Honda Element

moonkat · July 2002

Yeah varmint,
Make mine the 180 hp motor with 220 lbf torque!-)

diploid · July 2002

I believe that's the diesel engine, correct?

chris777 · July 2002

I had a few things I was thinking about with the element and since their is little news lately I thought I'd throw this out.

One thing thats I've been thinking about is exterior colors. What do you folks think honda might offer as color options? The standard colors we see on the cr-v and pilot,

or do you think honda might possibly offer some more unusual color choices like the 2 concept model x colors, orange ( which I heard was a difficult color to make work on a car) or the 50's reminiscent light blue?

I personally liked both of the mod x concept colors and I'm still tossing around which color I'd pick if they went with more conventional choices as well

.
I like the light blue metallic offered on the Stook and I've seen it on a matrix as well, but I am a bit scared of a blue considering every blue car I've owned has been totaled. a luck thing I guess

I don't know I sort of like silver but with the revisions to the element I'm not sure I like the way it looks on the element.

speaking of which which revisions did you like, and or dislike on from the mod x to the element

I like the re designed interior I would have preferred a bench in front and all gear shifting coming from the dash like on the original model x except maybe placed a bit higher up so their would be a straight even dash with lots of leg room

and even though it definitely appears the element is now a strictly 4 seater with the redesigned fold up rear seats it looks to be quite useful I much more so than just removable seats would have been. or even the slide up offered on mod x.

I dislike the redesign of the tailgate and hatch
I understand the probable reasons for it (that model x tale gate was huge) I'm sure their were support issues

and the slide back roof was awesome
but again I'm sure their were safety and real world function issues
I don't like the stumpy clam back tailgate it might look better if honda would place body colored trim on the hatch to disguise its shortness as it is now it juts looks out of place with the rest of the vehicle especially when compared to pics of the model x rear end before the redesign

ateixeira · July 2002

I think Honda should make colors completely unconventional. Why? Because conservative folks will just buy a CR-V. They should go out of their way to attract a different buyer (younger, more cutting edge).

I'd hoped for 5 seats, but oh well.

-juice

moonkat · July 2002

Chris:
My biggest dissapointment was to learn that plastic body side cladding pieces would only be in black/charcoal. I thought the blue/silver combo was attractive, and that blue plastic would work with a few other paint colors like blue, yellow (fun), white. What is a "Stook" ?

For Model X to Element transition; some of us speculated that seats would not work, but hoped that Honda would provide some way to allow face-to-face seating. I would like to see seating (ata least belts) for 5 though this looks doubtful.

I knew the slide back rear roof section was going to be difficult to produce, and I am relieved that they modified it and are targeting 5-star crash test rating.

Finally, the rear hatch-tailgate is my favorite "improvement" over the Model X concept. I perceive tremendous flexibility in this two-piece hatch. Completely closed; gate closed only with hatch open - feel the breeze..!!!; hatch closed only with gate open like a pick-up to support long items..2x4x8s etc; and if the bed were wide enough ...4x8 sheets of plywd & sheetrock!!!!

If that opening were only 48" clear, Element would be a mini-pickup and phenomenally more utilitarian.........plus a more powerful motor...
180hp & 180lbf torque would be okay..!-)

varmint · July 2002

Moonkat - "Stook" is another spelling of S-2-K, or the S2000.

I wish the rear gate and moonroof still opened to create a large un-broken space. As it is, there is a roof support separating the two openings. That's my biggest complaint. I know that it must have been done for structural reasons, but that was one of the coolest parts about the Model X.

chris777 · July 2002

I think unconventional colors would be nice as long as they were tasteful,

I personally liked both model x colored myself and would have a hard time choosing between the 2.

I know on the silver I thought I wanted a silver car but I just don't like it on the element it might look better with the body side cladding but again since we don't know what it will even look like ill have to reserve judgment until I see a pic of the side cladding.

Also I looked at some better shots of the model x'es tail end and noticed my main problem was that when they redesigned it they cladded the tailgate instead of painting it,

and then they made the hatch out of a piece of body colored trim to compensate for the tailgate being shortened

also looks like they shrunk the rear bumper too

I just hope visibility out of the rear is better than the crv

I'm concerned with the side pillars being widened in the rear and I hope since the spare tire is in the bed that the rear window will be larger and have abetter view out back than the crv

I think safety is a good concern for honda to focus on, but I think prevention of being struck in the first place far outweighs having a 5 star crash rating and if you cant see out of the back, well.. just seems like they are more concerned with effects of an accident rather than actually attempting the prevention of one.

I mean suicide doors might be nice (I'm still out on that one) but my main interest in element is the truck bed and tailgate features that are reminiscent of a toyota 4 runner as well as the lack of a "prominent" center console.

this really does "appear to be a true "sport utility vehicle at least if you go by the definition of suv

and I'm with mooncat on a wide bed thats been my whole thing with the element a true utility vehicle and although on a care frame hopefully it will function enough like a true truck that it will serve my purposes

a truck with the potential capacity to seat 4 comfortably(though 5 or 6 would have almost convinced me to buy it without test driving it)

I don't know about the rear hatch I know their would be weight, power, and structural support problems with unibody, but

I kept imagining putting a fridge standing up into the recess of the model x'es rear end and hauling it home ,plus lawn chairs on that massive tailgate would have been cool

I'm really curious about the tailgate seat back and what that will end up being

ropedart · July 2002

Confirmed the little 7 passenger Honda Stream to be called Latitude will be here by the summer of 2003. The Odyssey got too big and expensive.
Only wish that VW would bring their 7 seaters here.

moonkat · July 2002

ropedart:
Latitude ehh?!.....coooool.

Can you provide references and/or more info?

Thanks ehh!

varmint · July 2002

" I think safety is a good concern for honda to focus on, but I think prevention of being struck in the first place far outweighs having a 5 star crash rating and if you cant see out of the back, well.. just seems like they are more concerned with effects of an accident rather than actually attempting the prevention of one."

I have to disagree with you on this one. While both types of safety are very important, I put more weight on passive. Active safety only works if the driver has skills, is paying attention, and if the situation is just right. On the other hand, effective crash safety works even with a monkey at the wheel.

Latitude? I kinda like the name. Will they bring over the seven seater with RT4WD?

ateixeira · July 2002

I disagree, but I don't let monkeys get behind the wheel of any of our cars. ;-)

Latitude would be interesting, as long as they give it a decent power/weight ratio. The original Odyssey/Oasis only needed a V6 to succeed, Honda never really gave it a chance.

Then again the new 4 bangers are more powerful, at least.

-juice

chris777 · July 2002

I agree my gripe is basically visibility on many of the suv's particularly the rear with the extra wide pillars that are placed in odd places and many rear windows that are small or blocked by stadium seating/headrest.

The original oddesey was ahead of its time if they weren't over priced or ragged out I'd love to have one.

If the could bring stream over as the latitude and get it here before summer 2003 I might hold out on it rather than element if it gets reasonable mpg otherwise ill buy element or a civic or a some used car until some manufacturer decides to make something interesting and useful

I'm sick of honda behaving like all of the other auto makers as of late and cowering down from trying to be a leader rather than a follower

I'd still rather see the step wagon with a modified exterior, wouldn't take much to do either. I liked the old toyota vans save having your legs amputated in a front collision

ateixeira · July 2002

You can't blame them. They followed with the new Odyssey and wait lists formed. Same with the Pilot now. They tend to be late to market, but then really nail it.

I'd love to see what they could do in a sport wagon.

-juice

chris777 · July 2002

is their any truth to this or is it a total hoax

I heard rumors of the stream back before element was officially announced

but I've seen nothing on latitude other than the post by ropedart

diploid · July 2002

I honestly don't think that small 3rd row would fly in the N.A. market. I'd rather have them bring over the 5-door, 5-passenger Civic hatch.

ateixeira · July 2002

AN had an article on the Honda Fit, that's a pretty cool looking wagon thingy. Apparently it's been a huge success in the home market.

BTW, the CR-V was named an IIHS Best Pick in offset crash tests, a major improvement over the previous generation. That bodes well for the Element.

-juice

diploid · July 2002

Speaking of the Fit wagon...what about a sedan?

http://motioncars.com/autobuzz/articles21/2003_honda_city.html

chris777 · July 2002

well I've wanted the 5 pass hatch since I first saw it but stream would have been more useful

element keeps growing on me in a dog thats so ugly it's cute sort of way ( still don't like the appearance of the backside )

I still wish they would make a hybrid element

the batteries on the civic could easily have fit into the engine compartment considering the small size of the electric motor honda used(or into the hollow parts of the body panels hint hint though safety might be an issue here)

speaking of which I wonder why they didn't use a larger I'm a to produce more hp other than possibly battery size

also anyone heard about those zero emission accord engines honda has supposedly developed?

ateixeira · July 2002

Nah, tall wagons are cool, tall sedans simply look dorky. Like the Echo, I bet that would look better as a wagon.

The Aerio, too. The SX is cute, the sedan is plain goofy looking IMO.

Is the Element the Pug of the auto world? A Boxer, maybe?

The Civic hybrid is a cool car and I hope it succeeds, but honestly they need to do better than a tax deduction. Like how 'bout a tax credit? A nice hybrid Element would cost $25 grand instead of $21 grand.

-juice

chris777 · July 2002

lee I wonder where they possibly came up with this from

ateixeira · July 2002

Look at cars from previous Tokyo Auto Shows and they all pretty much look the same - boxy and tall. Look at the bbX on the left margin of this page, there's one example.

-juice

vuefor2 · July 2002

There are some Element pictures posted on the Auto Week web page today. Says it will hit showrooms in December.

All I can say is brutal !! Honda should not make this vehicle.

rsholland · July 2002

I think it's great! My hat's off to Honda for having the courage to produce it.

The AutoWeek article also showed a picture with two Elements, and the tires looked a tad smaller than those found on the show car. Honda did the same thing with the Pilot. The show car had larger tires than the final production version.

Also in the AutoWeek article, it mentioned, besides being available in both FWD and AWD, that it would be available with three trannys: 5-speed manual, 4-speed automatic, and a 5-speed automatic. I bet we also see the 5-speed automatic in future CRVs!

Bob

paisan · July 2002

I love it personally. It's got nice boxy features that make it UTILITARIAN!

And I absolutely can't stand most Hondas!

-mike

diploid · July 2002

Awright, easy there Mr. Isuzu.

I bet the 5-speed automatic will be the 21K model. Too bad I already spent my 21K on a RAV4.

varmint · July 2002

It's a van with character. How many of those are on the market? The Microbus (coming) and the Aztek (going) are the only two I can think of.

There are plenty of folks out there who want the utility of a van, but not the stigma of a mommymobile. Right now, their only choice is a SUV or crossover SUV. Both are relatively expensive. The Element fills a niche. A small niche, but a niche nonetheless.

tekwarrior · July 2002

Where is the Aztek going? I've already seen an 03' and the plant's contract was renewed until 2005. Sales aren't as bad as people are saying, especially in foreign countries.

diploid · July 2002

Honda's target is the so-called Y-generation. I can picture young couples who can't afford a minivan but need the utility shopping this vehicle, also.

shellymeister2 · July 2002

In this week's Autoweek there are 2 great shots of the actual production Elements snapped near the East Liberty Ohio Honda plant. Interestingly, the Element looks exactly like the prototypes we've been seeing for a while except for the color of the plastic body panels which are grey.

rsholland · July 2002

The tires are a tad smaller than the show models, just like what they did with the Pilot.

Bob

dindak · July 2002

Brutal. Clearly this is Honda's version of the Aztek. Strange looking niche vehicle for people who want something really different. All the import people that like Aztek but won't buy GM will probably but this thing, further littering the roads with oddmobiles.

diploid · July 2002

The design is very un-American. Take a look at Nissan's Yanya concept and the upcoming SCION bbx (right up there in the left hand corner in the "Future Vehicles" thumbnail) and you can see Honda is not the only one who values function over form.

Here is Ford's Transit Connect from Germany:

http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_039867

The Aztek really had a chance to win the youth market, but for some reason GM decided to slope the rear and broke up the headlights. The sloping of the rear took away the utility of the car while the broken up fascia made the car look very incoherent. Add in Pontiac's ugly trademark side molding and you've got one poorly executed design. All the reviews rave about the Aztek's interior, though...clearly the designers were on the right track until they got to the exterior. Had it looked a little more like a taller, boxier Pontiac Vibe without the cladding, the Aztek might've seized a niche in the youth market.

ropedart · July 2002

That production grey cladding is neither here nor there. IMO it is too light. I can't think of any good colour to go with other than a silver body. Silver is soooo vanilla these days. The dark blue cladding was OK but BLACK would have been a better choice. Wasn't this suppose to be a guy thing?
I guess I will have to wait for the Latitude/Stream. The present Stream is at the end of its production cycle. I hope Mag-X will have spy photos soon.

varmint · July 2002

The Stream is at the end of it's production cycle? I thought they just redesigned it back in 2000. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was just redone along with the addition of the i-VTEC 2.0. It was the first Honda to get the technology.

chris777 · July 2002

"a picture with two Elements, and the tires looked a tad smaller than those found on the show car."
I agree I'm no expert at tire sizes but I think they were at least 17" or 18'

"-speed manual, 4-speed automatic, and a 5-speed automatic"
why bother with 5 speed I wonder why they don't go ahead and throw on a cvt?

"There are plenty of folks out there who want the utility of a van, but not the stigma of a mommymobile." if I really cared about stigma I wouldn't be driving an 86 civic hatch back getting laughed at by ford explorer drivers nor would I even consider the element lol

Element looks exactly like the prototypes we've been seeing for a while except for the color of the plastic body panels which are gray. "
like I said about the college hills accessory preview maby I'm off but you usually don't see accessories that aren't actually planned for production with part numbers included unless they are probably legit. (08P48-SCV-100A Body Side Trim - Moonlight Gray)I just hope this cladding is as durable as that that was on folder Hondas

I was dissapointed in the standard colors of red and blue as well

ropedart where did you get your info about latitude/stream?

chris777 · July 2002

its really beginning to appear that this forum is the place to get news about the element neither tov or element .org have a peep

ropedart · July 2002

I got it from a guy on the net who predicted the production of the Model X way before anyone had any idea, even Mag-X.
I mean the Stream has to be reworked IMO for the NA market. Sales are falling in Japan because of Scion, Jazz, Fit stuff hitting the market.
The next wave in Japan is luxury vans. Imagine a Super Luxury Stretch Odyssey.
Imagine Honda Luxury RVs for the retiring Boomer. Imagine a Honda unibody RV with 50mpg.
Well after Honda takes the truck market.

odman · July 2002

I hope ropedart is right about the Latitude/Stream. I'm looking for something as a second car in addition to our '98 Odyssey. I want something that is tall (I'm 6'5") but not a big van/SUV. I was looking at the Vibe/Matrix but a Stream would be perfect -- a zippy, nimble, tall-wagon that does not try to impose a fashion statement.

However, I suspect that with the Element and the CR-V, Honda will conclude that it has the "small-box" category covered and won't see much opportunity for additional sales for the Stream to make it worth the hassle of safety/environmental certification. The Axxess, the Eagle Summit, and the Odyssey/Oasis have all tried this path before, and none did well because they were perceived as "small" minivans (and not cheaper than big ones, not tall wagons. The PT Cruiser shows us that the basic packaging concept has appeal, but that the wrapper has to look good for it to sell.

Let's hope it comes.

dindak · July 2002

PT Cruiser is a beautiful vehicle. Element could have been something like that and it would have sold like hotcakes. The Element will have very limited appeal. I'd take the CR-V over it any day.

chris777 · July 2002

man its scary how much color affects the appearance of the element.

like I've told several people I kinda liked the front end but I've been looking at those photos of red and blue and boy is the back ugly . no horrible as a friend put it when I showed him.
I see I'm not the only fan of the micro/van
i had an 87 plymouth colt vista which mitsubishi later refined into the eagle summit and it was the most functional (but least reliable) vehicle I've ever owned and i agree with odman if someone would put out an econobox microvan, price it right, and market its utility it might sell i don't know i may still get an element if its functionality is what its hyped to be

varmint · July 2002

Chris - Over in the UK, they call cars like the Vista, Stream, and Summit "lifestyle" vehicles. US buyers won't touch them because of their look. But many people feel that the vehicles like the RAV4, CR-V, Escape, etc. are the US version of the same design.

ateixeira · July 2002

Aztec sales are poor given the number of Pontiac dealers and the sizeable advertising push. Remember, they were the main sponsor for the hugely successful Survivor. For reference, I believe the Rendezvous outsells it, and at a higher price.

A 5 speed auto sounds good, perhaps they could relax the gearing a little to reduce noise.

I think the show car had 17s. It's a shame if all they offer are 15s.

-juice

moonkat · July 2002

chris777:
Perceptive again.
It's amazing how biased I am towards the original Element silver with blue panels. The red/orange paint with charcoal plastic turns me off. The Blue I warmed up to.

While servicing my Ody this morning, I got to study the CR-V (w/o salespeople), and the S2K (but that's another story & decade). The CR-V has front and rear bumper panels that blend smoothly with the paint metal panels. The CR-V EX was Black plastic on Black painted surfaces. The surfaces blended together in rounded shapes...very handsome; and I'm not a fan of black finishes.

The production Element photos show a glossy grey plastic with squared-off plastic and metal surfaces but-jointed together. I suspect the CR-V finishes are higher quality. The CR-V black plastic had a fine texture to it unlike the production Element photos. I now understand folks desire for the black trimmed vehicles.

Varmint:
While there I took my tape measure to the hatch opening, and measured 44" clear easily. I could see Honda pushing it to clear 48"!

And.....bring on the 5-spd auto (likely from the 03 Accord)! No slower than an 02 CR-V in spite of the 200lb weight gain.

You win some, you lose some.....

chris777 · July 2002

it would be a toughie between the orange and the 50's sky blue or whatever it was I liked them both I'd have to see them in person

I also liked the white roof reminiscent of the mini
man I wish they had kept the exterior the same from model x

I guess red and blue have provided a glimpse of the probably standard colors we will be offered

it's almost enough that if I could get a crv for around 17500 i might well consider it over element

it baffles me that Honda wants to rock the boat going so far as this radical design and then using color choices that really set off the uglyness of the vehicle

am I the only one who actually thinks the element looked better in pictures than it did in person?
(how unusual is that? well there is the matrix lol)

I don't like how those colored set off the back end I'm thinking about just either breaking down and buying either a used car or maby a civic and waiting a few years for the marked to bring something i like

I'd get a matrix if I could get one comparatively equipped to an lx civic for around no more than 500 more than i could buy a civic for

but I have waited this long and it will soon be 5 months ish away maby I can hold out since I'm mostly interested in the interior anyway

I've heard 3 different dates from dealers now as well anyone else getting stuff like that?
i heard Dec then thanksgiving
then October?

chris777 · July 2002

oopse I forgot

did you actually get close enough to measure the elements hatch opening moonkat?

moonkat · July 2002

chris777:

I've never been up close to an Elemement, but I have been speculating on what I would like to see offered in the Element.

You know I am a big fan of "48" cargo bed opening". That's got to be part of the definition of "pick-up truck" & "functional". And I believe it can be done in a CR-V/Element width vehicle.

Bing on the Hondasuv.com CR-V site has the best personal account of the Element though none I have read includes measurements:

http://www.hondasuv.com/element/viewtopic.php?t=9

Best info on release date is Dec from Honda. This is part of Honda quarterly roll-outs of March-Civic IMA; June-Pilot; Sep-03Accord;Dec-Element. Not sure where 03 MDX and others fit in.

ateixeira · July 2002

Saw the pics in Autoweek. I liked the blue cladding better. Maybe it was the Silver/Blue combination, but it lost some of its spunky design with the more sedate trim color.

-juice

ropedart · July 2002

I think all the supply contracts are done by this time. So have to wait another few years to see what happens. I would like to see the CVT trans in it. Do something with the seats or there is little point to the doors. If you could not move or remove the passenger seat your guests will have to do a "door dance" to get in when parked tight with other cars. Get more power or lose weight. Change the colors of course.

varmint · July 2002

Current CVT designs will probably have a hard time handling the torque of the 2.4L. I doubt you'll see it in anything larger than Civic for quite some time.

rsholland · July 2002

The new Audi A4 (FWD, w/3.0 V6) has a CVT that can handle well over 200 horsepower.

Bob

Honda Element

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