turning the front seats backward, I love that idea. With a hidden table in between then you can have a picnic in a snow storm up north where your element can take you to (or a desert, a swamp.... where you normally don't go for a picnic).

diploid · January 2003

Turning the front seats backwards - that was in the original Model X concept! I was disappointed to see that it did not make production. I guess they couldn't make the seat fold flat if they had done that.

magnetophone · January 2003

I visited the local Honda dealer, and two other people were there just to look at the Element like me. They said that a lot of them had already been bought up. I don't think this is an Aztek - the Element has such a neat propotionate look to it.

gee35coupe · January 2003

For some reason that appeals to me. But then again I like the BBX too.

ateixeira · January 2003

I believe the bit about dealers keeping one demo for sampling. Ourisman Honda had a Pilot that was very clearly labeled "not for sale"; it's for test drives only. In fact it still belongs to Honda, not the dealership.

I think it's a great idea for models that are in demand.

Any how, Honda has about 1000 dealers, so if they sent one to each dealer as a demo, that essentially doubles that 900 figure as far as production goes. I'm not sure if they track orders.

January and February sales will be far more telling.

-juice

bowke28 · January 2003

sales only count when the vehicle is paid for...at delivery. also, dealers only got a maximum of 3 elements in the 1st shipment. the smaller dealers got only 1. we sold our extra 2 within 3 days, and have every element through mid february claimed already.

ssender1 · January 2003

Someone in a post above said that my suggestion to raise the driver's seat by using a pillow is ridiculous. I couldn't agree more. There is NO NEED to increase the seat height (above the height that seat may be manually adjusted)!!!

The issue of seat height, which has been omnipresent on this site for the past several days, is an intangible and highly subjective opinion similar to one's opinion about the best color for the vehicle, whether to choose a manual or auto trans, etc.

I can't explain why any auto magazine article(s) mentioned the seat height (or purported lack thereof) as an issue which should determine whether you should by this car. I can tell you, though, that being a subscriber to 6+ car magazines for the past 20+ years I am constantly amazed at how much the magazines vary in their likes/dislikes of the same vehicle (with, perhaps, the exception of the BMW 3 series which over the past 10 years every auto magazine seems to love).

philly2002 · January 2003

Does anyone know the Payload capacity of the Element? Its important to know the payload capacity, especially in a car with four cylinders.

I drove an EX 4WD yesterday and was very impressed, but I still can't make up my mind on which car to purchase this year-- 2003 Audi A4 Avant 6-speed, 2003 Saab 9-3 Vector or the E.

This decision process is killing me and my Audi salesman is ready to make a deal.

s852 · January 2003

There is a need to increase the adjustment if that's what many people want and it is not technically impractical or cost prohibitive.
Adding a few extra inches of travel is not hurting the people who enjoy sitting low or don't care.
I don't understand why people are trying to defend the limited adjustment. This is the same as if people complain about the A/C being too weak next summer, but you think that if the capacity were increased, it would be too cold and you would rather it stay the same instead of just not setting it to the maximum cooling setting when you use it.
If you don't want to sit any higher than the seat can be adjusted in the 2003s, then just don't raise the seat all the way to the maximum height if any future models can be adjusted a little higher than 2003s.

scname · January 2003

Sounds like driving fun is important to you, definitely get the Audi, I have a CRV02, its nice but nowhere near the fun of driving a car.

Better yet, get that Audi with raise/lower suspension. You get both kinds of fun.

Honda Element

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