Honda Element

varmint · May 2002

Could be that Honda engineered more wheel travel in the CR-V. Though most owners don't take them off-road, Honda had to engineer a little travel to prevent it from embarrassing itself. With less need for wheel travel, the Element may have different suspension and therefore smaller (or oddly shaped) wheel wells.

ateixeira · May 2002

Element may end up lighter and quicker than the CR-V. Plus the price is lower, that can't hurt it. If you add stuff to the CR-V, the price would go up.

3.4l vs. 2.0l and the 4 banger is slightly quicker? Even with automatic? That's a strong argument for the efficiencies of a smaller engine, if you ask me. Unless you tow and really need that torque.

EPA mileage is 18/24, right? That's poor compared to the CR-V, RAV4, and Forester. It's competitive with the Escape but you don't get that car's acceleration.

-juice

civicw · May 2002

Here are the dimensions for the Element - actually they are for the Model X shown at the Tokyo Motor Show in Nov 2001, which I had a chance to visit. Note that this was just 2 months before the pre-production Element was shown in Detroit this year. In my experience over the last several years, dimensions given at the Tokyo Motor Show always match up with the dimensions of the production vehicle, whether it's a Toyota or Honda or...

Length: 160.8", width: 71.2", height: 70.9", and wheelbase: 102". The dimensions were given in mm, which I converted to ".

gm_litogation · May 2002

It doesn't accelerate all that well when saddled with AWD also. The aztek can be had with FWD only if you are looking for more power.

ateixeira · May 2002

Haven't tried an Escape, but Versatrak on the Rendezvous felt too much like FWD for my tastes. I prefer systems that send power to the rear axle all the time (RAV4, Santa Fe, Foretser, Freelander).

I had the same complaint about the CR-V, which even suffers from a bit of torque steer.

-juice

diploid · May 2002

Height is 70.9"? CR-V is 66.2" high (according to Edmunds). From the pictures, I thought the Element would be even taller. I just can't get over the fact that this is basically a CR-V in disguise because it looks so big in the pictures.

moonkat · May 2002

diploid:
My perceptions exactly! When you translate the size of the Element, 71" height, to the proportions in the photos it sure seems a lot bigger than the CR-V.

If the CR-V were 71" tall (other dimensions remaining the same) it would look tipsy.
Come on 106" wheelbase!

moonkat · May 2002

Element show photos with scale elements....people:

http://www.urbanracer.com/features/gallery.asp?pic=nyias02/0012& title=NY+International+Auto+Show+2002

credits to urbanracer.com

In photos with people, in particular the above, the Element looks huge!!!? Looks to be about the same size as the Pilot, which is also photoed at urban racer site!

denise31 · May 2002

Please continue to keep all the members of the 2003 Honda Element Club posted!

varmint · May 2002

Moonkat - Consider that the Element in that pic is tilted forward on the stand. It looks like the rear end of it is higher than the front.

If it is that big, the 2.4 is going to have a tough time moving it.

ropedart · May 2002

I thought it was the monitor or the photo flash but that cladding is a dark blue. Wouldn't Black be a better, more neutral colour? In any case what is the best colour for the Element? I don't care for the silver right now. Would it just take the standard Civic/CRV colours chart?

dralstl · May 2002

Considering the intended demographics for this vehicle, I believe Honda should seriously consider their Hybrid engine (available on the Civic) as an option for the Element as well. 50 mpg would certainly be nice, and the pollution reduction would be very attractive to the "green" orientation of the Y-Generation which will most probably make up the majority of the purchasers.

moonkat · May 2002

dralstl:
Agreed. Until the Element, I thought the CR-V was the likely first Honda SUV to receive the IMA hybrid drivetrain, but the unconventional Element now looks like an even better candidate. Based on demographics of course..;-)

varmint:
In spite of my wishful thinking, Element will probably not be as large as Pilot, though it could quite easily approach Pilot cargo volume of 90 cf. The best I could hope for would be to split the difference between the Pilot and CR-V (72cf) at about 80cf. This wouldn't be difficult, and without increasing mass, or even wheelbase.

It would probably be like the Ody, MDX, Pilot trio; varying capabilities and volume, but with the same/similar drivetrain and mass. All three are about 4400 lbs. I could see where the Element would be like the Ody; much more volume (150cf plus in Ody) but with same drivetrain as the CRV. No change in mass. I know, no increase in power to weight ratio.....until next generation (03) Accord 170 plus hp 2.4L motor is installed...

Another interesting tidbit is that in above referenced C&D June comparo of "crossover" (whatever) vehicles, the Focus ZX5 (?) was listed as having hatch opening width of 40" with overall width of 67" (I think). Encourages my optimism that Element with 70" plus overall width can have tailgate opening of 48".

denise31:
thankyouthankyouthankyouverramush
And please share your opines and perceptions as well.

ropedart · May 2002

Hybrid would be good but I don't think it would get 50 mpg like the Civic. It is too blunt a shape. I agree the engine compartment is going to be huge to take anything. Including Accord V6 or the NSX engine.

varmint · May 2002

Size: Whoa. I didn't mean Pilot-sized, just bigger than the CR-V.

If it were as big as we're kind of hoping, I expect it'll weigh in about 200lbs more than the current CR-V (3,300 - 3,500lbs depending on trim).

Hybrid: I like the idea, but I see one major obstacle. The battery in a hybrid is huge. Like the size of a suitcase. In the Civic, it fits under the rear seat. In the Insight, it takes up quite a bit of space under the cargo floor. For the Element, they would have to change the floor plan.

OTOH, the CR-V does have some space under the cargo floor. Things might need to be moved around a bit to make that area larger or a better shape, but it could be done.

diploid · May 2002

I looked at the pictures of the Element again, and I just caught (for the first time) how much the legroom was going to be in the second row!

Now I can see why there will only be enough space for 2 in the back.

ateixeira · May 2002

I think the 2.4l will be fine. You save weight without all those silly carpets. ;-)

Honda probably lost money with the Insight because it was too low-volume. They'll very likely choose the CR-V rather than the Element, since it has more mainstream appeal.

None of the photos show the deal pedal area, it's one thing the CR-V could improve on.

-juice

cb70 · May 2002

is armrests for the captains chairs in the front of the Element. Option possibly?

ateixeira · May 2002

I would hope so. With a tall layout like that, where you're sort of sitting on a bar stool, you really need those.

CR-V has them on automatics only, so maybe Element will get them.

Then again, this is for young, active males and they don't need no stinkin' arm rests! ;-)

-juice

varmint · May 2002

I'm sure their hands will be busy adjusting the bass on the MP3 player or dope-slapping the guy in the passenger seat.

gm_litogation · May 2002

What is dope-slapping, and the only guys I know that would drive this thing are of the butt slapping buddies variety.

ateixeira · May 2002

Boy do you know how to ruin a good joke!

I looked up the specs on the Aztek, and they're ugly. The specs, I mean. ;-)

C&D lists a summary and compared to the CR-V it costs more, slower to 60, slower in the 1/4, slower trap speed, lower top speed, longer braking distance, less lateral grip, and less fuel efficiency. Worse in every single category listed.

But there's always styling! LOL

-juice

gm_litogation · May 2002

Do you really want to debate that with me??

I'm thinking you don't

Why don't you do that summary with a real test of an 02' not an 01'.

I think you might find your statements to be very false, but hey if you wanna go with that we can. I'm all for a debate!

Especially one I know I'm going to win!

ateixeira · May 2002

Sorry, I didn't realize that test was fake.

I'm sure the painted cladding made it significantly faster than the 10.8 seconds C&D managed. All it needs now is some yellow stickers!

-juice

varmint · May 2002

Dope-slap - A light-hearted thwack to the back of the head. "The GM stylist responsible for the Aztek was dope-slapped (with a medium range ICBM) shortly after its introduction."

gm_litogation · May 2002

I hardly call an ICBM a light hearted thwack.

I would more call the Element's styling a light hearted thwack. Or maybe a dope-slap, ya that's it the Honda Dope-Slap EX!

ropedart · May 2002

On April 10,2002 canadiandriver.com wrote:

"The four passenger Element has two front buckets separated with ‘walk-through’ access between them, and two rear seats that appear to be a single bench, but are split 50/50. The front passenger seat includes a seatback that reverses so that the front passenger can face the rear seats when the vehicle is stopped."

I wrote in saying looking at the pictures I don't think so. They said it came from Honda Canada press release and would recheck it with Honda.

So today canadiandriver.com wrote back:

Honda Canada sent me this reply about the rear-facing front seat in the Element..

"The concept vehicle "Model X" had front seats that had the seatback flip
towards the front of the car to make a backwards facing seat. The Honda
Element prototype as shown at the New York auto show had more conventional
front seats that did not have this feature. The production version of the
Honda Element is not expected until early 2003, so we will have to wait to
see the "final version"."

Greg Wilson
Editor
CanadianDriver.com - "Canada's Online Auto Magazine"

There's hope.

varmint · May 2002

Thanks Ropedart. I have doubts about them making production, but it would be very cool.

ropedart · May 2002

I wasn't at the New York Auto show but Popular Mechanics magazine wrote that at the press conference for Honda Pilot and Element that there was huge crowd response to the Element. People were ignoring the Pilot. I am trying to gage the response to the Element in general. People would walk into my cube at work see the Element picture and say "What is that thing?" or "Boy is that ugly!" C&D and Motortrend think it is risky. Edmunds thinks it will be a hit.

ateixeira · May 2002

I went to NY and the Pilot was not being ignored, but the Element did seem to have more people around it while I was there.

But this may be because the Element is shocking to look at, while the Pilot is very conservative.

I'm sure the Pilot will sell more units, in fact I have no doubt they'll sell every one they can build.

Pineapples may look wild, but plain apples sell a whole lot better.

-juice

ropedart · May 2002

Autonews.com suggest that the Honda Stream may come in 2004. This 7 seven seater car would be a great addition to the Element. The Odyssey is too much van for my wife. I can see Honda bringing it in to compete with the Toyota Scion line of stuff. I think the C pillar needs work though-too much like a cartoon C.

varmint · May 2002

The Element attracts the attention of anyone walking by it. It doesn't matter if they are interested in buying one or not. You might be shopping for the S2000, but you'd have to poke your head inside an Element.

OTOH, the Pilot's appeal isn't in the styling. Only those folks interested in SUVs are going to bother with it.

I have doubts that the Stream's 7-seater configuration will meet US safety standards. Given the way that the first gen Ody was received, I don't see the Stream making a big impact on their marketing folks.

moonkat · May 2002

I thought the Element was the US version of the Stream...:-)
Roomy, utilitarian, with 106" wheelbase.

jim_loves_cars · May 2002

What Honda should bring over is the Civic 5-door. Now that's a good looking car and would compete well with the Focus SVT, Matrix, Protege5 and scion stuff. Of course it would have to have the Si engine...(dreaming...)

-jim

ateixeira · May 2002

Yeah, the Si is nice. but very small. Or maybe the competitors are just much bigger now?

I like the Stream, it's very space efficient.

-juice

diploid · May 2002

Yes - bring over that Civic 5-door! It would be real nice if they dropped in the RSX's base engine. Ford is rumored to drop a more powerful Zetec into its Focus lineup.

jfigueroa1 · May 2002

what about the 5 doors civic with the prelude eng?
200hp should be good.
what happen to that eng?
and why it is not use in the element or cv-r?

varmint · May 2002

Eww, smog!

The 2.2 was not a clean engine by today's standards. It was also a high revver with less low end torque. That torque is the stuff that is needed to get these heavier models moving from a standstill.

ateixeira · May 2002

Yeah, rumore has it Ford will go from 2.0l to 2.3l for the Focus. They have to drop that lame base engine, though. It's 2002, fer heaven's sake.

Still, their current level of quality control does not even come close to meeting my standards. A Focus ZTW wagon might have met our needs but I didn't even consider it.

Civics could use a little more displacement, and I hope Honda dots the Is and crosses the Ts a little better. CR had the new one at 10% more problems than average, after a lifetime of earning straight As.

CR-V was Honda's best student, though, so I bet the Element will score well.

-juice

diploid · May 2002

I just wonder how they're going to keep the Element's price at a starting line of 16K? Manual, windows that need to be cranked, and no A/C?

ateixeira · May 2002

My guess is that'll be 2WD and not have ABS, keyless, cruise, or a CD player. I do expect it'll have PW/PL, A/C, and AM/FM/cassette.

The base CR-V only comes in automatic, but maybe the Element will have a 5 speed, which is cheaper.

-juice

moonkat · May 2002

diploid:
Judging by the recent Pilot prices, Element $16K to 21K will be more like $16.9 for LX, and $22 for EX AWD....=}

varmint · May 2002

Ditto on the prices.

ropedart · May 2002

Like the CRV, we in Canada will not get the base model with 2WD. That's a shame since I consider the Honda 4WD lame. The front 2WD is good enough for me.

moonkat · May 2002

ropedart:
No problem bro..
I will gladly sponsor you here in the USofA to pay US$ for an AWD Element...=)

Jeff in muddyland

ateixeira · May 2002

Pilot's still a good value, though. $29k and change for an EX, add just leather and you're at about $30k. $775 for a 7/100 warranty, and you're still below the MSRP for an Explorer XLT 4x4.

-juice

moonkat · May 2002

juice:
I hope it's still a good value at EX-L MSRP of $30,520 plus $460 delivery = $30,980.

And where can I get 7/100 warranty for $775?

moonkat · May 2002

I was reading a Matrix XR review and wondering about Element rivals...

Apparantly called "crossover" vehicles: "meaning... part sedan, part station wagon and part sport-utility vehicle"

http://www.auto.com/reviews/matrix19_20020319.htm

diploid · May 2002

moonkat- I believe the 7/100 warranty is the optional extended warranty from Honda.

moonkat · May 2002

diploid:
From Honda it's more like $1200. $775 sounds like a bargain.

Honda Element

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